When I go into the Apple store and look at the Apple TV movies, I can't believe how bad they look on those beautiful Sony Bravia TV's. Until they get Hi-Def or even good standard def on ATV, why bother?
To be honest, when I go into a store and see HDDVD or bluray movies playing on an HDTV, I can't believe how bad they look either.
My next TV is probably not going to be a 1080P but a 720P / 1080i Pioneer Plasma (PDP-5080 HD). Why?
Because it's got the best picture going and most of the content I watch is 720p / 1080i.
1080i, which represents the majority of HD programming (in the US, ABC, ESPN, and Fox seem to be the major holdouts), can scale very well to 1080p. On the other hand, (down)scaling to 720p would result in loss of resolution. Granted, most 1080i programmings are in fact 1440x1080 (rather than full 1920x1080), but upconverted 1080p still offers far greater detail than Pioneer PDP-5080's 1365x768 can resolve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave
All-in-all the lack of 1080p is only a perceived issue not a real deal-breaker for most people.
Most is relative. Right now, there are more 720p sets in use than 1080p. But manufacturers are introducing more 1080p sets than 720p. By next year, 1080p will represent majority of HDTV sets sold.
Perhaps Apple will update Apple TV with 1080p next year, assuming it doesn't get canned altogether. While dearth of HD contents (1080p or even 720p) is frustrating, 1080p capability can help Apple TV display more detailed photos. And if improved with native support for discrete multi-channel audio capability, can be marketed toward home theater enthusiasts.
That said, most folks in the US are not capable of downloading HD contents in few hours. An average pseudo-480p stereo 2-hour movies on iTunes Store is 1.5 GB. At roughly 3 times the resolution, 720p with 5.1-channel audio will balloon to 5 GB. And 1080p will be nearly 15 GB in size.
For this reason, I think Apple TV needs to integrate with HD DVD or Blu-Ray drive (either standard or as add-on) and/or offer DVR capability.
Availability: Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available. We'll e-mail you with an estimated delivery date as soon as we have more information. Your credit card will not be charged until we ship the item.
Availability: Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available. We'll e-mail you with an estimated delivery date as soon as we have more information. Your credit card will not be charged until we ship the item.
I wouldn't use that info as a gauge for anything. Amazon never carried both models. Its no surprise to me that they ran out of stock on the low end model.
TVs are huge these days so you need hi-res files. Even DVDs aren't really good enough for modern TVs. iTunes Store will need to go back to the cinema reels and remaster.
Also I heard the Apple tv only supports 2 speakers not 6. I don't know if that's true or not but everyone has 6 speakers these days.
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
While it's debatable exactly how many are optimal, there's no question that more than two generally sound better than two. The DVD standard is 5.1 (six speakers, with a few in 6.1).
Even without turning your head, you can perceive front/back positioning. When you take into account that people do move their heads when they listen and that generally there will be multiple people sitting in a room, requiring a bigger sweet spot, more than two speakers are definitely needed to create a 3d sound field.
I just upgraded my home theatre to surround sound, and even with just four speakers so far (left, right, left and right surround), it's a huge improvement. I'm debating the subwoofer and center speaker, so far I'm undecided but leaning a bit toward getting a center since I can hear that with my current setup, I'm not getting a solid center image.
If you really want to know why six speakers are needed, just find someone with a decent 5.1 system and pop in a DVD of a big action flick. Switch between surround and stereo, and the benefit of having more speakers should be immediately obvious.
I was pretty excited when AppleTV was annonced but not anymore.
Here in Asia, we have so many alternatives machine that can play whatever format you throw at it and we are not even abit concern about whatever itunes offer because mostly we cannot even buy anything off itunes at all.
Check out equipment such as by Sarotech which can play DivX, Xvid, h264 etc, stream video from computer and there are even models by other manufacturer (korean mostly) that allow the unit be a Network Storage, it is selling so hot here in Singapore that you have to pre-order.\
Did I mentioned that almost all of them play HD video today and not tomorrow. Also, they are sold without HDD so you can put whatever size HDD you desired. I see some foreigners buying it and putting in 750GB HDD, mentioning something like they got 1000s of movie to load inside (DivX i guess). I can't even imagine trancoding so many video just to be able to use AppleTV to watch.
Anything that does not play DivX/Xvid movie, forget about getting it at all. I even changed my DVD players because Samsung launch a DVD HDD recorder that I can used to store my DivX/Xvid files inside the HDD!
As for YouTube, what's that? Why u want to watch such low quality video on a TV?
Because HRTF can't possibly compensate for all seating positions.
That's ok, I've only got one sofa.
I have to say I find those huge home cinema setups embarrassing whenever I see them in someone's house when I visit. "What, you've not got better things to do than watch TV?" is my immediate thought.
My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.
My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.
TV - rots brains.
Snobbery aside, you don't watch movies either? If TV and DVDs are so horrible, why do you own them at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123
Why on earth would you only have one TV? Do you have one eye?
Most is relative. Right now, there are more 720p sets in use than 1080p. But manufacturers are introducing more 1080p sets than 720p. By next year, 1080p will represent majority of HDTV sets sold.
I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt
That said, most folks in the US are not capable of downloading HD contents in few hours. An average pseudo-480p stereo 2-hour movies on iTunes Store is 1.5 GB. At roughly 3 times the resolution, 720p with 5.1-channel audio will balloon to 5 GB. And 1080p will be nearly 15 GB in size.
Look to the torrent sites to see the actual figures. They're getting 720p at 2.5 to 3.5Mbps which looks fine.
OR, Apple could just give us a damn mid-tower for the same cost as this mythical Apple TV with BD, DVR, 5.1 blah blah blah and we could do it ourselves in OSX.
Here are the real issues:
1: The AppleTV is not ahead of it's time. It's lack of features put the CONCEPT ahead of the specs it actually provides (as in, it would have been a killer product if...)
2: The Mini is similarly crippled. It is underpowered, and underfeatured. To be a killer machine (in lieu of the Apple TV or the mid-tower), it would need full support of HD outputs (video, audio, optional BD or HD-DVD).
3: A mid-tower that has standard PCI/PCI-Express slots would enable users to take care of the above two but Apple as usual, has it's own mind as to what it will allow consumers to do and not to do.
With these 3 points in mind, why should ANYONE want to consider any current Apple product as an HTPC contender?
I have to say I find those huge home cinema setups embarrassing whenever I see them in someone's house when I visit. "What, you've not got better things to do than watch TV?" is my immediate thought.
My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.
TV - rots brains.
Aegis, just because you pride yourself on that doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. I don't watch many films, but when I do, I like to enjoy the experience. you may not have noticed, the the days of B/W 4:3 movie screens with mono are long over.
I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market.
McD
Most new models here are now 1080p, and prices have dropped a good deal. I suspect that anything less will be pretty much gone by the time the Feb 2009 changeover is here, except, perhaps, in the smallest sizes.
I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market
In the US, the price difference between 720p and 1080p sets isn't as dramatic. Few example:
Sharp LC-37D62U (1080p 37" LCD): $1599
Sharp LC-37D43U (720p 37" LCD): $1299
Sony KDL-40V2500 (1080p 40" LCD): $1699
Sony KDL-40S3000 (720p 40" LCD): $1499
Toshiba 42HL167 (1080p 42" LCD): $1699.99
Toshiba 42HL67 (720p 42" LCD): $1399.99
The price difference is there, but it is rapidly shrinking (was about twice a year ago). By next year, the difference will be negligible.
Even more interesting is that most makers have either stopped or will soon stop selling 720p sets for larger sizes. Sharp no longer makes 720p for 42" or larger. Sony and Toshiba have either stopped or will soon stop selling 720p for 46" or larger.
Why on earth would you only have one TV? Do you have one eye?
Because they're ridiculously expensive pieces of kit for limited quality. May as well make the old one last instead of jumping on the crappy digital kit for sale currently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder
Snobbery aside, you don't watch movies either? If TV and DVDs are so horrible, why do you own them at all?
I was all against buying a DVD player. It was bought for me. I just find them unbearable to watch. Maybe I've got to buy some super expensive DVD player or something but I just find most DVD players less watchable than old SVHS-PAL. Digital noise really annoys me. I rarely watch movies at home because of that. If I watch anything it's usually the news and the occasional BBC2 comedy once they've moved it from BBC3 which is digital only and I hate the low bandwidth digital services we have here not that I can get them here at home anyway yet - 2011 IIRC unless I stick a satellite dish on the house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
You've never beem to a movie?
Quite a few times. That's where I prefer to watch them. I don't want my lounge looking like a hi-fi shop / multimedia geek wet dream. I worked out it was cheaper, and much more fun, to go out to the pictures every so often instead of spending thousands on a TV setup I'd hate the look of and hate the low res content on.
It's like not owning a car either. I worked out it was cheaper to hire one when I needed it or use public transport, bikes and taxis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Aegis, just because you pride yourself on that doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. I don't watch many films, but when I do, I like to enjoy the experience. you may not have noticed, the the days of B/W 4:3 movie screens with mono are long over.
Exactly. That's why current TV setups are shit or way more expensive than I'm happy to pay for, only to have it superceded in a few years with something that is more tolerable for the limited time I'm prepared to surrender to TV. We're getting there with 1080p sets and BluRay/HDDVD but it's still too rich for me and nobody seems to do 1080p sets smaller than a small van yet. Instead you seem to have to have some blinged up mega-set that takes up a wall of your house. I'm just not into that kind of ridiculous status symbol.
Comments
When I go into the Apple store and look at the Apple TV movies, I can't believe how bad they look on those beautiful Sony Bravia TV's. Until they get Hi-Def or even good standard def on ATV, why bother?
To be honest, when I go into a store and see HDDVD or bluray movies playing on an HDTV, I can't believe how bad they look either.
To be honest, when I go into a store and see HDDVD or bluray movies playing on an HDTV, I can't believe how bad they look either.
I saw HD movies playing at a Sony store and the picture looked totally awesome to me. It's definitly on the top of my wish list.
My next TV is probably not going to be a 1080P but a 720P / 1080i Pioneer Plasma (PDP-5080 HD). Why?
Because it's got the best picture going and most of the content I watch is 720p / 1080i.
1080i, which represents the majority of HD programming (in the US, ABC, ESPN, and Fox seem to be the major holdouts), can scale very well to 1080p. On the other hand, (down)scaling to 720p would result in loss of resolution. Granted, most 1080i programmings are in fact 1440x1080 (rather than full 1920x1080), but upconverted 1080p still offers far greater detail than Pioneer PDP-5080's 1365x768 can resolve.
All-in-all the lack of 1080p is only a perceived issue not a real deal-breaker for most people.
Most is relative. Right now, there are more 720p sets in use than 1080p. But manufacturers are introducing more 1080p sets than 720p. By next year, 1080p will represent majority of HDTV sets sold.
Perhaps Apple will update Apple TV with 1080p next year, assuming it doesn't get canned altogether. While dearth of HD contents (1080p or even 720p) is frustrating, 1080p capability can help Apple TV display more detailed photos. And if improved with native support for discrete multi-channel audio capability, can be marketed toward home theater enthusiasts.
That said, most folks in the US are not capable of downloading HD contents in few hours. An average pseudo-480p stereo 2-hour movies on iTunes Store is 1.5 GB. At roughly 3 times the resolution, 720p with 5.1-channel audio will balloon to 5 GB. And 1080p will be nearly 15 GB in size.
For this reason, I think Apple TV needs to integrate with HD DVD or Blu-Ray drive (either standard or as add-on) and/or offer DVR capability.
I wouldn't use that info as a gauge for anything. Amazon never carried both models. Its no surprise to me that they ran out of stock on the low end model.
TVs are huge these days so you need hi-res files. Even DVDs aren't really good enough for modern TVs. iTunes Store will need to go back to the cinema reels and remaster.
Also I heard the Apple tv only supports 2 speakers not 6. I don't know if that's true or not but everyone has 6 speakers these days.
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
Because HRTF can't possibly compensate for all seating positions.
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
While it's debatable exactly how many are optimal, there's no question that more than two generally sound better than two. The DVD standard is 5.1 (six speakers, with a few in 6.1).
Even without turning your head, you can perceive front/back positioning. When you take into account that people do move their heads when they listen and that generally there will be multiple people sitting in a room, requiring a bigger sweet spot, more than two speakers are definitely needed to create a 3d sound field.
I just upgraded my home theatre to surround sound, and even with just four speakers so far (left, right, left and right surround), it's a huge improvement. I'm debating the subwoofer and center speaker, so far I'm undecided but leaning a bit toward getting a center since I can hear that with my current setup, I'm not getting a solid center image.
If you really want to know why six speakers are needed, just find someone with a decent 5.1 system and pop in a DVD of a big action flick. Switch between surround and stereo, and the benefit of having more speakers should be immediately obvious.
Here in Asia, we have so many alternatives machine that can play whatever format you throw at it and we are not even abit concern about whatever itunes offer because mostly we cannot even buy anything off itunes at all.
Check out equipment such as by Sarotech which can play DivX, Xvid, h264 etc, stream video from computer and there are even models by other manufacturer (korean mostly) that allow the unit be a Network Storage, it is selling so hot here in Singapore that you have to pre-order.
Did I mentioned that almost all of them play HD video today and not tomorrow. Also, they are sold without HDD so you can put whatever size HDD you desired. I see some foreigners buying it and putting in 750GB HDD, mentioning something like they got 1000s of movie to load inside (DivX i guess). I can't even imagine trancoding so many video just to be able to use AppleTV to watch.
Anything that does not play DivX/Xvid movie, forget about getting it at all. I even changed my DVD players because Samsung launch a DVD HDD recorder that I can used to store my DivX/Xvid files inside the HDD!
As for YouTube, what's that? Why u want to watch such low quality video on a TV?
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
No, but your two ears can tell when the sound is coming from the rear/side and front (e.g., airplane flying from left front to right rear).
Because HRTF can't possibly compensate for all seating positions.
That's ok, I've only got one sofa.
I have to say I find those huge home cinema setups embarrassing whenever I see them in someone's house when I visit. "What, you've not got better things to do than watch TV?" is my immediate thought.
My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.
TV - rots brains.
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
Why on earth would you only have one TV? Do you have one eye?
My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.
TV - rots brains.
Snobbery aside, you don't watch movies either? If TV and DVDs are so horrible, why do you own them at all?
Why on earth would you only have one TV? Do you have one eye?
FTW.
Most is relative. Right now, there are more 720p sets in use than 1080p. But manufacturers are introducing more 1080p sets than 720p. By next year, 1080p will represent majority of HDTV sets sold.
I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market.
That said, most folks in the US are not capable of downloading HD contents in few hours. An average pseudo-480p stereo 2-hour movies on iTunes Store is 1.5 GB. At roughly 3 times the resolution, 720p with 5.1-channel audio will balloon to 5 GB. And 1080p will be nearly 15 GB in size.
Look to the torrent sites to see the actual figures. They're getting 720p at 2.5 to 3.5Mbps which looks fine.
McD
Here are the real issues:
1: The AppleTV is not ahead of it's time. It's lack of features put the CONCEPT ahead of the specs it actually provides (as in, it would have been a killer product if...)
2: The Mini is similarly crippled. It is underpowered, and underfeatured. To be a killer machine (in lieu of the Apple TV or the mid-tower), it would need full support of HD outputs (video, audio, optional BD or HD-DVD).
3: A mid-tower that has standard PCI/PCI-Express slots would enable users to take care of the above two but Apple as usual, has it's own mind as to what it will allow consumers to do and not to do.
With these 3 points in mind, why should ANYONE want to consider any current Apple product as an HTPC contender?
Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?
You've never beem to a movie?
That's ok, I've only got one sofa.
I have to say I find those huge home cinema setups embarrassing whenever I see them in someone's house when I visit. "What, you've not got better things to do than watch TV?" is my immediate thought.
My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.
TV - rots brains.
Aegis, just because you pride yourself on that doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. I don't watch many films, but when I do, I like to enjoy the experience. you may not have noticed, the the days of B/W 4:3 movie screens with mono are long over.
I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market.
McD
Most new models here are now 1080p, and prices have dropped a good deal. I suspect that anything less will be pretty much gone by the time the Feb 2009 changeover is here, except, perhaps, in the smallest sizes.
I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market
In the US, the price difference between 720p and 1080p sets isn't as dramatic. Few example:
Sharp LC-37D62U (1080p 37" LCD): $1599
Sharp LC-37D43U (720p 37" LCD): $1299
Sony KDL-40V2500 (1080p 40" LCD): $1699
Sony KDL-40S3000 (720p 40" LCD): $1499
Toshiba 42HL167 (1080p 42" LCD): $1699.99
Toshiba 42HL67 (720p 42" LCD): $1399.99
The price difference is there, but it is rapidly shrinking (was about twice a year ago). By next year, the difference will be negligible.
Even more interesting is that most makers have either stopped or will soon stop selling 720p sets for larger sizes. Sharp no longer makes 720p for 42" or larger. Sony and Toshiba have either stopped or will soon stop selling 720p for 46" or larger.
Why on earth would you only have one TV? Do you have one eye?
Because they're ridiculously expensive pieces of kit for limited quality. May as well make the old one last instead of jumping on the crappy digital kit for sale currently.
Snobbery aside, you don't watch movies either? If TV and DVDs are so horrible, why do you own them at all?
I was all against buying a DVD player. It was bought for me. I just find them unbearable to watch. Maybe I've got to buy some super expensive DVD player or something but I just find most DVD players less watchable than old SVHS-PAL. Digital noise really annoys me. I rarely watch movies at home because of that. If I watch anything it's usually the news and the occasional BBC2 comedy once they've moved it from BBC3 which is digital only and I hate the low bandwidth digital services we have here not that I can get them here at home anyway yet - 2011 IIRC unless I stick a satellite dish on the house.
You've never beem to a movie?
Quite a few times. That's where I prefer to watch them. I don't want my lounge looking like a hi-fi shop / multimedia geek wet dream. I worked out it was cheaper, and much more fun, to go out to the pictures every so often instead of spending thousands on a TV setup I'd hate the look of and hate the low res content on.
It's like not owning a car either. I worked out it was cheaper to hire one when I needed it or use public transport, bikes and taxis.
Aegis, just because you pride yourself on that doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. I don't watch many films, but when I do, I like to enjoy the experience. you may not have noticed, the the days of B/W 4:3 movie screens with mono are long over.
Exactly. That's why current TV setups are shit or way more expensive than I'm happy to pay for, only to have it superceded in a few years with something that is more tolerable for the limited time I'm prepared to surrender to TV. We're getting there with 1080p sets and BluRay/HDDVD but it's still too rich for me and nobody seems to do 1080p sets smaller than a small van yet. Instead you seem to have to have some blinged up mega-set that takes up a wall of your house. I'm just not into that kind of ridiculous status symbol.