" I think that MS does actually care about where Apple is going. They watch their every move because they need to copy it in their own way. MS is what Apple was but the equation MSFT= AAPL-12months."
The thing I'm telling you is that this is NOT the case--they really do not care or notice to any great degree.
<strong>MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.</strong><hr></blockquote>
'course not. That's why they changed the name of their "latest" and "greatest" OS to XP to steal thunder from X. That and the addition of the Aqua attempted look added to XP just to make it "feel" more Mac like.
MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.
?.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
funny - my first thought reading this line was: "How do other markets care, know or notice each other?"
e.g. fashion: one company "invents" trousers for women - the other will wait , until every woman wants to wear trousers; after a while, every taylor will produce trousers?- (no, this example is not meant as a joke).
e.g. cars: one company "invents" button-controlled gear shifting on the wheel (Porsche); except some "hardcore" drivers nobody needs this feature - so, no other company produces this item.-
what i want to say: in matter of "fashion" = design (hardware/software) i'm quite sure M$ is watching Apple; in matter of standards, M$ doesn't have to worry (except: Quicktime); in matter of market-share, M$ doesn't have to care at all (1% more or less - anyhow!!).
M$ missed the iNet hype - but a company this size is able to catch the leaving train. Apple has to be innovative in all sectors, and still is. the market niche designer/print/video is a good one. the iApp idea is/will be adopted by M$. the "everybody is a movie maker"idea is still unique Apple (hurray to FCExpress!). next stops: everybody is a painter, a book writer/publisher, a muscian.
M$ will not care - as long as they doesn't smell BIG bucks.- but who cares ;-)
<strong>They didn't know that Auto-Fill was in IE for Mac, and when the IE Win team saw it they were boggled.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If that's the best you can come up with you do need to keep trying. What the Windows section of the company knows about the MacBU's developments is kind of irrelevent considering their work is really just direct ports from the PC side. The MacBU has never really been about innovative development and there is no reason to care what they're doing.
That's a completely different issue to looking at what Apple itself is doing.
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>They had to have Rendezvous demonstrated.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what exactly? Unless you actually developed Rendezvous or worked with the ZeroConf working group I am pretty certain at some time you had to have rendezvous demonstrated to you. Technology demonstrations aren't anything new for any industry. The point is Microsoft looked when Apple released Rendezvous.
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>I have a thousand of these stories...and I can tell you for certain that MSFT only notices Apple when they get kicked, and even then it is barely noticed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I won't ask for the whole thousand but even half a dozen would be nice. Hey maybe you can even just find one or two worth a cent.
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there. I *do* know they don't care about developments on the Mac front, except within the MacBU.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh huh so the basis of your argument is they don't care about macs but they care about a smaller niche product in the form of Opera?
I have a feeling you really aren't meeting all that many executives. Good management stays abreast of what developments are being made around the place and public reactions. If it's worthy of note they'll eventually work on copying it. This is very common practice.
Now given Apple is a company that currently bases their business around innovation it is fair to say Microsoft execs, like those in a lot of IT companies, watch when Apple releases something. To turn a blind eye on such a R&D freebie would be negligent.
It isn't about watching any company in particular it's about watching the marketplace and developments as a whole and Microsoft's management does it as much as any company's.
"If that's the best you can come up with you do need to keep trying. What the Windows section of the company knows about the MacBU's developments is kind of irrelevent considering their work is really just direct ports from the PC side."
Well, that *would* be true, except that they did innovate--they had a one-click Auto Fill button, a feature I still wish was in more browsers.
"The MacBU has never really been about innovative development and there is no reason to care what they're doing."
And that is exactly the kind of attitude MSFT displays each and every day
"That's a completely different issue to looking at what Apple itself is doing."
Yes, except that it points to a pattern--if it is about the Mac, they really couldn't care less.
"Unless you actually developed Rendezvous or worked with the ZeroConf working group I am pretty certain at some time you had to have rendezvous demonstrated to you. Technology demonstrations aren't anything new for any industry. The point is Microsoft looked when Apple released Rendezvous."
Well, no, they didn't. An executive who wasn't even in the Longhorn group had to bring in two PowerBooks and show them Rendezvous--they didn't read about it in all the media, somehow, b/c they do not have the inclination to care. Even as the demo was about to happen the project lead was saying it wasn't possible.
Same exact thing with Quartz Extreme--in that case they actually laughed, and said that tech was at least 3-4 years away.
Then, I said:
"Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there. I *do* know they don't care about developments on the Mac front, except within the MacBU."
And you responded:
"So the basis of your argument is they don't care about macs but they care about a smaller niche product in the form of Opera?"
Maybe you didn't read the section you quoted from me...it says:
"Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there."
In other words, I don't know what their deal with Opera is--I'm just speculating. I only know about their opinions viz a viz the Mac because I have a vested interest in the platform.
"I have a feeling you really aren't meeting all that many executives."
Your insight is penetrating. Yes, you found me out--I'm a freaky troll who pretends he lived in Seattle for six years and pretends to know people at MSFT. I know a janitor, but I like to pretend he's Steve Ballmer.
"Good management stays abreast of what developments are being made around the place and public reactions. If it's worthy of note they'll eventually work on copying it. This is very common practice."
Yes, that does sound like good management. I think it is safe to say that one of my central contentions is that MSFT's management is not very good.
"Now given Apple is a company that currently bases their business around innovation it is fair to say Microsoft execs, like those in a lot of IT companies, watch when Apple releases something. To turn a blind eye on such a R&D freebie would be negligent."
Yes, they are negligent.
"It isn't about watching any company in particular it's about watching the marketplace and developments as a whole and Microsoft's management does it as much as any company's."
Yes, that would be the conventional thinking for any company. MSFT, however, is so large in the marketplace and as a company that it spends most of its time and energy looking inward...and even when it does look outward it sees only what it wants to see.
Uh...I know this thread was probably a spill over from the Connectix purchase, but should this be in General Discussion?
Regardless, I think for the most part, MS really doesn't care what Apple does. There is no imminent threat as long as Apple doesn't make inroads into mainstream business and governments.
They and rightly so see Apple as a niche product for a niche market catering primarily those who are either:
a) creative types
b) willing to pay more for hardware/software
c) posers
d) all of the above.
Now that's not a knock against Apple and it's users. The greatest asset Apple has is it's brand and reputation as an innovator. It's the many who buy into these principles who continue to support Apple regardless of price.
Microsoft and the rest of the PC industry will simply sit back and let Apple drive innovation while they own the bulk of the marketshare.
When I said I wouldn't mind seeing MS buy out Apple, I was thinking of how great the OS "could" be.
Right now Windows looks and feels like crap. Imagine if they were able to incorporate the two OS's into one awesome operating system.. Of course it's just a dream.
I mean, wouldn't we all like to see the features that Mac the mac great go mainstream? Can't a guy dream?
Back in 1998, I used to work for Microsoft and a channel of MacBU. (I will explain this in more detail below) I was a VPNS Systems Engineer working in tandem with AT&T WorldNet. Our division was responsible for creating/administrating the Microsoft's Global Roaming Tunnel Servers here in the Midwest using AT&T's pipes. Ok... So you get the jist of this.
Every Friday at developers meeting, we would discuss the weeks projects that each team was working on and the state of those projects. One team, "my team", was the Mac Division. It was our PRIME responsibility to ensure our VPN clients and Servers would stay compatible and connected with MACs running PPTP over our pipes. We understood (MicroSoft) that our clients used MACs as well to tunnel in to their corporate networks.
MacBU would keep in direct contact with Apple's networking developers, and pass this data on to us. So to make a long story short ... we kept an eye on everything Apple (network wise) was doing in order to:
1: ensure connectivity for our MAC users
2: pass this data over to R&D for further research. (both platforms)
I will say this, Back then, the code for a VPN client running on MAC was MUCH more stable and secure than that of a MS client.
Our Team DID care what Apple was doing, and we were PROUD that WE supported APPLE!
"So to make a long story short ... we kept an eye on everything Apple (network wise) was doing in order to:
1: ensure connectivity for our MAC users
2: pass this data over to R&D for further research. (both platforms)"
There is a world of difference between what coders and techs are doing, and how the corporate/executive branch plans strategy. I have no doubt there's a lot of Mac support in and around MSFT, as otherwise my life would be more difficult...I'm just saying that on a corporate level they don't think about Apple.
"Our Team DID care what Apple was doing, and we were PROUD that WE supported APPLE!"
Comments
The thing I'm telling you is that this is NOT the case--they really do not care or notice to any great degree.
<strong>MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.</strong><hr></blockquote>
'course not. That's why they changed the name of their "latest" and "greatest" OS to XP to steal thunder from X. That and the addition of the Aqua attempted look added to XP just to make it "feel" more Mac like.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
MICROSOFT DOES NOT CARE, KNOW OR NOTICE PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING APPLE DOES.
?.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
funny - my first thought reading this line was: "How do other markets care, know or notice each other?"
e.g. fashion: one company "invents" trousers for women - the other will wait , until every woman wants to wear trousers; after a while, every taylor will produce trousers?- (no, this example is not meant as a joke).
e.g. cars: one company "invents" button-controlled gear shifting on the wheel (Porsche); except some "hardcore" drivers nobody needs this feature - so, no other company produces this item.-
what i want to say: in matter of "fashion" = design (hardware/software) i'm quite sure M$ is watching Apple; in matter of standards, M$ doesn't have to worry (except: Quicktime); in matter of market-share, M$ doesn't have to care at all (1% more or less - anyhow!!).
M$ missed the iNet hype - but a company this size is able to catch the leaving train. Apple has to be innovative in all sectors, and still is. the market niche designer/print/video is a good one. the iApp idea is/will be adopted by M$. the "everybody is a movie maker"idea is still unique Apple (hurray to FCExpress!). next stops: everybody is a painter, a book writer/publisher, a muscian.
M$ will not care - as long as they doesn't smell BIG bucks.- but who cares ;-)
<strong>They didn't know that Auto-Fill was in IE for Mac, and when the IE Win team saw it they were boggled.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If that's the best you can come up with you do need to keep trying. What the Windows section of the company knows about the MacBU's developments is kind of irrelevent considering their work is really just direct ports from the PC side. The MacBU has never really been about innovative development and there is no reason to care what they're doing.
That's a completely different issue to looking at what Apple itself is doing.
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>They had to have Rendezvous demonstrated.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what exactly? Unless you actually developed Rendezvous or worked with the ZeroConf working group I am pretty certain at some time you had to have rendezvous demonstrated to you. Technology demonstrations aren't anything new for any industry. The point is Microsoft looked when Apple released Rendezvous.
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>I have a thousand of these stories...and I can tell you for certain that MSFT only notices Apple when they get kicked, and even then it is barely noticed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I won't ask for the whole thousand but even half a dozen would be nice. Hey maybe you can even just find one or two worth a cent.
[quote]Originally posted by mrmister:
<strong>Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there. I *do* know they don't care about developments on the Mac front, except within the MacBU.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh huh so the basis of your argument is they don't care about macs but they care about a smaller niche product in the form of Opera?
I have a feeling you really aren't meeting all that many executives. Good management stays abreast of what developments are being made around the place and public reactions. If it's worthy of note they'll eventually work on copying it. This is very common practice.
Now given Apple is a company that currently bases their business around innovation it is fair to say Microsoft execs, like those in a lot of IT companies, watch when Apple releases something. To turn a blind eye on such a R&D freebie would be negligent.
It isn't about watching any company in particular it's about watching the marketplace and developments as a whole and Microsoft's management does it as much as any company's.
Well, that *would* be true, except that they did innovate--they had a one-click Auto Fill button, a feature I still wish was in more browsers.
"The MacBU has never really been about innovative development and there is no reason to care what they're doing."
And that is exactly the kind of attitude MSFT displays each and every day
"That's a completely different issue to looking at what Apple itself is doing."
Yes, except that it points to a pattern--if it is about the Mac, they really couldn't care less.
"Unless you actually developed Rendezvous or worked with the ZeroConf working group I am pretty certain at some time you had to have rendezvous demonstrated to you. Technology demonstrations aren't anything new for any industry. The point is Microsoft looked when Apple released Rendezvous."
Well, no, they didn't. An executive who wasn't even in the Longhorn group had to bring in two PowerBooks and show them Rendezvous--they didn't read about it in all the media, somehow, b/c they do not have the inclination to care. Even as the demo was about to happen the project lead was saying it wasn't possible.
Same exact thing with Quartz Extreme--in that case they actually laughed, and said that tech was at least 3-4 years away.
Then, I said:
"Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there. I *do* know they don't care about developments on the Mac front, except within the MacBU."
And you responded:
"So the basis of your argument is they don't care about macs but they care about a smaller niche product in the form of Opera?"
Maybe you didn't read the section you quoted from me...it says:
"Opera runs on Windows machines and competes with IE...I don't know what they are all about over there."
In other words, I don't know what their deal with Opera is--I'm just speculating. I only know about their opinions viz a viz the Mac because I have a vested interest in the platform.
"I have a feeling you really aren't meeting all that many executives."
Your insight is penetrating. Yes, you found me out--I'm a freaky troll who pretends he lived in Seattle for six years and pretends to know people at MSFT. I know a janitor, but I like to pretend he's Steve Ballmer.
"Good management stays abreast of what developments are being made around the place and public reactions. If it's worthy of note they'll eventually work on copying it. This is very common practice."
Yes, that does sound like good management. I think it is safe to say that one of my central contentions is that MSFT's management is not very good.
"Now given Apple is a company that currently bases their business around innovation it is fair to say Microsoft execs, like those in a lot of IT companies, watch when Apple releases something. To turn a blind eye on such a R&D freebie would be negligent."
Yes, they are negligent.
"It isn't about watching any company in particular it's about watching the marketplace and developments as a whole and Microsoft's management does it as much as any company's."
Yes, that would be the conventional thinking for any company. MSFT, however, is so large in the marketplace and as a company that it spends most of its time and energy looking inward...and even when it does look outward it sees only what it wants to see.
Regardless, I think for the most part, MS really doesn't care what Apple does. There is no imminent threat as long as Apple doesn't make inroads into mainstream business and governments.
They and rightly so see Apple as a niche product for a niche market catering primarily those who are either:
a) creative types
b) willing to pay more for hardware/software
c) posers
d) all of the above.
Now that's not a knock against Apple and it's users. The greatest asset Apple has is it's brand and reputation as an innovator. It's the many who buy into these principles who continue to support Apple regardless of price.
Microsoft and the rest of the PC industry will simply sit back and let Apple drive innovation while they own the bulk of the marketshare.
Hold on a minute.
When I said I wouldn't mind seeing MS buy out Apple, I was thinking of how great the OS "could" be.
Right now Windows looks and feels like crap. Imagine if they were able to incorporate the two OS's into one awesome operating system.. Of course it's just a dream.
I mean, wouldn't we all like to see the features that Mac the mac great go mainstream? Can't a guy dream?
Back in 1998, I used to work for Microsoft and a channel of MacBU. (I will explain this in more detail below) I was a VPNS Systems Engineer working in tandem with AT&T WorldNet. Our division was responsible for creating/administrating the Microsoft's Global Roaming Tunnel Servers here in the Midwest using AT&T's pipes. Ok... So you get the jist of this.
Every Friday at developers meeting, we would discuss the weeks projects that each team was working on and the state of those projects. One team, "my team", was the Mac Division. It was our PRIME responsibility to ensure our VPN clients and Servers would stay compatible and connected with MACs running PPTP over our pipes. We understood (MicroSoft) that our clients used MACs as well to tunnel in to their corporate networks.
MacBU would keep in direct contact with Apple's networking developers, and pass this data on to us. So to make a long story short ... we kept an eye on everything Apple (network wise) was doing in order to:
1: ensure connectivity for our MAC users
2: pass this data over to R&D for further research. (both platforms)
I will say this, Back then, the code for a VPN client running on MAC was MUCH more stable and secure than that of a MS client.
Our Team DID care what Apple was doing, and we were PROUD that WE supported APPLE!
1: ensure connectivity for our MAC users
2: pass this data over to R&D for further research. (both platforms)"
There is a world of difference between what coders and techs are doing, and how the corporate/executive branch plans strategy. I have no doubt there's a lot of Mac support in and around MSFT, as otherwise my life would be more difficult...I'm just saying that on a corporate level they don't think about Apple.
"Our Team DID care what Apple was doing, and we were PROUD that WE supported APPLE!"
That's nice.
<strong>but should this be in General Discussion?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yup. That's how I see it.
Moving now.