No one's saying you're making up a category. The implication is that you're ignoring the existance of a category.
That's always possible. But, I'm looking at the physical spec that wizard69 set up. As I said earlier, what do you think a full tablet size iTouch would go for? Because, that's what he's asking, with his thin as an iPhone spec.
Quote:
Sure. But that has nothing to do with price point or who the market is. Or what anyone is talking about.
Of course it is. Look at the ultralight we think is coming out. That will be a premium machine as well.
This is what Apple does. They won't come out with a product that's one of the cheapest in the category, but one of the more expensive. That's just the way they go. And that means that it fits into a certain market as well. That market is either a few people who can afford one, or people who will use them for work.
Quote:
Mel, if Steve Jobs was an critical audio engineer we'd never have iPods, which makes them boatloads of money. And if you've "never bought an iPod, or downloaded compressed music, except to see what it sounded like (other than my own testing", regardless of your audio background, you're a textbook example of someone who does not have their finger on the pulse of the people who do buy mp3 players. And they're the same people who buy low and mid range computers that won't run professional apps well enough to satisfy a professional. And they buy tons of them. (PS, I'm an audio professional and love mp3 players for what they are. I don't use them to chase the perfect sound. I have other things for that. It's not their purpose.)
I'm not the one who said that the iPods weren't a technology showoff because of the compressed sound. you've got the wrong person. That was either kolchak, or wizard69, I believe. I said that they were a technology showoff, and one of the others mentioned the "poor" sound.
I see all kinds of devices on the subway, open and used, from Blueberries and Nokias to MacBookPros. If you're as in touch with these folks as you are with mp3 player users you should probably not continue making such sweeping statements based on your personal feelings.
Respectfully,
TB[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do as well. But, what you seem to have missed in the conversation is that this tablet is being compared to these small devices that are carried everywhere. Do you really think that people will carry a full size 11", or 13" tablet everywhere they go? Also Wizard69's contention is that one of these will cost $400! Not even remotely possible. But it's also why he thinks it will be carried everywhere. Unless you think that the iPhone/iTouch should cost $99 today, you must admit that this tablet won't be a purchase made the way an iTouch is made.
Then you don't see the realities of the market, or of Apple. A mini tablet will go for less perhaps, but even these little UMPC's are going over $1,000 in some cases, and even they are accused of being too slow, and too small.
All one ahs ot do is look at the cost of a iPhone or a Touch and see that it is extremely possible to get below the sub $1000 dollar mark. Well below that and have a very useful tablet type portable.
Quote:
When you say "we" you mean "you".
Nope I mean everybody with a reasonable grasp of the engineering possibilities and a desire for as much power as possible in their pocket. There is no "YOU" about it as it is some that is expressed continuously on the various forums.
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There will not be any tablet for anywhere close to that. I would hope that people would understand that.
What we fail to understand is that the evidence is out there in plain sight so how you can make a statement like the above is truly difficult to understand.
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I've been calling for a machine somewhat larger than the iPhone/iTouch. But, some people think that's too big.
Well I'm not one of them as I can see demand for a whole family of such devices. From my standpoint though I don't think they will be anywhere near as expensive as you think. The trick is to give up a lot of the devices and thus power requirements for things you really don't need.
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But, a tablet is much larger.
NO the current Touch and IPhone are tablets, there is really not a physical boundary here at all. I believe the biggest key to success is a common OS. Or maybe better a baseline OS that all devices can support. At that point the device can be sized for specific markets.
Quote:
I can't even imagine how you think it could be produced for $400, when the iPhone already costs that, and even the 16 GB iTouch costs that. Why don't you detail such a device, and we'll figure out what it WILL cost?
Take the guts out of an iPhone and spread them across a single PC board to start with. Make that single PC board no bigger than the display module and you will be all set. To address performance you could also scale the processor clock rate a bit. To address price you might get rid of some of the multilevel chips in the unit in exchange for more traditional approaches to surface mount. In any event $400 laptops exist today and frankly you would not need to implement a lot of what a standard laptop implements.
Quote:
I find it to be interesting that while tablets are being produced for that purpose, and for the purpose of replacing laptops as well, you can say that they are not being produced for that purpose.
I see a lot of special purpose tablets around town but I do not see much of any thing available to the consumer. The closest thing in the consumer space is Apple's Touch and iPhone.
Quote:
I'm not saying that they can't be produced for other, less serious purposes, but there is no market at all worth talking about right now. Companies have to look at larger groups of users, and they are the ones who need their machines for work or school for the most part.
I see it as a market that is rip for innovation and Apple as having the only workable solution at the moment.
Quote:
iPod? You are now comparing a tablet computer to an iPod? Well then, get an iPod. this isn't an iPod. It's a computer.
Are you trying to say that the Touch isn't a computer? Or for that matter an iPhone? It is most certainly a computer even if Apple kinda missed the marketing mark here.
I say Apple has missed the mark because even by their own admission they are finding that a large percentage of iPhone users are installing third party apps. I don't think it was in Apples plans for this to happen so quickly but it does indicate a pretty strong demand for tablet computing. At least at the small scale it does.
Quote:
And, yes, people are getting portables to replace their desktops. You can read all about it anywhere you look, even in AI.
I don't deny this so much as point out that they don't have a better alternative! An iPhone 2, properly done, could drastically reduce demand for portables as would a slightly larger tablet.
Quote:
That's one of the points I'm making here. Jobs will not produce a machine that costs less than the lifestyle he wants it to exude. Why do you think the cheapest portable costs at least $1,100? They could make them for less, but they don't want to.
iPhone <<<<
Iphone pretty much proves that Jobs can be extremely aggressive in the market if he wants to be.
Quote:
To meet the specs you want, the cost will be high. Settle for lessor specs, such as a much thicker, heavier machine, no SSD, and you can have a lower price. But, it will still be way over $1,000.
Obviously you don't know or understand. The components that we are talking about are dirt cheap and the assembly is dirt cheap. There is no reason such a device can't be delivered for less than $1000, less than $750 and most likely less that $500.
Quote:
The Eee PC is a cheap piece of crap. Is that what you want?
Have you ever seen one? Yeah that is simply turning the tables a bit but if you look at things with an objective mind you will find that the Eee PC is being well accepted in the market place. More so it has a lot of stuff that this tablet simply doesn't need. Everything from the extra case components to the USB ports.
Quote:
Don't talk about a post filled with crap, unless you're reading your own. Is this a discussion or are you tripping? Should I take the rest seriously now?
You have posted nothing to indicate that you have a grip on what is being discussed. I post references to things like Eee PC so that one can see what is possible in a modern PC board and you dismiss it completely. It is a shame because, while the Eee PC isn't what I'm looking for, it does indicate what one can squeeze into a small PC board using PC components. Take the same manufacturing methods and embedded components common in the ARM world and you have a very inexpensive but powerful PC board to drive a tablet with.
Quote:
Well, I guess you aren't serious any more, you've gone off the deep end. If you don't want to take ME seriously, then just don't respond, but don't make stupid accusations.
Well you are the one that offended the public by trying to imply if they don't have hardware that meets your requirements they can't be doing serious work. Think about it a bit. Just because something isn't serious to you doesn't also imply that everybody else has the same opinion of that work.
Quote:
Perhaps you are the troll who has lost his way. Times change, what was serious then, is less so now.
That is beyond a silly statement.
[quote]
And both are considered to be expensive, even now. The iPhone was considered to be so overpriced, that Jobs for once was forced to drastically lower its price. I'd be willing to bet that the iTouch was priced the same as the old iPhone prices, but were released at the present ones once the iPhone price was dropped.
[quote]
How do you know this? IPHones pricing could simply have been a method of controlling demand at release. In which case things worked rather well.
I find it funny though that you claim that he iphone and Touch are over priced but then at the same time claim that a tablet PC would cost more than a thousand dollars. You love to have it both ways.
[quote]
It's pretty obvious. If this isn't going to be an expensive, serious work machine, then it will be an e-mail machine that will be of lessor capability. Your "fun" machine.
[quote]
Here you go again trying to stir up the public by insulting them with your idea of a serious machine. I Suppose the system administrator that gets one of his servers back online with an iPhone isn't doing serious work in your mind. Or maybe the contractor that keeps in contact with his field people and uses the iPhone to check prices and arrange deliveries isn't doing serious work either. Maybe the mother that keeps track of her kids schedules at school and manges a bit of the household isn't doing serious work in you mind either. Like wise maybe the stripper that manages her schedule on a TOUCH and maybe even haves a few carefully selected tunes there isn't using the machine seriously.
See it just sounds like you like to put people down that have a different take on life than you do. Maybe you find some to the activities above distasteful or out of your league in some way so you discount then as in any way being serious to the person involved.
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You want me to come up with sales figures for machines that YOU say aren't selling well? And then you assume that the Eee PC IS selling well?
Eee PC is sell well in initial product movement. That is generally accepted.
Quote:
Why don't you produce figures for both the ultra's, AND the Eee? It's your contention, not mine.
I'm sure that I cna just walk up to an ASUS exec. and pry that information out of him freely.
[quote]
But, don't forget that an Ultra is also one of the most wanted devices from Apple on this board, and has been for quite a while.
[quote]
Hey it isn't something I'm looking for. I have no need for a miniature laptop emulator. Now a micro tablet is something totally different.
It is obvious that is some ways we agree but more so we sharply disagree. You seem to see the world through the lens of a specific business type where rather I'd like to think I'm seeing a demand more consumer centric. The difference in my mind is the greater chance for a device to cross over into the business world from the consumer world. The iPhone pretty much has proven this point. It certainly doesn't have the approach to business that a BlackBerry has but that hasn't caused businesses and business people to discount its usefulness or keep them from using it as a business appliance.
Not really. i'm looking at the way tablets are being marketed, and to whom. i'm not making up a category. That's being done by others here.
The point is that Apple can create its own marketing program to target whomever it likes. Apple doesn't have to chase any one market segment.
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If it's being said that Apple will market to other categories, then that's just a guess.
Well yes and no. The issue is that they need to get reasonable sales for x device. A good argument can be made that marketing to traditional markets for these devices won't do.
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Actually, since there is no product from Apple, and we have no idea at all that there ever will be, it's all a dream.
Yep. The only difference is that some dreams have a higher percentage chance of coming true at MWSF. Thus there would be a lot less negativity if this thread was about Penryn based hardware.
Quote:
Oh please!
Every product line Apple has ever come out with has been a platforn for Apple's technologies. That includes the iPod.
Actually I have to disagree here. Mostly because Steve Jobs himself admitted a few years back that they almost missed the MP3 player craze. The only thing that iPod had going for it at the time was that iTunes was a reasonably good start on a MP3 management system. Even Itunes took some time becoming significant. IPod is probably the best example of Apple reacting to something in the market place they didn't start.
Quote:
If you are talking about tablets that are a bit bigger than the iPhone/iTouch, then if you read back, you will see that it's a product that I have called for, and described. No argument there.
But if you are talking about the 11' to 13' tablet others here are arguing for, then no to both. They won't cost $600, and they won't be carried around on the subway here in good old New York.
I suspect that the first markets for a touch based device that is larger than pocket size will be found in something like a 8x4.5 enclosure. Almost the size of my Guitar Center catalog sitting on my desk. A size that I see as practical for hand held usage. Touch based systems larger than this I see as serving a different market.
There is another outlandish possibility too. That would be Apple entering the television market with a unit with a touch screen. Apple TV could be built right into an HD display and add TIVO like capability could be a very interesting product. That would put touch technology into a larger display, possibly for counter top usage. Problem is this won't likely extend to really large screen TV's.
i think if apple had a home server then your household music docs, photo's etc would then be accessable to any computer including this ultraportable, then you would need to have such a large hd and 64 would work, it would work for me, i need access and upload-ability. unless apple will expand mac service to provide this. hey maybe with a 64gb limit they would streamline what is on computer. my macbook probably had close to this at the start. they then need to streamline or have online access to most used apps. the other thing this could have is a memory, express slot to add more memory
APPLE MAKE A HOME SERVER....PLEASE
(i know you could set one up yourself, but this should be a standalone product simple easy first time mac user easy and user friendly)
Every product line Apple has ever come out with has been a platforn for Apple's technologies.
How so? I look at all the current Macs from the Mini up to the Mac Pro and I don't see any proprietary Apple technology anywhere. There may be some clever packaging like the quick access door on the Mac Pro, but there's nothing in any machine that isn't available on some of their competitors' systems.
Comments
No one's saying you're making up a category. The implication is that you're ignoring the existance of a category.
That's always possible. But, I'm looking at the physical spec that wizard69 set up. As I said earlier, what do you think a full tablet size iTouch would go for? Because, that's what he's asking, with his thin as an iPhone spec.
Sure. But that has nothing to do with price point or who the market is. Or what anyone is talking about.
Of course it is. Look at the ultralight we think is coming out. That will be a premium machine as well.
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/15687/
This is what Apple does. They won't come out with a product that's one of the cheapest in the category, but one of the more expensive. That's just the way they go. And that means that it fits into a certain market as well. That market is either a few people who can afford one, or people who will use them for work.
Mel, if Steve Jobs was an critical audio engineer we'd never have iPods, which makes them boatloads of money. And if you've "never bought an iPod, or downloaded compressed music, except to see what it sounded like (other than my own testing", regardless of your audio background, you're a textbook example of someone who does not have their finger on the pulse of the people who do buy mp3 players. And they're the same people who buy low and mid range computers that won't run professional apps well enough to satisfy a professional. And they buy tons of them. (PS, I'm an audio professional and love mp3 players for what they are. I don't use them to chase the perfect sound. I have other things for that. It's not their purpose.)
I'm not the one who said that the iPods weren't a technology showoff because of the compressed sound. you've got the wrong person. That was either kolchak, or wizard69, I believe. I said that they were a technology showoff, and one of the others mentioned the "poor" sound.
I see all kinds of devices on the subway, open and used, from Blueberries and Nokias to MacBookPros. If you're as in touch with these folks as you are with mp3 player users you should probably not continue making such sweeping statements based on your personal feelings.
Respectfully,
TB[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do as well. But, what you seem to have missed in the conversation is that this tablet is being compared to these small devices that are carried everywhere. Do you really think that people will carry a full size 11", or 13" tablet everywhere they go? Also Wizard69's contention is that one of these will cost $400! Not even remotely possible. But it's also why he thinks it will be carried everywhere. Unless you think that the iPhone/iTouch should cost $99 today, you must admit that this tablet won't be a purchase made the way an iTouch is made.
Then you don't see the realities of the market, or of Apple. A mini tablet will go for less perhaps, but even these little UMPC's are going over $1,000 in some cases, and even they are accused of being too slow, and too small.
All one ahs ot do is look at the cost of a iPhone or a Touch and see that it is extremely possible to get below the sub $1000 dollar mark. Well below that and have a very useful tablet type portable.
When you say "we" you mean "you".
Nope I mean everybody with a reasonable grasp of the engineering possibilities and a desire for as much power as possible in their pocket. There is no "YOU" about it as it is some that is expressed continuously on the various forums.
There will not be any tablet for anywhere close to that. I would hope that people would understand that.
What we fail to understand is that the evidence is out there in plain sight so how you can make a statement like the above is truly difficult to understand.
I've been calling for a machine somewhat larger than the iPhone/iTouch. But, some people think that's too big.
Well I'm not one of them as I can see demand for a whole family of such devices. From my standpoint though I don't think they will be anywhere near as expensive as you think. The trick is to give up a lot of the devices and thus power requirements for things you really don't need.
But, a tablet is much larger.
NO the current Touch and IPhone are tablets, there is really not a physical boundary here at all. I believe the biggest key to success is a common OS. Or maybe better a baseline OS that all devices can support. At that point the device can be sized for specific markets.
I can't even imagine how you think it could be produced for $400, when the iPhone already costs that, and even the 16 GB iTouch costs that. Why don't you detail such a device, and we'll figure out what it WILL cost?
Take the guts out of an iPhone and spread them across a single PC board to start with. Make that single PC board no bigger than the display module and you will be all set. To address performance you could also scale the processor clock rate a bit. To address price you might get rid of some of the multilevel chips in the unit in exchange for more traditional approaches to surface mount. In any event $400 laptops exist today and frankly you would not need to implement a lot of what a standard laptop implements.
I find it to be interesting that while tablets are being produced for that purpose, and for the purpose of replacing laptops as well, you can say that they are not being produced for that purpose.
I see a lot of special purpose tablets around town but I do not see much of any thing available to the consumer. The closest thing in the consumer space is Apple's Touch and iPhone.
I'm not saying that they can't be produced for other, less serious purposes, but there is no market at all worth talking about right now. Companies have to look at larger groups of users, and they are the ones who need their machines for work or school for the most part.
I see it as a market that is rip for innovation and Apple as having the only workable solution at the moment.
iPod? You are now comparing a tablet computer to an iPod? Well then, get an iPod. this isn't an iPod. It's a computer.
Are you trying to say that the Touch isn't a computer? Or for that matter an iPhone? It is most certainly a computer even if Apple kinda missed the marketing mark here.
I say Apple has missed the mark because even by their own admission they are finding that a large percentage of iPhone users are installing third party apps. I don't think it was in Apples plans for this to happen so quickly but it does indicate a pretty strong demand for tablet computing. At least at the small scale it does.
And, yes, people are getting portables to replace their desktops. You can read all about it anywhere you look, even in AI.
I don't deny this so much as point out that they don't have a better alternative! An iPhone 2, properly done, could drastically reduce demand for portables as would a slightly larger tablet.
That's one of the points I'm making here. Jobs will not produce a machine that costs less than the lifestyle he wants it to exude. Why do you think the cheapest portable costs at least $1,100? They could make them for less, but they don't want to.
iPhone <<<<
Iphone pretty much proves that Jobs can be extremely aggressive in the market if he wants to be.
To meet the specs you want, the cost will be high. Settle for lessor specs, such as a much thicker, heavier machine, no SSD, and you can have a lower price. But, it will still be way over $1,000.
Obviously you don't know or understand. The components that we are talking about are dirt cheap and the assembly is dirt cheap. There is no reason such a device can't be delivered for less than $1000, less than $750 and most likely less that $500.
The Eee PC is a cheap piece of crap. Is that what you want?
Have you ever seen one? Yeah that is simply turning the tables a bit but if you look at things with an objective mind you will find that the Eee PC is being well accepted in the market place. More so it has a lot of stuff that this tablet simply doesn't need. Everything from the extra case components to the USB ports.
Don't talk about a post filled with crap, unless you're reading your own. Is this a discussion or are you tripping? Should I take the rest seriously now?
You have posted nothing to indicate that you have a grip on what is being discussed. I post references to things like Eee PC so that one can see what is possible in a modern PC board and you dismiss it completely. It is a shame because, while the Eee PC isn't what I'm looking for, it does indicate what one can squeeze into a small PC board using PC components. Take the same manufacturing methods and embedded components common in the ARM world and you have a very inexpensive but powerful PC board to drive a tablet with.
Well, I guess you aren't serious any more, you've gone off the deep end. If you don't want to take ME seriously, then just don't respond, but don't make stupid accusations.
Well you are the one that offended the public by trying to imply if they don't have hardware that meets your requirements they can't be doing serious work. Think about it a bit. Just because something isn't serious to you doesn't also imply that everybody else has the same opinion of that work.
Perhaps you are the troll who has lost his way. Times change, what was serious then, is less so now.
That is beyond a silly statement.
[quote]
And both are considered to be expensive, even now. The iPhone was considered to be so overpriced, that Jobs for once was forced to drastically lower its price. I'd be willing to bet that the iTouch was priced the same as the old iPhone prices, but were released at the present ones once the iPhone price was dropped.
[quote]
How do you know this? IPHones pricing could simply have been a method of controlling demand at release. In which case things worked rather well.
I find it funny though that you claim that he iphone and Touch are over priced but then at the same time claim that a tablet PC would cost more than a thousand dollars. You love to have it both ways.
[quote]
It's pretty obvious. If this isn't going to be an expensive, serious work machine, then it will be an e-mail machine that will be of lessor capability. Your "fun" machine.
[quote]
Here you go again trying to stir up the public by insulting them with your idea of a serious machine. I Suppose the system administrator that gets one of his servers back online with an iPhone isn't doing serious work in your mind. Or maybe the contractor that keeps in contact with his field people and uses the iPhone to check prices and arrange deliveries isn't doing serious work either. Maybe the mother that keeps track of her kids schedules at school and manges a bit of the household isn't doing serious work in you mind either. Like wise maybe the stripper that manages her schedule on a TOUCH and maybe even haves a few carefully selected tunes there isn't using the machine seriously.
See it just sounds like you like to put people down that have a different take on life than you do. Maybe you find some to the activities above distasteful or out of your league in some way so you discount then as in any way being serious to the person involved.
You want me to come up with sales figures for machines that YOU say aren't selling well? And then you assume that the Eee PC IS selling well?
Eee PC is sell well in initial product movement. That is generally accepted.
Why don't you produce figures for both the ultra's, AND the Eee? It's your contention, not mine.
I'm sure that I cna just walk up to an ASUS exec. and pry that information out of him freely.
[quote]
But, don't forget that an Ultra is also one of the most wanted devices from Apple on this board, and has been for quite a while.
[quote]
Hey it isn't something I'm looking for. I have no need for a miniature laptop emulator. Now a micro tablet is something totally different.
It is obvious that is some ways we agree but more so we sharply disagree. You seem to see the world through the lens of a specific business type where rather I'd like to think I'm seeing a demand more consumer centric. The difference in my mind is the greater chance for a device to cross over into the business world from the consumer world. The iPhone pretty much has proven this point. It certainly doesn't have the approach to business that a BlackBerry has but that hasn't caused businesses and business people to discount its usefulness or keep them from using it as a business appliance.
Dave
Not really. i'm looking at the way tablets are being marketed, and to whom. i'm not making up a category. That's being done by others here.
The point is that Apple can create its own marketing program to target whomever it likes. Apple doesn't have to chase any one market segment.
If it's being said that Apple will market to other categories, then that's just a guess.
Well yes and no. The issue is that they need to get reasonable sales for x device. A good argument can be made that marketing to traditional markets for these devices won't do.
Actually, since there is no product from Apple, and we have no idea at all that there ever will be, it's all a dream.
Yep. The only difference is that some dreams have a higher percentage chance of coming true at MWSF. Thus there would be a lot less negativity if this thread was about Penryn based hardware.
Oh please!
Every product line Apple has ever come out with has been a platforn for Apple's technologies. That includes the iPod.
Actually I have to disagree here. Mostly because Steve Jobs himself admitted a few years back that they almost missed the MP3 player craze. The only thing that iPod had going for it at the time was that iTunes was a reasonably good start on a MP3 management system. Even Itunes took some time becoming significant. IPod is probably the best example of Apple reacting to something in the market place they didn't start.
If you are talking about tablets that are a bit bigger than the iPhone/iTouch, then if you read back, you will see that it's a product that I have called for, and described. No argument there.
But if you are talking about the 11' to 13' tablet others here are arguing for, then no to both. They won't cost $600, and they won't be carried around on the subway here in good old New York.
I suspect that the first markets for a touch based device that is larger than pocket size will be found in something like a 8x4.5 enclosure. Almost the size of my Guitar Center catalog sitting on my desk. A size that I see as practical for hand held usage. Touch based systems larger than this I see as serving a different market.
There is another outlandish possibility too. That would be Apple entering the television market with a unit with a touch screen. Apple TV could be built right into an HD display and add TIVO like capability could be a very interesting product. That would put touch technology into a larger display, possibly for counter top usage. Problem is this won't likely extend to really large screen TV's.
Dave
APPLE MAKE A HOME SERVER....PLEASE
(i know you could set one up yourself, but this should be a standalone product simple easy first time mac user easy and user friendly)
Every product line Apple has ever come out with has been a platforn for Apple's technologies.
How so? I look at all the current Macs from the Mini up to the Mac Pro and I don't see any proprietary Apple technology anywhere. There may be some clever packaging like the quick access door on the Mac Pro, but there's nothing in any machine that isn't available on some of their competitors' systems.