The marketplace I was referring to was that populated by consumers who buy things, not the bourse.
Here's some Business 101, for what it's worth: The value on the bourse is, ultimately, solely determined by the bourse's expectations of the price and volumes at which consumers buy things.
I have not the slightest interest in buying an iPhone unless I could get one free of any contract. I believe a very large % of the European population will think likewise.
You may be right, for all I know. But Apple's market research probably currently tells them otherwise, hence their actions that frustrate you.
But if you're right, then I have no doubt that a company such as Apple -- or any half-way smart company, for that matter -- will change its strategy accordingly.
You may be right, for all I know. But Apple's market research probably currently tells them otherwise, hence their actions that frustrate you.
But if you're right, then I have no doubt that a company such as Apple -- or any half-way smart company, for that matter -- will change its strategy accordingly.
No, I think their market research tells it like it is, and they will change their strategy at some point. I found some statistics for 2004. In Europe, the Middle East and Africa, there were 427.6m pre-paid mobile users. Worldwide, it was 809m. http://www.epaynews.com/statistics/mcommstats.html#24
I also found this:
"In Europe, the vast majority of mobile subscribers are prepaid users: .....Prepaid accounts for 79% of new users in Europe, and 60% of European users overall"
So anyway you care to look at it, Apple is choosing to eschew the largest market segment.
I can think of two reasons for their attitude. Firstly, they think the iPhone is so wonderful pre-paid users will gladly switch to contracts in order to get one. If they think that, I think they are sorely mistaken a few will, but not very many. I know for certain the Irish market, is mostly prepaid, but that matters for nothing because the overall market size is tiny. But Italy is a different matter. The market there is almost all prepaid and there are 60m people - in other words it is a market the same size as the UK.
Secondly, I think they are initially aiming to skim the cream by shafting the early adopters because they don't have a 3G version ready. So in the initial stages of European market penetration they are setting out to bleed as much money as possible from those who are easily parted from their money - a group more commonly referred to as fools.
These early adopters will pay through the nose for a status/fashion symbol they can ostentatiously flaunt and flash about. This will be the cream skimming stage. Then when the fools have been well and truly plundered the 3G models will be available and they will hit the prepaid sector of the market.
The fools are going to scream like stuck pigs when that happens, but not too loudly in case they look like fools, and Apple is going to thumb it's noses at them, as it usually does to early adopters.
You keep saying things like this, without a shred of evidence, but rather, just based on surmise!
Sorry, I presume you've been away and missed the v1.1.1 update.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
1) Apple has not been convicted of flouting any consumer protection laws, as far as I know.
Can you unlock an iPhone ?
Unlocking a phone is legal in both the USA and Europe. There are specific laws in both markets to allow unlocking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
2) You can keep calling the iPhone "....half finished, limited functionality, restrictive beta phone..." etc etc all you want. I have actually used it every day since June 29 and I can only speak from my personal experience: it is an outstanding product, and quite unlike anything else I have used to enhance my digital life. Have you used it at all, or again, is it just surmise?
I've not used one. They aren't available here in the UK yet.
I'm hoping they're 'half finished' or perhaps even only 25% finished and that they're rolling out more functionality. Because of the US SOX laws, they've chosen to recognise revenue over two years in order to roll out more functionality.
They're obviously 'restrictive' since the functionality can not be changed unlike any other smartphone.
The functionality is obviously 'limited' since it doesn't even have some standard features that even $40 phones have - like MMS, video...
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney
They are not making consumers do anything. They are offering a product for sale,
which consumers have the option to buy or not buy.
Yes, and in order to offer a product for sale there are consumer laws that dictate how that is done. It's not just a matter of the choice to buy it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banalltv
If Apple gets 30% of call fees doesn't that mean that call fees are almost 1.5 times dearer than they should be?
If that's the deal when it comes to Ireland they can suck my balls if they think I'm going to get one.
That seems to be the deal. Pay more for the handset, pay more for the call plan too. If Ireland gets the same kind of deal we got in the UK with O2 then you'll be paying almost twice the amount for an iPhone tariff as opposed to one of their usual tariffs.
Oh boy, it's hard for me to respond to all of your points because of time! I'll do just a couple.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Sorry, I presume you've been away and missed the v1.1.1 update.
Nah, you presume wrong. By the same token, I am sure you think OS X is "beta" since we are at version 4, update 11 (or whatever).
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Can you unlock an iPhone ?
Unlocking a phone is legal in both the USA and Europe. There are specific laws in both markets to allow unlocking.
The fact that you disallow the something "legal" in a product or service you sell does not at all mean you are flouting laws. For instance, not wearing a jacket is legal, but a good restaurant may not let you do that in its premises (even though you are willing to pay for the meal). If you have a problem with it, you go to another restautant. Smoking is legal, but someone may tell you that you can't do it in their premises even if it was legal in that setting. So you can smoke elsewhere. Etc.
People are welcome to dump the iPhone and buy the N95, and yet, much to AAPL shareholders' delight (and Nokia's chagrin), that does not seem to be happening!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
I've not used one. They aren't available here in the UK yet.
I thought so (the "not used one" part).
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
I'm hoping they're 'half finished' or perhaps even only 25% finished and that they're rolling out more functionality. Because of the US SOX laws, they've chosen to recognise revenue over two years in order to roll out more functionality.
They're obviously 'restrictive' since the functionality can not be changed unlike any other smartphone.
The functionality is obviously 'limited' since it doesn't even have some standard features that even $40 phones have - like MMS, video...
Short response: I think you should simply buy a $40 phone, and be happier! As a quick aside, to me, MMS is like the floppy disk of personal communication.
PS: You should do a little more research on revenue recognition principles in US GAAP and on SOX before making claims conflating the two.
People are welcome to dump the iPhone and buy the N95, and yet, much to AAPL shareholders' delight (and Nokia's chagrin), that does not seem to be happening.
Well I'm thinking about doing this in fact.
I'm in France with an Orange contract and a 1.0.2 8 Gb, and even though its EDGE network is very good, it's way too poky.
Aside then that, I miss not having a GPS onboard, access to more 3rd party applications and more advanced sync support.
What I really REALLY don't understand and cannot BELIEVE is that someone, ANYONE, at Apple didn't know this was gonna happen.
They've been working on the iPhone for YEARS and probably on the business side of things for quite a while as well.
They KNEW (they had to!) this was going to happen, so wtf is going on???
Either their Business Development team are bunch of idiots or there was a SEVERE case of forgetting that there is, indeed, another world outside of the US of A.
Apple is getting trounced on the PR front, loyalists are wavering, Apple is increasingly getting the "evil empire" image, and most all of this because they want to try and make some extra cash on the short run by locking the phone as much as possible.
Apple.. dear Apple... yes you have damn cool products, but you can't reinvent the wheel. Sell your damn phones like everyone else, make everyone happy, and make stupid high margins as usual. Get with it.
Apple is getting trounced on the PR front, loyalists are wavering, Apple is increasingly getting the "evil empire" image, and most all of this because they want to try and make some extra cash on the short run by locking the phone as much as possible.
Can you show using ANY credible metric that the number of people who have been discouraged from purchasing Apple products because of the introduction of the iPhone is greater than the number of people who have been encouraged to buy Apple products because of the iPhone?
I believe that the number of active Apple customers are increasing (by counting people who have purchased an Apple device including computer, iPod, or iPhone since iPhone introduction), not decreasing, and I believe I can show my work if you care to see the evidence.
From what I've read, the number of iPhone sales has increased substantially since the price reduction. I'd say a price reduction trumps what you consider "bad PR".
oh, I have NO DOUBT that Apple is still selling iPhones quite well. I never said anything to the contrary.
What I'm talking about is the core, early adopters, fan boys, hackers, etc... whatever you wanna call them.
Also, eventually, "normal people" may become disenchanted with this walled garden approach.
And, just to reiterate, the US approach in Europe will not work (well).
Now, either Apple simply isn't equipped to sell a 'perfect' phone like we all want, or they just majorly fucked up somewhere
Honestly, if Apple loses it's appeal as a target for fanboism, I'd be happy. The merits of an organization should never be measured emotionally.
It's not personal, it's business. In business you're only as good as your current product lineup, and that's the way it should be.
Also, the "perfect" phone doesn't exist. Apple has said they are targeting a distinct demographic and that they expect somewhere around a 1% market penetration with this device. If they reach that figure, they'll have a success on their hands.
I think that despite what Apple might think that most people want to be ablke to unlock their phones at the end of their contract. I think it is the fear factor of paying a lot of money for a phone that you are then lock in to a contract forever. It does not encourage me to give up my Pal, with which I can answer and make calls with one hand.
I think that despite what Apple might think that most people want to be ablke to unlock their phones at the end of their contract. I think it is the fear factor of paying a lot of money for a phone that you are then lock in to a contract forever. It does not encourage me to give up my Pal, with which I can answer and make calls with one hand.
Legally, Apple must allow people to unlock their phones at the end of their contract. Since the iPhone hasn't been in production 2 years, we'll have to reserve judgment on what they'll do at that point.
As it is, if you want to pay the penalty you can cancel a contract now with AT&T and unlock your phone. The only issue is that there's no obligation that I'm aware of that Apple must provide the mechanism for unlocking the device. I believe (and I could be wrong about this) that AT&T is the party obligated to provide the mechanism to unlock the phone.
EDIT: after looking this up, it seems there is no obligation to assist in unlocking a phone, people who do so are exempt from being sued.
This notice announces that during the next three years, the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that effectively control access to copyrighted works shall not apply to persons who engage in noninfringing uses of six classes of copyrighted works.
...
5. Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network.
Honestly, if Apple loses it's appeal as a target for fanboism, I'd be happy. The merits of an organization should never be measured emotionally.
It's not personal, it's business. In business you're only as good as your current product lineup, and that's the way it should be.
Also, the "perfect" phone doesn't exist. Apple has said they are targeting a distinct demographic and that they expect somewhere around a 1% market penetration with this device. If they reach that figure, they'll have a success on their hands.
There is "perfect" and then there is making a feature complete product.
To make a long thing short, the iPhone's BASIC features are working, but despite having a few billion mobile phones that preceded it with more than a decade of "prior art" to work from, they still left out lots of stuff and it's maddening to see that a lot of it can be rectified with 3rd party apps and yet Apple is treating the situation in the most ass backward way.
So, yes, thats great that they don't cater to the fanboys (seriously), but at the same time they CAN or COULD just let the "fanboys" hack it the way they like it. You can customize your Powerbook to your heart's delight, why not a damn phone?
Steve's argument of "we don't want the whole West coast grid coming to a halt" because of some fucking 3rd party apps is just total crap
No that pertained to capping the volume level on iPods as legislations stipulates that the noise level shall not be above 105 (or 100 dB). But you can unblock it afterwards.
France is particular anyway : Red Bull is illegal there -too much caffeine...
But they DID send some troops to the US to fight of the colonial Brits and sold you Louisiana....
They have dark dog instead of red bull, not nearly as good!
Comments
LOL.
The only slight problem is, the market, which sent AAPL up $5.20099 yesterday, seems to vehemently disagree with you!
The marketplace I was referring to was that populated by consumers who buy things, not the bourse.
Your right, but who else in the world would build a city below sea level in the past 300 years?
I daresay the dutch might give it a try.
The marketplace I was referring to was that populated by consumers who buy things, not the bourse.
Here's some Business 101, for what it's worth: The value on the bourse is, ultimately, solely determined by the bourse's expectations of the price and volumes at which consumers buy things.
I have not the slightest interest in buying an iPhone unless I could get one free of any contract. I believe a very large % of the European population will think likewise.
You may be right, for all I know. But Apple's market research probably currently tells them otherwise, hence their actions that frustrate you.
But if you're right, then I have no doubt that a company such as Apple -- or any half-way smart company, for that matter -- will change its strategy accordingly.
I daresay the dutch might give it a try.
You may be right, for all I know. But Apple's market research probably currently tells them otherwise, hence their actions that frustrate you.
But if you're right, then I have no doubt that a company such as Apple -- or any half-way smart company, for that matter -- will change its strategy accordingly.
No, I think their market research tells it like it is, and they will change their strategy at some point. I found some statistics for 2004. In Europe, the Middle East and Africa, there were 427.6m pre-paid mobile users. Worldwide, it was 809m. http://www.epaynews.com/statistics/mcommstats.html#24
I also found this:
"In Europe, the vast majority of mobile subscribers are prepaid users: .....Prepaid accounts for 79% of new users in Europe, and 60% of European users overall"
So anyway you care to look at it, Apple is choosing to eschew the largest market segment.
I can think of two reasons for their attitude. Firstly, they think the iPhone is so wonderful pre-paid users will gladly switch to contracts in order to get one. If they think that, I think they are sorely mistaken a few will, but not very many. I know for certain the Irish market, is mostly prepaid, but that matters for nothing because the overall market size is tiny. But Italy is a different matter. The market there is almost all prepaid and there are 60m people - in other words it is a market the same size as the UK.
Secondly, I think they are initially aiming to skim the cream by shafting the early adopters because they don't have a 3G version ready. So in the initial stages of European market penetration they are setting out to bleed as much money as possible from those who are easily parted from their money - a group more commonly referred to as fools.
These early adopters will pay through the nose for a status/fashion symbol they can ostentatiously flaunt and flash about. This will be the cream skimming stage. Then when the fools have been well and truly plundered the 3G models will be available and they will hit the prepaid sector of the market.
The fools are going to scream like stuck pigs when that happens, but not too loudly in case they look like fools, and Apple is going to thumb it's noses at them, as it usually does to early adopters.
Well thats my slightly cynical view of things.
You keep saying things like this, without a shred of evidence, but rather, just based on surmise!
Sorry, I presume you've been away and missed the v1.1.1 update.
1) Apple has not been convicted of flouting any consumer protection laws, as far as I know.
Can you unlock an iPhone ?
Unlocking a phone is legal in both the USA and Europe. There are specific laws in both markets to allow unlocking.
2) You can keep calling the iPhone "....half finished, limited functionality, restrictive beta phone..." etc etc all you want. I have actually used it every day since June 29 and I can only speak from my personal experience: it is an outstanding product, and quite unlike anything else I have used to enhance my digital life. Have you used it at all, or again, is it just surmise?
I've not used one. They aren't available here in the UK yet.
I'm hoping they're 'half finished' or perhaps even only 25% finished and that they're rolling out more functionality. Because of the US SOX laws, they've chosen to recognise revenue over two years in order to roll out more functionality.
They're obviously 'restrictive' since the functionality can not be changed unlike any other smartphone.
The functionality is obviously 'limited' since it doesn't even have some standard features that even $40 phones have - like MMS, video...
They are not making consumers do anything. They are offering a product for sale,
which consumers have the option to buy or not buy.
Yes, and in order to offer a product for sale there are consumer laws that dictate how that is done. It's not just a matter of the choice to buy it or not.
If Apple gets 30% of call fees doesn't that mean that call fees are almost 1.5 times dearer than they should be?
If that's the deal when it comes to Ireland they can suck my balls if they think I'm going to get one.
That seems to be the deal. Pay more for the handset, pay more for the call plan too. If Ireland gets the same kind of deal we got in the UK with O2 then you'll be paying almost twice the amount for an iPhone tariff as opposed to one of their usual tariffs.
Sorry, I presume you've been away and missed the v1.1.1 update.
Nah, you presume wrong. By the same token, I am sure you think OS X is "beta" since we are at version 4, update 11 (or whatever).
Can you unlock an iPhone ?
Unlocking a phone is legal in both the USA and Europe. There are specific laws in both markets to allow unlocking.
The fact that you disallow the something "legal" in a product or service you sell does not at all mean you are flouting laws. For instance, not wearing a jacket is legal, but a good restaurant may not let you do that in its premises (even though you are willing to pay for the meal). If you have a problem with it, you go to another restautant. Smoking is legal, but someone may tell you that you can't do it in their premises even if it was legal in that setting. So you can smoke elsewhere. Etc.
People are welcome to dump the iPhone and buy the N95, and yet, much to AAPL shareholders' delight (and Nokia's chagrin), that does not seem to be happening!
I've not used one. They aren't available here in the UK yet.
I thought so (the "not used one" part).
I'm hoping they're 'half finished' or perhaps even only 25% finished and that they're rolling out more functionality. Because of the US SOX laws, they've chosen to recognise revenue over two years in order to roll out more functionality.
They're obviously 'restrictive' since the functionality can not be changed unlike any other smartphone.
The functionality is obviously 'limited' since it doesn't even have some standard features that even $40 phones have - like MMS, video...
Short response: I think you should simply buy a $40 phone, and be happier! As a quick aside, to me, MMS is like the floppy disk of personal communication.
PS: You should do a little more research on revenue recognition principles in US GAAP and on SOX before making claims conflating the two.
People are welcome to dump the iPhone and buy the N95, and yet, much to AAPL shareholders' delight (and Nokia's chagrin), that does not seem to be happening.
Well I'm thinking about doing this in fact.
I'm in France with an Orange contract and a 1.0.2 8 Gb, and even though its EDGE network is very good, it's way too poky.
Aside then that, I miss not having a GPS onboard, access to more 3rd party applications and more advanced sync support.
They've been working on the iPhone for YEARS and probably on the business side of things for quite a while as well.
They KNEW (they had to!) this was going to happen, so wtf is going on???
Either their Business Development team are bunch of idiots or there was a SEVERE case of forgetting that there is, indeed, another world outside of the US of A.
Apple is getting trounced on the PR front, loyalists are wavering, Apple is increasingly getting the "evil empire" image, and most all of this because they want to try and make some extra cash on the short run by locking the phone as much as possible.
Apple.. dear Apple... yes you have damn cool products, but you can't reinvent the wheel. Sell your damn phones like everyone else, make everyone happy, and make stupid high margins as usual. Get with it.
Apple is getting trounced on the PR front, loyalists are wavering, Apple is increasingly getting the "evil empire" image, and most all of this because they want to try and make some extra cash on the short run by locking the phone as much as possible.
Can you show using ANY credible metric that the number of people who have been discouraged from purchasing Apple products because of the introduction of the iPhone is greater than the number of people who have been encouraged to buy Apple products because of the iPhone?
I believe that the number of active Apple customers are increasing (by counting people who have purchased an Apple device including computer, iPod, or iPhone since iPhone introduction), not decreasing, and I believe I can show my work if you care to see the evidence.
From what I've read, the number of iPhone sales has increased substantially since the price reduction. I'd say a price reduction trumps what you consider "bad PR".
What I'm talking about is the core, early adopters, fan boys, hackers, etc... whatever you wanna call them.
Also, eventually, "normal people" may become disenchanted with this walled garden approach.
And, just to reiterate, the US approach in Europe will not work (well).
Now, either Apple simply isn't equipped to sell a 'perfect' phone like we all want, or they just majorly fucked up somewhere
oh, I have NO DOUBT that Apple is still selling iPhones quite well. I never said anything to the contrary.
What I'm talking about is the core, early adopters, fan boys, hackers, etc... whatever you wanna call them.
Also, eventually, "normal people" may become disenchanted with this walled garden approach.
And, just to reiterate, the US approach in Europe will not work (well).
Now, either Apple simply isn't equipped to sell a 'perfect' phone like we all want, or they just majorly fucked up somewhere
Honestly, if Apple loses it's appeal as a target for fanboism, I'd be happy. The merits of an organization should never be measured emotionally.
It's not personal, it's business. In business you're only as good as your current product lineup, and that's the way it should be.
Also, the "perfect" phone doesn't exist. Apple has said they are targeting a distinct demographic and that they expect somewhere around a 1% market penetration with this device. If they reach that figure, they'll have a success on their hands.
I think that despite what Apple might think that most people want to be ablke to unlock their phones at the end of their contract. I think it is the fear factor of paying a lot of money for a phone that you are then lock in to a contract forever. It does not encourage me to give up my Pal, with which I can answer and make calls with one hand.
Legally, Apple must allow people to unlock their phones at the end of their contract. Since the iPhone hasn't been in production 2 years, we'll have to reserve judgment on what they'll do at that point.
As it is, if you want to pay the penalty you can cancel a contract now with AT&T and unlock your phone. The only issue is that there's no obligation that I'm aware of that Apple must provide the mechanism for unlocking the device. I believe (and I could be wrong about this) that AT&T is the party obligated to provide the mechanism to unlock the phone.
EDIT: after looking this up, it seems there is no obligation to assist in unlocking a phone, people who do so are exempt from being sued.
http://www.copyright.gov/1201/2006/p...g/tracfone.pdf
http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/
This notice announces that during the next three years, the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that effectively control access to copyrighted works shall not apply to persons who engage in noninfringing uses of six classes of copyrighted works.
...
5. Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network.
http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.html
Honestly, if Apple loses it's appeal as a target for fanboism, I'd be happy. The merits of an organization should never be measured emotionally.
It's not personal, it's business. In business you're only as good as your current product lineup, and that's the way it should be.
Also, the "perfect" phone doesn't exist. Apple has said they are targeting a distinct demographic and that they expect somewhere around a 1% market penetration with this device. If they reach that figure, they'll have a success on their hands.
There is "perfect" and then there is making a feature complete product.
I made a long post http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=79061 about all the crap that doesn't work or should've been right from the get go.
To make a long thing short, the iPhone's BASIC features are working, but despite having a few billion mobile phones that preceded it with more than a decade of "prior art" to work from, they still left out lots of stuff and it's maddening to see that a lot of it can be rectified with 3rd party apps and yet Apple is treating the situation in the most ass backward way.
So, yes, thats great that they don't cater to the fanboys (seriously), but at the same time they CAN or COULD just let the "fanboys" hack it the way they like it. You can customize your Powerbook to your heart's delight, why not a damn phone?
Steve's argument of "we don't want the whole West coast grid coming to a halt" because of some fucking 3rd party apps is just total crap
No that pertained to capping the volume level on iPods as legislations stipulates that the noise level shall not be above 105 (or 100 dB). But you can unblock it afterwards.
France is particular anyway : Red Bull is illegal there -too much caffeine...
But they DID send some troops to the US to fight of the colonial Brits and sold you Louisiana....
They have dark dog instead of red bull, not nearly as good!
Why oh Why does this discussion remind me of this...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLtwFugudZE .
hmmm....
.
.
I guess Apple will just have to rename the iPhone and call it something really French like......
Le Big Mac or Le Royale...or Le Concourse...
Aquafire