moved: Microsoft and Apple: Some Straight Dope.
I read these forums a lot, more than I should, and I wanted to weigh in on the latest round of Microsoft conspiracy theorizing re: their buyout of Connectix. I'm posting this separately because I'm not speaking about that deal specifically, but about Microsoft and Apple's relationship in a larger context.
My credentials are simple: I know a lot of folks who work at Microsoft, including a couple of vice-presidents. They have made their opinions known to me on a number of occasions, and it is out of these talks and many beers that I bring this news to you:
MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.
Read that sentence again. Let it roll around in your mind.
The truth is that to MSFT, the war is over. They own the pie. The sharp ones there are concerned that web-based apps and Linux will swallow their pie, the same way they ate IBM's lunch. The majority are complacent releasing software that keeps bloating...not because they are fools (they aren't) but because they are BIG and locked into a cycle that required upgrades to an office suite that doesn't really need them. That and Office make all the money, and they know it--they are desperate for other streams of income.
MSFT doesn't notice Apple. The developer team for Longhorn had to have Rendezvous DEMONSTRATED for them before they believed it was possible that someone had implemented it like that. They are, on the dev side, archetypal PC weenies--that's the type of person that the company attracts. And they consider Apple a cute and interesting experiment that impacts their business dealings NOT AT ALL.
Gates may feel differently, but he doesn't run the ship day to day anymore. The folks on the ground are busy looking for money, keeping a giant ship pointed in the right direction and churning out software...not "sparring" with what (to them) is a miniscule platform.
The perception that Apple matters so much is because Apple does stuff that the tech media latches onto...which keeps Apple alive, and baffles MSFT a bit. In the end, though, they mostly don't care.
The most important point is the one all my friends there agree on: the Mac Business Unit is very, very profitable. Very. Though it isn't that large it nets a lot more cash than many other software divisions at MSFT, because Mac users pay more AND pirate less than Windows folk.
Though it may *look* like there is antagonism, MSFT would rather have Apple grow larger (though not too large...) and let them sell even more software--they make a lot more per head on that end.
...
I could go on at length, and I'm happy to answer specific questions about what my friends think the atmosphere at MSFT is like, but that just about covers it.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
My credentials are simple: I know a lot of folks who work at Microsoft, including a couple of vice-presidents. They have made their opinions known to me on a number of occasions, and it is out of these talks and many beers that I bring this news to you:
MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.
Read that sentence again. Let it roll around in your mind.
The truth is that to MSFT, the war is over. They own the pie. The sharp ones there are concerned that web-based apps and Linux will swallow their pie, the same way they ate IBM's lunch. The majority are complacent releasing software that keeps bloating...not because they are fools (they aren't) but because they are BIG and locked into a cycle that required upgrades to an office suite that doesn't really need them. That and Office make all the money, and they know it--they are desperate for other streams of income.
MSFT doesn't notice Apple. The developer team for Longhorn had to have Rendezvous DEMONSTRATED for them before they believed it was possible that someone had implemented it like that. They are, on the dev side, archetypal PC weenies--that's the type of person that the company attracts. And they consider Apple a cute and interesting experiment that impacts their business dealings NOT AT ALL.
Gates may feel differently, but he doesn't run the ship day to day anymore. The folks on the ground are busy looking for money, keeping a giant ship pointed in the right direction and churning out software...not "sparring" with what (to them) is a miniscule platform.
The perception that Apple matters so much is because Apple does stuff that the tech media latches onto...which keeps Apple alive, and baffles MSFT a bit. In the end, though, they mostly don't care.
The most important point is the one all my friends there agree on: the Mac Business Unit is very, very profitable. Very. Though it isn't that large it nets a lot more cash than many other software divisions at MSFT, because Mac users pay more AND pirate less than Windows folk.
Though it may *look* like there is antagonism, MSFT would rather have Apple grow larger (though not too large...) and let them sell even more software--they make a lot more per head on that end.
...
I could go on at length, and I'm happy to answer specific questions about what my friends think the atmosphere at MSFT is like, but that just about covers it.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
Comments
The only comment I'll make is that if the MacBU at Microsoft makes so much money, I don't understand why they don't spend a bit more money to optimize their software better for the Mac platform. I personally have not been satisfied with their offerings.
They make a lot of money pr capita, but the MacBU is still a small concern of MSFT's...and so doesn't warrant additional hiring or development. In MSFT's eyes they did Remote Desktop Client, Office, IE and now VirtualPC. Any improvements to these apps will wait until another (paid) version is due to be released.
That is the MSFT way...remember that Mac users have what, to MSFT, appear to be unnaturally high standards. And it is a small (but profitable) market. So it gets Office 11, in time...
...and IE when they get around to it.
MSFT doesn't care all that much if you're satisfied, to be frank. That really isn't their style.
<strong>MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.
Read that sentence again. Let it roll around in your mind.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, it's not just MS, unfortunately. I have contacts who are fairly senior executives at a number of top web portals and software companies. Even among the companies that produce Mac products, the Mac is barely a blip on the radar screen. When I tell my friend who is on the executive team of one of the big portals about problems I have accessing their site from my Mac, he gets a good chuckle.
Apple has great market share among people with high media presence (most of the high profile tech journalists use Macs, and when I was at the RSA Conference last year, I was amazed at how many of the influential people used Macs), but from a business perspective those in charge of making money from mass market software basically just don't care.
But Apple needs to care about Microsoft. Microsoft's dominance and Mac-platform products mean that Apple has to factor them into their plans.
Hence Switch, Safari and Keynote.
Apple is becoming more and more radical. In the long run, that's the only way for the platform to survive.
One day, hopefully, Microsoft WILL have to care about Apple.
Barto
The reason you can actually use your Macs is because people care about them. Otherwise there would be no applications and games.
Barto
How can you say this?
Of course Microsoft doesn't see Apple as a threat, but that hardly means they don't keep an eye on what Apple is doing!
Apple makes truly amazing hardware, and software! Why would MS completely ignore them? Anyone suggesting that MS is completely oblivious to what is going on in the Mac world is plain and simply. Crazy!
<strong>Microsoft doesn't care about Apple, but ordinary people DO.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In that same vein you could say that only 5% of people care about Macs. I know tons of people who still either laugh or simply can't believe it when I say I use a Mac.
It is nice to see a realistic perspective on the Microsoft - Apple relationship (or lack thereof). People who frequent these boards are obviously the epitome of Mac zealots (myself included) so it is hard to realize that Apple really isn't taken seriously in most circles (or even noticed for that matter).
Microsoft purchased Connectix to help their bid to break into the high-end server market - not because they are trying to cut off the air supply of Apple. VPC is gravy. That being said, it still doesn't make me feel much better about the long term prospects of VPC for the Mac. There are good reasons for Microsoft to keep developing it - and who better to develop a windows emulator than the creator of windows code? At the same time, there are equally good reasons to let it slide by the wayside - or start marketing it in more typical Microsoft fashion (1 OS per emulator anyone?). Only time will tell.
Connectix today - Macromedia (or Adobe) tomorrow? God I hope not.
Sorry to turn this thread towards the VPC thing - obviously that is why this thread started but I don't want to turn it into the same conversation that is going on in the VPC thread. Sorry!
Macs are well supported, and just because Apple doesn't have much market share doesn't mean they arn't taken "seriously".
And MS probably does keep an eye on Apple, if only as a zero-cost R&D lab
Barto
<strong>
In that same vein you could say that only 5% of people care about Macs. I know tons of people who still either laugh or simply can't believe it when I say I use a Mac.
It is nice to see a realistic perspective on the Microsoft - Apple relationship (or lack thereof). People who frequent these boards are obviously the epitome of Mac zealots (myself included) so it is hard to realize that Apple really isn't taken seriously in most circles (or even noticed for that matter).
Microsoft purchased Connectix to help their bid to break into the high-end server market - not because they are trying to cut off the air supply of Apple. VPC is gravy. That being said, it still doesn't make me feel much better about the long term prospects of VPC for the Mac. There are good reasons for Microsoft to keep developing it - and who better to develop a windows emulator than the creator of windows code? At the same time, there are equally good reasons to let it slide by the wayside - or start marketing it in more typical Microsoft fashion (1 OS per emulator anyone?). Only time will tell.
Connectix today - Macromedia (or Adobe) tomorrow? God I hope not.
Sorry to turn this thread towards the VPC thing - obviously that is why this thread started but I don't want to turn it into the same conversation that is going on in the VPC thread. Sorry!</strong><hr></blockquote>
can MS really stay a monopoly forever, i mean eventually industry will stop it or something will happen, like coke and pepsi, or maybe other electronic companies...hopefully apple is the pepsi, though i doubt it <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
ONLY if they promised to implement the features that make the mac great!
If they simply were bought out to erase them from the tech picture, well then I'd prefer it if M$ would just leave em alone.
The Mac is great. But of course Apple is a very small minority in the whole computing landscape, and in turn there isn't much developed for them in the tech world.
Windows is great, because it has market share, and lot's of it! If only they polished up Windows and made it as great as OS X, then I'd probably be using a PC.
<sigh>
<strong>Personnaly, I wouldn't mind seeing M$ buy out Apple.
ONLY if they promised to implement the features that make the mac great!
If they simply were bought out to erase them from the tech picture, well then I'd prefer it if M$ would just leave em alone.
The Mac is great. But of course Apple is a very small minority in the whole computing landscape, and in turn there isn't much developed for them in the tech world.
Windows is great, because it has market share, and lot's of it! If only they polished up Windows and made it as great as OS X, then I'd probably be using a PC.
<sigh></strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope you're joking.
<strong>Personnaly, I wouldn't mind seeing M$ buy out Apple.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, that's gonna be a tough sell on these boards. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>
can MS really stay a monopoly forever, i mean eventually industry will stop it or something will happen, like coke and pepsi, or maybe other electronic companies...hopefully apple is the pepsi, though i doubt it <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, IBM eventually toppled under its own weight in the 80's. They've made a wonderful comeback, but they hit the ground hard.
Everything that goes up will come down.
<strong>MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually that's pretty much a load of crap. Microsoft keeps a pretty close eye on Apple as do a lot of IT companies because they often save a great deal of money on R&D that way.
Even if that weren't true it has become increasingly obvious Microsoft keeps an eye on even their smallest competitors. You need only look at what they did with Opera on the MSN website to realise that.
As for Microsoft looking for new revenue sources that's really no suprise given the market environment.
That said if you get into the enterprise market, which is really what Microsoft cares most about right now Apple is a non-entity. It really depends where you look and what is going on in the market at a given time.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
<strong>
Well, IBM eventually toppled under its own weight in the 80's. They've made a wonderful comeback, but they hit the ground hard.
Everything that goes up will come down.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i'm going to agree with and reinstate this point. IBM was huge, larger than microsoft in some regards (especially with business). IBM systems were INCREDIBLY proprietary, far worse than Microsoft! No TCP/IP, Ethernet, etc. Nothing standards compliant. They had their proprietary terminals, proprietary protocols, heck, even proprietary cabling! None the less, IBM eventually fell...and they were entrenched as much as Microsoft (especially in business)
I'm not saying apple will eventually dominate, I don't think they will...but things will change, and market leaders will shift around...given TIME.
FYI...IBM Mainframes are becoming more and more popular once again. I, for one, hope IBM does very well. People who need powerful servers are loving the decentralized processing IBM can offer.
No. N. O.
They had to have Rendezvous demonstrated. They didn't know that Auto-Fill was in IE for Mac, and when the IE Win team saw it they were boggled.
I have a thousand of these stories...and I can tell you for certain that MSFT only notices Apple when they get kicked, and even then it is barely noticed.
"Even if that weren't true it has become increasingly obvious Microsoft keeps an eye on even their smallest competitors. You need only look at what they did with Opera on the MSN website to realise that."
Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there. I *do* know they don't care about developments on the Mac front, except within the MacBU.