Apple's iLife '08 adds major new version of iPhoto and iMovie

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  • Reply 61 of 85
    nwjrnwjr Posts: 2member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    iMovie can be surprisingly effective for quick projects, where you don't want to fire up FCP. Yes, I admit it, my secret shame: I sometimes use iMovie for "real" projects.

    Bet I'm not the only one pressing iMovie into service for fast edits, though.



    You're not.



    Come on, they even took out basic things like chapter stops! For crying out loud, you can't even make anything but the most basic global adjustments to audio tracks. With the timeline, I actually had THREE audio tracks in iMovie 06, and I could make granular adjustments throughout. Not possible any longer. There's a laundry list of missing features.



    Here's a tacit admission from Apple that they fouled up: iMovie 06 is available as a free download to people who "upgraded" to the new version, or who found it preinstalled on their new machine. Discovered this in the support forums this morning. I guess that's good news, but it's completely unnecessary. Apple should have fixed the very few problems that plagued iMovie, and not ruined it with this ridiculous rewrite.
  • Reply 62 of 85
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    In the video of Jobs' presentation, he talks about setting a default length for clips. That is, you say "two seconds", and every clip you grab from the library will trimmed to two seconds, presenting you with a little two second window that you position over the clip when you grab it.



    Yes, you can easily drag the start and end points, but: the idea that people using iMovie would want to get rid of that annoying "choose length of edit" part of editing a movie speaks volumes about who Apple thought their target user was.



    As does the loss of being able to play an audio track past a clip into black. The audio track fades a the end of the video, no exceptions. That is completely and utterly fucked, and it's fucked even if you can still use the previous iMovie and it's fucked if you "should" be using FCE and it's fucked if you don't care about your movie and just want to do it fast! fast! fast!



    I guess taking away transition and title controls and preview help move things along as well. Pick a transition or a title style, use it or don't. Don't be wasting time "adjusting" things, that's so old skool.



    It's just an insult to the entire idea of "making a movie". The idea seems to be that, in your frenzy to get footage of your dog making dinner onto YouTube, you want everything automated, and only need the tools to see the clips, lump them together, stick some song from your iTunes library over it and hit the send to YouTube button. And it only took 15 seconds, hooray!



    A commentator somewhere else (and there are a lot of them, people are pretty outraged) hit it on the head, I think: iMovie is no longer a movie making program, it's a clip assembler. That's it, no further sophistication need apply.



    Again, I am alarmed as to what is going on within Apple to allow such a insanely dumbed down version on their own product to be released.
  • Reply 63 of 85
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Well Apple does sell 3 levels of video apps. They must have simply realized that the majority of the people currently using iMovie would be best served by a simpler product. The people not better served by the simpler product are probably intended to be FCE customers.
  • Reply 64 of 85
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    Well Apple does sell 3 levels of video apps. They must have simply realized that the majority of the people currently using iMovie would be best served by a simpler product. The people not better served by the simpler product are probably intended to be FCE customers.



    Well, that's one way to look at it, but it seems like a kind of strange realization of a kind of strange intent on Apple's part, to come this many years and this many iterations into iMovie's product life.



    It also makes one wonder why Apple has explicitly made iMovie HD 6 an available download, if the idea is to migrate people to FCE.



    And if the idea was to make iMovie easier to use, why not allow an "advanced" setting?



    Hey, I think Garage Band may be poaching on Logic Express sales. Let's get rid of all that confusing "time signature" and "event editing" and "effects" crap and make it so you can only stick loops end to end and make them louder or softer. Limit inputs to the built in mic on your Mac, so you can add a little karaoke fun, and then lay one of your iTunes songs over that (with the option to make it "quieter" than the other track.



    Limit the total number of tracks to four. 4/4 time only, no plug-ins so use it as is or not it all. But you can listen to things in the library bin, it's so awesome!



    And fast! Man, you can make a "song" in 30 seconds and have it on your My Space page with the click of a button!



    Well, that sure solves the complexity problem, and anybody who wants to do more than automagically stick things end to end obviously ought to be spending a great deal of money for the privilege.
  • Reply 65 of 85
    flinch13flinch13 Posts: 228member
    Let's do some iMovie math here...



    1) Cost: an iLife upgrade

    2) Less features than previous version

    3) Far more processer intensive than any iLife App even released



    I think this is a raw deal. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for this is that Apple is still working on this app, and they're going to add back in the other features and clean up the code so it's not so system resource selfish.



    The only realistic explanations I can think of are less optimistic, and some have already been discussed in this forum. Apple wants us to upgrade to FCE, that's probable. It's also probable that Apple wants everyone to subscribe to .mac... without chapter stops, who's going to burn DVD's anymore? No one, they'll just put it up on their web gallery. I'm sorry, but I won't pay $100 per year for this flashy crap I won't end up ever using. Really now.



    IMHO, iLife, .mac, and iWork should all be included with Leopard. For $129. Yes. I said it. What does it cost to manufacture the DVD media for these programs? Nothing. Packaging? About the same, and it's getting smaller all the time. What about server space and bandwidth? I suppose that'd be a little expensive, but for what .mac does, $129/yr. would more than cover any of that cost. I can confidently say that any Apple user would probably be willing to pay $129/yr for the whole package. Total cost of the Apple experience currently? $129 + $79 + $79 + $100.... the price of an iPod. Yearly. Fuck that. I'm waiting for this stuff until I have to buy a new computer. I bet a few others out there feel that way too, and Apple is losing their $129 as well.



    Oh the personal computer industry. So young, so brash.
  • Reply 66 of 85
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    The analogy to possible simplification of garage band is flawed. GB is normally used to create music rather than audio compilations. iMovie is the exact opposite. Most people use it to create clip compilations rather than movies with a plot.



    I agree that it is relatively unprecedented to offer a different program under the same name.

    Sure, they're probably offering a product that most people would prefer, but they're marketing it in an unreputable manner.
  • Reply 67 of 85
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    Well Apple does sell 3 levels of video apps. They must have simply realized that the majority of the people currently using iMovie would be best served by a simpler product. The people not better served by the simpler product are probably intended to be FCE customers.



    I think the choice of a strikingly different icon instead of the clapper board icon style that iMovie HD and FCE/FCP shared is evidence that they intended to distinguish it from the other professional video apps.
  • Reply 68 of 85
    flinch13flinch13 Posts: 228member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I think the choice of a strikingly different icon instead of the clapper board icon style that iMovie HD and FCE/FCP shared is evidence that they intended to distinguish it from the other professional video apps.



    That sounds reasonable to me.



    Does anyone know if Keyword Manager works with iPhoto '08? I sure hope it does.
  • Reply 69 of 85
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    The analogy to possible simplification of garage band is flawed. GB is normally used to create music rather than audio compilations. iMovie is the exact opposite. Most people use it to create clip compilations rather than movies with a plot.



    I agree that it is relatively unprecedented to offer a different program under the same name.

    Sure, they're probably offering a product that most people would prefer, but they're marketing it in an unreputable manner.



    I disagree that most people have been using iMovie solely to create clip compilations-- there is a lot of ground between wanting to work a little with timing and flow and sound and making a movie with a plot.



    There are a lot of educational, corporate and small business users that have been working with iMovie for years because the tool set matches what they are trying to do. They haven't been pushing iMovie past what it was clearly meant to be, somehow extracting value that rightfully belongs to FCE.



    To argue otherwise is akin to claiming that "most" Garage Band users never do anything more than assemble loops and maybe jam over that on a track or two, which is why I used it as an example.



    Another way to look at it is to imagine Apple suddenly sharply reducing the specs of the iMac so that it's functionality was limited to email and web browsing, and then to attempting to argue that such a move is perfectly reasonable since most people only use their iMac for email and web browsing, and that those already doing much more had been doing too much and "should" be using a Mac Pro.
  • Reply 70 of 85
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    I'm getting it tomorrow, and I want to hold off judgment until then. I really do just want to throw clips together for the family and kids to watch vacation footage. If it feels easier to do what I want, and I don't miss the things that were removed, then it's a good update for me. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people like me looked at it and felt it was too difficult to get into, and Apple knew that and was trying to address that with this change. If more people use this new iMovie now, then Apple did the right thing. The skimming looks pretty cool, and the iPhoto-like library seems very logical.



    But man, it's a bitch to just dump a well-loved piece of software. There are a ton of people who use it and love it, especially in schools. It's like Hypercard all over again. Maybe they could have built this new functionality into iPhoto, now that they're so similar anyway, rather than fiddle with iMovie like this.
  • Reply 71 of 85
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BRussell View Post


    I'm getting it tomorrow, and I want to hold off judgment until then. I really do just want to throw clips together for the family and kids to watch vacation footage. If it feels easier to do what I want, and I don't miss the things that were removed, then it's a good update for me. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people like me looked at it and felt it was too difficult to get into, and Apple knew that and was trying to address that with this change. If more people use this new iMovie now, then Apple did the right thing. The skimming looks pretty cool, and the iPhoto-like library seems very logical.



    But man, it's a bitch to just dump a well-loved piece of software. There are a ton of people who use it and love it, especially in schools. It's like Hypercard all over again. Maybe they could have built this new functionality into iPhoto, now that they're so similar anyway, rather than fiddle with iMovie like this.



    Your right-- for a certain user, this is a great new app. That's another reason it bugs me so much--if Apple had done this and kept the old flexibility, I would have been dancing in the streets.



    The skimming thing is genius, and blurring the distinction between media browser and player is and interesting rethink of workflow (although I'd want to use it for a while before I gave it the thumbs up).



    So much great new stuff, and so crippled. BRussell, if I had to guess, I'd say that your initial experience is going to be great and you're really going to enjoy "throwing together" some movies. But I bet you somewhere down the line, after you get the hang of slinging video around, you're going to start to want to get a little more creative, exert a little more "editorial" control.



    And at that point the new iMovie is going to let you down. It just doesn't allow for much of anything outside of the few controls Apple saw fit to include. I'm already bracing myself for a bunch of student films that seem weirdly alike in their pacing and all over structure.



    I guess it will be like iPhoto slide shows and the Ken Burns effect and some irritating song-- a format I have now seen some one billion times.
  • Reply 72 of 85
    scottibscottib Posts: 381member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Yeah, I caught that. At some point Jobs said something like "some people still like to make DVDs", like he was talking about floppy discs and Apple was being magnanimous to indulge this eccentricity.



    Well put. It's all about the YouTube. I guess I'll need to buy all my family members iTVs to view my movies on a television.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BRussell


    But man, it's a bitch to just dump a well-loved piece of software. There are a ton of people who use it and love it, especially in schools. It's like Hypercard all over again. Maybe they could have built this new functionality into iPhoto, now that they're so similar anyway, rather than fiddle with iMovie like this.



    Well put, and I agree. Hopefully, iM '06 will work for some time to come. My G4 can't handle the new iM, anyway, but I might be getting FCE preloaded on the next Mac purchase. Let us know how you like it.
  • Reply 73 of 85
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    Some thoughts about iMovie '08:



    The performance with HD video (720p, h.264) is absolutely terrible. The skimming barely works, it jumps and stutters, making editing a very difficult process.



    When importing video, it has to create thumbnails for the skimming, which basically means re-rendering all the video. It takes forever, about twice as long as real time.



    I'm using a 2 ghz Core Duo MacBook Pro; from what I've seen of the benchmarks, most Macs are not hugely faster, with the exception of the current Mac Pros, so I can't believe this is a rare issue for those using HD. Perhaps the codec my camera uses is particularly difficult for iMovie, I don't know. Performance with video from my still camera (640X480) is fine.



    It also crashes frequently.



    Given this, it's very difficult for me to evaluate other aspects. I think the overall feel is simpler, and will probably be easier for newbies to iMovie to get into. Those who want the finer editing of the old iMovie will probably need Final Cut Express now. For people who have a lot invested in iMovie, I can understand their disappointment. In the bigger picture though, it may be better positioning of this product than the previous.



    But as a new app, this still needs a lot of work on stability and performance.
  • Reply 74 of 85
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BRussell View Post


    Some thoughts about iMovie '08:



    The performance with HD video (720p, h.264) is absolutely terrible. The skimming barely works, it jumps and stutters, making editing a very difficult process.



    When importing video, it has to create thumbnails for the skimming, which basically means re-rendering all the video. It takes forever, about twice as long as real time.



    I'm using a 2 ghz Core Duo MacBook Pro; from what I've seen of the benchmarks, most Macs are not hugely faster, with the exception of the current Mac Pros, so I can't believe this is a rare issue for those using HD. Perhaps the codec my camera uses is particularly difficult for iMovie, I don't know. Performance with video from my still camera (640X480) is fine.



    It also crashes frequently.



    Given this, it's very difficult for me to evaluate other aspects. I think the overall feel is simpler, and will probably be easier for newbies to iMovie to get into. Those who want the finer editing of the old iMovie will probably need Final Cut Express now. For people who have a lot invested in iMovie, I can understand their disappointment. In the bigger picture though, it may be better positioning of this product than the previous.



    But as a new app, this still needs a lot of work on stability and performance.





    Man, bummer. I'm looking at a video camera and some that interest me use the ACVHD codec. iMovie 08 appealed to me just on that basis alone. I'm a rookie so advanced editing features I can live without for now. Stability though is a desirable feature and I might just keep iMovie 06 and look at video cameras that use codecs that iMovie 06 can handle.
  • Reply 75 of 85
    poppetpoppet Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    Man, bummer. I'm looking at a video camera and some that interest me use the ACVHD codec. iMovie 08 appealed to me just on that basis alone. I'm a rookie so advanced editing features I can live without for now. Stability though is a desirable feature and I might just keep iMovie 06 and look at video cameras that use codecs that iMovie 06 can handle.





    Oh my goodness. Reading this thread has just put me into one hell of a spin.



    When I saw imovie 08 annouced I intially thought great. I am in the market for a video camera and had been looking at the mini dv versions (Canon HV10/HV20 and Sony HC7). I was thinking that this new app would be great because I could now choose the best camera and format I wanted.



    I moved over to mac a couple of months back. I've had a few problems with my macbook so its been in the service centre for 4 of those weeks. In between visits I managed to make a dvd to send overseas to my parents in law and other elderly relatives. My movie was made up of photos, movie clips taken with my digital camera, isight camera. I had to download mpeg streamclip so that it demuxed my mpeg files and then I could edit them in imovie. I spent a lot of time editing especially as the sound levels changed so much. Hearing my own voice (which is always next to the camera) and a high level needed toning down on some of the clips. Clips at the swimming pool were too noisy and sometimes the kids were too quiet. Yes it did take a lot of time but it did look and sound much better. Having the control to edit frame by frame was great to.



    Having read all the comments in this thread I think I might stay with imovie 06 for now. I am one disappointed person right now.



    Is it possible run both imovie 06 and imovie 08 on the same computer? Is this a solution for so you can still use the features in 06? Don't know how I would get the new formats back to 06 though. How different is final cut to these apps. Perhaps I should be thinking about getting this now. (I havne't even checked out the price).



    I've never heard of something so stupid as to completely change an application. Ok so I've only made one movie but it took time to learn how to use it now they have completely changed some of the main features and given me less control (What the .....). That's madness. You would think they would at least keep those features and add a few more. As a previous post said with garage band they made the wizard. I am confused now which version I should be spending time getting to grips with.



    p.s one of the reasons I moved to mac is so that I could stick to software that all integrated and ran pretty seemlessly. This doesn't sound too seemless to me now!!!



    pps. .mac got the upgrade it needed but hell you have to get ilife08 to benefit from a lot of it. Will that stuff up using imovie 06?
  • Reply 76 of 85
    ronaldoronaldo Posts: 439member
    I bought my new Imac just 1 1/2 years ago, but I will not be able to use Imovie 08 because my processor is not fast enough. What a crock.

    But from what I have been reading on apples support site, not too many Imovie users are very happy with the so called Imovie upgrade.
  • Reply 77 of 85
    Checked my Apps folder just now and saw that iMovie HD is still there: the folder says "previous version". iWork: same thing. The iLife and iWork updates do not replace and erase some of the apps.



    I have played with iMovie tonight and like some stuff and have big, "why in the heck did/didn't they do that?" about some other stuff. All in all, it has awesome potential and some great features for a 1.0 app and the programmer must be pretty proud of himself; Apple took a huge gamble on this one. That said, it is a 1.0 app and has a lot of maturing to do.



    For my daily life, where I will be making "shorts", I will use the new version of iMovie, but for my work, where I regularly work with hour-long films and have to make DVDs (yes, Steve, in business we do need to make DVDs), I will stick with the old version. (I also have a large investment in plug-ins that I use frequently that don't work with '08.)



    On Cams, wait another month or two. Japanese manufacturers release new versions usually in time for school sports days, which are in September (a little later probably in the US), so they should be coming any time now and may iron out some problems. I've had my eye on the small Panasonic that records to flash for a couple of months (it is very light), but my friend at the local home electronics shop told me to hold off 'till fall.
  • Reply 78 of 85
    doggonedoggone Posts: 184member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shintocam View Post


    I ordered my new Mac 3 weeks ago. It finally arrives last friday (ie 3 days ago) and NOW they update iWork (which I had preinstalled) and iLife (which comes with the new Mac). Grrrrrrrrr.......



    I wouldn't care if the new apps didn't look so nice......



    If the apps are released this soon after you bought the mac, then I think Apple will provide you a cheap upgrade. Your documentation may even contain vouchers for such events.
  • Reply 79 of 85
    nofeernofeer Posts: 2,422member
    will leopard have iphoto 8 thats all i want for now out of iLife
  • Reply 80 of 85
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yblanco View Post


    I bought a brand new Macbook Pro less than 3 weeks ago. Will Apple consider giving me a coupon for free or discounted upgrade to iLife 08? I think they have done this in the past.



    My Macbook Pro was ordered on around July 19, shipped August 9, and will be delivered tomorrow.



    Should I expect it to have iLife preinstalled? If not, will I be able to request the $10 upgrade?
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