Learn the Truth about 9/11!

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  • Reply 81 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    I have looked, but I don't completely buy it. I am not sure that the planes didn't strike as suggested; I do have my doubts, but that's that and I will keep looking. I also have major problems with the emergency response to the crisis as it unfolded. If we accept everything or even most of what is claimed to have happened on that day, then the attackers knew exactly where and how to hit us and get away with it... almost too well.. and the system failed, utterly, something the attackers might have anticipated.



    My main question was the one in the previous post, the one that was not answered and is the more important question: what about the sitting Bush?



    And that Osama had been fingered before the end of the day? This alone suggests they knew more than they are saying.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemb...of_the_attacks

    11:30: Before sleeping, Bush enters into his diary: "The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today...We think it's Osama bin Laden."



    Pearl Harbor was used as a catalyst to get the US into WWII, for better or for worse. 9/11 was also used to start a war, for better or for worse.



    ... from the get go, based on past (pre 9-11) history alone. That would have been my belief anyway, but like I"ve always said, I'd need some corroborative evidence to turn that belief into a high probability fact.



    On the other hand, you have Bush and the neocon artists, where beliefs are "factually" based (e. g. where Iraq had WMD's becomes Iraq has (and is building or acquiring new) WMD's (including nuclear) and was directly involved in the 9-11 attacks (although I never bought that last one). \



    Unfortunately, most of Americans (including myself) took the neocon bait hook, line, and sinker (RE: Iraq, although I always thought the initial force size was too small to secure Iraq after occupation, the neocon artists screwed that one up big time). \



    BTW, prior to 9-11 I always carried a small (3 inch) pocketknife, wherever I went, including flights, I always took in out and placed it in the small security container with my keys, etceteras, and I always got it back. And that always made me wonder, why did they let me keep my pocketknife (nee weapon).
  • Reply 82 of 152
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,929member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    I have looked, but I don't completely buy it. I am not sure that the planes didn't strike as suggested; I do have my doubts, but that's that and I will keep looking. I also have major problems with the emergency response to the crisis as it unfolded. If we accept everything or even most of what is claimed to have happened on that day, then the attackers knew exactly where and how to hit us and get away with it... almost too well.. and the system failed, utterly, something the attackers might have anticipated.



    My main question was the one in the previous post, the one that was not answered and is the more important question: what about the sitting Bush?



    And that Osama had been fingered before the end of the day? This alone suggests they knew more than they are saying.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemb...of_the_attacks

    11:30: Before sleeping, Bush enters into his diary: "The Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today...We think it's Osama bin Laden."



    Pearl Harbor was used as a catalyst to get the US into WWII, for better or for worse. 9/11 was also used to start a war, for better or for worse.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    Can we hear again the reasoning behind POTUS remaining in a static and vulnerable position for 8 minutes when his chief of staff has just informed him the US was under attack?



    No immediate danger to the POTUS? Bull. There was an unknown attack commencing, requiring full protection just in case. At the very least, he needed to start leading the country in a time of crisis.



    From Wiki:

    The president stated later that he decided to continue the lesson rather than alarm the students.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemb...of_the_attacks



    As a teacher, I can say that he instilled more alarm in more students (and indeed many people in the country and around the world) by not acting promptly.



    Has anyone analyzed his speech at the school that day that seemed rather well-written for something that would have had only five minutes or less to throw together?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    What about the two crashes that left almost no debris?



    The PA crash site has less debris than the Challenger crash, yet more than the Pentagon crash. In the latter, though no engines supposedly survived the crash, suggesting a very destructive crash, there was a pristine piece of identifiable plane body lying conveniently off to the side for a reporter to find. oops, what about the hole in the building? Where did those engines go? David Copperfield is under investigation at the moment; was he going to divulge the secret?



    Where are the video tapes? Where are the tapes? Again, where are the tapes? Two or three choice frames that show nothing do little to appease a thirst to know what really happened.



    There are so many questions and so much doubt because of the behavior of the government. If they were a little more open and forth-coming, things might be different. They haven't been, and so people naturally doubt.



    You've pointed some interesting questions, some curiosities, and some things that don't pique my interest at all. But you've presented absolutely zero evidence, only speculation....which is of course my point.
  • Reply 83 of 152
    Trying to avoid answering again, SDW? You are getting pretty good at it.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_timeline



    Evidence:

    8:55 Bush told a plane hit a tower (though he was told it was a small plane)

    9:03 Bush enters classroom

    9:05 Card tells Bush, "America is under attack"

    9:15 Bush leaves the classroom

    9:29 Bush gives speech from the school, even taking a moment of silence

    9:35 Bush leaves the school

    9:55 Air Force One leaves the ground



    That is an entire hour that POTUS is on the ground at a publicly known location that is completely unprotected. Fifty minutes after learning the country is under attack. Nobody knows the scope of the attack, so the worst must be assumed. Air Force One is also on the ground at the airport the entire time. Both are essentially sitting ducks.



    Once airborne, AFO then dances around to be as stealthy as possible, the prez disappears. So, once in the air, they take evasive action, thinking the threat is real enough. However, it was not real enough while Bush was at school. He thought he would not alarm the students.



    Why did the Secret Service (the SS) not whisk him away? It did not seem to be on their minds, either.



    Why did Bush stay at the school?

    Why was he allowed to stay unprotected?



    Why?
  • Reply 85 of 152
    Flight 77:























    Hi-res photos of charred victims recovered or still strapped in their seats.



    See? Not hard to find.
  • Reply 86 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


    On the other hand, you have Bush and the neocon artists, where beliefs are "factually" based (e. g. where Iraq had WMD's becomes Iraq has (and is building or acquiring new) WMD's (including nuclear) and was directly involved in the 9-11 attacks (although I never bought that last one). \



    Unfortunately, most of Americans (including myself) took the neocon bait hook, line, and sinker (RE: Iraq, although I always thought the initial force size was too small to secure Iraq after occupation, the neocon artists screwed that one up big time). \



    BTW, prior to 9-11 I always carried a small (3 inch) pocketknife, wherever I went, including flights, I always took in out and placed it in the small security container with my keys, etceteras, and I always got it back. And that always made me wonder, why did they let me keep my pocketknife (nee weapon).





    Thankfully, I was not in the states in 2001 an was able to avoid getting drawn into the dribble; I was able to balance my news intake between a variety of international sources that did not all follow the party line. I think it would have been very difficult living in the US through all of this.
  • Reply 87 of 152
    Thanks Artman, I have found lots of stuff. I still don't buy the whole thing (not just the planes and buildings) which I think prevents me from buying many of the individual parts.
  • Reply 88 of 152
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    Thanks Artman, I have found lots of stuff. I still don't buy the whole thing (not just the planes and buildings) which I think prevents me from buying many of the individual parts.



    Re. The Pentagon:



    If you have any doubts as to what impacted that morning, this analysis looks sound.



  • Reply 89 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    Trying to avoid answering again, SDW? You are getting pretty good at it.



    ,



    Evidence:

    8:55 Bush told a plane hit a tower (though he was told it was a small plane)

    9:03 Bush enters classroom

    9:05 Card tells Bush, "America is under attack"

    9:15 Bush leaves the classroom

    9:29 Bush gives speech from the school, even taking a moment of silence

    9:35 Bush leaves the school

    9:55 Air Force One leaves the ground



    That is an entire hour that POTUS is on the ground at a publicly known location that is completely unprotected. Fifty minutes after learning the country is under attack. Nobody knows the scope of the attack, so the worst must be assumed. Air Force One is also on the ground at the airport the entire time. Both are essentially sitting ducks.



    Once airborne, AFO then dances around to be as stealthy as possible, the prez disappears. So, once in the air, they take evasive action, thinking the threat is real enough. However, it was not real enough while Bush was at school. He thought he would not alarm the students.



    Why did the Secret Service (the SS) not whisk him away? It did not seem to be on their minds, either.



    Why did Bush stay at the school?

    Why was he allowed to stay unprotected?



    Why?



    Do you work for the SS? Do you know all the security measures used to protect the POTUS during public events? 747 in stealth mode? The military has a bunch of planes, and radar systems, but why assume they had eyes in the sky.



    The last known hijacked plane;



    Quote:

    10:03:11: United Airlines Flight 93 is crashed by its hijackers 80 miles (129 k) southeast of Pittsburgh in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.[6] Later reports indicate that passengers had learned about the World Trade Center and Pentagon crashes on cell phones and at least three were planning on resisting the hijackers; the resistance was confirmed by Flight 93's cockpit voice recording, on which the hijackers are heard making their decision to down the plane before the passengers succeed in breaching the cockpit door. The 9/11 Commission believed that Flight 93's target was either the United States Capitol building or the White House in Washington, D.C.



    So given that GWB was at least 2 hours flying time from any known hijacked plane, given that he was in Sarasota, Florida, and given that none of us have a clue as to SS security measures, and/or additional military support, ... I guess we'll just assume he had prior knowledge of the specifics of the attacks that day. \
  • Reply 90 of 152
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,929member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    Trying to avoid answering again, SDW? You are getting pretty good at it.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_timeline



    Evidence:

    8:55 Bush told a plane hit a tower (though he was told it was a small plane)

    9:03 Bush enters classroom

    9:05 Card tells Bush, "America is under attack"

    9:15 Bush leaves the classroom

    9:29 Bush gives speech from the school, even taking a moment of silence

    9:35 Bush leaves the school

    9:55 Air Force One leaves the ground



    That is an entire hour that POTUS is on the ground at a publicly known location that is completely unprotected. Fifty minutes after learning the country is under attack. Nobody knows the scope of the attack, so the worst must be assumed. Air Force One is also on the ground at the airport the entire time. Both are essentially sitting ducks.



    Once airborne, AFO then dances around to be as stealthy as possible, the prez disappears. So, once in the air, they take evasive action, thinking the threat is real enough. However, it was not real enough while Bush was at school. He thought he would not alarm the students.



    Why did the Secret Service (the SS) not whisk him away? It did not seem to be on their minds, either.



    Why did Bush stay at the school?

    Why was he allowed to stay unprotected?



    Why?



    These are questions. Say it with me...QUESTIONS.



    They do not constitute "evidence" of anything. All you did was repost the same thing you did before in timeline format. I AGREE that Bush remaining was odd. But it proves absolutely nothing.
  • Reply 91 of 152
    Quote:

    Evidence:

    8:55 Bush told a plane hit a tower (though he was told it was a small plane)

    9:03 Bush enters classroom

    9:05 Card tells Bush, "America is under attack"



    It IS these ten minutes I don't get...




    9:15 Bush leaves the classroom

    9:29 Bush gives speech from the school, even taking a moment of silence

    9:35 Bush leaves the school

    9:55 Air Force One leaves the ground







    You really wonder what was going on in that mind of his then...\



    Again, it comes to this. First time in American history that terrorists; hijacked 4 planes, overtook the controls, flew them into prime targets within a span of two hours.



    Cheney knew what to do (had for thirty years). Rumsfeld knew what to do. Bush could very well have been out of the loop. Or realized just how much of a puppet he really was next to Cheney and Rumsfeld.
  • Reply 92 of 152
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    That little sign behind him says it all. He knows that reading makes a country great.



    He is the decider, and he decided that reading was very important.
  • Reply 93 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    That little sign behind him says it all. He knows that reading makes a country great.



    He is the decider, and he decided that reading was very important.







  • Reply 94 of 152
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


    Do you work for the SS? Do you know all the security measures used to protect the POTUS during public events? 747 in stealth mode? The military has a bunch of planes, and radar systems, but why assume they had eyes in the sky.



    The last known hijacked plane;



    So given that GWB was at least 2 hours flying time from any known hijacked plane, given that he was in Sarasota, Florida, and given that none of us have a clue as to SS security measures, and/or additional military support, ... I guess we'll just assume he had prior knowledge of the specifics of the attacks that day. \



    Bush's whereabouts on the morning of September 11 was public domain: anyone visiting the White House website 48 hours in advance of the attacks would have known the president's location accurately "to the square yard"... or certainly accurately enough to have taken him out, as well as his entire entourage, and the lives of 200 kids and teachers. The Secret Service knew that a terrorist attack was ongoing, and decided that the president could not have been a target? How and why? The presidential SS detail's mission is to "protect the life of the president at all times, and with their own if necessary".



    The day's events were drastic enough that the SS would have most likely assumed that there could be "other elements", in addition to hijacked airplanes, involved in the series of attacks, which were still ongoing during the time Bush was at the school. There were reports that a car bomb had exploded out side the State Department, and also that a van containing "tonnes of explosives" had been stopped by police in a NYC tunnel. and men "dressed in traditional Arab clothing" were detained. There was even an incident the previous night outside the compound where Bush was staying (the night of 9/10), which could have been a possible assassination attempt. (Please excuse the source website, but this did happen). The Secret Sevice allegedly foiled an assassination attempt only hours beforehand: they would been in a heightened state of alert even before the attacks started, and hence even more motivation to get Bush out of the danger zone ASAP, like instantly, rather than hang out for another 50 minutes!



    The reasonable assumption that additional terrorists who might have targeted the president (there are numerous of ways to have done that which do not involve hijacked airplanes), and could have been in the area, should have sent the SS into action instantly to protect Bush and get him out of the possible danger zone ASAP. A junior presidential SS agent, on hearing that a 2nd plane had hit the WTC echoed that same sentiment, and decided: "we're out of here".. but this course of action was overidden by his superiors. When Air Force One eventually took off, it was without a military escort to start. (AF1 does not usually have a fighter escort, but in a dire emergency situation like what happened on 9/11, one might have expected that additional protection would have been appropriate)....



    Contrast the president's "protection" with that of VP Cheney, who, as soon as it was apparent that an attack was ongoing, was literally "picked up and carried" by agents, who whisked him to a "secure, undisclosed location" where he remained for days afterwards.....
  • Reply 95 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post


    There was even an incident the previous night outside the compound where Bush was staying (the night of 9/10), which could have been a possible assassination attempt. (Please excuse the source website, but this did happen). The Secret Service allegedly foiled an assassination attempt only hours beforehand: they would been in a heightened state of alert even before the attacks started, and hence even more motivation to get Bush out of the danger zone ASAP, like instantly, rather than hang out for another 50 minutes!



    You don't have to worry about your source there (though it would be nice that news outlets did archive these on the interwebs), I distinctly remember hearing about the "surface to air missiles on the roof" mentioned before 9-11 on the evening news. It was (as I mentioned before) when I was out of work and was surfing the web and watching TV aimlessly (what a depressing time that was).



    I recall also the Republican Convention of 2000 here in Philadelphia. Overnight, the city became a police state. There were police, SWAT, FBI, SS, plainclothes sunglass wearing sentinels, helicopters, trucks, vans and black shiny SUVs and sedans everywhere. This isn't paranoia, they woke me up that morning with squawking walkie talkies, helicopters and all. There were over 50 police cars and other vehicles lined up down Pine Street. Ten blocks away from the convention center(?).



    And that brings me to another observation. After the first WTC bombing occurred (yes, on Clinton's watch), that was when I noticed the ratcheting of overwhelming police protection and other high security operations going out of control. It reached it's peak and hit home for me that morning on 2000.
  • Reply 96 of 152
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


    You don't have to worry about your source there (though it would be nice that news outlets did archive these on the interwebs)



    There is plenty of material on the possible attempt on the president's life on other websites. I only quoted the History Channel link for the benefit of those here who refuse to acknowledge material as being "reliable" unless presented by a corporate/mainstream source. In this case the source is jointly owned by Hearst, Disney and General Electric and as such, it would be unrealistic (in the utmost) to consider being an impartial and unbiased source in these circumstances. But as this material is repeated elsewhere with fair consistency, I opted for the link to the History Channel.... for obvious reasons.
  • Reply 97 of 152
    Teh Steve owns part of Disney...
  • Reply 98 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post


    There is plenty of material on the possible attempt on the president's life on other websites. I only quoted the History Channel link for the benefit of those here who refuse to acknowledge material as being "reliable" unless presented by a corporate/mainstream source. In this case the source is jointly owned by Hearst, Disney and General Electric and as such, it would be unrealistic (in the utmost) to consider being an impartial and unbiased source in these circumstances. But as this material is repeated elsewhere with fair consistency, I opted for the link to the History Channel.... for obvious reasons.



    Could you supply me with some credible links to this Hearst/Popular Mechanics "cabal" or whatever it is? I'm well aware of the Hearst stranglehold on the press in the 20's and 30's, but I haven't seen anything as far as it's control or sway with Popular Mechanics on any issue (including their 9-11 reports).
  • Reply 99 of 152
    Let's be thankful that PBS (with Frontline and Nova) and HBO for their broadcast of the French documentary "9|11", which I think is the only true story of 9|11 only because they were there from the very beginning. Uniquely their story as much as the New Yorkers and America's.
  • Reply 100 of 152
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post


    Bush's whereabouts on the morning of September 11 was public domain: anyone visiting the White House website 48 hours in advance of the attacks would have known the president's location accurately "to the square yard"... or certainly accurately enough to have taken him out, as well as his entire entourage, and the lives of 200 kids and teachers. The Secret Service knew that a terrorist attack was ongoing, and decided that the president could not have been a target? How and why? The presidential SS detail's mission is to "protect the life of the president at all times, and with their own if necessary".



    The day's events were drastic enough that the SS would have most likely assumed that there could be "other elements", in addition to hijacked airplanes, involved in the series of attacks, which were still ongoing during the time Bush was at the school. There were reports that a car bomb had exploded out side the State Department, and also that a van containing "tonnes of explosives" had been stopped by police in a NYC tunnel. and men "dressed in traditional Arab clothing" were detained. There was even an incident the previous night outside the compound where Bush was staying (the night of 9/10), which could have been a possible assassination attempt. (Please excuse the source website, but this did happen). The Secret Sevice allegedly foiled an assassination attempt only hours beforehand: they would been in a heightened state of alert even before the attacks started, and hence even more motivation to get Bush out of the danger zone ASAP, like instantly, rather than hang out for another 50 minutes!



    The reasonable assumption that additional terrorists who might have targeted the president (there are numerous of ways to have done that which do not involve hijacked airplanes), and could have been in the area, should have sent the SS into action instantly to protect Bush and get him out of the possible danger zone ASAP. A junior presidential SS agent, on hearing that a 2nd plane had hit the WTC echoed that same sentiment, and decided: "we're out of here".. but this course of action was overidden by his superiors. When Air Force One eventually took off, it was without a military escort to start. (AF1 does not usually have a fighter escort, but in a dire emergency situation like what happened on 9/11, one might have expected that additional protection would have been appropriate)....



    Contrast the president's "protection" with that of VP Cheney, who, as soon as it was apparent that an attack was ongoing, was literally "picked up and carried" by agents, who whisked him to a "secure, undisclosed location" where he remained for days afterwards.....



    ... let's just go ahead and make up stuff!



    Are you sure Bush was in that classroom? I mean I wasn't there, were you?



    And since Bush's whereabouts were precisely known, everyone knew where he was, it must be super easy to just walk right in wearing an IED, nah that won't work, you'd have to get one of the kid's to wear it!



    How about we fly something in there, nah that won't work, for obvious reasons anywhere Bush would be would have to be a no fly zone like the White House, you think?



    And were you in a plane chasing AF1 to confirm that it never had a fighter escort? Or that you have better surveillance and counter measurements than the U. S. Federal Government?
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