I don't have any opinion on the margin of their various product lines. But here are couple other things to consider.
Laptops involve a bunch of engineering and manufacturing problems aren't found in non-portable computers. Iterative design on the casing and frame tends to drive up costs of laptop development. Then it costs more to manufacture because the tooling is far far more complicated while tolerances are also much tighter. Sloppy components being off by a milimeter doesn't matter so much in a desktop. The MBP battery casing probably costs more than an entire iMac case.
Thermal management also drives laptop costs way up. This should not be underestimated. Confined cooling demands sophisticated components that are more expensive than their larger counterparts.
Miniturization and durability are significant costs.
Not that I'm arguing though. I have no idea about Apple's margins.
I agree with all of that. I'm not trying to say the MacBook Pro is a rip off or anything. Just that the MacBook Pro has higher margins than the iMac. And that wasn't even the original point I was trying to make!
My original point was that the iMac uses several laptop parts. This is a fact. And that if Apple were to use desktop components in a different form factor, they could deliver the same power for less, or more power for the same money. Because desktop components cost less than laptop ones. Fact.
There have been teardowns of iMacs from the very beginning. They DON'T use the same mobo, or most anything, other than the cpu, chipset, memory, and optical drive. The rest is all different.
For one thing, the case of the MBP is much more expensive. It's more complex. Miniaturization costs more. It always does.
Even these expensive batteries used add a lot to the price of the machine. More than the power supply of an iMac, and then you have the charger module as well.
Assembly of a MBP is more expensive. I would be very surprised if an iMac uses as much hand assembly as a MBP does.
The margin on this iMac may be around 25%. The margin on a MBP may be 35%. Not nearly enough to account for the difference in price, which is $1,000.
So i am confused now Mel, surely to make the iMac as thin as it is we are talking about miniaturization, a new 20" imac is not much bigger than a 17" MBP. Apple have acheived this by filling its guts with laptop components, i thought this was a given, i thought everyone understood this!
*The CPU is a laptop CPU
*The memory is just memory, the same as he notebooks use.
*The graphics cards are laptop graphics cards are they not? All this talk about it being a desktop Graphics card is not true, the ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT is designed for laptops.
All this motherboard talk is tosh to be honest, a motherboard is something that is shared betwen all computers of any shape and size. Motherboards are designed and built to fit the format of the device they are going to be installed in.
The only true Desktop part that the iMac has is the 3.5" HDD and i am very suprised at that as i was expecting a 2.5" Drive to be honest to keep the unit thin (i guess that is why the chin is still there)
This is a quote from Digital Arts...
Quote:
Unlike rivals such as Dell Inc. and Hewlett-Packard Co., Apple uses chips normally slated for notebooks in the iMac, reflecting their laptop-like design. The higher temperatures of traditional desktop CPUs would give the iMac thermal problems, or require larger, and louder, fans.
The design of the iMac means that Apple cannot build a true desktop they have built a notebook with a bigger screen. But this is what was expected, we knew that iMac's were like this and we expected the same thing again in this revision. My point is only that for Steve Jobs to sit and talk about building an iMac full of cheaper desktop parts is just plain silly! This is why even thought i would have preferred a desktop i did not want to go back to Windows so i bought a MBP instead. If i am going to be using a computer full of notebook parts then it might as well be a notebook!
Edit: I will give you an example, a friend of mine is in the market for a new computer and i have been trying to get him to switch over to Mac's, while becuase i have been selling the whole Mac thing he does understand many of the benefits of switching he still has not bought anything. Why? Because like many PC users he understands the technology available, from years of upgrading memeory, hard drives, graphics cards etc.. that many many PC users do often (it is so easy now you do not even need a screwdriver to replace most components on a PC) He is not sure that the benefits are worth the switch when he can buy for less money a much much more powerful desktop with desktop parts. He just cannot see the point in spending more money on something that gives him less power, he has not even changed his mind since seeing the new iMac.
This is typical of millions of people in the world who are currently thinking about buying a new computer, all i am saying is would it kill Apple to actually make a desktop PC and start winning some of these customers over? When you look at some of the new Dells and HP's in the stores it is mind boggling how powerful they are, even i was very tempted for a while when waiting for a salesman to sell me my MBP.
I would focus less on the cost of the consumer level components and more on the design costs of a miniaturized and durable solution. Looking at only the component costs is misleading. There are elevated "laptop" costs in engineering and manufacturing that aren't involved or are significantly reduced in the imac.
Apple sold over 600,000 desktops last quarter. No way that anywhere near 200,000 of them were Mac Pros. Back when Apple were still breaking out the sales figures, they repeatedly stated the "hope" that they'd be able to get the G5 tower sales back to 100,000 per quarter.
I don't think that the xMac would canabalise iMac sales to anywhere near that extent. Seriously, who in their right mind buys an iMac when what they really want is an xMac? Potential xMac purchasers are either potential Windows switchers who currently are saying to themselves "oh well, Apple still don't make the machine I want, guess I'm sticking with Windows", or Apple fans who currently buy second-hand Mac Towers from eBay.
Apple don't have the correct line-up to do (2). They need additional models (an xMac) in order to expand desktop market share.
your 1st 2 points are absolutely correct to my knowledge and instincts, but your 3rd is off -- Apple's NOTNOTNOT gonna throw all the resouces a new line entails to expand market share in a SHRINKING market, when the payoff's so much higher in new and rapidly growing ones - UNLESSUNLESSUNLESS the business desktop market became a growing market for them, because of their minuscule share of it.
Wishing won't change that. So root for Apple in the SMB & Enterprise if you really expect the XMac to see the light of day -- if even then.
The desktop market is not shrinking. It's just growing slower than the laptop market, so laptops are becoming a bigger % of the overall market.
True that. Some people have the very mistaken notion that laptops are like 90% of the market already, and that the desktop will be extinct sometime next year, lol.
Quote:
I don't really expect to see an xMac. It's pretty obvious Steve doesn't like the idea. But in this case, I think he's an idiot.
He's not an idiot. What he is, is sometimes wrong. And very, very stubbornly so.
The desktop market is not shrinking. It's just growing slower than the laptop market, so laptops are becoming a bigger % of the overall market.
That's what I thought too, until I read the latest figures. Desktop sales are now actually shrinking in absolute terms as the tectonic shift to mobile platforms has only kept accelerating. So time to chuck that old saw in this endless debate. If Apple's finally going to grant your (& my) xMac wishes it will only be by foregoing a greater potential ROI elsewhere. And to Steve J, that's like going into the floppy disc market, which A was the first major vendor to exit.
There are more complete figures elsewhere, but this article is one source...
""Everybody's notebook business grew last month," Stephen Baker, NPD's VP of industry analysis, told reporters, adding that notebook sales overall last month grew by 40 percent, compared to a year ago. "But Apple's grew a little faster than the market overall," he said.
He added that Apple has been gaining market share for the past 18 months, and that the consumer market in general is embracing notebooks. With widespread wireless connections, powerful processors, and large-capacity drives, notebooks are being used instead of many desktop models.
As a result, Baker noted, desktop sales are declining overall, with Apple's "a little less" than others. Apple might also enjoy another boost soon, he noted, as back-to-school purchases begin to kick in. "
That's what I thought too, until I read the latest figures. Desktop sales are now actually shrinking in absolute terms as the tectonic shift to mobile platforms has only kept accelerating. So time to chuck that old saw in this endless debate. ]
If they are shrinking, its pretty slowly, and it may even be a short-term blip. The desktop market is a good long way from dead... even Apple is still over 1/3 desktops. To quote another AI article:
Despite selling nearly two-thirds of all its Macs as portables, Apple's product line still needs desktops for many users, according to Jobs. Desktops are still important: the extra size allows for faster and inexpensive parts as well as larger displays, he said. Many buyers also look to own two different systems,
If you have some actual figures to post, that'd be great.
If they are shrinking, its pretty slowly, and it may even be a short-term blip. The desktop market is a good long way from dead... even Apple is still over 1/3 desktops. To quote another AI article:
Despite selling nearly two-thirds of all its Macs as portables, Apple's product line still needs desktops for many users, according to Jobs. Desktops are still important: the extra size allows for faster and inexpensive parts as well as larger displays, he said. Many buyers also look to own two different systems,
If you have some actual figures to post, that'd be great.
.
Plus, Apple isn't exactly representative of the market here. When it comes right down to it, if you have the money, there is very little incentive to purchase a Mac Mini or iMac over one of the portables.
Comments
I don't have any opinion on the margin of their various product lines. But here are couple other things to consider.
Laptops involve a bunch of engineering and manufacturing problems aren't found in non-portable computers. Iterative design on the casing and frame tends to drive up costs of laptop development. Then it costs more to manufacture because the tooling is far far more complicated while tolerances are also much tighter. Sloppy components being off by a milimeter doesn't matter so much in a desktop. The MBP battery casing probably costs more than an entire iMac case.
Thermal management also drives laptop costs way up. This should not be underestimated. Confined cooling demands sophisticated components that are more expensive than their larger counterparts.
Miniturization and durability are significant costs.
Not that I'm arguing though. I have no idea about Apple's margins.
I agree with all of that. I'm not trying to say the MacBook Pro is a rip off or anything. Just that the MacBook Pro has higher margins than the iMac. And that wasn't even the original point I was trying to make!
My original point was that the iMac uses several laptop parts. This is a fact. And that if Apple were to use desktop components in a different form factor, they could deliver the same power for less, or more power for the same money. Because desktop components cost less than laptop ones. Fact.
The problem is that you're wrong. Period.
There have been teardowns of iMacs from the very beginning. They DON'T use the same mobo, or most anything, other than the cpu, chipset, memory, and optical drive. The rest is all different.
For one thing, the case of the MBP is much more expensive. It's more complex. Miniaturization costs more. It always does.
Even these expensive batteries used add a lot to the price of the machine. More than the power supply of an iMac, and then you have the charger module as well.
Assembly of a MBP is more expensive. I would be very surprised if an iMac uses as much hand assembly as a MBP does.
The margin on this iMac may be around 25%. The margin on a MBP may be 35%. Not nearly enough to account for the difference in price, which is $1,000.
So i am confused now Mel, surely to make the iMac as thin as it is we are talking about miniaturization, a new 20" imac is not much bigger than a 17" MBP. Apple have acheived this by filling its guts with laptop components, i thought this was a given, i thought everyone understood this!
*The CPU is a laptop CPU
*The memory is just memory, the same as he notebooks use.
*The graphics cards are laptop graphics cards are they not? All this talk about it being a desktop Graphics card is not true, the ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT is designed for laptops.
All this motherboard talk is tosh to be honest, a motherboard is something that is shared betwen all computers of any shape and size. Motherboards are designed and built to fit the format of the device they are going to be installed in.
The only true Desktop part that the iMac has is the 3.5" HDD and i am very suprised at that as i was expecting a 2.5" Drive to be honest to keep the unit thin (i guess that is why the chin is still there)
This is a quote from Digital Arts...
Unlike rivals such as Dell Inc. and Hewlett-Packard Co., Apple uses chips normally slated for notebooks in the iMac, reflecting their laptop-like design. The higher temperatures of traditional desktop CPUs would give the iMac thermal problems, or require larger, and louder, fans.
The design of the iMac means that Apple cannot build a true desktop they have built a notebook with a bigger screen. But this is what was expected, we knew that iMac's were like this and we expected the same thing again in this revision. My point is only that for Steve Jobs to sit and talk about building an iMac full of cheaper desktop parts is just plain silly! This is why even thought i would have preferred a desktop i did not want to go back to Windows so i bought a MBP instead. If i am going to be using a computer full of notebook parts then it might as well be a notebook!
Edit: I will give you an example, a friend of mine is in the market for a new computer and i have been trying to get him to switch over to Mac's, while becuase i have been selling the whole Mac thing he does understand many of the benefits of switching he still has not bought anything. Why? Because like many PC users he understands the technology available, from years of upgrading memeory, hard drives, graphics cards etc.. that many many PC users do often (it is so easy now you do not even need a screwdriver to replace most components on a PC) He is not sure that the benefits are worth the switch when he can buy for less money a much much more powerful desktop with desktop parts. He just cannot see the point in spending more money on something that gives him less power, he has not even changed his mind since seeing the new iMac.
This is typical of millions of people in the world who are currently thinking about buying a new computer, all i am saying is would it kill Apple to actually make a desktop PC and start winning some of these customers over? When you look at some of the new Dells and HP's in the stores it is mind boggling how powerful they are, even i was very tempted for a while when waiting for a salesman to sell me my MBP.
He is not sure that the benefits are worth the switch
You just need to convince him that he really needs a laptop, and you'll be made
Apple sold over 600,000 desktops last quarter. No way that anywhere near 200,000 of them were Mac Pros. Back when Apple were still breaking out the sales figures, they repeatedly stated the "hope" that they'd be able to get the G5 tower sales back to 100,000 per quarter.
I don't think that the xMac would canabalise iMac sales to anywhere near that extent. Seriously, who in their right mind buys an iMac when what they really want is an xMac? Potential xMac purchasers are either potential Windows switchers who currently are saying to themselves "oh well, Apple still don't make the machine I want, guess I'm sticking with Windows", or Apple fans who currently buy second-hand Mac Towers from eBay.
Apple don't have the correct line-up to do (2). They need additional models (an xMac) in order to expand desktop market share.
your 1st 2 points are absolutely correct to my knowledge and instincts, but your 3rd is off -- Apple's NOTNOTNOT gonna throw all the resouces a new line entails to expand market share in a SHRINKING market, when the payoff's so much higher in new and rapidly growing ones - UNLESSUNLESSUNLESS the business desktop market became a growing market for them, because of their minuscule share of it.
Wishing won't change that. So root for Apple in the SMB & Enterprise if you really expect the XMac to see the light of day -- if even then.
expand market share in a SHRINKING market
Let's nip this one in the bud right now:
The desktop market is not shrinking. It's just growing slower than the laptop market, so laptops are becoming a bigger % of the overall market.
if you really expect the XMac to see the light of day -- if even then.
I don't really expect to see an xMac. It's pretty obvious Steve doesn't like the idea. But in this case, I think he's an idiot.
Let's nip this one in the bud right now:
The desktop market is not shrinking. It's just growing slower than the laptop market, so laptops are becoming a bigger % of the overall market.
True that. Some people have the very mistaken notion that laptops are like 90% of the market already, and that the desktop will be extinct sometime next year, lol.
I don't really expect to see an xMac. It's pretty obvious Steve doesn't like the idea. But in this case, I think he's an idiot.
He's not an idiot. What he is, is sometimes wrong. And very, very stubbornly so.
.
He's not an idiot.
I did say "in this case". He's clearly not an all-out idiot.
sometimes wrong. And very stubbornly so.
Much like an idiot.
I did say "in this case". He's clearly not an all-out idiot.
Much like an idiot.
Jobs is doing a pretty good imitation of an idiot when it comes to desktops, this is true.
But he's still not an idiot.
I do understand the frustration, though.
.
Let's nip this one in the bud right now:
The desktop market is not shrinking. It's just growing slower than the laptop market, so laptops are becoming a bigger % of the overall market.
That's what I thought too, until I read the latest figures. Desktop sales are now actually shrinking in absolute terms as the tectonic shift to mobile platforms has only kept accelerating. So time to chuck that old saw in this endless debate. If Apple's finally going to grant your (& my) xMac wishes it will only be by foregoing a greater potential ROI elsewhere. And to Steve J, that's like going into the floppy disc market, which A was the first major vendor to exit.
There are more complete figures elsewhere, but this article is one source...
That's what I thought too, until I read the latest figures. Desktop sales are now actually shrinking in absolute terms as the tectonic shift to mobile platforms has only kept accelerating. So time to chuck that old saw in this endless debate. ]
If they are shrinking, its pretty slowly, and it may even be a short-term blip. The desktop market is a good long way from dead... even Apple is still over 1/3 desktops. To quote another AI article:
Despite selling nearly two-thirds of all its Macs as portables, Apple's product line still needs desktops for many users, according to Jobs. Desktops are still important: the extra size allows for faster and inexpensive parts as well as larger displays, he said. Many buyers also look to own two different systems,
If you have some actual figures to post, that'd be great.
.
If they are shrinking, its pretty slowly, and it may even be a short-term blip. The desktop market is a good long way from dead... even Apple is still over 1/3 desktops. To quote another AI article:
Despite selling nearly two-thirds of all its Macs as portables, Apple's product line still needs desktops for many users, according to Jobs. Desktops are still important: the extra size allows for faster and inexpensive parts as well as larger displays, he said. Many buyers also look to own two different systems,
If you have some actual figures to post, that'd be great.
.
Plus, Apple isn't exactly representative of the market here. When it comes right down to it, if you have the money, there is very little incentive to purchase a Mac Mini or iMac over one of the portables.