I freely admit, I'm as liberally treehugging as they come, but c'mon....the antenna...10% of it by weight is bromide....that's what a couple nanograms?
Well said, as to be honest I think this is all exaggerated.
What makes a product 'good' isn't how green it is, but many things - Apple shouldn't casted beside as being a good cellphone manufacturer just because traces of PVC and such can be found in their products - that's bullshit.
Using Apple to draw press attention to an issue is a terrible, terrible, unforgiveable crime... but I have to say, if these toxins ARE avoidable (and they DO add up when many units are sold), then maybe... just maybe... it's worth it to improve the situation
That's a big IF. Frankly, most of the things they cite are quite legal in most of the US and quite standards in products you buy everywhere.
The only thing that gives them a chance is the bizarre California law which says that it's illegal to sell ANY product with ANY amount of ANYTHING known to be a carcinogen. Sorry to point it out to these pinheads, but you can find insignificant traces of carcinogens in everything ever made. It's an inane law and I hope the Supreme Court gets around to striking it down some time.
Frakking linked off the main damn page of Apple.com.
Do I need to wipe you ass in the toilet too, or are you capable of pulling paper off the roll? Because your displayed lack of ability to do the most rudimentary basic research is appallingly pathetic.
And OBTW: It's still LEGAL to put phthalates in BABY BOTTLES and TEETHING RINGS in the US and state of California! The governator signed a law last night that finally addresses phthalates for products made for YOUNG CHILDREN, and manufactured in 2009. I don't think internal components are liable to be eaten or used as a teething ring by young children. Not to mention that is they aren't even illegal for those uses WTF is the big deal that they are inside a phone?
Why anyone would switch from glass baby bottles to plastic still baffles the mind. Go into a Chem lab. You won't see their main mixing beakers made from plastic. They are all glass and for good reason.
Why anyone would switch from glass baby bottles to plastic still baffles the mind. Go into a Chem lab. You won't see their main mixing beakers made from plastic. They are all glass and for good reason.
Not true. There are quite a few lines of plastic labware. They can be more expensive than glassware. But, they aren't usually made of PVC, though the chemical tanks on most of my film processors were made of that.
There are others, for more exotic uses, but these are the more common ones. They are from my Cole-Palmer (www.coleparmer.com) Lab catalog.
People here are confusing the "hard" PVs with the "soft" PVC's.
These are very different.
The soft PVC's like the ones used in car seats, coverings for wires, etc., have plasticisers that are given off. You can smell that in a new car. Those are considered to be dangerous. The hard PVC's don't use plasticisers that evaporate, but are given off, along with other dangerous compounds, when the plastic is heated a good deal, such as when being welded, or particularly when burned (very bad!). When I weld PVC, I wear an organic substance gas mask. That's required, though some don't do it.
This is a hot issue for us Apple users, but it is partly Apple's fault that Greenpeace is after them. They've made statements over the years about being "green", but haven't really done as much as they could have for being so forward on the issue.
“Like all Apple products worldwide, iPhone complies with RoHS [Restriction of Hazardous Substances], the world’s toughest restrictions on toxic substances in electronics,” an Apple spokesperson, told Macworld. “As we have said, Apple will voluntarily eliminate the use of PVC and BFRs by the end of 2008.”
Well Apple has laid out a time frame to eliminate these chemicals. Two points that weaken GP complaints is they really don't make a great context to how bad Apple is in comparison to others. And its obvious they use Apple for press coverage.
Its fair enough to complain that you would like Apple to eliminate these toxic elements faster. I haven't seen anyone list where every other manufacturer is in this regard. Most everyone else are still using some type of toxic element that they plan to stop using at some point in the future.
The iPhone does not use cadmium or mercury - and small trace amounts of lead and chromium. This is progress that GP downplayed because it does not support their hyperbolic claims.
OK I take back one of my complaints GP does list which companies are the best or worst. But as you look at them closely the ranking seems uneven at best.
Probably what makes this difficult as each company is doing everything at different rates and time frames. Each company is executing various programs at different rates of effectiveness.
This is progress that GP downplayed because it does not support their hyperbolic claims.
I bet there's more publicity (cheaper by probably an order of magnitude) in suing Apple than you could get if you took out advertisements in all the mainstream channels.
Greenpeace are flaming idiots. One-point-five percent!?
October 17th, 2007 at 9:54 am 3
GreenPeace has made themselves into a group of clowns. They have lost all credibility?what a shame. They need a change in leadership?just like any other political organization that has been around for too long, they appear to have corrupted because a few powerful extremists are really running the show. The group seems to have totally forgotten what made them so awesome?like saving the whales. Someone should ask their leadership what happened to really telling the truth about things. Why aren?t they outraged about all the pollution coming out of China and the people dying there and the fallout from there coming here and poluting our air as well as our products. Why don?t they do something important like addressing what is really poisening the world.
China sells lead based painted toys, and toothpaste laces with antifreeze. And "Green peace" is worried about the insides of a cell phone. Pathetic...... just pathetic......
GreenPeace has made themselves into a group of clowns. They have lost all credibility…what a shame. They need a change in leadership…just like any other political organization that has been around for too long, they appear to have corrupted because a few powerful extremists are really running the show. The group seems to have totally forgotten what made them so awesome…like saving the whales. Someone should ask their leadership what happened to really telling the truth about things. Why aren’t they outraged about all the pollution coming out of China and the people dying there and the fallout from there coming here and poluting our air as well as our products. Why don’t they do something important like addressing what is really poisening the world.
Just an FYI the USA leads the world in putting dirt into the air and letting the fallout go over the rest of the world.
Just an FYI the USA leads the world in putting dirt into the air and letting the fallout go over the rest of the world.
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
I know the US leads in *per-capita* of the major countries in polluting the air, but dirt? I don't think what the US puts dirt in the air unless it's a euphemism like saying we're putting lots of sh!t in the air.
I think China's beat the US in *total* air pollution, but I need to look that up to make sure I'm not misremembering.
Not true. There are quite a few lines of plastic labware. They can be more expensive than glassware. But, they aren't usually made of PVC, though the chemical tanks on most of my film processors were made of that.
There are others, for more exotic uses, but these are the more common ones. They are from my Cole-Palmer (www.coleparmer.com) Lab catalog.
People here are confusing the "hard" PVs with the "soft" PVC's.
These are very different.
The soft PVC's like the ones used in car seats, coverings for wires, etc., have plasticisers that are given off. You can smell that in a new car. Those are considered to be dangerous. The hard PVC's don't use plasticisers that evaporate, but are given off, along with other dangerous compounds, when the plastic is heated a good deal, such as when being welded, or particularly when burned (very bad!). When I weld PVC, I wear an organic substance gas mask. That's required, though some don't do it.
Mel, you never fail to amaze. I didn't take chemistry (strangely enough, as I thought it was a required course), but it certainly is a fascinating subject.
I know the US leads in *per-capita* of the major countries in polluting the air, but dirt? I don't think what the US puts dirt in the air unless it's a euphemism like saying we're putting lots of sh!t in the air.
I think China's beat the US in *total* air pollution, but I need to look that up to make sure I'm not misremembering.
You are correct. In fact, the polluted air produced in China that drifts our way actually affects the US's air quality!
China sells lead based painted toys, and toothpaste laces with antifreeze. And "Green peace" is worried about the insides of a cell phone. Pathetic...... just pathetic......
Years ago, I was a member of Greenpeace. I dropped out because some of their tactics go overboard. They are an advocacy organization. I agree with their principles, but not always with how they do it.
But, they do put pressure where it needs to be put—if they can.
Greenpeace has absolutely NO influence within China, so they spend their energies where they will have an effect.
Just an FYI the USA leads the world in putting dirt into the air and letting the fallout go over the rest of the world.
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
China will surpass us later this year. or early next, some think they already have, and while our output is almost at a standstill, theirs is roaring ahead.
Not true. There are quite a few lines of plastic labware. They can be more expensive than glassware. But, they aren't usually made of PVC, though the chemical tanks on most of my film processors were made of that.
This has zippo with the kind of plastics used in baby bottles. The concern was for bisphenol-A (BPA) leeching out of baby bootles under use. I note that BPA was not in the alphabet soup you listed. Nor is acytel tributyl citrate (ATBC)...the other plasticizer of potential concern in baby bottles.
Now there is disagreement if BPA actually leeches out of baby bottles under use and if BPA is really a carcinogen or impacts growth. But the scientific answer is "no at the limits of testing" and "once, but the result was not replicated desipte repeated tries".
ATBC is made from citric acid and is often present in citris fruit.
Quote:
People here are confusing the "hard" PVs with the "soft" PVC's.
No one is confusing anything. The leeching of stuff from flexible plastic wraps in microwaves is a different issue. If this stuff bothers you, only reheat stuff in glass or ceramic containers.
Heck, can you even buy glass baby bottles anymore? I haven't noticed any and I made halfhearted attempt to get some when my wife (the chemist) objected to using the plastic bottles in the microwave. But I notice her doing the same thing when push comes to shove.
This has zippo with the kind of plastics used in baby bottles. The concern was for bisphenol-A (BPA) leeching out of baby bootles under use. I note that BPA was not in the alphabet soup you listed. Nor is acytel tributyl citrate (ATBC)...the other plasticizer of potential concern in baby bottles.
You may have noticed that my post was in regard to labware, not baby bottles. Please don't confuse issues.
Quote:
Now there is disagreement if BPA actually leeches out of baby bottles under use and if BPA is really a carcinogen or impacts growth. But the scientific answer is "no at the limits of testing" and "once, but the result was not replicated desipte repeated tries".
ATBC is made from citric acid and is often present in citris fruit.
I'm familiar with the controversy, but it may be for nothing.
Quote:
No one is confusing anything. The leeching of stuff from flexible plastic wraps in microwaves is a different issue. If this stuff bothers you, only reheat stuff in glass or ceramic containers.
Yes, there is confusion, even though are saying there is not. I'm aware of this, but I'll bet that most others here are not. The issues of air temperature leeching is present with all soft PVC's (just smell them, particularly when they are new), and not considered to be a problem with the hard ones, as witnessed by the fact that PVC is allowed for potable water systems, but only particular soft PVC's (which are called vinyls) are allowed for the same purpose. That is, only some vinyls are allowed.
Quote:
Heck, can you even buy glass baby bottles anymore? I haven't noticed any and I made halfhearted attempt to get some when my wife (the chemist) objected to using the plastic bottles in the microwave. But I notice her doing the same thing when push comes to shove.
Vinea
The number of accidents with glass baby bottles was an issue years ago. Bottles exploding when heated with milk inside (people don't listen about heating the milk, and THEN pouring it into the bottle), babies, and their caregivers dropping, and breaking bottles, with injuries to either, etc. Plastic was considered to be safer. Older testing methods didn't detect all emissions from the plastic, but can now do so.
Baby bottles today are often made of PMMA (Polymethyl methacrylate), or PMP (Polymethylpentane). But, I'm not going to pretend I can vouch for every manufacturer.
Comments
I freely admit, I'm as liberally treehugging as they come, but c'mon....the antenna...10% of it by weight is bromide....that's what a couple nanograms?
Well said, as to be honest I think this is all exaggerated.
What makes a product 'good' isn't how green it is, but many things - Apple shouldn't casted beside as being a good cellphone manufacturer just because traces of PVC and such can be found in their products - that's bullshit.
Using Apple to draw press attention to an issue is a terrible, terrible, unforgiveable crime... but I have to say, if these toxins ARE avoidable (and they DO add up when many units are sold), then maybe... just maybe... it's worth it to improve the situation
That's a big IF. Frankly, most of the things they cite are quite legal in most of the US and quite standards in products you buy everywhere.
The only thing that gives them a chance is the bizarre California law which says that it's illegal to sell ANY product with ANY amount of ANYTHING known to be a carcinogen. Sorry to point it out to these pinheads, but you can find insignificant traces of carcinogens in everything ever made. It's an inane law and I hope the Supreme Court gets around to striking it down some time.
Won't Someone Think Of The Children?
Good point. Why is Greenpeace trying to deprive them of great phones?
Your ignorance shouldn't be our problem.
Frakking linked off the main damn page of Apple.com.
Do I need to wipe you ass in the toilet too, or are you capable of pulling paper off the roll? Because your displayed lack of ability to do the most rudimentary basic research is appallingly pathetic.
And OBTW: It's still LEGAL to put phthalates in BABY BOTTLES and TEETHING RINGS in the US and state of California! The governator signed a law last night that finally addresses phthalates for products made for YOUNG CHILDREN, and manufactured in 2009. I don't think internal components are liable to be eaten or used as a teething ring by young children. Not to mention that is they aren't even illegal for those uses WTF is the big deal that they are inside a phone?
Why anyone would switch from glass baby bottles to plastic still baffles the mind. Go into a Chem lab. You won't see their main mixing beakers made from plastic. They are all glass and for good reason.
Why anyone would switch from glass baby bottles to plastic still baffles the mind. Go into a Chem lab. You won't see their main mixing beakers made from plastic. They are all glass and for good reason.
Not true. There are quite a few lines of plastic labware. They can be more expensive than glassware. But, they aren't usually made of PVC, though the chemical tanks on most of my film processors were made of that.
Some of the materials in use for this are:
ECTFE, ETFE, FEP, FLPE, FLPP, HDPE, LDPE, NYL, PPCO, PC, PETG, PK, PFA, PMMA, PMP, PP, PS, PSF, PTFE, PUR, PVC, PVDF, TPE, XLPE
There are others, for more exotic uses, but these are the more common ones. They are from my Cole-Palmer (www.coleparmer.com) Lab catalog.
People here are confusing the "hard" PVs with the "soft" PVC's.
These are very different.
The soft PVC's like the ones used in car seats, coverings for wires, etc., have plasticisers that are given off. You can smell that in a new car. Those are considered to be dangerous. The hard PVC's don't use plasticisers that evaporate, but are given off, along with other dangerous compounds, when the plastic is heated a good deal, such as when being welded, or particularly when burned (very bad!). When I weld PVC, I wear an organic substance gas mask. That's required, though some don't do it.
This is a hot issue for us Apple users, but it is partly Apple's fault that Greenpeace is after them. They've made statements over the years about being "green", but haven't really done as much as they could have for being so forward on the issue.
“Like all Apple products worldwide, iPhone complies with RoHS [Restriction of Hazardous Substances], the world’s toughest restrictions on toxic substances in electronics,” an Apple spokesperson, told Macworld. “As we have said, Apple will voluntarily eliminate the use of PVC and BFRs by the end of 2008.”
Well Apple has laid out a time frame to eliminate these chemicals. Two points that weaken GP complaints is they really don't make a great context to how bad Apple is in comparison to others. And its obvious they use Apple for press coverage.
Its fair enough to complain that you would like Apple to eliminate these toxic elements faster. I haven't seen anyone list where every other manufacturer is in this regard. Most everyone else are still using some type of toxic element that they plan to stop using at some point in the future.
The iPhone does not use cadmium or mercury - and small trace amounts of lead and chromium. This is progress that GP downplayed because it does not support their hyperbolic claims.
Probably what makes this difficult as each company is doing everything at different rates and time frames. Each company is executing various programs at different rates of effectiveness.
This is progress that GP downplayed because it does not support their hyperbolic claims.
I bet there's more publicity (cheaper by probably an order of magnitude) in suing Apple than you could get if you took out advertisements in all the mainstream channels.
GP is a media whore of the worst stripe.
Greenpeace are flaming idiots. One-point-five percent!?
October 17th, 2007 at 9:54 am 3
GreenPeace has made themselves into a group of clowns. They have lost all credibility?what a shame. They need a change in leadership?just like any other political organization that has been around for too long, they appear to have corrupted because a few powerful extremists are really running the show. The group seems to have totally forgotten what made them so awesome?like saving the whales. Someone should ask their leadership what happened to really telling the truth about things. Why aren?t they outraged about all the pollution coming out of China and the people dying there and the fallout from there coming here and poluting our air as well as our products. Why don?t they do something important like addressing what is really poisening the world.
GreenPeace has made themselves into a group of clowns. They have lost all credibility…what a shame. They need a change in leadership…just like any other political organization that has been around for too long, they appear to have corrupted because a few powerful extremists are really running the show. The group seems to have totally forgotten what made them so awesome…like saving the whales. Someone should ask their leadership what happened to really telling the truth about things. Why aren’t they outraged about all the pollution coming out of China and the people dying there and the fallout from there coming here and poluting our air as well as our products. Why don’t they do something important like addressing what is really poisening the world.
Just an FYI the USA leads the world in putting dirt into the air and letting the fallout go over the rest of the world.
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
Just an FYI the USA leads the world in putting dirt into the air and letting the fallout go over the rest of the world.
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
I know the US leads in *per-capita* of the major countries in polluting the air, but dirt? I don't think what the US puts dirt in the air unless it's a euphemism like saying we're putting lots of sh!t in the air.
I think China's beat the US in *total* air pollution, but I need to look that up to make sure I'm not misremembering.
Not true. There are quite a few lines of plastic labware. They can be more expensive than glassware. But, they aren't usually made of PVC, though the chemical tanks on most of my film processors were made of that.
Some of the materials in use for this are:
ECTFE, ETFE, FEP, FLPE, FLPP, HDPE, LDPE, NYL, PPCO, PC, PETG, PK, PFA, PMMA, PMP, PP, PS, PSF, PTFE, PUR, PVC, PVDF, TPE, XLPE
There are others, for more exotic uses, but these are the more common ones. They are from my Cole-Palmer (www.coleparmer.com) Lab catalog.
People here are confusing the "hard" PVs with the "soft" PVC's.
These are very different.
The soft PVC's like the ones used in car seats, coverings for wires, etc., have plasticisers that are given off. You can smell that in a new car. Those are considered to be dangerous. The hard PVC's don't use plasticisers that evaporate, but are given off, along with other dangerous compounds, when the plastic is heated a good deal, such as when being welded, or particularly when burned (very bad!). When I weld PVC, I wear an organic substance gas mask. That's required, though some don't do it.
Mel, you never fail to amaze. I didn't take chemistry (strangely enough, as I thought it was a required course), but it certainly is a fascinating subject.
I know the US leads in *per-capita* of the major countries in polluting the air, but dirt? I don't think what the US puts dirt in the air unless it's a euphemism like saying we're putting lots of sh!t in the air.
I think China's beat the US in *total* air pollution, but I need to look that up to make sure I'm not misremembering.
You are correct. In fact, the polluted air produced in China that drifts our way actually affects the US's air quality!
China sells lead based painted toys, and toothpaste laces with antifreeze. And "Green peace" is worried about the insides of a cell phone. Pathetic...... just pathetic......
Years ago, I was a member of Greenpeace. I dropped out because some of their tactics go overboard. They are an advocacy organization. I agree with their principles, but not always with how they do it.
But, they do put pressure where it needs to be put—if they can.
Greenpeace has absolutely NO influence within China, so they spend their energies where they will have an effect.
Just an FYI the USA leads the world in putting dirt into the air and letting the fallout go over the rest of the world.
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
China will surpass us later this year. or early next, some think they already have, and while our output is almost at a standstill, theirs is roaring ahead.
Not true. There are quite a few lines of plastic labware. They can be more expensive than glassware. But, they aren't usually made of PVC, though the chemical tanks on most of my film processors were made of that.
This has zippo with the kind of plastics used in baby bottles. The concern was for bisphenol-A (BPA) leeching out of baby bootles under use. I note that BPA was not in the alphabet soup you listed. Nor is acytel tributyl citrate (ATBC)...the other plasticizer of potential concern in baby bottles.
Now there is disagreement if BPA actually leeches out of baby bottles under use and if BPA is really a carcinogen or impacts growth. But the scientific answer is "no at the limits of testing" and "once, but the result was not replicated desipte repeated tries".
ATBC is made from citric acid and is often present in citris fruit.
People here are confusing the "hard" PVs with the "soft" PVC's.
No one is confusing anything. The leeching of stuff from flexible plastic wraps in microwaves is a different issue. If this stuff bothers you, only reheat stuff in glass or ceramic containers.
Heck, can you even buy glass baby bottles anymore? I haven't noticed any and I made halfhearted attempt to get some when my wife (the chemist) objected to using the plastic bottles in the microwave. But I notice her doing the same thing when push comes to shove.
Vinea
This has zippo with the kind of plastics used in baby bottles. The concern was for bisphenol-A (BPA) leeching out of baby bootles under use. I note that BPA was not in the alphabet soup you listed. Nor is acytel tributyl citrate (ATBC)...the other plasticizer of potential concern in baby bottles.
You may have noticed that my post was in regard to labware, not baby bottles. Please don't confuse issues.
Now there is disagreement if BPA actually leeches out of baby bottles under use and if BPA is really a carcinogen or impacts growth. But the scientific answer is "no at the limits of testing" and "once, but the result was not replicated desipte repeated tries".
ATBC is made from citric acid and is often present in citris fruit.
I'm familiar with the controversy, but it may be for nothing.
No one is confusing anything. The leeching of stuff from flexible plastic wraps in microwaves is a different issue. If this stuff bothers you, only reheat stuff in glass or ceramic containers.
Yes, there is confusion, even though are saying there is not. I'm aware of this, but I'll bet that most others here are not. The issues of air temperature leeching is present with all soft PVC's (just smell them, particularly when they are new), and not considered to be a problem with the hard ones, as witnessed by the fact that PVC is allowed for potable water systems, but only particular soft PVC's (which are called vinyls) are allowed for the same purpose. That is, only some vinyls are allowed.
Heck, can you even buy glass baby bottles anymore? I haven't noticed any and I made halfhearted attempt to get some when my wife (the chemist) objected to using the plastic bottles in the microwave. But I notice her doing the same thing when push comes to shove.
Vinea
The number of accidents with glass baby bottles was an issue years ago. Bottles exploding when heated with milk inside (people don't listen about heating the milk, and THEN pouring it into the bottle), babies, and their caregivers dropping, and breaking bottles, with injuries to either, etc. Plastic was considered to be safer. Older testing methods didn't detect all emissions from the plastic, but can now do so.
Baby bottles today are often made of PMMA (Polymethyl methacrylate), or PMP (Polymethylpentane). But, I'm not going to pretend I can vouch for every manufacturer.