The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers.
Obviously the answer is not obvious, but couldn't we let the offense take off...? I mean have you sharing your opinion.
Serious advice cooming up - when you are banging your head on the wall because you are "not getting through" step back from the wall, untill you can see the door, then, go through the door.
Why not accept the blue pill it is the way forward, or would you rather stay still?
Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.
Thats my take on it.
--
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
I may do that, but I'd like to use it for about 3 weeks first.
Look forward to it {almost want to dare you to find fault with it on this thread but I really hope you love it as much as Tiger}
The Buttons and sliders and other Interface Builder options will evolve as IB evolves.
Does the Behavior of the OS confuse you with these gumdrops?
If Steve says there's a free steel mug with a minimal sand-blasted Apple logo coming with every new iMac, I'll write a post when that mug doesn't arrive in the box.
Don't make promises you can't Steve, but if you do, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people here to defend you when threads start too pop up to tell you about it.
"Steve never promised the death of Aqua" I know, but he promised consistency across the board, and he didn't deliver it.
Sure it might seem like a small thing, but it's important to its users, it should be important (especially) to Apple. We need to keep demanding excellence from them, or we'll never have a hope of them aiming to achieve it. Heck, they couldn't even give us the same scroll-bars in all the new iLife apps.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Yes, the anal retentive focus on a non-problem is completely obvious. The label is completely accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious.
So you agree it doesn't get in the way. That is an admission you are nitpicking over non-functional fu-fu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9secondko
However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.
Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.
When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.
Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.
To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
That was a hell of a non-answer. Are you running for office somewhere?
Sure it might seem like a small thing, but it's important to its users, it should be important (especially) to Apple. We need to keep demanding excellence from them, or we'll never have a hope of them aiming to achieve it. Heck, they couldn't even give us the same scroll-bars in all the new iLife apps.
I'll admit it's important to you. It's not an issue for me, I LIKE it the way it is. Context is better highlighted this way, and unconsciously registering context lets work get done faster. Apple can feel free to continue to improve if it makes work easier to do or ancillary tasks less intrusive.
But please don't try to force Apple to change for changes sake by making false claims that the users feel its important. The users don't. You do. Big difference.
Agreed, and given that only 3 people on these forums actually care deeply, and this forum hardly represents the 'average Mac user' let's let this thread die.
Quote:
Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow...
Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
I could fix the changes myself in less than 2 hours. (I'd have to brush up on my themeing, haven't did it since Sosumi)
The real point is that Steve said we'd be getting a consistent look across the board, and they didn't deliver on that promise. That point says it all. And it's not just opinion, they simply didn't do it.
Yup, then calling the theme "Unified' and taking all Aqua elements off the web page, I mean what the hell..
"Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release."
Yes, the anal retentive focus on a non-problem is completely obvious. The label is completely accurate.
Again... childish. And in no way a real argument. simply adjective based name calling basically. <sarcasm> Wow, that's a winner there. </sarcasm>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro
So you agree it doesn't get in the way. That is an admission you are nitpicking over non-functional fu-fu.
i agree that it does not get in the way of basic productivity. No one ever said it did. you are reaching a bit for solutions to an argument that never existed in this thread. If that is the best you can do, then you recognize that it is an issue as well, however minor. It is a big deal to someone like myself with an eye for design. Maybe for someone like yourself who can just get by it is fine and so be it, but for me and the others like me who have brought this subject up, it is simply exposing the unfinished stated of the UI.
And unless something is seriously wrong with Leopard, the scrollbars and buttons are very functional items. so your non-functional fu-fu is fu-fu in and of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro
That was a hell of a non-answer. Are you running for office somewhere?
It is only a "non - answer" for someone what cannot understand what the argument is. If you are looking for one answer and never find it, then your simple mind reverts to "that does not compute." The answer is that the UI inconsistency is an issue because we were promised otherwise. We did not get it (unless, however unlikely, it is there in the shipping version, which does not match up with Leopards online tutorial). So basically, yeah, the UI is inconsistent and it is unfinished because of that.
Just for those of you who cannot seem to understand the points of this thread.
There was never an argument against usability, simply an argument about Apple's lack of polish in this case by shipping an OS running an amalgam of themes. The leopard theme is the iTunes them, albeit carried forth only half way. That is about it. We would like to have seen either a better theme as the iTunes theme is very old now, or at least the new theme carried to its logical conclusion and polished off. Nothing so wrong about that. Apple can do it too. But people like you just cannot understand the simplicity of the argument and so you have to try to make it other than what it is. then you get all personal. Then you have to fire back at something that was never an attack to begin with. That is not only anal retentive, but obsessive-compulsive as well.
Folks, this is simply about looks. Something entire agencies are built upon, web designers are hired and fired for, models and movie stars get casted by, Apple is known for, and something Leopard should deliver. Sure it delivers under the hood, but it mostly stops there. We expected better. The company that prides itself in building computers with only one visible or no visible screws is the company that I expect to pay attention to matters such as this. It is pretty glaring actually.
Again, hopefully, it can be addressed later. As far as those who thought the OS UI could not be addressed in a point release, they do it with iTunes, that the new Finder is based on and they were able to give the Safari theme to Windows. Apple CAN do it, it is just a question of IF they will. itunes has changed a few times. Here's hoping we aren't stuck with UI inconsistency for too long after launch.
Although it's not a huge issue enough to stop buying Leopard, it's still very annoying. We've been looking at the same theme for 7 years or so now and it's getting boring. When I first got OS X, I thought the interface was nice and slick and interesting but now it's just old.
The bubbly buttons just don't fit with the rest of the interface nor with Apple new site as someone pointed out. Look at the black scrollbar on the Mac link on Apple's site. The scrollbar even looks more at home on 10.4 than the jelly-beans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ke^in
"Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release."
Yeah, they had to do something about that. The 3D Dock looks terrible on the side. I wonder what they'll do to fix it though.
I never liked Aqua from day one. I wish Apple would have left the ability to have a Platinum choice like it was in DP3.
That is why I made Sosumi and Simple Aqua.
While I am upset that Apple isn't getting rid of the Aqua crap as far as I know, I know I can do it myself. So can many other people. So the option will be there.
And no, I wont be making it a SS theme. It will be an installer. I hate APE hacks.
I wont go into the fact Apple's own site doesn't have a bit of Aqua in it anymore. And they are no longer calling the GUI Aqua.
Don't make promises you can't Steve, but if you do, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people here to defend you when threads start too pop up to tell you about it.
"Steve never promised the death of Aqua" I know, but he promised consistency across the board, and he didn't deliver it.
Sure it might seem like a small thing, but it's important to its users, it should be important (especially) to Apple. We need to keep demanding excellence from them, or we'll never have a hope of them aiming to achieve it. Heck, they couldn't even give us the same scroll-bars in all the new iLife apps.
ok, a few questions 1 have you got a transcript of what steve said? not just the one line, but inplace in context please
2 have you a list of Apps that use the jelly beans and a list of the Apps that don't please?
I'm asking because I wanna understand WHY this is so much of a big deal/non problem. It seems to be on the one hand an anal retentive nit pick, but on the other a verifiable actually measurable thing.
ok, a few questions 1 have you got a transcript of what steve said? not just the one line, but inplace in context please
2 have you a list of Apps that use the jelly beans and a list of the Apps that don't please?
I'm asking because I wanna understand WHY this is so much of a big deal/non problem. It seems to be on the one hand an anal retentive nit pick, but on the other a verifiable actually measurable thing.
Jesus Walter I'm no way making lists, and you can Google that other thing.
Comments
The answer is not obvious. I can think of a few answers but Apple and some people here would take personal offense...I mean, people always feel offended when I talk bad about Apple developers.
Obviously the answer is not obvious,
Serious advice cooming up - when you are banging your head on the wall because you are "not getting through" step back from the wall, untill you can see the door, then, go through the door.
Why not accept the blue pill
anyway, the shorter version is
Maybe they decided to keep a bit of aqua since it is so highly recognizable, or maybe they wanted to keep a few colour highlights in the otherwise dull grey UI elements. Whatever the reason, a bit of aqua will remain in Leopard, whether you like it or not.
Thats my take on it.
--
I may do that, but I'd like to use it for about 3 weeks first.
Look forward to it
The Buttons and sliders and other Interface Builder options will evolve as IB evolves.
Does the Behavior of the OS confuse you with these gumdrops?
but i sort of like the look of the aqua scroll bars with leopard. It goes nice with the stoplight, which looks brighter .
bahhh
Holy crap! Piss in the wind much?
The Buttons and sliders and other Interface Builder options will evolve as IB evolves.
Does the Behavior of the OS confuse you with these gumdrops?
If Steve says there's a free steel mug with a minimal sand-blasted Apple logo coming with every new iMac, I'll write a post when that mug doesn't arrive in the box.
Don't make promises you can't Steve, but if you do, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people here to defend you when threads start too pop up to tell you about it.
"Steve never promised the death of Aqua" I know, but he promised consistency across the board, and he didn't deliver it.
Sure it might seem like a small thing, but it's important to its users, it should be important (especially) to Apple. We need to keep demanding excellence from them, or we'll never have a hope of them aiming to achieve it. Heck, they couldn't even give us the same scroll-bars in all the new iLife apps.
Undermining the integrity of the argument by calling such cares anal retentive is really no counter argument at all. Only childish. True anal retentiveness would be overly fussy over much smaller matters. This is completely obvious.
Yes, the anal retentive focus on a non-problem is completely obvious. The label is completely accurate.
Does user interface consistency issues get in the way of work? The answer is obvious.
So you agree it doesn't get in the way. That is an admission you are nitpicking over non-functional fu-fu.
However, we are not just talking "Good enough" Microsoft style, are we. This is Apple. This is a brand new OS and UI consistency is one of the main things it is touted for bringing to the table. It fails there. That is a big deal. This is a company that fusses over trying designing a computer with no visible screw for crying out loud. this is a company that won't use certain components to maintain a certain thinness of its products.
Some degree of inconsistency so long as it is purposed, would be fine. ala brushed metal vs gradient in Tiger. Not going to the iTunes theme, but neglecting to go all the way, promising a certain look with iLife, but then failing to put the proper polish in with the rest of the OS / apps.
When designers work on the look of something, they are paid to get it right. In this case, something is amiss. Apple seems so devoted to the iPhone right now that it looks great, but the new OS is looking somewhat like a beta. It looks like a mashup of two ideas and not a proper UI design.
Now, I said I am excited about the under the hood improvements and that is true. I will probably replace my Powerbook with a Macbook Pro right after Leopard comes out so that I can have that new OS (and an intel mac - still can't believe my two year old purchase is obsolete already) ASAP. However, I will hold out hope that point releases fix the UI inconsistencies along with the inevitable bugs.
To sum up, the UI should be consistent as it is actually a major selling point and it is apple and it is a new OS. Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow, but it does look not quite right and it seems amateurish. You have to agree that Apple looked like they were completing the look when you saw iLife 08. That is what they should have done.
That was a hell of a non-answer. Are you running for office somewhere?
Sure it might seem like a small thing, but it's important to its users, it should be important (especially) to Apple. We need to keep demanding excellence from them, or we'll never have a hope of them aiming to achieve it. Heck, they couldn't even give us the same scroll-bars in all the new iLife apps.
I'll admit it's important to you. It's not an issue for me, I LIKE it the way it is. Context is better highlighted this way, and unconsciously registering context lets work get done faster. Apple can feel free to continue to improve if it makes work easier to do or ancillary tasks less intrusive.
But please don't try to force Apple to change for changes sake by making false claims that the users feel its important. The users don't. You do. Big difference.
Let's just be honest here, it won't break the purchase decision for many and it won't affect performance or workflow...
I think we can all agree with 9secondko here.
Yes, it's beyond anal retention: it's full blown obsessive-compulsive disorder. And it is a valid argument, since it's hinged on the "you can't please all the people all the time" axiom. Crying bloody-murder because Apple is spending resources on more pivotal features instead of satisfying an impossibly small market sector -- now that's childish.
I could fix the changes myself in less than 2 hours. (I'd have to brush up on my themeing, haven't did it since Sosumi)
So time isn't the deal here.
The real point is that Steve said we'd be getting a consistent look across the board, and they didn't deliver on that promise. That point says it all. And it's not just opinion, they simply didn't do it.
Yup, then calling the theme "Unified' and taking all Aqua elements off the web page, I mean what the hell..
But I still have hope.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/200...#mon-22-indies
"Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release."
Yes, the anal retentive focus on a non-problem is completely obvious. The label is completely accurate.
Again... childish. And in no way a real argument. simply adjective based name calling basically. <sarcasm> Wow, that's a winner there. </sarcasm>
So you agree it doesn't get in the way. That is an admission you are nitpicking over non-functional fu-fu.
i agree that it does not get in the way of basic productivity. No one ever said it did. you are reaching a bit for solutions to an argument that never existed in this thread. If that is the best you can do, then you recognize that it is an issue as well, however minor. It is a big deal to someone like myself with an eye for design. Maybe for someone like yourself who can just get by it is fine and so be it, but for me and the others like me who have brought this subject up, it is simply exposing the unfinished stated of the UI.
And unless something is seriously wrong with Leopard, the scrollbars and buttons are very functional items. so your non-functional fu-fu is fu-fu in and of itself.
That was a hell of a non-answer. Are you running for office somewhere?
It is only a "non - answer" for someone what cannot understand what the argument is. If you are looking for one answer and never find it, then your simple mind reverts to "that does not compute." The answer is that the UI inconsistency is an issue because we were promised otherwise. We did not get it (unless, however unlikely, it is there in the shipping version, which does not match up with Leopards online tutorial). So basically, yeah, the UI is inconsistent and it is unfinished because of that.
Just for those of you who cannot seem to understand the points of this thread.
There was never an argument against usability, simply an argument about Apple's lack of polish in this case by shipping an OS running an amalgam of themes. The leopard theme is the iTunes them, albeit carried forth only half way. That is about it. We would like to have seen either a better theme as the iTunes theme is very old now, or at least the new theme carried to its logical conclusion and polished off. Nothing so wrong about that. Apple can do it too. But people like you just cannot understand the simplicity of the argument and so you have to try to make it other than what it is. then you get all personal. Then you have to fire back at something that was never an attack to begin with. That is not only anal retentive, but obsessive-compulsive as well.
Folks, this is simply about looks. Something entire agencies are built upon, web designers are hired and fired for, models and movie stars get casted by, Apple is known for, and something Leopard should deliver. Sure it delivers under the hood, but it mostly stops there. We expected better. The company that prides itself in building computers with only one visible or no visible screws is the company that I expect to pay attention to matters such as this. It is pretty glaring actually.
Again, hopefully, it can be addressed later. As far as those who thought the OS UI could not be addressed in a point release, they do it with iTunes, that the new Finder is based on and they were able to give the Safari theme to Windows. Apple CAN do it, it is just a question of IF they will. itunes has changed a few times. Here's hoping we aren't stuck with UI inconsistency for too long after launch.
The bubbly buttons just don't fit with the rest of the interface nor with Apple new site as someone pointed out. Look at the black scrollbar on the Mac link on Apple's site. The scrollbar even looks more at home on 10.4 than the jelly-beans.
"Another thing to keep in mind is that the GM version of 10.5.0 definitely contains at least some significant differences from the last version seeded via ADC to developers. Anyone taking screenshots of the Dock on the side of the screen, for example, is going to have to retake them after installing the public release."
Yeah, they had to do something about that. The 3D Dock looks terrible on the side. I wonder what they'll do to fix it though.
That is why I made Sosumi and Simple Aqua.
While I am upset that Apple isn't getting rid of the Aqua crap as far as I know, I know I can do it myself. So can many other people. So the option will be there.
And no, I wont be making it a SS theme. It will be an installer. I hate APE hacks.
I wont go into the fact Apple's own site doesn't have a bit of Aqua in it anymore. And they are no longer calling the GUI Aqua.
I wont go into the fact Apple's own site doesn't have a bit of Aqua in it anymore. And they are no longer calling the GUI Aqua.
Cool, well spotted.
Yeah, they had to do something about that. The 3D Dock looks terrible on the side. I wonder what they'll do to fix it though.
macrumors has the scoop on the new dock in the retail edition of Leopard when placed on the side.
Looks like the old one but with an outline.
Here's the scoop:
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/...visual-tweaks/
macrumors has the scoop on the new dock in the retail edition of Leopard when placed on the side.
Looks like the old one but with an outline.
Here's the scoop:
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/...visual-tweaks/
WOAH! now teres a REAL inconsistency! I guess its only a matter of time before we see a boycott leopard because of the Dock type thread.
Don't make promises you can't Steve, but if you do, I'm sure there'll be plenty of people here to defend you when threads start too pop up to tell you about it.
"Steve never promised the death of Aqua" I know, but he promised consistency across the board, and he didn't deliver it.
Sure it might seem like a small thing, but it's important to its users, it should be important (especially) to Apple. We need to keep demanding excellence from them, or we'll never have a hope of them aiming to achieve it. Heck, they couldn't even give us the same scroll-bars in all the new iLife apps.
ok, a few questions 1 have you got a transcript of what steve said? not just the one line, but inplace in context please
2 have you a list of Apps that use the jelly beans and a list of the Apps that don't please?
I'm asking because I wanna understand WHY this is so much of a big deal/non problem. It seems to be on the one hand an anal retentive nit pick, but on the other a verifiable actually measurable thing.
ok, a few questions 1 have you got a transcript of what steve said? not just the one line, but inplace in context please
2 have you a list of Apps that use the jelly beans and a list of the Apps that don't please?
I'm asking because I wanna understand WHY this is so much of a big deal/non problem. It seems to be on the one hand an anal retentive nit pick, but on the other a verifiable actually measurable thing.
Jesus Walter I'm no way making lists, and you can Google that other thing.