The fact is that most people don't need HD-DVD or BluRay at the moment. Sure some creative professionals would like to be able to have a built in drive, but their needs can be easily fulfilled with a third party add on. Apple is trying to position itself as the computer of the people, not just creative professionals like it was during the "dark years". I'd say that as soon as the market declares a winner, or a dual format drive arrives, Apple will look to include it; because at that point the price of the drive itself would allow Apple to place it in the iMacs and Macbooks.
Lets also not forget that most people still use a standard def. CRT TV... the HD revolution is more slow evolution. CD rom drives first appeared in the 80s, but they didn't start taking off till the 90s. Give it time folks..
So you think that a drive costing at least $500 more than a DL DVD drive will be in the next iMac? And you think that the AppleTV--which can't access the DVD drive of current Macs despite MPEG-2's comparatively low bitrate--will be able to access the HD media on a Blu-ray drive?
I just don't see that happening.
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU , why a iMac that cost $1999 like the 24" can't come with it, one more thing dont think apple TV is goin to stay that way long, just think for a sec, why did the put so much power to the unit that it can be a computer itself, all i know is that when the new line comes out apple always adds something that leaves everyone with their mouth open, and the open really big thing will be blu ray what more can the add to the imac ? because i dont see that its missing anything else, and dont say LED screen because although it will be included everyone knows it already
There's also another reason, to make the 15" macbook pro as thin as possible, they went with a 9.5mm super slim drive (used on ultraportables) instead of the standard 12.7mm slim drive. There's not a super slim BR burner out there let alone a slot loading one.
The Panasonic UJ-215 is a slot-loading Blu-Ray burner but it's 12.7mm. Apple was very foolish to make the MacBook Pro "unreasonably thin" as it eliminates most of the optical drives available. They could easily offer a Blu-Ray drive as a BTO option in the Mac Pro though. The only choice currently is two identical DVD burners.
So I'm confused. I thought Final Cut has it already? Or did you mean to say Express? (if that doesn't have it).
-=|Mgkwho
its amazing that with all the bracketing you did to make your point, you actually missed out the word LATTER which i believe was referring to HD-DVD as opposed to the former being Blu-ray... re-reading it might help?
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU , why a iMac that cost $1999 like the 24" can't come with it, one more thing dont think apple TV is goin to stay that way long, just think for a sec, why did the put so much power to the unit that it can be a computer itself, all i know is that when the new line comes out apple always adds something that leaves everyone with their mouth open, and the open really big thing will be blu ray what more can the add to the imac ? because i dont see that its missing anything else, and dont say LED screen because although it will be included everyone knows it already
The PS3 is sold at a considerable loss. It's my opinion that Sony is doing this not to compete with the XBOX360 and Wii marketshare, but to guarantee that Blu-ray is the next optical standard. And it's working.
As for my wild specualtion on the bare miinimum upgrade price for an Apple branded Blu-ray drive, it is based on some simple research I did on Froogle: Blu-ray + SATA.
The AppleTV clearly is intended for loftier goals than currently presented, but I'd put my money on it being able to stream 720p movie rentals directly from the iTunes Store before it gets Blu-ray support. Can't imagine that Apple would ignore supporting the ubiquitous DVD players that are in every computer just to jump right to supporting a HD optical format that its far from being common, is excessively overpriced, and would definitely tax the AppleTV beyond its intended limits (the AppleTV doesn't support 1080p for a reason).
The fact is that most people don't need HD-DVD or BluRay at the moment.
Don't need? I would say we need it since the prehistoric times. The question is who and when will deliver the goods. The situation right now is quite fluid, to not say gaseous.
I believe that if Apple thought either the Blu-Ray or HD-DVD platform were going to be the next medium of choice, a higher priced version of the Mac Pro would be shipping with a drive capable of one of these standards right now.
They have not done this... Why? The Apple TV is the next generation of living-room fun. And while the market is still fairly bare, as far as competitive systems are concerned, it will only a matter of months, if not weeks, before the big players release a version of their own.
I don't know about you but if I can sit on my couch, click a button and have the newest coolest HD flick streaming to my TV right now, then why would I goto BlockBuster to wait in line and trudge through the snow just to rent a movie?
Granted, there will be a replacement to DVD... the days of Creative Suite fitting on one DVD are soon to be gone I'm sure, but for now, I don't think anyone feels like Blu-Ray or HD-DVD are going to be it.
I don't know about you but if I can sit on my couch, click a button and have the newest coolest HD flick streaming to my TV right now, then why would I goto BlockBuster to wait in line and trudge through the snow just to rent a movie?
Granted, there will be a replacement to DVD... the days of Creative Suite fitting on one DVD are soon to be gone I'm sure, but for now, I don't think anyone feels like Blu-Ray or HD-DVD are going to be it.
Cheers,
bcode
1280x720p at 5Mbps doesn't do much for me. Whoops. Apple doesn't even offer that through iTMS yet. No reason why Blu-Ray won't be a successful replacement for DVD once prices for hardware and media come down. I've had too many hard drives die on me. I'm using a DriveDock to recover the data as we speak.
Apple -is- behind. They still include an optical drive in laptops. Drives of any kind are going the way of the floppy. Remember those?
If you need an optical drive, Blu-Ray or whatnot, there are several USB and Firewire models available.
If you need one built in to your laptop because you need a clean desk, well, then you can get one of these 3rd party upgrades. I'd imagine that very few would be interested in paying the money for such a drive.
There are certain requirements from the studios for computers that play HD content off bought optical disks. The entire pathway from the disk to the screen has to been encrypted, including checking hundreds of times per second that the video bus is not being tapped by some hacker with wires.
To implement these kinds of requirements will make OS X loaded with DRM at the deepest levels.
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU , why a iMac that cost $1999 like the 24" can't come with it, one more thing dont think apple TV is goin to stay that way long, just think for a sec, why did the put so much power to the unit that it can be a computer itself, all i know is that when the new line comes out apple always adds something that leaves everyone with their mouth open, and the open really big thing will be blu ray what more can the add to the imac ? because i dont see that its missing anything else, and dont say LED screen because although it will be included everyone knows it already
The difference is that the PS3 is actually made for over $900, and sold at a loss. Sony fully expects to make all of their money in the PS3 division selling only games. Both Apple and Sony price their computers for profit because there isn't much money to be made in Software for them. All of the software Apple makes is massively undercut to be used as a selling point for their hardware.
Further, the drive built into the PS3 is very VERY basic. It's the most basic of basic of all the Blu-ray players. So yeah, it's not going to have a whole lot of features, and it will only read BD-ROM, and the DVD/CD formats it supports, which isn't the same as a BD-RW, which is far more useful, but there isn't a legitimate need for it in a game console.
who cares about Blu-Ray discs, they are EXPENSIVE, and if you install the drive, its A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE. MAC is smart, we don't have time or money to waste on these things. Its all about HD-DVD. And most people download movies that are ripped from warez sites and stuff anyways so it really doesn't matter.
Was Apple the first to put CD players in computers? I don't think they were, but what they were first to do was to remove old hat tech, like the 3.5" floppy drive and replace it with only a CD-RW drive.
The first iMacs, the ones that dropped the floppy, only had CD-ROM drives. It wasn't until a couple years later that a CD writer was even offered with those machines, IIRC, a writer wasn't standard until the G5 iMac. They didn't have any included built-in means of recording removable media either. It was odd to have an all-in-one solution that required external, separately purchased products to do any media writing. This was well before a USB flash drive was even heard of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball
Apple is not lagging behind. It's too early for any professional to make a decision about Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD without the potential for loosing a lot of money. And Apple doesn't want to be party of the fray.
Obviously, some professionals have been making that investment already, with the numerous BR and HDVD titles that are available and selling now. Those discs didn't just make themselves. I'm pretty sure that the cost of the hardware is factored into the job bid. Stuff like that depreciates quickly either way, but that should be factored into the price of doing the work, and thus not really a loss but a gain for being able to take on a lucrative project.
The problem is that Apple likes to pretend that it's professional editing suite is leading-edge but they fail to properly support either leading-edge format. Right now, Apple-using pros don't have any means to tap that growing market because their software won't do proper BR/HDVD authoring, and the hardware options are scant. Contrast this when in Jan 2005, their consumer software can capture and edit HD, but even now, their pro software and hardware doesn't offer recording or distribution capabilities for that captured and edited HD.
Apple -is- behind. They still include an optical drive in laptops. Drives of any kind are going the way of the floppy. Remember those?
If you need an optical drive, Blu-Ray or whatnot, there are several USB and Firewire models available.
If you need one built in to your laptop because you need a clean desk, well, then you can get one of these 3rd party upgrades. I'd imagine that very few would be interested in paying the money for such a drive.
Funny, last time I checked, you needed an optical drive for software. Flash drives are too expensive to replace optical discs and they can't be used if you want to play a home movie on the T.V. Yes, some Ultraportables do not have a optical drive, but are not in any way typical of the computer market as whole. Sometimes reality gets in the way of how it should be.
Apple is clearly supporting Blu-ray as they are on the board. As I recall, commercial HD-DVD discs use both H.264 and VC-1 (Microsoft's codec) while Blu-ray only uses the former.
Funny, last time I checked, you needed an optical drive for software. Flash drives are too expensive to replace optical discs and they can't be used if you want to play a home movie on the T.V. Yes, some Ultraportables do not have a optical drive, but are not in any way typical of the computer market as whole. Sometimes reality gets in the way of how it should be.
Not strictly true. I'd say about 80% of the software I use is downloaded and installed, not from a CD/DVD. However, unless Apple sticks some kind of bootable ROM environment where you can get online to download the OS, it'd be very annoying not having a CD/DVD drive.
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU...
...and looses sony 250-300 dollars with each sale.
Not strictly true. I'd say about 80% of the software I use is downloaded and installed, not from a CD/DVD. However, unless Apple sticks some kind of bootable ROM environment where you can get online to download the OS, it'd be very annoying not having a CD/DVD drive.
You're right, in fact the optical drive can easily become obsolete within 10 years if everything switches to downloads. Personally I don't see the need in one for sub notebooks if they use a dock. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm still after a Macbook Something? with no moving parts built into it, which is no doubt wishful thinking on my part...
The first iMacs, the ones that dropped the floppy, only had CD-ROM drives. It wasn't until a couple years later that a CD writer was even offered with those machines, IIRC, a writer wasn't standard until the G5 iMac. They didn't have any included built-in means of recording removable media either. It was odd to have an all-in-one solution that required external, separately purchased products to do any media writing. This was well before a USB flash drive was even heard of.
Obviously, some professionals have been making that investment already, with the numerous BR and HDVD titles that are available and selling now. Those discs didn't just make themselves. I'm pretty sure that the cost of the hardware is factored into the job bid. Stuff like that depreciates quickly either way, but that should be factored into the price of doing the work, and thus not really a loss but a gain for being able to take on a lucrative project.
The problem is that Apple likes to pretend that it's professional editing suite is leading-edge but they fail to properly support either leading-edge format. Right now, Apple-using pros don't have any means to tap that growing market because their software won't do proper BR/HDVD authoring, and the hardware options are scant. Contrast this when in Jan 2005, their consumer software can capture and edit HD, but even now, their pro software and hardware doesn't offer recording or distribution capabilities for that captured and edited HD.
The Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies are not recorded on computers, but instead are sent to a manufacturer that "presses" them. The authoring software is all that is needed by professionals. Only us amateurs need the burner, and I expect them as a BTO shortly.
Comments
Lets also not forget that most people still use a standard def. CRT TV... the HD revolution is more slow evolution. CD rom drives first appeared in the 80s, but they didn't start taking off till the 90s. Give it time folks..
So you think that a drive costing at least $500 more than a DL DVD drive will be in the next iMac? And you think that the AppleTV--which can't access the DVD drive of current Macs despite MPEG-2's comparatively low bitrate--will be able to access the HD media on a Blu-ray drive?
I just don't see that happening.
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU , why a iMac that cost $1999 like the 24" can't come with it, one more thing dont think apple TV is goin to stay that way long, just think for a sec, why did the put so much power to the unit that it can be a computer itself, all i know is that when the new line comes out apple always adds something that leaves everyone with their mouth open, and the open really big thing will be blu ray what more can the add to the imac ? because i dont see that its missing anything else, and dont say LED screen because although it will be included everyone knows it already
There's also another reason, to make the 15" macbook pro as thin as possible, they went with a 9.5mm super slim drive (used on ultraportables) instead of the standard 12.7mm slim drive. There's not a super slim BR burner out there let alone a slot loading one.
The Panasonic UJ-215 is a slot-loading Blu-Ray burner but it's 12.7mm. Apple was very foolish to make the MacBook Pro "unreasonably thin" as it eliminates most of the optical drives available. They could easily offer a Blu-Ray drive as a BTO option in the Mac Pro though. The only choice currently is two identical DVD burners.
But you said above that
So I'm confused. I thought Final Cut has it already? Or did you mean to say Express? (if that doesn't have it).
-=|Mgkwho
its amazing that with all the bracketing you did to make your point, you actually missed out the word LATTER which i believe was referring to HD-DVD as opposed to the former being Blu-ray... re-reading it might help?
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU , why a iMac that cost $1999 like the 24" can't come with it, one more thing dont think apple TV is goin to stay that way long, just think for a sec, why did the put so much power to the unit that it can be a computer itself, all i know is that when the new line comes out apple always adds something that leaves everyone with their mouth open, and the open really big thing will be blu ray what more can the add to the imac ? because i dont see that its missing anything else, and dont say LED screen because although it will be included everyone knows it already
The PS3 is sold at a considerable loss. It's my opinion that Sony is doing this not to compete with the XBOX360 and Wii marketshare, but to guarantee that Blu-ray is the next optical standard. And it's working.
As for my wild specualtion on the bare miinimum upgrade price for an Apple branded Blu-ray drive, it is based on some simple research I did on Froogle: Blu-ray + SATA.
The AppleTV clearly is intended for loftier goals than currently presented, but I'd put my money on it being able to stream 720p movie rentals directly from the iTunes Store before it gets Blu-ray support. Can't imagine that Apple would ignore supporting the ubiquitous DVD players that are in every computer just to jump right to supporting a HD optical format that its far from being common, is excessively overpriced, and would definitely tax the AppleTV beyond its intended limits (the AppleTV doesn't support 1080p for a reason).
The fact is that most people don't need HD-DVD or BluRay at the moment.
Don't need? I would say we need it since the prehistoric times.
I believe that if Apple thought either the Blu-Ray or HD-DVD platform were going to be the next medium of choice, a higher priced version of the Mac Pro would be shipping with a drive capable of one of these standards right now.
They have not done this... Why? The Apple TV is the next generation of living-room fun. And while the market is still fairly bare, as far as competitive systems are concerned, it will only a matter of months, if not weeks, before the big players release a version of their own.
I don't know about you but if I can sit on my couch, click a button and have the newest coolest HD flick streaming to my TV right now, then why would I goto BlockBuster to wait in line and trudge through the snow just to rent a movie?
Granted, there will be a replacement to DVD... the days of Creative Suite fitting on one DVD are soon to be gone I'm sure, but for now, I don't think anyone feels like Blu-Ray or HD-DVD are going to be it.
Cheers,
bcode
I don't know about you but if I can sit on my couch, click a button and have the newest coolest HD flick streaming to my TV right now, then why would I goto BlockBuster to wait in line and trudge through the snow just to rent a movie?
Granted, there will be a replacement to DVD... the days of Creative Suite fitting on one DVD are soon to be gone I'm sure, but for now, I don't think anyone feels like Blu-Ray or HD-DVD are going to be it.
Cheers,
bcode
1280x720p at 5Mbps doesn't do much for me. Whoops. Apple doesn't even offer that through iTMS yet. No reason why Blu-Ray won't be a successful replacement for DVD once prices for hardware and media come down. I've had too many hard drives die on me. I'm using a DriveDock to recover the data as we speak.
If you need an optical drive, Blu-Ray or whatnot, there are several USB and Firewire models available.
If you need one built in to your laptop because you need a clean desk, well, then you can get one of these 3rd party upgrades. I'd imagine that very few would be interested in paying the money for such a drive.
Can you clarify that for me?
There are certain requirements from the studios for computers that play HD content off bought optical disks. The entire pathway from the disk to the screen has to been encrypted, including checking hundreds of times per second that the video bus is not being tapped by some hacker with wires.
To implement these kinds of requirements will make OS X loaded with DRM at the deepest levels.
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU , why a iMac that cost $1999 like the 24" can't come with it, one more thing dont think apple TV is goin to stay that way long, just think for a sec, why did the put so much power to the unit that it can be a computer itself, all i know is that when the new line comes out apple always adds something that leaves everyone with their mouth open, and the open really big thing will be blu ray what more can the add to the imac ? because i dont see that its missing anything else, and dont say LED screen because although it will be included everyone knows it already
The difference is that the PS3 is actually made for over $900, and sold at a loss. Sony fully expects to make all of their money in the PS3 division selling only games. Both Apple and Sony price their computers for profit because there isn't much money to be made in Software for them. All of the software Apple makes is massively undercut to be used as a selling point for their hardware.
Further, the drive built into the PS3 is very VERY basic. It's the most basic of basic of all the Blu-ray players. So yeah, it's not going to have a whole lot of features, and it will only read BD-ROM, and the DVD/CD formats it supports, which isn't the same as a BD-RW, which is far more useful, but there isn't a legitimate need for it in a game console.
Sebastian
Was Apple the first to put CD players in computers? I don't think they were, but what they were first to do was to remove old hat tech, like the 3.5" floppy drive and replace it with only a CD-RW drive.
The first iMacs, the ones that dropped the floppy, only had CD-ROM drives. It wasn't until a couple years later that a CD writer was even offered with those machines, IIRC, a writer wasn't standard until the G5 iMac. They didn't have any included built-in means of recording removable media either. It was odd to have an all-in-one solution that required external, separately purchased products to do any media writing. This was well before a USB flash drive was even heard of.
Apple is not lagging behind. It's too early for any professional to make a decision about Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD without the potential for loosing a lot of money. And Apple doesn't want to be party of the fray.
Obviously, some professionals have been making that investment already, with the numerous BR and HDVD titles that are available and selling now. Those discs didn't just make themselves. I'm pretty sure that the cost of the hardware is factored into the job bid. Stuff like that depreciates quickly either way, but that should be factored into the price of doing the work, and thus not really a loss but a gain for being able to take on a lucrative project.
The problem is that Apple likes to pretend that it's professional editing suite is leading-edge but they fail to properly support either leading-edge format. Right now, Apple-using pros don't have any means to tap that growing market because their software won't do proper BR/HDVD authoring, and the hardware options are scant. Contrast this when in Jan 2005, their consumer software can capture and edit HD, but even now, their pro software and hardware doesn't offer recording or distribution capabilities for that captured and edited HD.
Apple -is- behind. They still include an optical drive in laptops. Drives of any kind are going the way of the floppy. Remember those?
If you need an optical drive, Blu-Ray or whatnot, there are several USB and Firewire models available.
If you need one built in to your laptop because you need a clean desk, well, then you can get one of these 3rd party upgrades. I'd imagine that very few would be interested in paying the money for such a drive.
Funny, last time I checked, you needed an optical drive for software. Flash drives are too expensive to replace optical discs and they can't be used if you want to play a home movie on the T.V. Yes, some Ultraportables do not have a optical drive, but are not in any way typical of the computer market as whole. Sometimes reality gets in the way of how it should be.
Apple is clearly supporting Blu-ray as they are on the board. As I recall, commercial HD-DVD discs use both H.264 and VC-1 (Microsoft's codec) while Blu-ray only uses the former.
Both can use MPEG-2, MPEG-4 (h.264) and VC-1
Funny, last time I checked, you needed an optical drive for software. Flash drives are too expensive to replace optical discs and they can't be used if you want to play a home movie on the T.V. Yes, some Ultraportables do not have a optical drive, but are not in any way typical of the computer market as whole. Sometimes reality gets in the way of how it should be.
Not strictly true. I'd say about 80% of the software I use is downloaded and installed, not from a CD/DVD. However, unless Apple sticks some kind of bootable ROM environment where you can get online to download the OS, it'd be very annoying not having a CD/DVD drive.
who the heck said that the drive cost $500, a regular ps3 which cost $499 comes with it not to mention it also comes with a hardrive and a state of the art CPU...
...and looses sony 250-300 dollars with each sale.
Not strictly true. I'd say about 80% of the software I use is downloaded and installed, not from a CD/DVD. However, unless Apple sticks some kind of bootable ROM environment where you can get online to download the OS, it'd be very annoying not having a CD/DVD drive.
You're right, in fact the optical drive can easily become obsolete within 10 years if everything switches to downloads. Personally I don't see the need in one for sub notebooks if they use a dock. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm still after a Macbook Something? with no moving parts built into it, which is no doubt wishful thinking on my part...
Sebastian
The first iMacs, the ones that dropped the floppy, only had CD-ROM drives. It wasn't until a couple years later that a CD writer was even offered with those machines, IIRC, a writer wasn't standard until the G5 iMac. They didn't have any included built-in means of recording removable media either. It was odd to have an all-in-one solution that required external, separately purchased products to do any media writing. This was well before a USB flash drive was even heard of.
Obviously, some professionals have been making that investment already, with the numerous BR and HDVD titles that are available and selling now. Those discs didn't just make themselves. I'm pretty sure that the cost of the hardware is factored into the job bid. Stuff like that depreciates quickly either way, but that should be factored into the price of doing the work, and thus not really a loss but a gain for being able to take on a lucrative project.
The problem is that Apple likes to pretend that it's professional editing suite is leading-edge but they fail to properly support either leading-edge format. Right now, Apple-using pros don't have any means to tap that growing market because their software won't do proper BR/HDVD authoring, and the hardware options are scant. Contrast this when in Jan 2005, their consumer software can capture and edit HD, but even now, their pro software and hardware doesn't offer recording or distribution capabilities for that captured and edited HD.
The Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies are not recorded on computers, but instead are sent to a manufacturer that "presses" them. The authoring software is all that is needed by professionals. Only us amateurs need the burner, and I expect them as a BTO shortly.