Briefly: On last minute iMac and iPhone design changes

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Comments

  • Reply 101 of 114
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,822member
    I'm struggling to understand why Melgross is being so misunderstood here



    It's pretty obvious:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    First of all that first paragraph is SO condescending its unbelieveable.



    Condescending? Perhaps. True? Definitely.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    Second of all, if MORE SKUs mean an overall cost increase then why is it that other companies can produce a seemingly endless variety of MP3 players (for example) that almost always manage to cost LESS than an equivilant iPod?



    That proves nothing. It's just a good explanation as to why no-one else makes as much money from mp3 players as Apple. They all have much lower margins than Apple.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    It's about the bottom line, Apple margin, thats what it comes down to.



    Um, that's exactly Mel's point.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    why are you so insistent on defending them?



    He isn't defending them. What he is defending is his assertion that adding SKUs increase costs and therefore reduce margins. His point is that Apple probably don't offer a screen-finish choice, because they don't think the associated margin reduction would be worth it. At no point has he said that he thinks that that is a good idea. In fact, he has stated the contrary.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    Re SKUs the glass can be taken out with a suction cup type tool, yes? Then ship ALL the iMacs with Glossy if you must and simply stock the matte screen ONLY then in the Apple store, give the customer the option to swap it out and explain what it involves, 3/4 mins should do it, and it ONLY involves stocking some screens, which pack a LOT tighter in warehouses than the vast sea of unwanted matte screen iMacs that you invision. There are various options for making glass non-glossy at the factory, or if need be use a matte plastic, but the CUSTOMER gets the option



    I can't believe that you've obviously given this more than a few seconds' thought, but haven't realised the fact that everything you've talked about would increase Apple's costs relative to offering no choice.
  • Reply 102 of 114
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Yes, as hard as it may be for you to believe, it does add to the cost. You just don't want to think it through. It's a joke to you. But, if you do think of what happens, from the first designs, to the stocking of the stores, you would understand that the more SKU's the higher the price.



    Apple has so few stock product variations, and sells such a huge quantity of them, that it's hard to believe it would be a very expensive problem, in terms of cost per unit. If they had several dozen major products, then I would agree.
  • Reply 103 of 114
    For you anti-glossers, a quick two-second Google search solves your issue:



    http://www.powersupportusa.com/produ...hp?category=pb



    And there's plenty more where that came from. That is what the after market and 3rd party developers are for after all. Apple typically leaves improvements and accessories to the 3rd party developers to give them a shot at some cash and to build a community for Apple products.



    Also it's pretty common sense that adding more options costs more money, whether real or in financial terms such as margins and what not. You can't make something for free. Yes, would it be nice if all of Apple products came with extensive BTO options, of course, but then again it would complicate the ordering process for novice users which turns into a no sale, it increases the amount of staff and work required to get and fulfill an order, and at most Apple makes a marginal if any profit from offering the option. Let's face it, this is a business, and Apple is looking to make some dough, they could care less if your 100% happy with the product, they know 1) you're going to buy it anyways or 2) someone else will.



    Just look at what it takes to order a Dell computer these days, you have to go through like 50 screens to configure a computer just to see if all the options you want are worth the price they want for it. On the Apple store you have one page of options and you have the price in a minute or less. There's something to be said for minimalization.



    Oh and by the way, that old rule "The customer's always right" has been obsolete since big corporations took over the world in the '70s. These days "store policy" rules the transaction.
  • Reply 104 of 114
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    if MORE SKUs mean an overall cost increase then why is it that other companies can produce a seemingly endless variety of MP3 players (for example) that almost always manage to cost LESS than an equivilant iPod? more SKUs costing less.

    It's about the bottom line, Apple margin, thats what it comes down to.



    You probably don't remember when Apple had dozens of different desktop computers in their line up. It nearly killed them back in the mid 90's. At that time everyone was screaming for them to simplify the line to just a couple models which they did and it helped return them to profitability.



    m
  • Reply 105 of 114
    While I'm here I'll also throw out my experience with a glossy MacBook...



    I bought a Black MacBook maxed out with all the options about a month after they first came out. I choose the glossy screen because I saw it in the Apple store and liked how it looked.



    I work in a direct mail print house (www.supercoups.com) as the Network Administrator and therefore have lots of experience with various display types and the effect they have on color output.



    I brought in my MacBook shortly after purchase to do some testing under the Intel environment with the applications we use. We have mostly fluorescent lighting and lots of windows which wreck havoc with color profiling. Overall I felt the glossy screen didn't create any more issues with color reproduction over any other display type. CRTs are still easier to color correct. My preference between the glossy and anti-glare LCDs is the glossy due to the colors matching more on screen to the printed product. The anti-glare tended to dull down the colors causing mismatches between similar shades of color, which increases production time due to corrections for picky customers. Proofing is ultimately done on color corrected CRTs to catch errors at the last minute before press. Neither LCD type is 100% in color correctness. Most of the hardcore artists insist on CRTs over LCDs, only the newer artists ask for LCDs, and that is mostly to save space in our little cubes.



    So in summary, those who are in the know choose CRT, all others, it's an aesthetic personal choice.
  • Reply 106 of 114
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trboyden View Post


    Most of the hardcore artists insist on CRTs over LCDs, only the newer artists ask for LCDs, and that is mostly to save space in our little cubes.



    How long will you be able to accomodate requests for CRTs, especially high quality ones? Last I heard, CRT studio monitors are no longer made, so they are on borrowed time, the ones in service now may last a long time but doesn't their quality degrade over time too?
  • Reply 107 of 114
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    How long will you be able to accomodate requests for CRTs, especially high quality ones? Last I heard, CRT studio monitors are no longer made, so they are on borrowed time, the ones in service now may last a long time but doesn't their quality degrade over time too?



    Well we have an entire upstairs temperature controlled storage area filled with about 50 of them. With around 10 - 15 artists, they should last awhile!



    I would agree that they are on borrowed time, and eventually for many reasons they will become impracticable. Quality wise though, with the constant calibrating we do - every production run - I don't believe degradation will be an issue, at least I have not seen any indication of that. But then again, like I said, we have plenty of spares.



    Unfortunately we haven't evaluated any affordable LCD product that would make a good replacement for our current CRTs. Kodak supposedly makes a perfect color match LCD, but it's like $10,000. Our profits are fairly slim with the slow advertising market, so that currently is not affordable for us and we have other purchasing priorities (like a new phone system to replace our aging Nortel PBX). But we also rely more on proofing sheets, and known color values. Every artist has a color sheet with printed values that are actually printed off our presses so they know what colors will reproduce like.



    The best comparison I can make is that our artists are going to need to learn to fly by instrument (IFR), as opposed to visual flight conditions (VFR). They'll have to learn to trust the values instead of the on-screen product. As I'm sure any pilot can attest, this is a difficult thing to teach, you have to trust the computer like the force!
  • Reply 108 of 114
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trboyden View Post


    The best comparison I can make is that our artists are going to need to learn to fly by instrument (IFR), as opposed to visual flight conditions (VFR). They'll have to learn to trust the values instead of the on-screen product.



    There you go. That has always been the most reliable method, because even the best CRTs cannot display accurate color since the display is RGB and the press is CYMK. Now, with excellent target curve calibration of highend inkjets, you can quickly get a very accurate proof.
  • Reply 109 of 114
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Shhhhh......



    While Mel's sleeping, I can now reveal that's he completely wrong about everything, all the time.





    And when he wakes up, he'll have to live with the fact that this statement stood unrebutted for some number of hours!







    Ah, my sneaky parrot!



    Well, I bought the new Apple keyboard, and iWork 08.



    Can't speak for iWork yet, but the keyboard is pretty good so far.



    I haven't had time to investigate it yet, but the brightness, Exposé, and Dashboard keys don't work, though the other placements do. I did install the new software, which you can't do unless the keyboard is plugged in, if you are doing it through Software Update.



    It feels very different to be sure.
  • Reply 110 of 114
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    First of all that first paragraph is SO condescending its unbelieveable.



    I don't know why you got involved in that.



    I was responding to his:



    "Originally Posted by Rot'nApple



    So instead of the $200.00 and $300.00 price break you'd be getting a $150.00 or $250.00 price break instead?!"



    He knew what I meant. It rightly didn't upset him.



    Quote:

    Second of all, if MORE SKUs mean an overall cost increase then why is it that other companies can produce a seemingly endless variety of MP3 players (for example) that almost always manage to cost LESS than an equivilant iPod? more SKUs costing less.

    It's about the bottom line, Apple margin, thats what it comes down to.



    You're not understanding the process. It has nothing to do with the price per se, it has to do with a small added cost to whatever it is.



    If a player costs $50, then it might add 25 cents. If the product costs $500 it might add $2.50. If it costs $5,000, it might add $25.



    It might not even be percentage related, in that it depends on what is being done.



    It doesn't prevent Apple or any others from making less expensive products. It just adds a small "fee" to the top.



    Quote:

    Ok then if you arn't in control of it and you wouldn't do what Apple have done, why are you so insistent on defending them?

    If theres no point in anyone arguing with you, does that also mean there is no point in you arguing with others? If so then please stop and give everyone else a chance



    You really have this entire thing wrong. At no time did I "defend" Apple. I simply gave one reason why they might have done this.



    When I said to argue with Apple about this, as I DID explain, it's because I'm just giving a reason why Apple might have done this, and as I have no control over what Apple does, it doesn't change anything to argue with me about it, because I don't agree with what Apple has done either.



    Your paragraph is condescending, as is the rolleyes when used in that context. so, you certainly have no right to comment on my statements as you have. I suppose you are one of those who don't recognize the error of your own ways while commenting on those of others.



    I'm not cutting off the opinions of anybody else. We are having a discussion about this. Sometimes we have agreed, and sometimes not.



    I'm not forcing you to post to me, that's your choice.



    Quote:

    Re SKUs the glass can be taken out with a suction cup type tool, yes? Then ship ALL the iMacs with Glossy if you must and simply stock the matte screen ONLY then in the Apple store, give the customer the option to swap it out and explain what it involves, 3/4 mins should do it, and it ONLY involves stocking some screens, which pack a LOT tighter in warehouses than the vast sea of unwanted matte screen iMacs that you invision. There are various options for making glass non-glossy at the factory, or if need be use a matte plastic, but the CUSTOMER gets the option, and last time I checked the customer was always right. unless of course Apple have changed this?



    Have you been a manufacturer? You don't want your customer removing a glass object like that and replacing it, due to the liability you will incur.



    Is Apple responsible for giving (lending) you the tool? Do you have to find, and buy your own?



    I had thought about the possibility of the Apple genius doing that for the customer, which would remove that liability. But, I can't see Apple wanting to do that either. It's an uncontrolled situation which could result in damage to the glass, the computer it's being put into, or injury to the worker.



    Quote:

    YOU haven't heard of it so it doesn't exist..



    Likewise what YOU are saying is true sometimes, but not all the time.



    Proper lighting conditions means exactly that—proper. Pretty simple, no?



    Quote:

    Re lighting conditions and my opinions of Apple.



    Apple is up against other PC manufacturers and M$ they offer a choice.

    Apple has its design goals it offers a better aesthetic choice.

    People who choose the iMac are making a decision in part based on aesthetic choice.



    Part of ones aesthetic choice in life is ones surroundings, lighting, window size, workspace placement etc.



    No argument there.



    Quote:

    Prior to the introduction of the glossy screen, one could place the iMac where it made sense from an aesthetic standpoint without the screen dictating placment choice. One could have a window to ones back for example, or other light source placed to enhance the room and user comfort within the workspace.



    This is I'm sure something his Steveness is aware of on at least a subconscious comfort level, if its not more in his front brain



    But now with the Glossy screen, one has to make sacrifices to the aesthetic comfort one has grown accustomed to. Which I feel rather jars against "The Apple Way"



    This is MY opinion, but I won't feel the need to endlessly defend it or keep proving my point over and over again, it is enough for me to state it and know that, for me, it is true.



    Goody for you.



    Few people here are interested in your opinion if they want to discuss it with you and question it, with you refusing to explain yourself, of give further explanation. That's what the forum is all about.



    If we all simply stated our positions, and never discussed, or even argued the points, AI would soon become a very lonely place.
  • Reply 111 of 114
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    Apple has so few stock product variations, and sells such a huge quantity of them, that it's hard to believe it would be a very expensive problem, in terms of cost per unit. If they had several dozen major products, then I would agree.



    It wouldn't be very expensive. But, if it adds $50 (that's just a very rough estimate, of course), Apple might figure that the numbers don't look right. They might feel that $1849, simply isn't as inviting at $1799.



    We know that the reason why Apple didn't add a better gpu, such as the 2600XT was because it would have added $40 to the cost of the machine. going to the 8600GTS would have added $65.



    With all their emphasis on gaming lately, with gaming people onstage, why wouldn't they have put a better gpu in?



    Cost. Above all, Apple considers cost.



    If they figured that the machine would sell with what is definitely a poorer gpu in the eyes of their customers, while lessening the quality of the game play, why wouldn't they do what they did with the screen?



    It's also possible that glossy glass, even with the anti-reflection and anti-scratch coatings is cheaper than the matte version.



    After all, a matte screen would alsobetter match the matte surface of the case.
  • Reply 112 of 114
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trboyden View Post


    While I'm here I'll also throw out my experience with a glossy MacBook...



    I bought a Black MacBook maxed out with all the options about a month after they first came out. I choose the glossy screen because I saw it in the Apple store and liked how it looked.



    I work in a direct mail print house (www.supercoups.com) as the Network Administrator and therefore have lots of experience with various display types and the effect they have on color output.



    I brought in my MacBook shortly after purchase to do some testing under the Intel environment with the applications we use. We have mostly fluorescent lighting and lots of windows which wreck havoc with color profiling. Overall I felt the glossy screen didn't create any more issues with color reproduction over any other display type. CRTs are still easier to color correct. My preference between the glossy and anti-glare LCDs is the glossy due to the colors matching more on screen to the printed product. The anti-glare tended to dull down the colors causing mismatches between similar shades of color, which increases production time due to corrections for picky customers. Proofing is ultimately done on color corrected CRTs to catch errors at the last minute before press. Neither LCD type is 100% in color correctness. Most of the hardcore artists insist on CRTs over LCDs, only the newer artists ask for LCDs, and that is mostly to save space in our little cubes.



    So in summary, those who are in the know choose CRT, all others, it's an aesthetic personal choice.



    Absolutely!
  • Reply 113 of 114
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    There you go. That has always been the most reliable method, because even the best CRTs cannot display accurate color since the display is RGB and the press is CYMK. Now, with excellent target curve calibration of highend inkjets, you can quickly get a very accurate proof.



    What he said is very true. Often when correcting, I would go by the numbers, and not even care about what colors I saw on the screen. Sometimes there simpy is no neutral to go by. We then have to use our knowledge and experience to correct.



    In one of his excellent books (Professional Photoshop) on Photoshop correction, Dan Margulis, one of the most well recognized experts in the field, said that he taught a color blind person to color correct using the numbers. I believe him.
  • Reply 114 of 114
    Actually I think it looks really sharp in black. Especially in person, it has a slightly evil and subversive presence, which I think is just perfect, as the day's of Apple being just a quirky goody-goody fluff company are changing. This is just the thing.



    I've also spent some time using the new iMac glossy screen, as well as the glossy screen on my new little MacBook (or maybe I should call is the BlackBook... Guess what? It works just great! Love it. Was very worried after using the matte screens of the MacBookPro and previous PowerBook, but it's really quite usable, and very sharp. Get over it!
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