No need to refresh my memory - I have been there. Apple took the easy way out - and most people in the commission were realising it, but decided to give them some time to settle it. You can force the entire music industry to agree to 99 cents per song, but you cannot promote identical pricing across Europe? Big laughter. The pricing differences across Europe are below Apple's income from selling songs from the store. Apple is the reseller here and they have to do the job. The pricing from the record companies is not that much different - even in developing countries the price for a legal CD is consistently between 10 and 12 EUR. No need for all that jazz at all.
1. Clearly you don't know how the music business works. I work in the music business, so I know exactly how things run in it.
2. The idea of uniform pricing across the EU is great in theory, but as a business owner you know that in practice it doesn't work, due to a number of factors.
McDonalds sells burgers in every EU country, yet the prices are vastly different in each country: A cheeseburger in Germany is far more expensive that a cheeseburger in Portugal, even though it's the same cheeseburger. That's not McDonalds fault. Same situation with iTunes pricing.
Again, you're assuming that big bad Apple is the main reason why there is a SIM lock on the iPhone in Germany, which is IMO a lopsided view of the situation.
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??? Documenting something proves anything? Since when? Visual voicemail is an extremely simple feature - nicely implemented and a shame for the mobile carriers that Apple needed to invent it - but it does not require anything special at all. Safari is a major selling point, eliminating a separate iPod and not missing calls when listening to music is a major selling point, visual voice mail is a gimmick - serious people with positive credit like me answer the phone.
Do you know for sure that visual voicemail is so simple to implement? It could very well be, but the infrastructure to implement it might not be as simple to support as you assume. All the things you mention above (Safari, iPod implementation, etc.) indeed work without anything special. The point is that the deal between Apple and T-Mobile allowed Apple to control the hardware and software experience, and it's highly likely that Vodafone was unwilling to relinquish so much control over the relationship and give up a sizeable chunk of revenue at the same time. They now see how lucrative that deal is for T-Mobile, not just in units sold (NO other mobile phone manufacturer in Germany has sold 10,000 units of a phone in this price range in one day, EVER) but in the amount of Vodafone customers flocking to T-Mobile, and are panicking. It's history repeating itself.
The original article in the Suddeutsche Zeitung states that roughly 5000 Vodafone customers to date have bought iPhones for the purpose of jailbreaking to use on Vodafone's network. That's 5000 potential Qbowl (Vodafone's branded version of the Samsung F700, which was launched on the same day in Germany as the iPhone and is being touted by VF as an "iPhone-killer") customers lost. If I were the boss of Vodafone Germany, I'd be a little upset with that statistic, and would want to take action, hence the restraining order.
It has absolutely nothing to do with consumer choice, and everything to do with Vodafone trying to slow the tide of customer defections and lost revenue.
Quote:
I hope you have good medical insurance. Paranoia can be healed.
Being a smartass doesn't make you look any more intelligent.
You've never tried to get a mortgage in the UK then?
, really, I did not. But my GF was working for Dresdner Bank in London for 3 years and paid (well, she did not - the bank paid) 820 Pounds a week for a furnished appartment being about as big as my bathroom (OK, a rather big bath room, but still)... So, yes - I do believe you
Well if you read your software agreements in order to be able to post this in the first place, you must have been scamed
cos you don't own your software either!
We touched this point already (earlier in this thread). I might be guilty of being stubborn (normally not, but what the...), just, a product to me is a product - an iPhone is a toaster, a mixer or a cigar box. I have a 3,800 EUR cigar box, made from tropical wood - carved by hand, something in the area of 120 hours manual work, by a Balinese artist (great guy, btw)... I should return it, because it came without an EULA, don't you think. I mean, I cannot just buy something and use it as I like (I cannot put cigars into it, because I do not smoke), and, as this Locke guy said, I have no right to use what I paid for - I have to start smoking, but I do not want to. I feel so guilty right now. I also bought a Kandinsky painting (not an original, a silk screen, to be honest - still: 8,500 EUR) and I put it on my wall upside down, because it looks better (IMHO) - and now, there is this delicious phone... precious ... my precious. Put in wardrobe. No can do. Contract. Precious. T-Mobile. Mordor. Scamed. Scamed? Dictionary no find. Bad. Precious. Illiteracy. Precious.
leaves stage talking to a piece of aluminum (barbarian for aluminium), checking bank account (precious)
Sorry but you are wrong. I am well aware that there are more manufacturers then Apple and more operators. BUT - if you do want an iPhone you HAVE to obey by the monopolistic structure. You can not obtain the iPhone with an e-Plus, O2 or Vodafone subscription or on its own and put in the card that you as the consumer want to put in. The comparison with i-Drive/BMW is therefore without relevance.
It's completely relevant.
Monopolies have to do with markets, not products. Apple has no more of a monopoly on cell phones than BMW has on cars.
If you use your logic, then every single company in the world is a monopoly since they're the only ones who make a product with their brand name. That is obviously absurd since it makes the term 'monopoly' meaningless.
As for Apple's decision being 'anticonsumer', it might appear that way if you're unable to see past the surface layer. In reality, Apple's (or anyone else's) ability to define the terms under which they can sell their product is one of the core requirements for innovation to occur. While forcing every vendor to sell at the lowest common denominator might get you a bit of an advantage today, it lessens the chances for true innovation in the future. Why innovate if the courts are simply going to take away all your unique selling features?
It's no coincidence that Apple leads the computer industry in innovation (and has for many years) and has done so working out of the US.
1. Clearly you don't know how the music business works. I work in the music business, so I know exactly how things run in it.
2. The idea of uniform pricing across the EU is great in theory, but as a business owner you know that in practice it doesn't work, due to a number of factors.
McDonalds sells burgers in every EU country, yet the prices are vastly different in each country: A cheeseburger in Germany is far more expensive that a cheeseburger in Portugal, even though it's the same cheeseburger. That's not McDonalds fault. Same situation with iTunes pricing.
Again, you're assuming that big bad Apple is the main reason why there is a SIM lock on the iPhone in Germany, which is IMO a lopsided view of the situation.
Do you know for sure that visual voicemail is so simple to implement? It could very well be, but the infrastructure to implement it might not be as simple to support as you assume. All the things you mention above (Safari, iPod implementation, etc.) indeed work without anything special. The point is that the deal between Apple and T-Mobile allowed Apple to control the hardware and software experience, and it's highly likely that Vodafone was unwilling to relinquish so much control over the relationship and give up a sizeable chunk of revenue at the same time. They now see how lucrative that deal is for T-Mobile, not just in units sold (NO other mobile phone manufacturer in Germany has sold 10,000 units of a phone in this price range in one day, EVER) but in the amount of Vodafone customers flocking to T-Mobile, and are panicking. It's history repeating itself.
The original article in the Suddeutsche Zeitung states that roughly 5000 Vodafone customers to date have bought iPhones for the purpose of jailbreaking to use on Vodafone's network. That's 5000 potential Qbowl (Vodafone's branded version of the Samsung F700, which was launched on the same day in Germany as the iPhone and is being touted by VF as an "iPhone-killer") customers lost. If I were the boss of Vodafone Germany, I'd be a little upset with that statistic, and would want to take action, hence the restraining order.
It has absolutely nothing to do with consumer choice, and everything to do with Vodafone trying to slow the tide of customer defections and lost revenue.
Being a smartass doesn't make you look any more intelligent.
- Just to prove my complete ignorance... A single iTunes song on iTunes Portugal costs 99 Cents and an album 9.99 EUR - the vastly different prices in Germany are 99 Cents and 9.99 EUR by the way. I have participated in the production of 37 records since 1981 and still manage three bands (nothing big, more a hobby, as I have moved from that business) - sorry, I had no time to find out how the music business works - i will try hard
- just because the court in Hamburg did decide against your favourite brand, you should not refer to it as Cheeseburg, their cheese is actually even worse than their ham
- I do not need to assume anything. T-Mobile is offering every phone without contract for an (obviously) higher price. They forced Apple not to do what they have not done with AT&T? Apple was ruling the conditions and choosing the partner. No discussion needed - not even Apple is denying that.
- All current voice mail systems do have indices. Even with the free voice mail you can press the next button (normally 3 with T-Mobile) and you can skip a message. You can also - at any time go back to stored messages. All that "Visual Voicemail" adds, is a record (real or abstract database, most likely just a XML file) with plain text for navigation (time, caller ID, access code). There is no change to the voicemail itself, no different storage, no artificial intelligence, nothing. Just writing a record and displaying it to the user - and the interface to the existing voice mail system. The entire "magic" is writing out that record in a format that the iPhone will display nicely and can use to pull up contact information. As I said, very useful and nicely implemented - but just a case of Apple helping the phone industry to get on the horse. Everything needed has been there for ages.
- I did not say Vodafone is not trying to abuse the situation (this is more than obvious), just: Apple enabled them to do it for absolutely no reason, and so far Vodafone was playing it better than Apple - they get the applause. Nobody wanted the Q-Bowl or whatever it is called until now - it is ugly and it is not 10% of what the iPhone is, just now Vodafone is the company that sued Apple and Apple is that surprisingly uncool company trying to get people to join the ugly Magenta Telekom without any obvious reason or benefits.
- Listen: Being a smartass AND intelligent would be absolutely annoying for most of the population. I will just keep on failing at both
The iPhone is a regular GSM phone - it works on every single network in Europe. T
I think the argument from Apple has always been that although it has a GSM sim, it is not entirely a generic GSM phone due to the difference of the visual voice mail feature. This in itself requires the carrier to comply with specialized rules. It is a special phone and government should stay out of it unless there is an unfair monopoly, which there isn't in this case. If Vodafone doesn't like it, they can go build their own damn phone.
The phone is Apple's if they want to sell it to you through one carrier that is up to them, anyone else who says otherwise.... forget it.
The iPhone as far as I am aware is not capable of working correctly in Europe due to no Edge let alone the VV
This is sour grapes and pathetic, Vodafone should be fined.
Finally this rubbish about the US / European market being so different. it is not. Numerous phones are one network only for a period, no one complains, the only reason networks don't like it is because they are loosing customers. 18 month contracts are standard in the UK.
Why should Apple be forced to sell something that will not work as well. Answer they shouldn't. It is theirs. If you do not like it then get lost and buy something else end of.
it will take less than 6 months for the EU to rule, I am positive. Mandatory bundling of phones is already illegal in France, it is largely unpopular in Germany - these are the two biggest member states and politicians will want to score here. Apple should be clever and move at least a bit (e.g. sell an unlocked phone with a 200-300 EUR premium - it would still be in the price range of the N95 and people would have a choice) - before the EU commission makes them the second MS and digs into every single thing they are doing (bundling Safari and QuickTime with OS X, ruining IT consultants by being stable and maintenance free... etc.)
It is not in the price range of an N95. I can go to O2 right now and pick up an N95 for free with a £30 a month plan. The iPhone is £270. That is its biggest problem here. There is no way it can do well with this huge price premium.
It is not in the price range of an N95. I can go to O2 right now and pick up an N95 for free with a £30 a month plan. The iPhone is £270. That is its biggest problem here. There is no way it can do well with this huge price premium.
I beg to differ, you will see
As with all products it will come down in price (US price drop for example)
- Just to prove my complete ignorance... A single iTunes song on iTunes Portugal costs 99 Cents and an album 9.99 EUR - the vastly different prices in Germany are 99 Cents and 9.99 EUR by the way.
Point taken. However, I REALLY DO dislike smartasses The wonderful and sad thing about the Internet is the anonymity; People feel they have free reign to talk to complete strangers in ways they would never have the balls to do in person.
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I have participated in the production of 37 records since 1981 and still manage three bands (nothing big, more a hobby, as I have moved from that business) - sorry, I had no time to find out how the music business works - i will try hard
So? I deal with producers and managers every single day who haven't got a clue about the economics of the music business. The above statement means nothing.
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- just because the court in Hamburg did decide against your favourite brand, you should not refer to it as Cheeseburg, their cheese is actually even worse than their ham
I'm sorry, was that supposed to be humorous? ..umm..
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- I do not need to assume anything. T-Mobile is offering every phone without contract for an (obviously) higher price. They forced Apple not to do what they have not done with AT&T? Apple was ruling the conditions and choosing the partner. No discussion needed - not even Apple is denying that.
That's not the point. The point is why Vodafone felt it necessary to get a restraining order against a competitor for selling a product they themselves had first dibs on and refused. I'm sure if the iPhone was a flop for T-Mobile, they wouldn't have bothered going to a court in the first place.
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- I did not say Vodafone is not trying to abuse the situation (this is more than obvious), just: Apple enabled them to do it for absolutely no reason, and so far Vodafone was playing it better than Apple - they get the applause. Nobody wanted the Q-Bowl or whatever it is called until now - it is ugly and it is not 10% of what the iPhone is, just now Vodafone is the company that sued Apple and Apple is that surprisingly uncool company trying to get people to join the ugly Magenta Telekom without any obvious reason or benefits.
I guess it depends on your view of Apple, and yours is obviously not very favorable in this case. In Germany, the whole situation actually makes Vodafone look worse than Apple. The head of Vodafone said it himself in the interview: "we'd like to see the iPhone open to everyone". They should have thought about that when they turned it down in the first place. Again, 5000 Vodafone customers have bought iPhones so far; hardware revenue that Vodafone will never see a piece of, and will not be made up for through sales of the Qbowl. That has to be alarming for the Vodafone higher-ups.
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- Listen: Being a smartass AND intelligent would be absolutely annoying for most of the population. I will just keep on failing at both
..I know, it isn't Apple's responsibility to change the entire cell phone industry in the U.S. But how about this: In the U.S., the reason most people get locked into contracts is because the phone becomes subsidized, so the consumer's buying power goes up and they can get a fancier phone. Apple has arguably made matters WORSE now. They have introduced a new concept of
customer gets locked into contract
gets locked to a single provider (AT&T has stated they will not unlock iPhones as they will other handsets after contract termination)
and still have to pay full price for the hardware!
...
I agree with this. However, I also feel that the plan that Apple negotiated with AT&T to bring unlimited data in a mobile plan is unprecedented. I don't think any mobile telecom would provide unlimited data to any one at a reasonable cost, today . Apple struggled a bit more to do that with in the U.K. with O2 (they wanted to cut you off if you used it too much, at their discretion) and could not pull it off in Germany with T-Mobile the same way they did with AT&T (after 200MB/5GB/10GB, depending on plan, you get slowed down to 64(dn)/16(up) kbps).
That's the only reason I would accept the 2-year contract though, to get the darn unlimited plan . So, I think that the courts should also help the consumer in establishing reasonable data plans for mobile consumers.
The phone is Apple's if they want to sell it to you through one carrier that is up to them, anyone else who says otherwise.... forget it.
The iPhone as far as I am aware is not capable of working correctly in Europe due to no Edge let alone the VV
This is sour grapes and pathetic, Vodafone should be fined.
Finally this rubbish about the US / European market being so different. it is not. Numerous phones are one network only for a period, no one complains, the only reason networks don't like it is because they are loosing customers. 18 month contracts are standard in the UK.
Why should Apple be forced to sell something that will not work as well. Answer they shouldn't. It is theirs. If you do not like it then get lost and buy something else end of.
You seem to be missing a few points :
1./ The fact that several courts and regulators are looking into the issue of monopolistic behavior and forcing the device to be sold separately tells me something. There is no fire without smoke. The iPhone works correct throughout Europe. Otherwise jailbroken devices would not work either
2./ The device is a GSM device - else it would work on the Verizon or Sprint network - which it does not
I think the argument from Apple has always been that although it has a GSM sim, it is not entirely a generic GSM phone due to the difference of the visual voice mail feature. This in itself requires the carrier to comply with specialized rules. It is a special phone and government should stay out of it unless there is an unfair monopoly, which there isn't in this case. If Vodafone doesn't like it, they can go build their own damn phone.
m
Visual Voicemail is not a GSM feature. The device however is as GSM standard -or better said a TDMA device compliant to the GSM standard. Jailbroken phones underpin this further.
You furthermore have to get this "government" idea out of your head. In both France and Germany the pending issues are of judicial nature. There is no member of cabinet walking around saying 'The iPhone shall be free'.
No it's judges - you know those people upholding the law. Neutral. Not elected by governments either. Totally independent. This is not about what Vodafone wants or not - this is about how the laws are being respected. And if they are not respected then you have to enforce them. I am sure that this is the way how in works in SoCal as well. If cars are not EPA compliant they are not allowed on the road. So as much as the californian government or justice system is upholding your laws so is our system.
And guess what ? Even foreign companies have to accept this. No one is above the law - on either side of the Atlantic/Channel. If I were to move to California, I could not bring my reliable Diesel powered BMW with me, as it does not comply with the law. I even have to pass a new driving test. Now you expect me to respect this - right ? Good - we have mutual ground. Because then you will have to respect "my" laws as well.
According to german Mac site Macgadget, T-Mobile has apparently responded to Vodafone's restraining order with a suit of it's own, asking for damages to be paid by Vodafone if it is forced to stop selling the iPhone in Germany.
1./ The fact that several courts and regulators are looking into the issue of monopolistic behavior and forcing the device to be sold separately tells me something. There is no fire without smoke. The iPhone works correct throughout Europe. Otherwise jailbroken devices would not work either
2./ The device is a GSM device - else it would work on the Verizon or Sprint network - which it does not
Nope not missing them
2 is obvious and on a frequency that supports both US and EU. It is quad band I believe? So everywhere.
1 this is not monopolistic "The fact that several courts and regulators are looking into the issue of monopolistic behavior and forcing the device to be sold separately tells me something."Does it? nope sorry tells me nothing.
"The iPhone works correct throughout Europe. Otherwise jailbroken devices would not work either" yes you are probably completely correct. I am not sure if this is the case for the UK as 02 installed Edge so maybe it was working but not at maximum capability of the phone? I do not know so will defer to a more knowledgeable person on the matter.
I do know that it would not of worked correctly at a good speed without modifications though.
So my points stand really, Apple are not forcing you so Vodafone should shut up and stop being assholes. I take great pleasure in moving 17 people form Vodafone today onto 02 iPhone plans
No. We have every right to sound off if we're not happy with things, and we're going to carry on.
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The phone is Apple's if they want to sell it to you through one carrier that is up to them, anyone else who says otherwise.... forget it.
We are the consumers. We do not exist for the benefit of Apple (or anyone else for that matter) conversely Apple would not exist if it were not for us. We have a voice, and the right to use it and to vote with our wallets. Apple should ignore us at their peril.
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The iPhone as far as I am aware is not capable of working correctly in Europe due to no Edge let alone the VV
Rubbish. Orange for example already has an EDGE network. UK consumers would have had a better experience with the iPhone if Apple had chosen them over O2. But Apple just followed the money instead.
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Finally this rubbish about the US / European market being so different. it is not. Numerous phones are one network only for a period, no one complains, the only reason networks don't like it is because they are loosing customers. 18 month contracts are standard in the UK.
Yes it IS different, very different. And 18 month contracts are NOT standard in the UK. I live here, and I've never had to sign a contract greater than 12 months in my life. You are talking out of your backside!
Comments
No need to refresh my memory - I have been there. Apple took the easy way out - and most people in the commission were realising it, but decided to give them some time to settle it. You can force the entire music industry to agree to 99 cents per song, but you cannot promote identical pricing across Europe? Big laughter. The pricing differences across Europe are below Apple's income from selling songs from the store. Apple is the reseller here and they have to do the job. The pricing from the record companies is not that much different - even in developing countries the price for a legal CD is consistently between 10 and 12 EUR. No need for all that jazz at all.
1. Clearly you don't know how the music business works. I work in the music business, so I know exactly how things run in it.
2. The idea of uniform pricing across the EU is great in theory, but as a business owner you know that in practice it doesn't work, due to a number of factors.
McDonalds sells burgers in every EU country, yet the prices are vastly different in each country: A cheeseburger in Germany is far more expensive that a cheeseburger in Portugal, even though it's the same cheeseburger. That's not McDonalds fault. Same situation with iTunes pricing.
Again, you're assuming that big bad Apple is the main reason why there is a SIM lock on the iPhone in Germany, which is IMO a lopsided view of the situation.
??? Documenting something proves anything? Since when? Visual voicemail is an extremely simple feature - nicely implemented and a shame for the mobile carriers that Apple needed to invent it - but it does not require anything special at all. Safari is a major selling point, eliminating a separate iPod and not missing calls when listening to music is a major selling point, visual voice mail is a gimmick - serious people with positive credit like me answer the phone.
Do you know for sure that visual voicemail is so simple to implement? It could very well be, but the infrastructure to implement it might not be as simple to support as you assume. All the things you mention above (Safari, iPod implementation, etc.) indeed work without anything special. The point is that the deal between Apple and T-Mobile allowed Apple to control the hardware and software experience, and it's highly likely that Vodafone was unwilling to relinquish so much control over the relationship and give up a sizeable chunk of revenue at the same time. They now see how lucrative that deal is for T-Mobile, not just in units sold (NO other mobile phone manufacturer in Germany has sold 10,000 units of a phone in this price range in one day, EVER) but in the amount of Vodafone customers flocking to T-Mobile, and are panicking. It's history repeating itself.
The original article in the Suddeutsche Zeitung states that roughly 5000 Vodafone customers to date have bought iPhones for the purpose of jailbreaking to use on Vodafone's network. That's 5000 potential Qbowl (Vodafone's branded version of the Samsung F700, which was launched on the same day in Germany as the iPhone and is being touted by VF as an "iPhone-killer") customers lost. If I were the boss of Vodafone Germany, I'd be a little upset with that statistic, and would want to take action, hence the restraining order.
It has absolutely nothing to do with consumer choice, and everything to do with Vodafone trying to slow the tide of customer defections and lost revenue.
I hope you have good medical insurance. Paranoia can be healed.
Being a smartass doesn't make you look any more intelligent.
You've never tried to get a mortgage in the UK then?
Well if you read your software agreements in order to be able to post this in the first place, you must have been scamed
Well, you don't need to. Since you cannot read it before buying your software the EULA is invalid in germany.
Well if you read your software agreements in order to be able to post this in the first place, you must have been scamed
cos you don't own your software either!
We touched this point already (earlier in this thread). I might be guilty of being stubborn (normally not, but what the...), just, a product to me is a product - an iPhone is a toaster, a mixer or a cigar box. I have a 3,800 EUR cigar box, made from tropical wood - carved by hand, something in the area of 120 hours manual work, by a Balinese artist (great guy, btw)... I should return it, because it came without an EULA, don't you think. I mean, I cannot just buy something and use it as I like (I cannot put cigars into it, because I do not smoke), and, as this Locke guy said, I have no right to use what I paid for - I have to start smoking, but I do not want to. I feel so guilty right now. I also bought a Kandinsky painting (not an original, a silk screen, to be honest - still: 8,500 EUR) and I put it on my wall upside down, because it looks better (IMHO) - and now, there is this delicious phone... precious ... my precious. Put in wardrobe. No can do. Contract. Precious. T-Mobile. Mordor. Scamed. Scamed? Dictionary no find. Bad. Precious. Illiteracy. Precious.
leaves stage talking to a piece of aluminum (barbarian for aluminium), checking bank account (precious)
Sorry but you are wrong. I am well aware that there are more manufacturers then Apple and more operators. BUT - if you do want an iPhone you HAVE to obey by the monopolistic structure. You can not obtain the iPhone with an e-Plus, O2 or Vodafone subscription or on its own and put in the card that you as the consumer want to put in. The comparison with i-Drive/BMW is therefore without relevance.
It's completely relevant.
Monopolies have to do with markets, not products. Apple has no more of a monopoly on cell phones than BMW has on cars.
If you use your logic, then every single company in the world is a monopoly since they're the only ones who make a product with their brand name. That is obviously absurd since it makes the term 'monopoly' meaningless.
As for Apple's decision being 'anticonsumer', it might appear that way if you're unable to see past the surface layer. In reality, Apple's (or anyone else's) ability to define the terms under which they can sell their product is one of the core requirements for innovation to occur. While forcing every vendor to sell at the lowest common denominator might get you a bit of an advantage today, it lessens the chances for true innovation in the future. Why innovate if the courts are simply going to take away all your unique selling features?
It's no coincidence that Apple leads the computer industry in innovation (and has for many years) and has done so working out of the US.
It's no coincidence that Apple leads the computer industry in innovation (and has for many years) and has done so working out of the US.
Correct me, but isn't the iPhone actually build in china or taiwan?
1. Clearly you don't know how the music business works. I work in the music business, so I know exactly how things run in it.
2. The idea of uniform pricing across the EU is great in theory, but as a business owner you know that in practice it doesn't work, due to a number of factors.
McDonalds sells burgers in every EU country, yet the prices are vastly different in each country: A cheeseburger in Germany is far more expensive that a cheeseburger in Portugal, even though it's the same cheeseburger. That's not McDonalds fault. Same situation with iTunes pricing.
Again, you're assuming that big bad Apple is the main reason why there is a SIM lock on the iPhone in Germany, which is IMO a lopsided view of the situation.
Do you know for sure that visual voicemail is so simple to implement? It could very well be, but the infrastructure to implement it might not be as simple to support as you assume. All the things you mention above (Safari, iPod implementation, etc.) indeed work without anything special. The point is that the deal between Apple and T-Mobile allowed Apple to control the hardware and software experience, and it's highly likely that Vodafone was unwilling to relinquish so much control over the relationship and give up a sizeable chunk of revenue at the same time. They now see how lucrative that deal is for T-Mobile, not just in units sold (NO other mobile phone manufacturer in Germany has sold 10,000 units of a phone in this price range in one day, EVER) but in the amount of Vodafone customers flocking to T-Mobile, and are panicking. It's history repeating itself.
The original article in the Suddeutsche Zeitung states that roughly 5000 Vodafone customers to date have bought iPhones for the purpose of jailbreaking to use on Vodafone's network. That's 5000 potential Qbowl (Vodafone's branded version of the Samsung F700, which was launched on the same day in Germany as the iPhone and is being touted by VF as an "iPhone-killer") customers lost. If I were the boss of Vodafone Germany, I'd be a little upset with that statistic, and would want to take action, hence the restraining order.
It has absolutely nothing to do with consumer choice, and everything to do with Vodafone trying to slow the tide of customer defections and lost revenue.
Being a smartass doesn't make you look any more intelligent.
- Just to prove my complete ignorance... A single iTunes song on iTunes Portugal costs 99 Cents and an album 9.99 EUR - the vastly different prices in Germany are 99 Cents and 9.99 EUR by the way. I have participated in the production of 37 records since 1981 and still manage three bands (nothing big, more a hobby, as I have moved from that business) - sorry, I had no time to find out how the music business works - i will try hard
- just because the court in Hamburg did decide against your favourite brand, you should not refer to it as Cheeseburg, their cheese is actually even worse than their ham
- I do not need to assume anything. T-Mobile is offering every phone without contract for an (obviously) higher price. They forced Apple not to do what they have not done with AT&T? Apple was ruling the conditions and choosing the partner. No discussion needed - not even Apple is denying that.
- All current voice mail systems do have indices. Even with the free voice mail you can press the next button (normally 3 with T-Mobile) and you can skip a message. You can also - at any time go back to stored messages. All that "Visual Voicemail" adds, is a record (real or abstract database, most likely just a XML file) with plain text for navigation (time, caller ID, access code). There is no change to the voicemail itself, no different storage, no artificial intelligence, nothing. Just writing a record and displaying it to the user - and the interface to the existing voice mail system. The entire "magic" is writing out that record in a format that the iPhone will display nicely and can use to pull up contact information. As I said, very useful and nicely implemented - but just a case of Apple helping the phone industry to get on the horse. Everything needed has been there for ages.
- I did not say Vodafone is not trying to abuse the situation (this is more than obvious), just: Apple enabled them to do it for absolutely no reason, and so far Vodafone was playing it better than Apple - they get the applause. Nobody wanted the Q-Bowl or whatever it is called until now - it is ugly and it is not 10% of what the iPhone is, just now Vodafone is the company that sued Apple and Apple is that surprisingly uncool company trying to get people to join the ugly Magenta Telekom without any obvious reason or benefits.
- Listen: Being a smartass AND intelligent would be absolutely annoying for most of the population. I will just keep on failing at both
Still, some people say that it is especially blind when the Landgericht Hamburg is involved...
(now I just hope nobody wants a translation... sneak out)
The iPhone is a regular GSM phone - it works on every single network in Europe. T
I think the argument from Apple has always been that although it has a GSM sim, it is not entirely a generic GSM phone due to the difference of the visual voice mail feature. This in itself requires the carrier to comply with specialized rules. It is a special phone and government should stay out of it unless there is an unfair monopoly, which there isn't in this case. If Vodafone doesn't like it, they can go build their own damn phone.
m
Europe is just/if not more corrupt than the US.
The phone is Apple's if they want to sell it to you through one carrier that is up to them, anyone else who says otherwise.... forget it.
The iPhone as far as I am aware is not capable of working correctly in Europe due to no Edge let alone the VV
This is sour grapes and pathetic, Vodafone should be fined.
Finally this rubbish about the US / European market being so different. it is not. Numerous phones are one network only for a period, no one complains, the only reason networks don't like it is because they are loosing customers. 18 month contracts are standard in the UK.
Why should Apple be forced to sell something that will not work as well. Answer they shouldn't. It is theirs. If you do not like it then get lost and buy something else end of.
it will take less than 6 months for the EU to rule, I am positive. Mandatory bundling of phones is already illegal in France, it is largely unpopular in Germany - these are the two biggest member states and politicians will want to score here. Apple should be clever and move at least a bit (e.g. sell an unlocked phone with a 200-300 EUR premium - it would still be in the price range of the N95 and people would have a choice) - before the EU commission makes them the second MS and digs into every single thing they are doing (bundling Safari and QuickTime with OS X, ruining IT consultants by being stable and maintenance free... etc.)
It is not in the price range of an N95. I can go to O2 right now and pick up an N95 for free with a £30 a month plan. The iPhone is £270. That is its biggest problem here. There is no way it can do well with this huge price premium.
It is not in the price range of an N95. I can go to O2 right now and pick up an N95 for free with a £30 a month plan. The iPhone is £270. That is its biggest problem here. There is no way it can do well with this huge price premium.
I beg to differ, you will see
As with all products it will come down in price (US price drop for example)
- Just to prove my complete ignorance... A single iTunes song on iTunes Portugal costs 99 Cents and an album 9.99 EUR - the vastly different prices in Germany are 99 Cents and 9.99 EUR by the way.
Point taken. However, I REALLY DO dislike smartasses
I have participated in the production of 37 records since 1981 and still manage three bands (nothing big, more a hobby, as I have moved from that business) - sorry, I had no time to find out how the music business works - i will try hard
So? I deal with producers and managers every single day who haven't got a clue about the economics of the music business. The above statement means nothing.
- just because the court in Hamburg did decide against your favourite brand, you should not refer to it as Cheeseburg, their cheese is actually even worse than their ham
I'm sorry, was that supposed to be humorous?
- I do not need to assume anything. T-Mobile is offering every phone without contract for an (obviously) higher price. They forced Apple not to do what they have not done with AT&T? Apple was ruling the conditions and choosing the partner. No discussion needed - not even Apple is denying that.
That's not the point. The point is why Vodafone felt it necessary to get a restraining order against a competitor for selling a product they themselves had first dibs on and refused. I'm sure if the iPhone was a flop for T-Mobile, they wouldn't have bothered going to a court in the first place.
- I did not say Vodafone is not trying to abuse the situation (this is more than obvious), just: Apple enabled them to do it for absolutely no reason, and so far Vodafone was playing it better than Apple - they get the applause. Nobody wanted the Q-Bowl or whatever it is called until now - it is ugly and it is not 10% of what the iPhone is, just now Vodafone is the company that sued Apple and Apple is that surprisingly uncool company trying to get people to join the ugly Magenta Telekom without any obvious reason or benefits.
I guess it depends on your view of Apple, and yours is obviously not very favorable in this case. In Germany, the whole situation actually makes Vodafone look worse than Apple. The head of Vodafone said it himself in the interview: "we'd like to see the iPhone open to everyone". They should have thought about that when they turned it down in the first place.
- Listen: Being a smartass AND intelligent would be absolutely annoying for most of the population. I will just keep on failing at both
Everyone's a badass on the internet...
..I know, it isn't Apple's responsibility to change the entire cell phone industry in the U.S. But how about this: In the U.S., the reason most people get locked into contracts is because the phone becomes subsidized, so the consumer's buying power goes up and they can get a fancier phone. Apple has arguably made matters WORSE now. They have introduced a new concept of
- customer gets locked into contract
- gets locked to a single provider (AT&T has stated they will not unlock iPhones as they will other handsets after contract termination)
- and still have to pay full price for the hardware!
...I agree with this. However, I also feel that the plan that Apple negotiated with AT&T to bring unlimited data in a mobile plan is unprecedented. I don't think any mobile telecom would provide unlimited data to any one at a reasonable cost, today
That's the only reason I would accept the 2-year contract though, to get the darn unlimited plan
Correct me, but isn't the iPhone actually build in china or taiwan?
Who cares where it was built? It was designed by Apple.
The phone is Apple's if they want to sell it to you through one carrier that is up to them, anyone else who says otherwise.... forget it.
The iPhone as far as I am aware is not capable of working correctly in Europe due to no Edge let alone the VV
This is sour grapes and pathetic, Vodafone should be fined.
Finally this rubbish about the US / European market being so different. it is not. Numerous phones are one network only for a period, no one complains, the only reason networks don't like it is because they are loosing customers. 18 month contracts are standard in the UK.
Why should Apple be forced to sell something that will not work as well. Answer they shouldn't. It is theirs. If you do not like it then get lost and buy something else end of.
You seem to be missing a few points :
1./ The fact that several courts and regulators are looking into the issue of monopolistic behavior and forcing the device to be sold separately tells me something. There is no fire without smoke. The iPhone works correct throughout Europe. Otherwise jailbroken devices would not work either
2./ The device is a GSM device - else it would work on the Verizon or Sprint network - which it does not
I think the argument from Apple has always been that although it has a GSM sim, it is not entirely a generic GSM phone due to the difference of the visual voice mail feature. This in itself requires the carrier to comply with specialized rules. It is a special phone and government should stay out of it unless there is an unfair monopoly, which there isn't in this case. If Vodafone doesn't like it, they can go build their own damn phone.
m
Visual Voicemail is not a GSM feature. The device however is as GSM standard -or better said a TDMA device compliant to the GSM standard. Jailbroken phones underpin this further.
You furthermore have to get this "government" idea out of your head. In both France and Germany the pending issues are of judicial nature. There is no member of cabinet walking around saying 'The iPhone shall be free'.
No it's judges - you know those people upholding the law. Neutral. Not elected by governments either. Totally independent. This is not about what Vodafone wants or not - this is about how the laws are being respected. And if they are not respected then you have to enforce them. I am sure that this is the way how in works in SoCal as well. If cars are not EPA compliant they are not allowed on the road. So as much as the californian government or justice system is upholding your laws so is our system.
And guess what ? Even foreign companies have to accept this. No one is above the law - on either side of the Atlantic/Channel. If I were to move to California, I could not bring my reliable Diesel powered BMW with me, as it does not comply with the law. I even have to pass a new driving test. Now you expect me to respect this - right ? Good - we have mutual ground. Because then you will have to respect "my" laws as well.
Else we have anarchy
http://www.macgadget.de
You seem to be missing a few points :
1./ The fact that several courts and regulators are looking into the issue of monopolistic behavior and forcing the device to be sold separately tells me something. There is no fire without smoke. The iPhone works correct throughout Europe. Otherwise jailbroken devices would not work either
2./ The device is a GSM device - else it would work on the Verizon or Sprint network - which it does not
Nope not missing them
2 is obvious and on a frequency that supports both US and EU. It is quad band I believe? So everywhere.
1 this is not monopolistic "The fact that several courts and regulators are looking into the issue of monopolistic behavior and forcing the device to be sold separately tells me something."Does it? nope sorry tells me nothing.
"The iPhone works correct throughout Europe. Otherwise jailbroken devices would not work either" yes you are probably completely correct. I am not sure if this is the case for the UK as 02 installed Edge so maybe it was working but not at maximum capability of the phone? I do not know so will defer to a more knowledgeable person on the matter.
I do know that it would not of worked correctly at a good speed without modifications though.
So my points stand really, Apple are not forcing you so Vodafone should shut up and stop being assholes. I take great pleasure in moving 17 people form Vodafone today onto 02 iPhone plans
People please stop with this European bullshit.
No. We have every right to sound off if we're not happy with things, and we're going to carry on.
The phone is Apple's if they want to sell it to you through one carrier that is up to them, anyone else who says otherwise.... forget it.
We are the consumers. We do not exist for the benefit of Apple (or anyone else for that matter) conversely Apple would not exist if it were not for us. We have a voice, and the right to use it and to vote with our wallets. Apple should ignore us at their peril.
The iPhone as far as I am aware is not capable of working correctly in Europe due to no Edge let alone the VV
Rubbish. Orange for example already has an EDGE network. UK consumers would have had a better experience with the iPhone if Apple had chosen them over O2. But Apple just followed the money instead.
Finally this rubbish about the US / European market being so different. it is not. Numerous phones are one network only for a period, no one complains, the only reason networks don't like it is because they are loosing customers. 18 month contracts are standard in the UK.
Yes it IS different, very different. And 18 month contracts are NOT standard in the UK. I live here, and I've never had to sign a contract greater than 12 months in my life. You are talking out of your backside!