Apple and customers would be better served by a more polished Sketch app ideally. Though Apple does have its own drawing/polygon objects in Cocoa-- beziers and stuff. So more flexible drawing tools are certainly available to Keynote. I think just having a simple bezier line tool would quiet a lot of the criticism. Add boolean operations on them, and what more do you need that doesn't call for a separate application altogether?
<strong>The drawing tools suck. As much as the tools in PP suck the ones in Safari are even more limited. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Pssst. I think you mean Keynote.
[quote]<strong>I can't transform the shapes as needed to diagram what I want. I can in PP with some work.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And OmniGraffle with even less work.
[quote]<strong>If all I wanted to do was put up some text and pics and maybe a movie Keynote would be fine but most of all I like to draw schematics of what I'm talking about. With Safari I can't even draw the basics of what I need.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Psssst... aw, nevermind.
[quote]<strong>Also I think $100 is way WAY too much for this almost not beta software.
Hey everyone! Just because Apple makes it doesn't mean it's the greatest thing since the Apple ][ </strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope, the fact that I can whip up a killer presentation in a lot less time than I can in PP is why I love it.
Seriously, you *CAN'T* be serious about diagramming if you're trying to use *PowerPoint's* drawing tools. I mean come on, talk about suckage... I wanted to use *anything* else, but PP doesn't play well with the other children. Importing graphics is a) a pain, and b) often times looks *horrible*. MS wants to lock you into their tools 100%. Sounds like you took the bait.
I tried with that software. Tried to draw one of the most basic things I need. Couldn't do it. Couldn't figgure it out at least. Spent some time on it. Plus I have PP for free everywhere. So why bother?
Seriously people, PP's drawing tools bite. They lock you into using PP for all your drawing, period. If PP doesn't offer something you need, then you're up a creek.
Keynote lets you use whatever tool meets your needs, and drag and drop in the final image. Voila.
And Scott, you really can't be serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really. Ah, I guess getting it for free dulls the pain though.
Okay, I'll bite... what were you trying to do that OG couldn't, but PP could? You've got my curiosity piqued. Heck, you may have actually found something, in which case either I can possibly point you to a solution, or we can double-team OmniGroup with bug reports.
<strong>Seriously people, PP's drawing tools bite. They lock you into using PP for all your drawing, period. If PP doesn't offer something you need, then you're up a creek.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If I may attempt some diplomacy, Keynote's drawing stools are basic but leegant. PowerPoint's drawing tools are a bit clumsy but more numerous.
The whole idea of Microsoft's approach to its software is that you use an application until you are finished -- that users do not and should not leave that environment for anything. So they provide a huge range of tools in each app. Those tools are redundant with one another, and are sometimes (OK, often) inconsistent with each other too. OS X's objects allow standard elements in each app (e.g., font panel, color panel, drawing tools, formatting tools, rulers, etc.). So while OS X does some similar things for basic tools, and makes sure they are kept consistent, they assume that users will mix and match the best tools for the job for anything more advanced. I am truly babbling now.....
MS = throw everything into every app, regardless of whether the functionality is best served by a different app. God forbid that if you give the user choice of what app to use, they might choose a non-MS app. Hence, offer up everything but the kitchen sink, and hope that they make do and stick around. (Not that they have much choice, really...)
Apple = a lot of smaller apps that do specific jobs well, but work well with each other. Grab the app tailored to your specific job at hand, then toss the result into another app for further massaging. End result: user gets to choose the app they need for their specialized task.
Keynote offers a *very* basic set of drawing tools (more like shape objects to toss on), because it doesn't expect to meet everyone's needs. If you have something more complex, use a more dedicated app. OmniGraffle draws. iMovie edits video. Keynote presents. I'd like to see Apple come out with a simple drawing app for producing diagrams, but OG is just suhweet for everything I've thrown at it. (Ken, can I get my next major upgrade free now? )
And Scott, you really can't be serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really. Ah, I guess getting it for free dulls the pain though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not I'm not " serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really" because that's not what I said at all. Unless you consider Keynote a "dedicated drawing app" which I don't.
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>Okay, I'll bite... what were you trying to do that OG couldn't, but PP could? You've got my curiosity piqued. Heck, you may have actually found something, in which case either I can possibly point you to a solution, or we can double-team OmniGroup with bug reports.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think I was trying to skew a rectangle. From this | | to this / / in Keynote. Couldn't figure it out.
<strong>Not I'm not " serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really" because that's not what I said at all. Unless you consider Keynote a "dedicated drawing app" which I don't.</strong><hr></blockquote>
D'oh, my bad. I could swear that you were comparing the drawing tools in PP to those in an external drawing app. Reading back, you didn't. Sorry 'bout that.
[quote]<strong>I think I was trying to skew a rectangle. From this | | to this / / in Keynote. Couldn't figure it out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope, it can't do it. Closest you can get is to create a right triangle, stretch it to the right angles, size it to the right size, copy/paste then flip the copy and group them together. *whew*
I'd recommend using another app, then dragging the drawing in. Works very nicely.
Although I did find a bug today in doing this... some colors got screwed up. Same screwup when pasting into TextEdit, so I suspect its a bug in OmniGraffle.
Comments
<strong>The drawing tools suck. As much as the tools in PP suck the ones in Safari are even more limited. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Pssst. I think you mean Keynote.
[quote]<strong>I can't transform the shapes as needed to diagram what I want. I can in PP with some work.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And OmniGraffle with even less work.
[quote]<strong>If all I wanted to do was put up some text and pics and maybe a movie Keynote would be fine but most of all I like to draw schematics of what I'm talking about. With Safari I can't even draw the basics of what I need.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Psssst... aw, nevermind.
[quote]<strong>Also I think $100 is way WAY too much for this almost not beta software.
Hey everyone! Just because Apple makes it doesn't mean it's the greatest thing since the Apple ][
Nope, the fact that I can whip up a killer presentation in a lot less time than I can in PP is why I love it.
Seriously, you *CAN'T* be serious about diagramming if you're trying to use *PowerPoint's* drawing tools. I mean come on, talk about suckage... I wanted to use *anything* else, but PP doesn't play well with the other children. Importing graphics is a) a pain, and b) often times looks *horrible*. MS wants to lock you into their tools 100%. Sounds like you took the bait.
<strong>... MS wants to lock you into their tools 100%. Sounds like you took the bait.
No I didn't take any bait a-hole. I just used Apple software and found it laking. I hate PP but I can't do what I need with Keynote.
Seriously people, PP's drawing tools bite. They lock you into using PP for all your drawing, period. If PP doesn't offer something you need, then you're up a creek.
Keynote lets you use whatever tool meets your needs, and drag and drop in the final image. Voila.
And Scott, you really can't be serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really. Ah, I guess getting it for free dulls the pain though.
Okay, I'll bite... what were you trying to do that OG couldn't, but PP could? You've got my curiosity piqued. Heck, you may have actually found something, in which case either I can possibly point you to a solution, or we can double-team OmniGroup with bug reports.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
<strong>Seriously people, PP's drawing tools bite. They lock you into using PP for all your drawing, period. If PP doesn't offer something you need, then you're up a creek.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If I may attempt some diplomacy, Keynote's drawing stools are basic but leegant. PowerPoint's drawing tools are a bit clumsy but more numerous.
The whole idea of Microsoft's approach to its software is that you use an application until you are finished -- that users do not and should not leave that environment for anything. So they provide a huge range of tools in each app. Those tools are redundant with one another, and are sometimes (OK, often) inconsistent with each other too. OS X's objects allow standard elements in each app (e.g., font panel, color panel, drawing tools, formatting tools, rulers, etc.). So while OS X does some similar things for basic tools, and makes sure they are kept consistent, they assume that users will mix and match the best tools for the job for anything more advanced. I am truly babbling now.....
MS = throw everything into every app, regardless of whether the functionality is best served by a different app. God forbid that if you give the user choice of what app to use, they might choose a non-MS app. Hence, offer up everything but the kitchen sink, and hope that they make do and stick around. (Not that they have much choice, really...)
Apple = a lot of smaller apps that do specific jobs well, but work well with each other. Grab the app tailored to your specific job at hand, then toss the result into another app for further massaging. End result: user gets to choose the app they need for their specialized task.
Keynote offers a *very* basic set of drawing tools (more like shape objects to toss on), because it doesn't expect to meet everyone's needs. If you have something more complex, use a more dedicated app. OmniGraffle draws. iMovie edits video. Keynote presents. I'd like to see Apple come out with a simple drawing app for producing diagrams, but OG is just suhweet for everything I've thrown at it. (Ken, can I get my next major upgrade free now?
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
<strong>...
And Scott, you really can't be serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really. Ah, I guess getting it for free dulls the pain though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not I'm not " serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really" because that's not what I said at all. Unless you consider Keynote a "dedicated drawing app" which I don't.
[quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:
<strong>Okay, I'll bite... what were you trying to do that OG couldn't, but PP could? You've got my curiosity piqued. Heck, you may have actually found something, in which case either I can possibly point you to a solution, or we can double-team OmniGroup with bug reports.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think I was trying to skew a rectangle. From this | | to this / / in Keynote. Couldn't figure it out.
<strong>Not I'm not " serious that PP's drawing tools could do something easily that a dedicated drawing app couldn't... I mean really" because that's not what I said at all. Unless you consider Keynote a "dedicated drawing app" which I don't.</strong><hr></blockquote>
D'oh, my bad. I could swear that you were comparing the drawing tools in PP to those in an external drawing app. Reading back, you didn't. Sorry 'bout that.
[quote]<strong>I think I was trying to skew a rectangle. From this | | to this / / in Keynote. Couldn't figure it out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope, it can't do it. Closest you can get is to create a right triangle, stretch it to the right angles, size it to the right size, copy/paste then flip the copy and group them together. *whew*
I'd recommend using another app, then dragging the drawing in. Works very nicely.
Although I did find a bug today in doing this... some colors got screwed up. Same screwup when pasting into TextEdit, so I suspect its a bug in OmniGraffle.
<strong>How could someone misspell "tried"? Tell me the education system hasn't been shot to hell.</strong><hr></blockquote>
WHO CARES! Are you his mother? Do you know what country he's posting from? Age?