Even though it's already sold over a million units and Apple's stock prices are pretty high, I really think this is taking a hit on Apple for the long term.
One thing I do wonder is this: What are the "terms of service" in the box of an unactivated iPhone? Does it say, "thou shalt not hacktivate this on another cell carrier or we'll brick your phone!"?
Americans are allowed to unlock their locked phones. Apple has damaged these people's property and gone against that nationwide permissible action. Not good, people.
"Or we'll brick your phone"
Criticism of Apple is justified but "or we'll brick your phone" is complete bullshit and you should be ashamed for making such an argument.
Criticize Apple all you want for their update not working on hacked phones. That is justified. However, they don't force you to update so quit pretending to be a bigger victim than you actual are.
Apple made good sense partnering with ATT. Apple needed the knowledge of the orifice that they were about to penetrate. Once there they could make deals with other telcos.
In a few years I am sure, apple will sell unlocked phones. It will be when it suits them and not a moment before.
Let me get this straight... what you're saying is:
"In spite of evidence that the iPhone is a success and the company is profiting from it's decisions by having stock prices at levels never before reached, I think it is a mistake".
Kinda makes it hard to defend a position when the evidence doesn't support it, doesn't it?
There's a difference between financial success now and financial success in the future. The difference? Public relations.
Apple has thoroughly f'ed themselves over with this one. And if 1.1.1 was the only mistake they've made in the past year then it'd be a whole different thing. But look how many decisions Apple's made lately that have pissed off more than one portion of their user base.
This was the straw that broke the camel's back. They made a deal with the devil so that iPhones can have Visual Voicemail when every other function of the phone would have worked on any GSM network with EDGE WORLDWIDE, they released a completely revamped and crippled version of iMovie, they kicked every early adopter in the rear by dropping the iPhone's price by 1/3 two months after its release, and then they intentionally tried to brick unlocked iPhones because some users decided not to activate their unactivated iPhones with the carrier that Apple teamed up with.
Apple's in the business to make money. Apple will make money when they sell products to their customers. Customers will buy products when they believe in the products being sold and the company selling them. Apple's customers are seriously starting to disbelieve as of Thursday, Sept. 27, 2007.
We have seen a lot of success on Apple's part, and if they don't shape up, the success we've seen up to now will not last. Chris Breen even thinks so.
To get back to my original point, Apple would have dodged all of this if they'd sold activated phones or just sold unlocked phones.
There's a difference between financial success now and financial success in the future. The difference? Public relations.
The difference is not PR, it's achieving consumer satisfaction in the target demographic.
You're not the target demographic, obviously, while I am. I own an iPhone because of a whim of my wife to give me a gift (she knew I was interested in the device but also that I wasn't intending on purchasing one) and we consider the price of the phone and the contract a small subcategory of our discretionary income. We're the target Apple wanted to cater to. We're very happy with the device. It's worth every penny of what we paid for it.
The phone is what it is. It's a freaking PHONE! The sooner people accept that the device is exactly the product that Apple wants to deliver and NO, it's not the Newton II, it's not the Apple sub-notebook, it's not *fill in the blank with your particular dream device*, the sooner they'll reach maturity.
You're not the target demographic, obviously, while I am. I own an iPhone because of a whim of my wife to give me a gift (she knew I was interested in the device but also that I wasn't intending on purchasing one) and we consider the price of the phone and the contract a small subcategory of our discretionary income.
Well aren't you lucky that you can drop $400 to $600 (depending on when you bought the phone) of your "discretionary income" to buy such a device. Us paycheck to paycheck folks quite honestly have lots of interest in the iPhone, too, however we can't just afford to stop feeding our kids or saving up for our baby that's on the way. I'm also not real interested in paying the fees for canceling my existing T-Mobile contract to gain the added benefit of Visual Voicemail.
The story would be different if Apple and AT&T subsidized the iPhone's cost through the service plan or sold an unlocked phone that I could use on T-Mobile. Since the companies are so greedy for money and profit that they can't do either, I guess I'll just have to wait a LONG time to get an iPhone and those companies will have to wait a LONG time to get my money.
I thought about replacing my existing Moto RAZR with an iPhone whenever the RAZR dies and save up between now and then. All I'd need is to unlock the iPhone and I'd be good to go. But no, Apple will have none of that and will insist on bricking MY equipment if I so much as dare install an update.
Oh, and if it's just a phone, I guess my RAZR is working just great for me and I'd have no reason to ever buy an iPhone and fill Apple and AT&T's coffers. Maybe I'll find an unlocked RAZR 2 to replace this one. Thanks for helping me on my decision.
... it is tiresome in the extreme to have people explaining that any criticism can be explained away by pointing dumbly at the share price and shrugging.
Thats right... there's more going on here than the regular buying/selling on rumors and news. Its emotional. Evidence of that is how AAPL rises even when there have been no new rumors in weeks. People buy/sell in volumes large enough to move the market in anticipation of rumors leaking!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss
You're not the target demographic, obviously, while I am... We're the target Apple wanted to cater to. We're very happy with the device. It's worth every penny of what we paid for it.
You are a sheep. Thats so ridiculous I just vomited in my mouth. So... if BMW decided that they would only allow you to put BP gasoline in their car (otherwise they would remotely disable the starter), and you didn't agree to that stipulation, you would be OK because you have a crapload of discretionary income and you're the 'target audience'?
F*&k that, my friend. Its not about target audience. And its not about allowing people to hack their phones. Its about doing what's right. Bricking a hacked phone is not right, because when you buy an iPhone, there is no explicit agreement to sign an AT&T contract. And its ridiculous that you are criticizing someone for bringing up an extremely valid point and instead defending Apple, which by the way, doesn't need your defense.
CosmoNut is right, and Chris Breen is right. The little stuff Apple does to piss off customers (even a small portion of them) will eventually add up. I'm personally not ready to say 'screw apple' at this point. I've been a fan and user for too long for that. But i will say that they better stop screwing around with their base supporters and start responding to criticism now before it gets out of hand.
Yes but the contract with ATT runs for 5 years which is a loooong time
I'm dubious of this five year lock. Even if its true I'm sure Apple has a back door out of it. Apple hasn't partnered with ATT as much as using them.
Quote:
it is tiresome in the extreme to have people explaining that any criticism can be explained away by pointing dumbly at the share price and shrugging.
Profit and stock price are a very good indicator that a companies strategy is working. Its a really good indicator if the stock mostly goes up and only dips. Their will always be a dip.
Quote:
You are a sheep. Thats so ridiculous I just vomited in my mouth
You are a sheep because you bought a product fully understanding its capability and limitation and are happy with it?
Not a sheep is a person who bought a product fully understanding its capabilities and limitations but complains because they want it to do something else?
Quote:
Its about doing what's right. Bricking a hacked phone is not right,
Apple doesn't just brick your phone. You download unsupported software at your own risk.
Quote:
because when you buy an iPhone, there is no explicit agreement to sign an AT&T contract.
Yes there is.
Quote:
The little stuff Apple does to piss off customers (even a small portion of them) will eventually add up
These people are pissed off simply because Apple won't do what they want it to do.
Profit and stock price are a very good indicator that a companies strategy is working. Its a really good indicator if the stock mostly goes up and only dips. Their will always be a dip.
Tell that to the former Enron and Tyco employees and shareholders.
Whatever, Mr. 'I'm the iPhone Target Demographic'. That comment alone reeks of privilege. How about this: Grab some of your discretionary income, drive your wife's bimmer to the local Apple store where she bought your iphone, and buy a clue. Its already been pointed out that you seriously lack one.
All who are willing should follow the advice of physguy and post their complaints / suggestions on the apple discussion boards, no matter how small. I have already done so regarding that keypad-less imac wireless keyboard for example. I think Jobs will listen eventually.
Tell that to the former Enron and Tyco employees and shareholders.
Enron and Tyco are extreme and unusual circumstances of abusing the system. Those examples are not the norm and Apple certainly is not in that situation.
Enron and Tyco are extreme and unusual circumstances of abusing the system. Those examples are not the norm and Apple certainly is not in that situation.
As you said, "Profit and stock price are a very good indicator that a companies strategy is working". Had Enron and Tyco used legal accounting practices the stock would have been a true reflection of the worth of the companies.
Enron and Tyco are extreme and unusual circumstances of abusing the system. Those examples are not the norm and Apple certainly is not in that situation.
Enron and Tyco are examples of how the market had imperfect information and as soon as accurate information was released, the market corrected and the share price dropped 95% in a matter of weeks. The lesson there, and I think the point of some earlier posts, is that the market does not always have all the information required to properly value a given stock at any given time.
I'm not saying that AAPL should be 10% lower than current. I'm saying that actions that Jobs takes now may have a negative effect on future earnings, and these actions are not accurately reflected in the stock price. AAPL survived for many years because of diehard supporters. Now, maybe some of those supporters want the iphone but not an AT&T contract. OK... make it difficult to hack the phone. Release an update to nullify hacks. Put warnings up, threaten owners of hacked iphones. Even brick hacked phones. But that wont help Apple get their share of the monthly usage fees. If Jobs wants to guarantee the income stream, he needs to sell them with 2-year AT&T contracts.
People will not stop hacking. The only reasonable outcome is that Apple stops trying to stop them. Otherwise this will be in headlines for the next 5 years, leading to a PR mess for Jobs, and eventually lower sales as their public image weakens.
and then they intentionally tried to brick unlocked iPhones because some users decided not to activate their unactivated iPhones with the carrier that Apple teamed up with.
I don't care what you say. It says it in your terms of use and if you don't like it don't buy it. It's doing fine regardless. And AFAIAC If you violate your terms your on your own. Apple didn't sell this product with any SDK available because it was too much work for them to start supporting every developer from here to china's software and applications with this being their first run at a telephone. Some idiot decides to start soldering inside their iPhone and you think Apple needs to put their development team behind to support this idiots hack or something? Pull your fucking head out of your ass. They supported their software and not everybbodys fucked up hack. It's also their job to try and stop people from ripping off their partners in this. And furthermore, Apple gave advanced warning for those people to remove their hacks before the update. It's their own fault they decided to tempt fate.
It says it in your terms of use and if you don't like it don't buy it. ...
Ah, but do you agree to these terms of use at the time of the sales transaction? If so, what's the wording and where is it?
Are these terms of use INSIDE of the sealed package? If so, what's the wording? If inside the package, is it justified for Apple to charge a restocking fee if you choose not to agree to these terms of use?
THAT'S MY POINT! Don't sell an unactivated phone and then intentionally brick their phones if NO terms of use were agreed upon prior to or at the time of the TRANSACTION. Don't charge a restocking fee if the terms of use are inside the package and the customer chooses to not agree to them and return the product.
Comments
Even though it's already sold over a million units and Apple's stock prices are pretty high, I really think this is taking a hit on Apple for the long term.
One thing I do wonder is this: What are the "terms of service" in the box of an unactivated iPhone? Does it say, "thou shalt not hacktivate this on another cell carrier or we'll brick your phone!"?
Americans are allowed to unlock their locked phones. Apple has damaged these people's property and gone against that nationwide permissible action. Not good, people.
"Or we'll brick your phone"
Criticism of Apple is justified but "or we'll brick your phone" is complete bullshit and you should be ashamed for making such an argument.
Criticize Apple all you want for their update not working on hacked phones. That is justified. However, they don't force you to update so quit pretending to be a bigger victim than you actual are.
In a few years I am sure, apple will sell unlocked phones. It will be when it suits them and not a moment before.
Yes but the contract with ATT runs for 5 years which is a loooong time
They also sell the iphone outside the USA and deal with other firms then AT&T. The unlock market is going to be outside the US for Apple.
Let me get this straight... what you're saying is:
"In spite of evidence that the iPhone is a success and the company is profiting from it's decisions by having stock prices at levels never before reached, I think it is a mistake".
Kinda makes it hard to defend a position when the evidence doesn't support it, doesn't it?
There's a difference between financial success now and financial success in the future. The difference? Public relations.
Apple has thoroughly f'ed themselves over with this one. And if 1.1.1 was the only mistake they've made in the past year then it'd be a whole different thing. But look how many decisions Apple's made lately that have pissed off more than one portion of their user base.
This was the straw that broke the camel's back. They made a deal with the devil so that iPhones can have Visual Voicemail when every other function of the phone would have worked on any GSM network with EDGE WORLDWIDE, they released a completely revamped and crippled version of iMovie, they kicked every early adopter in the rear by dropping the iPhone's price by 1/3 two months after its release, and then they intentionally tried to brick unlocked iPhones because some users decided not to activate their unactivated iPhones with the carrier that Apple teamed up with.
Apple's in the business to make money. Apple will make money when they sell products to their customers. Customers will buy products when they believe in the products being sold and the company selling them. Apple's customers are seriously starting to disbelieve as of Thursday, Sept. 27, 2007.
We have seen a lot of success on Apple's part, and if they don't shape up, the success we've seen up to now will not last. Chris Breen even thinks so.
To get back to my original point, Apple would have dodged all of this if they'd sold activated phones or just sold unlocked phones.
There's a difference between financial success now and financial success in the future. The difference? Public relations.
The difference is not PR, it's achieving consumer satisfaction in the target demographic.
You're not the target demographic, obviously, while I am. I own an iPhone because of a whim of my wife to give me a gift (she knew I was interested in the device but also that I wasn't intending on purchasing one) and we consider the price of the phone and the contract a small subcategory of our discretionary income. We're the target Apple wanted to cater to. We're very happy with the device. It's worth every penny of what we paid for it.
The phone is what it is. It's a freaking PHONE! The sooner people accept that the device is exactly the product that Apple wants to deliver and NO, it's not the Newton II, it's not the Apple sub-notebook, it's not *fill in the blank with your particular dream device*, the sooner they'll reach maturity.
You're not the target demographic, obviously, while I am. I own an iPhone because of a whim of my wife to give me a gift (she knew I was interested in the device but also that I wasn't intending on purchasing one) and we consider the price of the phone and the contract a small subcategory of our discretionary income.
Well aren't you lucky that you can drop $400 to $600 (depending on when you bought the phone) of your "discretionary income" to buy such a device. Us paycheck to paycheck folks quite honestly have lots of interest in the iPhone, too, however we can't just afford to stop feeding our kids or saving up for our baby that's on the way. I'm also not real interested in paying the fees for canceling my existing T-Mobile contract to gain the added benefit of Visual Voicemail.
The story would be different if Apple and AT&T subsidized the iPhone's cost through the service plan or sold an unlocked phone that I could use on T-Mobile. Since the companies are so greedy for money and profit that they can't do either, I guess I'll just have to wait a LONG time to get an iPhone and those companies will have to wait a LONG time to get my money.
I thought about replacing my existing Moto RAZR with an iPhone whenever the RAZR dies and save up between now and then. All I'd need is to unlock the iPhone and I'd be good to go. But no, Apple will have none of that and will insist on bricking MY equipment if I so much as dare install an update.
Oh, and if it's just a phone, I guess my RAZR is working just great for me and I'd have no reason to ever buy an iPhone and fill Apple and AT&T's coffers. Maybe I'll find an unlocked RAZR 2 to replace this one. Thanks for helping me on my decision.
Thanks for helping me on my decision.
You're welcome.
... it is tiresome in the extreme to have people explaining that any criticism can be explained away by pointing dumbly at the share price and shrugging.
Thats right... there's more going on here than the regular buying/selling on rumors and news. Its emotional. Evidence of that is how AAPL rises even when there have been no new rumors in weeks. People buy/sell in volumes large enough to move the market in anticipation of rumors leaking!
You're not the target demographic, obviously, while I am... We're the target Apple wanted to cater to. We're very happy with the device. It's worth every penny of what we paid for it.
You are a sheep. Thats so ridiculous I just vomited in my mouth. So... if BMW decided that they would only allow you to put BP gasoline in their car (otherwise they would remotely disable the starter), and you didn't agree to that stipulation, you would be OK because you have a crapload of discretionary income and you're the 'target audience'?
F*&k that, my friend. Its not about target audience. And its not about allowing people to hack their phones. Its about doing what's right. Bricking a hacked phone is not right, because when you buy an iPhone, there is no explicit agreement to sign an AT&T contract. And its ridiculous that you are criticizing someone for bringing up an extremely valid point and instead defending Apple, which by the way, doesn't need your defense.
CosmoNut is right, and Chris Breen is right. The little stuff Apple does to piss off customers (even a small portion of them) will eventually add up. I'm personally not ready to say 'screw apple' at this point. I've been a fan and user for too long for that. But i will say that they better stop screwing around with their base supporters and start responding to criticism now before it gets out of hand.
Yes but the contract with ATT runs for 5 years which is a loooong time
I'm dubious of this five year lock. Even if its true I'm sure Apple has a back door out of it. Apple hasn't partnered with ATT as much as using them.
it is tiresome in the extreme to have people explaining that any criticism can be explained away by pointing dumbly at the share price and shrugging.
Profit and stock price are a very good indicator that a companies strategy is working. Its a really good indicator if the stock mostly goes up and only dips. Their will always be a dip.
You are a sheep. Thats so ridiculous I just vomited in my mouth
You are a sheep because you bought a product fully understanding its capability and limitation and are happy with it?
Not a sheep is a person who bought a product fully understanding its capabilities and limitations but complains because they want it to do something else?
Its about doing what's right. Bricking a hacked phone is not right,
Apple doesn't just brick your phone. You download unsupported software at your own risk.
because when you buy an iPhone, there is no explicit agreement to sign an AT&T contract.
Yes there is.
The little stuff Apple does to piss off customers (even a small portion of them) will eventually add up
These people are pissed off simply because Apple won't do what they want it to do.
Profit and stock price are a very good indicator that a companies strategy is working. Its a really good indicator if the stock mostly goes up and only dips. Their will always be a dip.
Tell that to the former Enron and Tyco employees and shareholders.
You are a sheep. Thats so ridiculous I just vomited in my mouth.
You sweet talker! I bet you get all the girls!
You and Heny Woodward should get together. I think you two have a lot in common.
You sweet talker! I bet you get all the girls!
Whatever, Mr. 'I'm the iPhone Target Demographic'. That comment alone reeks of privilege. How about this: Grab some of your discretionary income, drive your wife's bimmer to the local Apple store where she bought your iphone, and buy a clue. Its already been pointed out that you seriously lack one.
All who are willing should follow the advice of physguy and post their complaints / suggestions on the apple discussion boards, no matter how small. I have already done so regarding that keypad-less imac wireless keyboard for example. I think Jobs will listen eventually.
I think Jobs will listen eventually.
With the message being delivered as smoothly as you deliver it, I can't see how you can fail to impress.
I bet that in addition to getting all the girls, you have a loyal following of intellectuals who want to be you when they grow up.
You should throw up in your mouth for them. I bet they love that!
With the message being delivered as smoothly as you deliver it, I can't see how you can fail to impress.
I bet that in addition to getting all the girls, you have a loyal following of intellectuals who want to be you when they grow up.
You should throw up in your mouth for them. I bet they love that!
My Goodness!!! Is that all you have to say?
Ok then... I admit I have a potty mouth. You win! But I bet the things going in your mouth are alot nastier than the things coming out of mine.
Time out for me! Can we be friends now, Taskiss?
Tell that to the former Enron and Tyco employees and shareholders.
Enron and Tyco are extreme and unusual circumstances of abusing the system. Those examples are not the norm and Apple certainly is not in that situation.
Enron and Tyco are extreme and unusual circumstances of abusing the system. Those examples are not the norm and Apple certainly is not in that situation.
As you said, "Profit and stock price are a very good indicator that a companies strategy is working". Had Enron and Tyco used legal accounting practices the stock would have been a true reflection of the worth of the companies.
Enron and Tyco are extreme and unusual circumstances of abusing the system. Those examples are not the norm and Apple certainly is not in that situation.
Enron and Tyco are examples of how the market had imperfect information and as soon as accurate information was released, the market corrected and the share price dropped 95% in a matter of weeks. The lesson there, and I think the point of some earlier posts, is that the market does not always have all the information required to properly value a given stock at any given time.
I'm not saying that AAPL should be 10% lower than current. I'm saying that actions that Jobs takes now may have a negative effect on future earnings, and these actions are not accurately reflected in the stock price. AAPL survived for many years because of diehard supporters. Now, maybe some of those supporters want the iphone but not an AT&T contract. OK... make it difficult to hack the phone. Release an update to nullify hacks. Put warnings up, threaten owners of hacked iphones. Even brick hacked phones. But that wont help Apple get their share of the monthly usage fees. If Jobs wants to guarantee the income stream, he needs to sell them with 2-year AT&T contracts.
People will not stop hacking. The only reasonable outcome is that Apple stops trying to stop them. Otherwise this will be in headlines for the next 5 years, leading to a PR mess for Jobs, and eventually lower sales as their public image weakens.
and then they intentionally tried to brick unlocked iPhones because some users decided not to activate their unactivated iPhones with the carrier that Apple teamed up with.
I don't care what you say. It says it in your terms of use and if you don't like it don't buy it. It's doing fine regardless. And AFAIAC If you violate your terms your on your own. Apple didn't sell this product with any SDK available because it was too much work for them to start supporting every developer from here to china's software and applications with this being their first run at a telephone. Some idiot decides to start soldering inside their iPhone and you think Apple needs to put their development team behind to support this idiots hack or something? Pull your fucking head out of your ass. They supported their software and not everybbodys fucked up hack. It's also their job to try and stop people from ripping off their partners in this. And furthermore, Apple gave advanced warning for those people to remove their hacks before the update. It's their own fault they decided to tempt fate.
It says it in your terms of use and if you don't like it don't buy it. ...
Ah, but do you agree to these terms of use at the time of the sales transaction? If so, what's the wording and where is it?
Are these terms of use INSIDE of the sealed package? If so, what's the wording? If inside the package, is it justified for Apple to charge a restocking fee if you choose not to agree to these terms of use?
THAT'S MY POINT! Don't sell an unactivated phone and then intentionally brick their phones if NO terms of use were agreed upon prior to or at the time of the TRANSACTION. Don't charge a restocking fee if the terms of use are inside the package and the customer chooses to not agree to them and return the product.