I know the angle that "Artists are starving because of the lyrics being posted online" is totally absurd.
Yes I'm not in support of anyone gaining any copyright protection for lyrics so long as the person delivering the lyrics is not profiting from them. Thus if I wrote a song and my lyrics ended up on someones page and after perusing that page I notice a lot of advertising and pop-ups I would then have a case because my content is fueling their profitability from advertising. This way lyric sites would have to deliver them sans annoying adverstising or be shut down. That protects the artist and protects consumers.
As long as people aren't selling your lyrics they aren't damaging your livelyhood. However there "is" a moneytrail with some of these sites that should be looked at.
I wonder, if I started up a website with high quality images of the cd inserts, (digital booklets) for all sorts of albums and had ads on the site and made money with it, would that be against copyright too? If I had the resources to get that content, it would be a service to those who need it for their albums.
I believe that contracts Apple has with the labels is ending/renewing at the end of the month. Perhaps Apple negotiated lyrics in the new contracts. Maybe we'll see this change next week.
It's about time these dicknecks figured this one out. Lyrics scrolling on my iPod screen as I listen to a song. Wow, what a novel idea!
And I'm sure Microsoft will come out with a wireless version, where you can "beam" your lyrics to a group of strangers on the subway. All the strangers hook up and have a party at one of the Zune owner's flat. End of commercial and dream.
Why? It would be one thing if these sites were selling the lyrics for profits or claiming that they were theirs, but to just post lyrics. If someone wants a song's lyrics, they can just listen to the song enough times to get them all. Until I read this article, I didn't even consider the concept that it was illegal to post lyrics.
Regardless, Gracenote as the gatekeeper to "legal" lyrics scares me. Their database for albums is riddled with inaccurate garbage, so can it really be expected that their lyrics will be any better? As an example, back in the Napster days, I downloaded a song called "Ponytail Girl" that claimed to be by Depeche Mode. I went to the Gracenote website and looked the song and sure enough it was listed as being off a version of the "Exciter" album. Problem is the song is by a one-man band called Color Theory, not Depeche Mode, not even an unreleased DM song. It was however on a DM tribute album by Color Theory (and the song can be freely downloaded from Amazon.com). Or perhaps less esoterically, all the songs and albums iTunes has gotten wrong when it pulled the information from the Gracenote DB. According to Gracenote, both discs of Rush's Chronicles 2-CD set are the same. Or the Scorpions' song "Stone in My Shoe" which Gracenote tagged as the nonsensical "Stone in My Show." I'm more trusting of a random website for accurate lyrics then Gracenote.
On the first point, I don't agree with you. I look forward to downloading lyrics from Dashboard Widgets, as my hearing has never been very good. Although I can hear most words in a lot of conversations, quite often I can't, and with songs it's worse. I can usually hear the music, but can't make the words out, so the lyrics are useful to me. I know that older people also have the same problem with their hearing, so it can be useful for them too.
However, I've tried listening to songs to get the lyrics, but all too often a word/s is garbled and it takes forever to decipher.
I agree with you regards Gracenote though. Like you I find their database is often hopelessly innaccurate, and I would be very annoyed if we have to pay for this service separately and find we download their errors. I don't download songs from iTunes, (Apple charges more in the UK than in the States) just rip from CD's, and Gracenote automatically downloads the info for the tracks, along with all their errors, which you have to correct manually.
I imagine the lyrics service may be included if you download songs from iTunes, but the article is'nt clear on this as far as I can see.
It's about time these dicknecks figured this one out. Lyrics scrolling on my iPod screen as I listen to a song. Wow, what a novel idea!
And I'm sure Microsoft will come out with a wireless version, where you can "beam" your lyrics to a group of strangers on the subway. All the strangers hook up and have a party at one of the Zune owner's flat. End of commercial and dream.
I'm not sure, but I thought Tiger came pre-installed with a Lyrics download Widget called "Sing that iTune", which enables you to search for lyrics and automatically transfer to iTunes, then onto your iPod when you synch. If I'm mistaken then I read about "Sing that iTunes" and downloaded it, I can't remember for sure. In addition, I also use "FetchYourLyrics", "pearLyrics", and "Harmonic". They all direct you to lyrics sites on Google, where you download from. Hope this helps .
I hope they don't expect kids to pay to get these lyrics. Since the album artwork is free, which incidentally is also material protected by copyright, I imagine they are going to just include it in the music file.
yes, you can already cut and paste lyrics into the track information in iTunes. but i never know if the lyrics I grab are 100% accurate or not. no one wants to be the goofball singing "watch me while i kiss this guy."
mmm... if you had penned a number one hit's lyrics after years of struggling as a writer, you might feel a little differently
If the lyrics are already licensed to be performed in the recording, I don't see what the problem is. If the band paid for the rights to perform or record the song, then I don't understand why a transcript of the performance included in the same song should mean parting with more money when the song writer was already paid for that particular work. Do screenwriters get more money for subtitles and closed caption tracks put on DVDs? I really don't know, but I expect the CC and sub tracks to be included on a DVD. I expect that song lyrics to be included with the CD and am disappointed in the rare case when they aren't. I really don't think it's too much to ask that a legal download include them. Having the lyrics in the file does not give other bands the right to perform the song.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius
Why? It would be one thing if these sites were selling the lyrics for profits or claiming that they were theirs, but to just post lyrics.
An ad-supported site would qualify as profiting from someone else's copyrighted work, that's probably why. Last I remember, the songwriters group didn't go after individual pages that weren't ad-supported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaPeaJay
How does that affect DJs? Does vinyl come with special licenses? Can they not spin CDs?
I'm pretty sure the ones that do it legally pay fees for public performance, I think through the likes of ASCAP. When you buy the CD, it's licenced only for private performance, such as in your home or car. Public performance requires a separate license. For example, a college club that plays a movie for students has to pay for the public performance rights, last I remember, it was something like $275.
What a gigantic load of CRAP. To this day I don't understand what the big deal is about posting lyrics. It's TEXT. You can't restrict TEXT.
You can wrap DRM around anything. For instance, the text can be encrypted and appended to a DRM certificate. Licensed viewer programs (capable of enforcing the DRM and decrypting the text) can be written to prevent users from selecting/copying the text when it's viewed.
If you're talking about law and not technology, that's also wrong. Copyright applies just as much to lyrics as it does the recording.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverboy
... considering how many Kareoke albums there are in iTunes.
Unfortunately, the karaoke tracks in iTunes right now are audio-only. So you really can't do much with them if you don't have a lyric sheet (or have the song memorized.)
Given the fact that the publishers of these karaoke songs already have a license for the lyrics (they sell CD+G and DVD discs with on-screen lyrics), they really should be selling these tracks as videos. But maybe the license that allows them to distribute lyrics on karaoke discs doesn't cover video-downlods or something.
They can freely distribute the musical portion of karaoke discs, because the audio is by in-house cover bands, who hold the copyright on their recording. (So distribution involves a standard non-negotiable license fee, just like any other cover-band recording.) But the original artist still has the copyright on the lyrics.
I think he was referring to the technological ability to restrict text, not the legal ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaPeaJay
How does that affect DJs? Does vinyl come with special licenses? Can they not spin CDs?
If it's a private show (say, you hire a DJ for a wedding), then this doesn't apply. That's not a public performance. (The DJ still has to have bought the music, of course.)
If it's a public performance (say, at a club that charges admission, or at a bar), then license fees have to be paid. There are clearinghouse agencies that bulk-license music to make this easy. In the US, there are three agencies: ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. Most published music is licensed to one of them. In order to legally play everything published, it is common practice to pay license fees to all three.
When there is a public performance, somebody has to have paid for a license for the performance to be legal. In the US (according to a DJ friend of mine) the obligation is on the venue (the bar, club, etc.) not on the DJ. The DJ (or his employer) may, however, choose to pay for his own licenses in order to avoid problems when performing at a venue that hasn't paid.
Album linear notes, along with lyrics, should come standard with any full album download, just like when you buy a hard copy. I know tons of music lovers who claim this (particularly linear notes, album art, etc.) as the single biggest reason they don't purchase music online.
Wouldn't it be dead easy for ITMS downloads to come complete with lyrics embedded in the ID3 tags ?
Now watch as Microsoft suddenly think of this too!
LOL, no doubt. Sometimes I think Microsoft's entire business model is to copy whatever Silicon Valley companies are doing.
A 'fast follower' is what the media calls them, but that's always been a nice term for 'monkey see, monkey do, monkey wishes it could innovate too'... \
My son plays acoustic and electric guitar. Tablitures would be really cool indeed. On second thought he's already going through my printer paper as it is with what he can find.
Comments
What a gigantic load of CRAP. To this day I don't understand what the big deal is about posting lyrics. It's TEXT. You can't restrict TEXT.
You are wrong.
I know the angle that "Artists are starving because of the lyrics being posted online" is totally absurd.
Yes I'm not in support of anyone gaining any copyright protection for lyrics so long as the person delivering the lyrics is not profiting from them. Thus if I wrote a song and my lyrics ended up on someones page and after perusing that page I notice a lot of advertising and pop-ups I would then have a case because my content is fueling their profitability from advertising. This way lyric sites would have to deliver them sans annoying adverstising or be shut down. That protects the artist and protects consumers.
As long as people aren't selling your lyrics they aren't damaging your livelyhood. However there "is" a moneytrail with some of these sites that should be looked at.
I wonder, if I started up a website with high quality images of the cd inserts, (digital booklets) for all sorts of albums and had ads on the site and made money with it, would that be against copyright too? If I had the resources to get that content, it would be a service to those who need it for their albums.
You are wrong.
That site said
you CANNOT play a recording of the music or lyrics in public--even if you own the CD
How does that affect DJs? Does vinyl come with special licenses? Can they not spin CDs?
I know the angle that "Artists are starving because of the lyrics being posted online" is totally absurd.
Perhaps if what you did for a living could be as easily bypassed you'd have a different take on this old argument.
That site said
How does that affect DJs? Does vinyl come with special licenses? Can they not spin CDs?
I assume they pay a fee. Even my phone system that played music when on hold had to include a license fee.
How about tabliture and sheet music too!
That I could tell you would be greatly welcomed. And if there was a Garageband file included, even better.
And I'm sure Microsoft will come out with a wireless version, where you can "beam" your lyrics to a group of strangers on the subway. All the strangers hook up and have a party at one of the Zune owner's flat. End of commercial and dream.
Why? It would be one thing if these sites were selling the lyrics for profits or claiming that they were theirs, but to just post lyrics. If someone wants a song's lyrics, they can just listen to the song enough times to get them all. Until I read this article, I didn't even consider the concept that it was illegal to post lyrics.
Regardless, Gracenote as the gatekeeper to "legal" lyrics scares me. Their database for albums is riddled with inaccurate garbage, so can it really be expected that their lyrics will be any better? As an example, back in the Napster days, I downloaded a song called "Ponytail Girl" that claimed to be by Depeche Mode. I went to the Gracenote website and looked the song and sure enough it was listed as being off a version of the "Exciter" album. Problem is the song is by a one-man band called Color Theory, not Depeche Mode, not even an unreleased DM song. It was however on a DM tribute album by Color Theory (and the song can be freely downloaded from Amazon.com). Or perhaps less esoterically, all the songs and albums iTunes has gotten wrong when it pulled the information from the Gracenote DB. According to Gracenote, both discs of Rush's Chronicles 2-CD set are the same. Or the Scorpions' song "Stone in My Shoe" which Gracenote tagged as the nonsensical "Stone in My Show." I'm more trusting of a random website for accurate lyrics then Gracenote.
On the first point, I don't agree with you. I look forward to downloading lyrics from Dashboard Widgets, as my hearing has never been very good. Although I can hear most words in a lot of conversations, quite often I can't, and with songs it's worse. I can usually hear the music, but can't make the words out, so the lyrics are useful to me. I know that older people also have the same problem with their hearing, so it can be useful for them too.
However, I've tried listening to songs to get the lyrics, but all too often a word/s is garbled and it takes forever to decipher.
I agree with you regards Gracenote though. Like you I find their database is often hopelessly innaccurate, and I would be very annoyed if we have to pay for this service separately and find we download their errors. I don't download songs from iTunes, (Apple charges more in the UK than in the States) just rip from CD's, and Gracenote automatically downloads the info for the tracks, along with all their errors, which you have to correct manually.
I imagine the lyrics service may be included if you download songs from iTunes, but the article is'nt clear on this as far as I can see.
It's about time these dicknecks figured this one out. Lyrics scrolling on my iPod screen as I listen to a song. Wow, what a novel idea!
And I'm sure Microsoft will come out with a wireless version, where you can "beam" your lyrics to a group of strangers on the subway. All the strangers hook up and have a party at one of the Zune owner's flat. End of commercial and dream.
I'm not sure, but I thought Tiger came pre-installed with a Lyrics download Widget called "Sing that iTune", which enables you to search for lyrics and automatically transfer to iTunes, then onto your iPod when you synch. If I'm mistaken then I read about "Sing that iTunes" and downloaded it, I can't remember for sure. In addition, I also use "FetchYourLyrics", "pearLyrics", and "Harmonic". They all direct you to lyrics sites on Google, where you download from. Hope this helps .
yes, you can already cut and paste lyrics into the track information in iTunes. but i never know if the lyrics I grab are 100% accurate or not. no one wants to be the goofball singing "watch me while i kiss this guy."
mmm... if you had penned a number one hit's lyrics after years of struggling as a writer, you might feel a little differently
If the lyrics are already licensed to be performed in the recording, I don't see what the problem is. If the band paid for the rights to perform or record the song, then I don't understand why a transcript of the performance included in the same song should mean parting with more money when the song writer was already paid for that particular work. Do screenwriters get more money for subtitles and closed caption tracks put on DVDs? I really don't know, but I expect the CC and sub tracks to be included on a DVD. I expect that song lyrics to be included with the CD and am disappointed in the rare case when they aren't. I really don't think it's too much to ask that a legal download include them. Having the lyrics in the file does not give other bands the right to perform the song.
Why? It would be one thing if these sites were selling the lyrics for profits or claiming that they were theirs, but to just post lyrics.
An ad-supported site would qualify as profiting from someone else's copyrighted work, that's probably why. Last I remember, the songwriters group didn't go after individual pages that weren't ad-supported.
How does that affect DJs? Does vinyl come with special licenses? Can they not spin CDs?
I'm pretty sure the ones that do it legally pay fees for public performance, I think through the likes of ASCAP. When you buy the CD, it's licenced only for private performance, such as in your home or car. Public performance requires a separate license. For example, a college club that plays a movie for students has to pay for the public performance rights, last I remember, it was something like $275.
What a gigantic load of CRAP. To this day I don't understand what the big deal is about posting lyrics. It's TEXT. You can't restrict TEXT.
You can wrap DRM around anything. For instance, the text can be encrypted and appended to a DRM certificate. Licensed viewer programs (capable of enforcing the DRM and decrypting the text) can be written to prevent users from selecting/copying the text when it's viewed.
If you're talking about law and not technology, that's also wrong. Copyright applies just as much to lyrics as it does the recording.
... considering how many Kareoke albums there are in iTunes.
Unfortunately, the karaoke tracks in iTunes right now are audio-only. So you really can't do much with them if you don't have a lyric sheet (or have the song memorized.)
Given the fact that the publishers of these karaoke songs already have a license for the lyrics (they sell CD+G and DVD discs with on-screen lyrics), they really should be selling these tracks as videos. But maybe the license that allows them to distribute lyrics on karaoke discs doesn't cover video-downlods or something.
They can freely distribute the musical portion of karaoke discs, because the audio is by in-house cover bands, who hold the copyright on their recording. (So distribution involves a standard non-negotiable license fee, just like any other cover-band recording.) But the original artist still has the copyright on the lyrics.
You are wrong.
I think he was referring to the technological ability to restrict text, not the legal ability.
How does that affect DJs? Does vinyl come with special licenses? Can they not spin CDs?
If it's a private show (say, you hire a DJ for a wedding), then this doesn't apply. That's not a public performance. (The DJ still has to have bought the music, of course.)
If it's a public performance (say, at a club that charges admission, or at a bar), then license fees have to be paid. There are clearinghouse agencies that bulk-license music to make this easy. In the US, there are three agencies: ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. Most published music is licensed to one of them. In order to legally play everything published, it is common practice to pay license fees to all three.
When there is a public performance, somebody has to have paid for a license for the performance to be legal. In the US (according to a DJ friend of mine) the obligation is on the venue (the bar, club, etc.) not on the DJ. The DJ (or his employer) may, however, choose to pay for his own licenses in order to avoid problems when performing at a venue that hasn't paid.
I also remember a time when CD booklets used to include those. Perhaps some still do.
Pretty pathetic how things have devolved.
Pretty pathetic how things have devolved.
I agree completly bedouin !
Album linear notes, along with lyrics, should come standard with any full album download, just like when you buy a hard copy. I know tons of music lovers who claim this (particularly linear notes, album art, etc.) as the single biggest reason they don't purchase music online.
Wouldn't it be dead easy for ITMS downloads to come complete with lyrics embedded in the ID3 tags ?
Cool
Now watch as Microsoft suddenly think of this too!
LOL, no doubt. Sometimes I think Microsoft's entire business model is to copy whatever Silicon Valley companies are doing.
A 'fast follower' is what the media calls them, but that's always been a nice term for 'monkey see, monkey do, monkey wishes it could innovate too'...
.
PearLyrics does its work very well
Originally Posted by bedouin\t
I remember a time when lyrics were included right on the album sleeve . . . for free.
I also remember a time when CD booklets used to include those. Perhaps some still do.
Pretty pathetic how things have devolved.
Totally Agree, poor music killed by business
How about tabliture and sheet music too!
My son plays acoustic and electric guitar. Tablitures would be really cool indeed. On second thought he's already going through my printer paper as it is with what he can find.
Oh, come now... Karoke would be an AWESOME idea...
...
...
...
for sweet 16 birthday parties...
-Clive
Just let them use this and leave us alone.
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/ikaraoke/