So what is on the horizon by way of future CPU's in the iPhone? Memory cant be a problem, there must be plenty already to do what the iPhone does. Are there any constraints (like Bill Aitkinson with Quickdraw on a 1984 128K Mac).
Pete
It depends on where they want to go with this. If they really want to keep it closed, then they don't have to do much for a while.
If Apple releases an official SDK then that's the one most folks will migrate to because it will offer full development support. They can't actually lose control of their own platform because they can simply modify OSX to break other SDKs by requiring a digitital signature to run. After that any hacking by 3rd party SDKs runs afoul DMCA. At least in the US.
DMCA:
Quote:
?(f) Reverse Engineering.?(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
?(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.
?(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
?(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ?interoperability? means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
Pretty much the only part of flash I miss on the iPhone is video. With the adoption of H.264 Adobe offers a way for it to be supported on the iPhone. Hopefully Adobe will promote the use of H.264 across the industry.
I'm neutral on the rest of flash. But I certainly do not miss all of the movement and swishes that normally come with flash site.
With the adoption of H.264 Adobe offers a way for it to be supported on the iPhone.
I don't follow. The iPhone supports H.264 regardless of anything Adobe has or hasn't done.
But you're apparently talking about the H.264 codec inside the next generation Flash player. That will be irrelevant in terms of Flash content that's already out in the wild using Adobe's previous codec.
To put a fine point on it: If Apple did release a Flash player for the iPhone which supported Adobe's H.264 extension but none of the rest of "legacy" Flash, then you'd effectively be getting two white elephants:
1) An extra layer of indirection and complication in gaining access to content (H.264 video) which is already more easily available on the iPhone by other means.
2) A crippled Flash player that cannot deal with any of the existing content that doesn't contain H.264 video. It may also struggle with new content that does contain H.264 video, but wrapped inside other features of Flash (eg vector graphics or action script) without which you may not be able to gain access to / control over the video stream itself.
I don't follow. The iPhone supports H.264 regardless of anything Adobe has or hasn't done.
I'm confused where this question comes from. My point is about the iPhone not supporting flash not H.264.
Quote:
To put a fine point on it: If Apple did release a Flash player for the iPhone which supported Adobe's H.264 extension but none of the rest of "legacy" Flash, then you'd effectively be getting two white elephants:
Yes the only way I can see Apple supporting flash video is with H.264. And no they will likely never support the previous On2 codec. A better situation than having the ability to play nothing now.
Quote:
An extra layer of indirection and complication in gaining access to content (H.264 video) which is already more easily available on the iPhone by other means.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The iPhone would still play other H.264 video sources the same as it does now.
I'm confused where this question comes from. My point is about the iPhone not supporting flash not H.264.
You had suggested that Adobe formally supporting H.264 would be an impetus to Apple supporting Flash on the iPhone. I don't see a cause-effect relationship there.
The iPhone already plays H.264 video, regardless of Flash's support. We both agree on that point.
Adding Flash support, and then enabling only the capability of playing back H.264 content would be pointless, since it'd be needlessly wrapping the H.264 content around an additional layer of indirection (the Flash delivery method). Since one can already play back the H.264 content directly, why bother bringing Flash into the picture in the first place?
Instead, it would be more productive to encourage the industry to abandon Flash entirely, rather than willingly contribute to incompatibilities in the ecosystem.
The only benefit I could see to incorporating Flash in the iPhone, under any circumstance, would be if access to the legacy or interactive content were bundled in too.
Adding Flash support, and then enabling only the capability of playing back H.264 content would be pointless, since it'd be needlessly wrapping the H.264 content around an additional layer of indirection (the Flash delivery method).
The point is that flash is the most ubiquitous streaming technology on the web. There is a lot of content that cannot be seen on the iPhone because of the lack of flash support.
From what I understand H.264 is a better encoding technology than On2 VP6. If Adobe pushes its adoption, in the near future it may become the more ubiquitous codec and we will be able to see most all flash content on the iPhone.
Eventually, I changed browsers (so I would at least see a placeholder for Flash) and loaded the main page, then clicked on one of the story links. I reloaded a few times and never saw a Toshiba ad, but did see a small ATI Flash ad on the right side. Is there a point to this? ;-)
Oh, and the ATI ad was moderately annoying because it keeps flash-cycling text, but not horrendously bad like so many others.
Eventually, I changed browsers (so I would at least see a placeholder for Flash) and loaded the main page, then clicked on one of the story links. I reloaded a few times and never saw a Toshiba ad, but did see a small ATI Flash ad on the right side. Is there a point to this? ;-)
Oh, and the ATI ad was moderately annoying because it keeps flash-cycling text, but not horrendously bad like so many others.
Ok, I see the problem.
We were talking about annoying Flash ads.
There is an ad for Toshiba laptops on that site. It normally appears at the right side in a vertical column.
There is a moving picture of a guy playing a guitar in the laptop's screen, inside of the ad.
So far so good, right? Slightly annoying, but no biggie.
But then, the guy WALKS OUT of the screen, to the left, as he grows bigger, and stays there, moving around, playing his guitar OVER the text that you're trying to read!!!
He stays for about 15 seconds, or so, before moving back into the ad itself, and back into the screen.
Now, that's THE most annoying ad I've ever seen. But, it doesn't seem to be turning up all of the time.
There is an ad for Toshiba laptops on that site. It normally appears at the right side in a vertical column.
There is a moving picture of a guy playing a guitar in the laptop's screen, inside of the ad.
So far so good, right? Slightly annoying, but no biggie.
But then, the guy WALKS OUT of the screen, to the left, as he grows bigger, and stays there, moving around, playing his guitar OVER the text that you're trying to read!!!
He stays for about 15 seconds, or so, before moving back into the ad itself, and back into the screen.
Now, that's THE most annoying ad I've ever seen. But, it doesn't seem to be turning up all of the time.
Ouch, that sounds totally, obnoxiously overboard. I'd almost want to see it, but in the same way that you're drawn to peer at a traffic accident. Or to look at "The world's worst web site" or some other such atrocity.
But.... are you sure that's Flash? AFAIK, Flash, like Java applets, are restricted to their little rectangular region of the page, period. Javascript, on the other hand, can extend its reach to all areas of the screen, if allowed.
Ouch, that sounds totally, obnoxiously overboard. I'd almost want to see it, but in the same way that you're drawn to peer at a traffic accident. Or to look at "The world's worst web site" or some other such atrocity.
But.... are you sure that's Flash? AFAIK, Flash, like Java applets, are restricted to their little rectangular region of the page, period. Javascript, on the other hand, can extend its reach to all areas of the screen, if allowed.
I don't now. But who says that the boundary has to be obvious? It could be transparent, and overlapping the text column.
However, it looks like you -can- do that with Flash ( http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/view...4201&sliceId=2 ) in SOME browsers. Not willing to dig deeper on this right now to see if other modern browsers support this or not, but it does look like it's possible in at least some scenarios.
Comments
So what is on the horizon by way of future CPU's in the iPhone? Memory cant be a problem, there must be plenty already to do what the iPhone does. Are there any constraints (like Bill Aitkinson with Quickdraw on a 1984 128K Mac).
Pete
It depends on where they want to go with this. If they really want to keep it closed, then they don't have to do much for a while.
If Apple releases an official SDK then that's the one most folks will migrate to because it will offer full development support. They can't actually lose control of their own platform because they can simply modify OSX to break other SDKs by requiring a digitital signature to run. After that any hacking by 3rd party SDKs runs afoul DMCA. At least in the US.
DMCA:
?(f) Reverse Engineering.?(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
?(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.
?(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
?(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ?interoperability? means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
Half the guys here want Flash, and half don't.
Hmmm!
Pretty much the only part of flash I miss on the iPhone is video. With the adoption of H.264 Adobe offers a way for it to be supported on the iPhone. Hopefully Adobe will promote the use of H.264 across the industry.
I'm neutral on the rest of flash. But I certainly do not miss all of the movement and swishes that normally come with flash site.
With the adoption of H.264 Adobe offers a way for it to be supported on the iPhone.
I don't follow. The iPhone supports H.264 regardless of anything Adobe has or hasn't done.
But you're apparently talking about the H.264 codec inside the next generation Flash player. That will be irrelevant in terms of Flash content that's already out in the wild using Adobe's previous codec.
To put a fine point on it: If Apple did release a Flash player for the iPhone which supported Adobe's H.264 extension but none of the rest of "legacy" Flash, then you'd effectively be getting two white elephants:
1) An extra layer of indirection and complication in gaining access to content (H.264 video) which is already more easily available on the iPhone by other means.
2) A crippled Flash player that cannot deal with any of the existing content that doesn't contain H.264 video. It may also struggle with new content that does contain H.264 video, but wrapped inside other features of Flash (eg vector graphics or action script) without which you may not be able to gain access to / control over the video stream itself.
I don't follow. The iPhone supports H.264 regardless of anything Adobe has or hasn't done.
I'm confused where this question comes from. My point is about the iPhone not supporting flash not H.264.
To put a fine point on it: If Apple did release a Flash player for the iPhone which supported Adobe's H.264 extension but none of the rest of "legacy" Flash, then you'd effectively be getting two white elephants:
Yes the only way I can see Apple supporting flash video is with H.264. And no they will likely never support the previous On2 codec. A better situation than having the ability to play nothing now.
An extra layer of indirection and complication in gaining access to content (H.264 video) which is already more easily available on the iPhone by other means.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The iPhone would still play other H.264 video sources the same as it does now.
I'm confused where this question comes from. My point is about the iPhone not supporting flash not H.264.
You had suggested that Adobe formally supporting H.264 would be an impetus to Apple supporting Flash on the iPhone. I don't see a cause-effect relationship there.
The iPhone already plays H.264 video, regardless of Flash's support. We both agree on that point.
Adding Flash support, and then enabling only the capability of playing back H.264 content would be pointless, since it'd be needlessly wrapping the H.264 content around an additional layer of indirection (the Flash delivery method). Since one can already play back the H.264 content directly, why bother bringing Flash into the picture in the first place?
Instead, it would be more productive to encourage the industry to abandon Flash entirely, rather than willingly contribute to incompatibilities in the ecosystem.
The only benefit I could see to incorporating Flash in the iPhone, under any circumstance, would be if access to the legacy or interactive content were bundled in too.
Adding Flash support, and then enabling only the capability of playing back H.264 content would be pointless, since it'd be needlessly wrapping the H.264 content around an additional layer of indirection (the Flash delivery method).
The point is that flash is the most ubiquitous streaming technology on the web. There is a lot of content that cannot be seen on the iPhone because of the lack of flash support.
From what I understand H.264 is a better encoding technology than On2 VP6. If Adobe pushes its adoption, in the near future it may become the more ubiquitous codec and we will be able to see most all flash content on the iPhone.
I haven't checked to see if this is using flash or not, but check out that Toshiba ad on the right. Give it e few seconds to get going.
If another ad appears, try theInquiresite directly, and click on something.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=42269
Ahh, when I tried my direct link, the ad doesn't show.
try the home page first.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?rfp=dta
Not sure I get what you're after....
Eventually, I changed browsers (so I would at least see a placeholder for Flash) and loaded the main page, then clicked on one of the story links. I reloaded a few times and never saw a Toshiba ad, but did see a small ATI Flash ad on the right side. Is there a point to this? ;-)
Oh, and the ATI ad was moderately annoying because it keeps flash-cycling text, but not horrendously bad like so many others.
Not sure I get what you're after....
Eventually, I changed browsers (so I would at least see a placeholder for Flash) and loaded the main page, then clicked on one of the story links. I reloaded a few times and never saw a Toshiba ad, but did see a small ATI Flash ad on the right side. Is there a point to this? ;-)
Oh, and the ATI ad was moderately annoying because it keeps flash-cycling text, but not horrendously bad like so many others.
Ok, I see the problem.
We were talking about annoying Flash ads.
There is an ad for Toshiba laptops on that site. It normally appears at the right side in a vertical column.
There is a moving picture of a guy playing a guitar in the laptop's screen, inside of the ad.
So far so good, right? Slightly annoying, but no biggie.
But then, the guy WALKS OUT of the screen, to the left, as he grows bigger, and stays there, moving around, playing his guitar OVER the text that you're trying to read!!!
He stays for about 15 seconds, or so, before moving back into the ad itself, and back into the screen.
Now, that's THE most annoying ad I've ever seen. But, it doesn't seem to be turning up all of the time.
Ok, I see the problem.
We were talking about annoying Flash ads.
There is an ad for Toshiba laptops on that site. It normally appears at the right side in a vertical column.
There is a moving picture of a guy playing a guitar in the laptop's screen, inside of the ad.
So far so good, right? Slightly annoying, but no biggie.
But then, the guy WALKS OUT of the screen, to the left, as he grows bigger, and stays there, moving around, playing his guitar OVER the text that you're trying to read!!!
He stays for about 15 seconds, or so, before moving back into the ad itself, and back into the screen.
Now, that's THE most annoying ad I've ever seen. But, it doesn't seem to be turning up all of the time.
Ouch, that sounds totally, obnoxiously overboard. I'd almost want to see it, but in the same way that you're drawn to peer at a traffic accident. Or to look at "The world's worst web site" or some other such atrocity.
But.... are you sure that's Flash? AFAIK, Flash, like Java applets, are restricted to their little rectangular region of the page, period. Javascript, on the other hand, can extend its reach to all areas of the screen, if allowed.
Ouch, that sounds totally, obnoxiously overboard. I'd almost want to see it, but in the same way that you're drawn to peer at a traffic accident. Or to look at "The world's worst web site" or some other such atrocity.
But.... are you sure that's Flash? AFAIK, Flash, like Java applets, are restricted to their little rectangular region of the page, period. Javascript, on the other hand, can extend its reach to all areas of the screen, if allowed.
I don't now. But who says that the boundary has to be obvious? It could be transparent, and overlapping the text column.
I don't now. But who says that the boundary has to be obvious? It could be transparent, and overlapping the text column.
Interesting. I knew offhand that it's not possible to do that with applets ( http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp...ssageID=529676 old, but AFAIK accurate )
However, it looks like you -can- do that with Flash ( http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/view...4201&sliceId=2 ) in SOME browsers. Not willing to dig deeper on this right now to see if other modern browsers support this or not, but it does look like it's possible in at least some scenarios.
Yet another reason to disable Flash.... !