You are really missing something with your logic. Electronic Arts is utilizing Cider for these games, and EA's CCO announced the launch of these games during the WWDC keynote speech. EA's CCO is in this instance a representative of the company, and a highly ranked one at that, being co-founder and CCO of EA.
You can make use of technology or license technology and have a large array of positions on it. My company recently had to settle for writing some in-house software in PHP. It was a disaster. But due to cost, time, and technical restraints, we had to go and write a GUI app in PHP. Is my company "pro-PHP", do we "endorse PHP"? I guess, but none of that really makes sense. When you said you felt the same way about Cider as the CCO, I assumed you meant something beyond "I feel it is something a publisher can choose to license". Just because you have financial reasons to want Cider to succeed doesn't mean you can't at least try to understand what the guy arguing with you is saying.
Note: I'm not implying EA would have any reason to feel bad about their choice yet or that my analogy goes any further than I explain. It appears to be a financial win for them. (Remember, I'm mostly just bummed out as a gamer and Mac fan.)
Anyways! This is completely off topic. While I enjoy debating the technical merits of Cider, arguing over semantics and business stuff is pretty boring. Please only reply if you'd like to discuss the games and technology. (Because I can't be trusted not to argue back either way! ) )
If transparently means no side effects, you are correct.
Quote:
Every Direct3D game that is ported to the Mac uses some sort of OGL wrapper, so that's nothing new.
Not true even a little bit. Cider is the first instance I've seen where games using Direct3D have had this done to them. Every single game I can think of had a OpenGL renderer written. Please let me know if you know of any single exception at all to this.
And it's a lot more than Direct3D translation or Win32 API implementation. A -lot- of voodoo occurs. I think selling a game using this and calling it ported is nearly as cheap as Microsoft licensing Parallels, sticking Office 2007 into it with a special Aqua theme, and trying to sell it as a Mac version of the new Office. It might fool people, and it might even work okay, but it really is a bad thing for the Mac software industry and a disservice to the customers.
Well, Aspyr and others have claimed to have a D3D "wrapper".
I won't speculate further about the technical details, but I agree with you that this is a bad sign for the native Mac game industry.
Most likely you misheard talk about HLSL2GLSL, which converts HLSL shader language code to GLSL shader language code. It is neither a D3D->OpenGL wrapper nor a D3D->OpenGL converter -- it has a very limited scope. There is a fair chance Aspyr might use this.
Aspyr -- at least in every example I have here locally, is definitely using a dedicated OpenGL renderer.
not sure why everyone has to hate so much... they probably wont even have bought these games if they were rewritten from scratch for OSX...
I'll be buying some... Cider seems to work fine from my experience, and its transparent. I've used Cedega a lot on Linux, and with supported games it works pretty dang good, i have no problems with it. Cider will help Mac marketshare grow... in time it might be beneficial to game makers to make native versions... just have to see how the future goes. I dont get how someone wants to scream and yell about Cider.. it like theyd rather see no games at all.
I've used Cedega a lot on Linux, and with supported games it works pretty dang good, i have no problems with it.
I wish they'd release Cedega for the Mac. It already supports playing games like need For Speed without buying the game again. I already have the PC version, why would I go out and buy the Mac version?
Please stop using their buzzwords. Yes, I've played games emulated with Cider. Cider is nothing new. It's just Cedega. It's been around for years.
Transgaming pulled similar gags on Linux users years ago when they released a copy of "The Sims" for Linux that bombed. They are for the most part unliked in that community due to the negative impact they've had on Linux gaming. If people can play your game "Well enough" in Cedega, there is no incentive to offer a full port. Gavriel has simply extended this to Mac world but instead of making the emulator available to purchase to everyone, he's licensing it out to game makers on a per-game basis for better profit. The technology is identical. If you don't believe me that not all DirectX features are able to be translated to OpenGL, just take a look at the Cedega source code. Most of it is open source, as required by the license. (They took most of this technology from the opensource Wine, and while they promised to give features back after they became profitable, they reneged.)
You are correct though, they seem to have a decent profit model, at least for the short term. But as more and more games stop having DirectX 8 fallback modes and people get tired of the buggy titles, I think they're going to get the same way they were in 2003 again.
I'm sure if you're invested in them you're well aware of their ethical issues. Personally, I'd have a hard time feeling good about giving them any of my money.
No, transgaming tends to be disliked in the OSS community because of your second point, the lack of contribution back to wine's source (unlike, say, Codeweavers). Also, Cider is not *simply* cedega, it's a cedega powered wrapper and simplified API to make porting quicker, saying it's simply cedega (wine) is like saying Safari is simply khtml. And cedega *is* a bit further along on directx support than the normal wine tree is. I don't like transgaming, but let's not needlessly flame, eh?
I agree. I'm sorry for G5, G4 & G3 users, but would they really want to play NFS, BF2142 and C&C3 on such systems? I would imagine even a "native" port running dog slow. Intel Mac systems are the way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future.
No, transgaming tends to be disliked in the OSS community because of your second point, the lack of contribution back to wine's source (unlike, say, Codeweavers). Also, Cider is not *simply* cedega, it's a cedega powered wrapper and simplified API to make porting quicker, saying it's simply cedega (wine) is like saying Safari is simply khtml. And cedega *is* a bit further along on directx support than the normal wine tree is. I don't like transgaming, but let's not needlessly flame, eh?
Cedega powered wrapper? Simplified API? There is no API. It is just a Mac version of Cedega that is licensed on a per-game basis. All there is to it is a copy of cedega that is set up to run one and only one EXE -- the unmodified included game. There is no API -- this isn't winelib, nothing is recompiled for OS X.
I wish they'd release Cedega for the Mac. It already supports playing games like need For Speed without buying the game again. I already have the PC version, why would I go out and buy the Mac version?
Because you want to buy the game. It is a completely different publisher, a completely different product.
"Why would I buy Spiderman the book when I saw the movie? They owe me it!"
There's a lot of arguing here but i haven't found nobody guessing why EA picked Cider....
I don't think that EA will compromise their products using a lame emulator/translator/re router or whatever some could call it. Need for speed its heavy on graphics so the real question its which system will support better that kind of game.
Desktops are past due in update (iMac / MacPro) so i can expect new machines/updates around July with a joint release of both or at least the iMac with similar specs as MBP.
Its the first time we have so many new games coming, I cant recall none years ago. By now this is the best year for games over the Mac Platform with more than 10 plus the others yet released.
So chill a bit, and save money for your new system.
There's a lot of arguing here but i haven't found nobody guessing why EA picked Cider....
I don't think that EA will compromise their products using a lame emulator/translator/re router or whatever some could call it. Need for speed its heavy on graphics so the real question its which system will support better that kind of game.
Desktops are past due in update (iMac / MacPro) so i can expect new machines/updates around July with a joint release of both or at least the iMac with similar specs as MBP.
Its the first time we have so many new games coming, I cant recall none years ago. By now this is the best year for games over the Mac Platform with more than 10 plus the others yet released.
So chill a bit, and save money for your new system.
I don't think Apple and EA would have been on stage if they weren't confident of the quality of the releases. Plus, since transgaming is on a royalty model instead of a up front license model, I think they would have canceled the things if they didn't live up to expectations.
Because you want to buy the game. It is a completely different publisher, a completely different product.
It's the same product and the same publisher (otherwise there would be little point to the venture), the game is just running under a different OS. What I was saying about Cedega is it allows people to run Windows games they already own. Cider only gives Mac gamers a better prospect of future support but I'm still going to have old games that I want to play so I'll still need Bootcamp and I'll still need to buy PC games when inevitably some companies making them choose not to use transgaming's software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floam
"Why would I buy Spiderman the book when I saw the movie? They owe me it!"
I don't see how me having to buy the exact same game for a different platform equates to a book vs movie thing. Answers I would have accepted include 'if I get a PS3 game then why should I pay for the XBox 360 version'. However that misinterprets what I said. I don't mean I should get it free, all I'm saying is what motivation would I have to go out and buy the Mac version of the same game if I already have the Windows version? So porting old games is not necessarily the best idea but offering something like cedega would be as it covers compatibility with older games - not in place of Cider remember but as a complement to it.
I don't see how me having to buy the exact same game for a different platform equates to a book vs movie thing. Answers I would have accepted include 'if I get a PS3 game then why should I pay for the XBox 360 version'.
While my analogy wasn't very intuitive, I chose it on purpose. They're completely different. Different publishers, different SKUs.
Quote:
So porting old games is not necessarily the best idea but offering something like cedega would be as it covers compatibility with older games - not in place of Cider remember but as a complement to it.
I'm not sure what to say to this. You'd prefer a company to either sell you a emulated version ala Cider or an emulator to run your own games ala Cedega over a proper, fast, fully-featured Mac port?
While my analogy wasn't very intuitive, I chose it on purpose. They're completely different. Different publishers, different SKUs.
But it's the same publisher. EA doesn't license the games to Transgaming like they would do with Aspyr, Transgaming licenses their software to EA to use who still publish the game. Hopefully they would put both versions on the same disc like Pixar do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floam
I'm not sure what to say to this. You'd prefer a company to either sell you a emulated version ala Cider or an emulator to run your own games ala Cedega over a proper, fast, fully-featured Mac port?
Well no but if it works then I don't mind. I'd rather buy Cedega (or something similar) once than have to buy 50 old games again.
Cedega powered wrapper? Simplified API? There is no API. It is just a Mac version of Cedega that is licensed on a per-game basis. All there is to it is a copy of cedega that is set up to run one and only one EXE -- the unmodified included game. There is no API -- this isn't winelib, nothing is recompiled for OS X.
Hmmm, you're right. I poked around a bit more, I had thought I read that transgaming had created specific calls and such to simplify porting, I didn't realize in the end it was a cedega package around the exe. My bad on that one :-(.
Still, rest of my point still stands. They're producing a product (and, more importantly, supporting it) to make it easier to bring games to mac. The wine project and codeweavers focus is on making win apps run unmodified from the end user's POV, transgaming's focus (with cider) is on the software publisher. I may not like the company, but c'est la vie, and as I said cedega is a bit more along on directx support than vanilla wine, good enough a reason for ea and such to go w' transgaming, not even counting support or focus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floam
While my analogy wasn't very intuitive, I chose it on purpose. They're completely different. Different publishers, different SKUs.
I'm not sure what to say to this. You'd prefer a company to either sell you a emulated version ala Cider or an emulator to run your own games ala Cedega over a proper, fast, fully-featured Mac port?
WINE: Wine Is Not an Emulator, it's a reimplementation of the windows API, and is generally pretty close to windows speed (when it works :-p).
More games on mac is just so exciting to me. EA is huge in the field. GREAT NEWS. This will bring in more switchers for sure and allow us to have more games to play with.
As far as intel only...that's a no brainer!! Of course they are going to go that route. It would be silly to not future proof your software.
Comments
You are really missing something with your logic. Electronic Arts is utilizing Cider for these games, and EA's CCO announced the launch of these games during the WWDC keynote speech. EA's CCO is in this instance a representative of the company, and a highly ranked one at that, being co-founder and CCO of EA.
You can make use of technology or license technology and have a large array of positions on it. My company recently had to settle for writing some in-house software in PHP. It was a disaster. But due to cost, time, and technical restraints, we had to go and write a GUI app in PHP. Is my company "pro-PHP", do we "endorse PHP"? I guess, but none of that really makes sense. When you said you felt the same way about Cider as the CCO, I assumed you meant something beyond "I feel it is something a publisher can choose to license". Just because you have financial reasons to want Cider to succeed doesn't mean you can't at least try to understand what the guy arguing with you is saying.
Note: I'm not implying EA would have any reason to feel bad about their choice yet or that my analogy goes any further than I explain. It appears to be a financial win for them. (Remember, I'm mostly just bummed out as a gamer and Mac fan.)
Anyways! This is completely off topic. While I enjoy debating the technical merits of Cider, arguing over semantics and business stuff is pretty boring. Please only reply if you'd like to discuss the games and technology. (Because I can't be trusted not to argue back either way!
If it's done transparently, nobody will care.
If transparently means no side effects, you are correct.
Every Direct3D game that is ported to the Mac uses some sort of OGL wrapper, so that's nothing new.
Not true even a little bit. Cider is the first instance I've seen where games using Direct3D have had this done to them. Every single game I can think of had a OpenGL renderer written. Please let me know if you know of any single exception at all to this.
And it's a lot more than Direct3D translation or Win32 API implementation. A -lot- of voodoo occurs. I think selling a game using this and calling it ported is nearly as cheap as Microsoft licensing Parallels, sticking Office 2007 into it with a special Aqua theme, and trying to sell it as a Mac version of the new Office. It might fool people, and it might even work okay, but it really is a bad thing for the Mac software industry and a disservice to the customers.
I won't speculate further about the technical details, but I agree with you that this is a bad sign for the native Mac game industry.
Well, Aspyr and others have claimed to have a D3D "wrapper".
I won't speculate further about the technical details, but I agree with you that this is a bad sign for the native Mac game industry.
Most likely you misheard talk about HLSL2GLSL, which converts HLSL shader language code to GLSL shader language code. It is neither a D3D->OpenGL wrapper nor a D3D->OpenGL converter -- it has a very limited scope. There is a fair chance Aspyr might use this.
Aspyr -- at least in every example I have here locally, is definitely using a dedicated OpenGL renderer.
I'll be buying some... Cider seems to work fine from my experience, and its transparent. I've used Cedega a lot on Linux, and with supported games it works pretty dang good, i have no problems with it. Cider will help Mac marketshare grow... in time it might be beneficial to game makers to make native versions... just have to see how the future goes. I dont get how someone wants to scream and yell about Cider.. it like theyd rather see no games at all.
I've used Cedega a lot on Linux, and with supported games it works pretty dang good, i have no problems with it.
I wish they'd release Cedega for the Mac. It already supports playing games like need For Speed without buying the game again. I already have the PC version, why would I go out and buy the Mac version?
Please stop using their buzzwords. Yes, I've played games emulated with Cider. Cider is nothing new. It's just Cedega. It's been around for years.
Transgaming pulled similar gags on Linux users years ago when they released a copy of "The Sims" for Linux that bombed. They are for the most part unliked in that community due to the negative impact they've had on Linux gaming. If people can play your game "Well enough" in Cedega, there is no incentive to offer a full port. Gavriel has simply extended this to Mac world but instead of making the emulator available to purchase to everyone, he's licensing it out to game makers on a per-game basis for better profit. The technology is identical. If you don't believe me that not all DirectX features are able to be translated to OpenGL, just take a look at the Cedega source code. Most of it is open source, as required by the license. (They took most of this technology from the opensource Wine, and while they promised to give features back after they became profitable, they reneged.)
You are correct though, they seem to have a decent profit model, at least for the short term. But as more and more games stop having DirectX 8 fallback modes and people get tired of the buggy titles, I think they're going to get the same way they were in 2003 again.
I'm sure if you're invested in them you're well aware of their ethical issues. Personally, I'd have a hard time feeling good about giving them any of my money.
No, transgaming tends to be disliked in the OSS community because of your second point, the lack of contribution back to wine's source (unlike, say, Codeweavers). Also, Cider is not *simply* cedega, it's a cedega powered wrapper and simplified API to make porting quicker, saying it's simply cedega (wine) is like saying Safari is simply khtml. And cedega *is* a bit further along on directx support than the normal wine tree is. I don't like transgaming, but let's not needlessly flame, eh?
I agree. I'm sorry for G5, G4 & G3 users, but would they really want to play NFS, BF2142 and C&C3 on such systems? I would imagine even a "native" port running dog slow. Intel Mac systems are the way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future. The way of the future.
*covers mouth with hand*
lol the way of the future
bring in the milk. bring in the milk.
show me the blueprints. show me the blueprints...
i have madden 07 for gamecube, and new versions really aren't getting any better, graphics-wise.
instead of buying a wii or a 360, madden 08 for my macbook might be a good option. i'll have to read the reviews in august.
No, transgaming tends to be disliked in the OSS community because of your second point, the lack of contribution back to wine's source (unlike, say, Codeweavers). Also, Cider is not *simply* cedega, it's a cedega powered wrapper and simplified API to make porting quicker, saying it's simply cedega (wine) is like saying Safari is simply khtml. And cedega *is* a bit further along on directx support than the normal wine tree is. I don't like transgaming, but let's not needlessly flame, eh?
Cedega powered wrapper? Simplified API? There is no API. It is just a Mac version of Cedega that is licensed on a per-game basis. All there is to it is a copy of cedega that is set up to run one and only one EXE -- the unmodified included game. There is no API -- this isn't winelib, nothing is recompiled for OS X.
I wish they'd release Cedega for the Mac. It already supports playing games like need For Speed without buying the game again. I already have the PC version, why would I go out and buy the Mac version?
Because you want to buy the game. It is a completely different publisher, a completely different product.
"Why would I buy Spiderman the book when I saw the movie? They owe me it!"
I don't think that EA will compromise their products using a lame emulator/translator/re router or whatever some could call it. Need for speed its heavy on graphics so the real question its which system will support better that kind of game.
Desktops are past due in update (iMac / MacPro) so i can expect new machines/updates around July with a joint release of both or at least the iMac with similar specs as MBP.
Its the first time we have so many new games coming, I cant recall none years ago. By now this is the best year for games over the Mac Platform with more than 10 plus the others yet released.
So chill a bit, and save money for your new system.
There's a lot of arguing here but i haven't found nobody guessing why EA picked Cider....
I don't think that EA will compromise their products using a lame emulator/translator/re router or whatever some could call it. Need for speed its heavy on graphics so the real question its which system will support better that kind of game.
Desktops are past due in update (iMac / MacPro) so i can expect new machines/updates around July with a joint release of both or at least the iMac with similar specs as MBP.
Its the first time we have so many new games coming, I cant recall none years ago. By now this is the best year for games over the Mac Platform with more than 10 plus the others yet released.
So chill a bit, and save money for your new system.
I don't think Apple and EA would have been on stage if they weren't confident of the quality of the releases. Plus, since transgaming is on a royalty model instead of a up front license model, I think they would have canceled the things if they didn't live up to expectations.
Because you want to buy the game. It is a completely different publisher, a completely different product.
It's the same product and the same publisher (otherwise there would be little point to the venture), the game is just running under a different OS. What I was saying about Cedega is it allows people to run Windows games they already own. Cider only gives Mac gamers a better prospect of future support but I'm still going to have old games that I want to play so I'll still need Bootcamp and I'll still need to buy PC games when inevitably some companies making them choose not to use transgaming's software.
"Why would I buy Spiderman the book when I saw the movie? They owe me it!"
I don't see how me having to buy the exact same game for a different platform equates to a book vs movie thing. Answers I would have accepted include 'if I get a PS3 game then why should I pay for the XBox 360 version'. However that misinterprets what I said. I don't mean I should get it free, all I'm saying is what motivation would I have to go out and buy the Mac version of the same game if I already have the Windows version? So porting old games is not necessarily the best idea but offering something like cedega would be as it covers compatibility with older games - not in place of Cider remember but as a complement to it.
I don't see how me having to buy the exact same game for a different platform equates to a book vs movie thing. Answers I would have accepted include 'if I get a PS3 game then why should I pay for the XBox 360 version'.
While my analogy wasn't very intuitive, I chose it on purpose. They're completely different. Different publishers, different SKUs.
So porting old games is not necessarily the best idea but offering something like cedega would be as it covers compatibility with older games - not in place of Cider remember but as a complement to it.
I'm not sure what to say to this. You'd prefer a company to either sell you a emulated version ala Cider or an emulator to run your own games ala Cedega over a proper, fast, fully-featured Mac port?
While my analogy wasn't very intuitive, I chose it on purpose. They're completely different. Different publishers, different SKUs.
But it's the same publisher. EA doesn't license the games to Transgaming like they would do with Aspyr, Transgaming licenses their software to EA to use who still publish the game. Hopefully they would put both versions on the same disc like Pixar do.
I'm not sure what to say to this. You'd prefer a company to either sell you a emulated version ala Cider or an emulator to run your own games ala Cedega over a proper, fast, fully-featured Mac port?
Well no but if it works then I don't mind. I'd rather buy Cedega (or something similar) once than have to buy 50 old games again.
Cedega powered wrapper? Simplified API? There is no API. It is just a Mac version of Cedega that is licensed on a per-game basis. All there is to it is a copy of cedega that is set up to run one and only one EXE -- the unmodified included game. There is no API -- this isn't winelib, nothing is recompiled for OS X.
Hmmm, you're right. I poked around a bit more, I had thought I read that transgaming had created specific calls and such to simplify porting, I didn't realize in the end it was a cedega package around the exe. My bad on that one :-(.
Still, rest of my point still stands. They're producing a product (and, more importantly, supporting it) to make it easier to bring games to mac. The wine project and codeweavers focus is on making win apps run unmodified from the end user's POV, transgaming's focus (with cider) is on the software publisher. I may not like the company, but c'est la vie, and as I said cedega is a bit more along on directx support than vanilla wine, good enough a reason for ea and such to go w' transgaming, not even counting support or focus.
While my analogy wasn't very intuitive, I chose it on purpose. They're completely different. Different publishers, different SKUs.
I'm not sure what to say to this. You'd prefer a company to either sell you a emulated version ala Cider or an emulator to run your own games ala Cedega over a proper, fast, fully-featured Mac port?
WINE: Wine Is Not an Emulator, it's a reimplementation of the windows API, and is generally pretty close to windows speed (when it works :-p).
As far as intel only...that's a no brainer!! Of course they are going to go that route. It would be silly to not future proof your software.
As far as intel only...that's a no brainer!! Of course they are going to go that route. It would be silly to not future proof your software.
And how, I wonder, are universal binaries any less future proof than Intel only binaries?
And how, I wonder, are universal binaries any less future proof than Intel only binaries?
They're not, but they are more expensive and time consuming.