I think it's more a matter of what we're used to, and how it's implemented.
Someone here once cited a "study" in which experienced typists used a regular keyboard, and another group of experienced typists used a planar keyboard. After some time, I don't remember how long, but it was a somewhat decent number, weeks, I think, they tested typing speed, and accuracy.
To little surprise on my part, those who used the regular keyboard did much better. But, just as in real life, the test had a major flaw.
Most keyboards are planar. As in the keys lie on a plane. Notable common exceptions are things like Microsoft Natural Keyboards.
Comparisons between the Dvorak keyboard and the Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard have found performance difference in moderate training time (50 hours over 1 month to regain/exceed original typing speed) thus your assertion that no study can be valid unless you start with untrained typists is incorrect. Especially given that the Dvorak keyboard actually DOES interfere with muscle memory since the keys are displaced where as a virtual QWERTY keyboard has the same keyboard layout.
Muscle memory should aid a virtual keyboard, not hinder it. The primary shortfall of virtual keyboards is the lack of tactile feedback. With no tactile reference point for the rest position it is easy to begin drifting which would increase downstream errors. This is less of an issue for the iPhone but based on older studies on membrane keyboards (effects of embossing and bumps on error rates) more relevant for full sized keyboards.
There are multiple studies starting with old membrane keyboard to modern multitouch keyboards. But the current results are that for multi-touch/virtual keyboards providing auditory cues is most important addition since the largest block of errors seen has been errors of omission (where the user thought they hit the key but didn't) and followed by drift...which is why I don't list lack of actuation cue as a shortfall...as long as you can hear an auditory click anyway.
As for the likely study you refer to (the iPhone study) it was an early study. A later study (fall 2007) indicates that iPhone speed is about the same as QWERTY but with far higher error rates. Training time by this period for iPhone owners would have been about the same as that as dvorak switchers in the US Navy study (1 month) although training would have been more haphazard.
"While hard-key QWERTY owners and iPhone owners were equally rapid at entering
messages on their own phones, iPhone owners made significantly more errors while using
their own phones and left significantly more errors in their final message.
Additionally, we found no statistically significant difference between the number of text
errors made on the iPhone by either iPhone owners or novices."
Given the error rates on the least commonly used letter in the english language I wonder if Apple shouldn't have gone ahead and used an alternate mapping over the QWERTY one. Certainly training time would have been no longer than training to text using just a numeric keypad and error rates could have been reduced.
Most keyboards are planar. As in the keys lie on a plane. Notable common exceptions are things like Microsoft Natural Keyboards.
That term was used in the late '70's for keyboards such as the Atari 400's. It meant that the tops of the keys were in the same plane as the case of the keyboard. If it's gone out of use, that's fine too.
Quote:
Comparisons between the Dvorak keyboard and the Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard have found performance difference in moderate training time (50 hours over 1 month to regain/exceed original typing speed) thus your assertion that no study can be valid unless you start with untrained typists is incorrect. Especially given that the Dvorak keyboard actually DOES interfere with muscle memory since the keys are displaced where as a virtual QWERTY keyboard has the same keyboard layout.
It's a much larger move to a, whatever you want to call it, soft keyboard (that's what we call keys on the surface of a touch sensitive oscilloscope screen that can also sometimes vary) than to a Dvorak keyboard which still uses the same method of moving keys. But, I will grant that both cause dislocation. Still, trained typists have the experience of typing. That should be eliminated. The variables are complex. I'm also not sure from what you said, which way the typists were moving, from, or to, the Dvorak.
Quote:
Muscle memory should aid a virtual keyboard, not hinder it. The primary shortfall of virtual keyboards is the lack of tactile feedback. With no tactile reference point for the rest position it is easy to begin drifting which would increase downstream errors. This is less of an issue for the iPhone but based on older studies on membrane keyboards (effects of embossing and bumps on error rates) more relevant for full sized keyboards.
I don't see how that can be. When typing on a key, one is expecting a certain movement, and becomes familiar with it. If that movement is removed, then a totally different response is required.
Let me say that these, as you are calling them, virtual keyboards are for all intents, a new technology. And as I did say, are improving as we get experience with them. Look at "normal" keyboards, and see how they changed from the first models to the newest. Many of those changes were said to cause more errors and fatigue, but the opposite occurred.
Quote:
There are multiple studies starting with old membrane keyboard to modern multitouch keyboards. But the current results are that for multi-touch/virtual keyboards providing auditory cues is most important addition since the largest block of errors seen has been errors of omission (where the user thought they hit the key but didn't) and followed by drift...which is why I don't list lack of actuation cue as a shortfall...as long as you can hear an auditory click anyway.
I do agree that any help the keyboard can give is good. Just like the centering tits on the "F", "J" and the "5" keys on most keyboards aid in keeping one's hands where they belong. Though Apple eliminated them from the new aluminum keyboard that I'm using here.
Quote:
As for the likely study you refer to (the iPhone study) it was an early study. A later study (fall 2007) indicates that iPhone speed is about the same as QWERTY but with far higher error rates. Training time by this period for iPhone owners would have been about the same as that as dvorak switchers in the US Navy study (1 month) although training would have been more haphazard.
"While hard-key QWERTY owners and iPhone owners were equally rapid at entering
messages on their own phones, iPhone owners made significantly more errors while using
their own phones and left significantly more errors in their final message.
Additionally, we found no statistically significant difference between the number of text
errors made on the iPhone by either iPhone owners or novices."
Given the error rates on the least commonly used letter in the english language I wonder if Apple shouldn't have gone ahead and used an alternate mapping over the QWERTY one. Certainly training time would have been no longer than training to text using just a numeric keypad and error rates could have been reduced.
The earlier study was not, I seem to remember, about the iPhone, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. It was the one we disagreed about earlier this year, I think it was.
I just read the one you now supplied. I have no argument with it.
But I must point out that these small thumb operated keyboards are not good examples of any keyboard. They are all difficult to use well. My Palm keyboard is a real pain to use.
And the users did rate the iPhone keyboard as being in the middle. I suppose that refers to the preference over the numeric keyboard, which is not hard to understand.
What I found about the iPhone keyboard, after just using it for about five minutes, was that in the vertical position, the way it is normally used (and a mistake on Apple's part to only allow that, except for Safari, something I hope they will correct) I made a fair number of mistakes. I assume that was the way it was used in this test as well, from looking at the picture.
But when I turned it horizontally, typing in Safari, it was far easier to use, and I made few mistakes. What I'd like to see is a study making that comparison.
Anyone interested in any product should go and have a look at it before they buy it. It took me 2 seconds in the store to identify the iMac 20" display as a compromised low budget display. The vertical viewing angle is questionable. The 24" one is much better, and almost solid. All this whining is tiresome.. But I guess Apple did a lousy job of warning potential customers. They should have a big warning sign on the box saying:
"This is the fancy new iMac 20". Even though it looks fantastic, it is our cheapest consumer all-in-one Mac, and so we decided to put a low budget display in it with low vertical viewing angle, in fact lower than most displays out there, for no other reason than to make a couple of extra bucks a piece, and hoping that nobody will notice."
It is really lame of Apple to put this lousy display in the iMac 20". 20" is a large and nice size. Many pros would think of the iMac 20" as a serious work station. But Apple effectively killed that option with the inclusion of this screen, and giving a lot of consumers a bad Mac experience in the same blow.
Don't the new 20 inch iMacs use the cheaper, lower quality 6 bit displays which are physically incapable of displaying "millions" of colors?
It's not capable of statically showing that many colors. It's possible to achieve close enough color with time-based dithering, which is the shimmering and flickering that you might see under certain circumstances, or seemingly all the time if you're at all like me. The 20" iMacs also have a lower viewing angle.
I see some variation of the shimmering effect on nearly all regular mobile phones as well.
I don't see your product ever happening Ireland. What exactly would it be good for? Maybe a 7" version that really is the new Newton. The Mac laptop of the future will be an unbelievabley thin OLED screen (that is multi-touch), and then a Multi-Touch keyboard that has tactile feedback and can instantly be any other language (or any type of buttons for that matter). They fold together to be a half inch or less total thickness.
Why would we want to prop up your product like a picture frame and then bring along a wireless keyboard and mouse?
If we counted up all of the things he said wouldn't work, or be a good idea, we would have half of Apple's current product line.
I always wonder what Jobs is actually meaning when he poo poos a product, or catagory.
It could be marketing, a sort of reverse vaporware. Instead of announcing a product that never comes to light or only does years later, in the hope of making people wait for yours, rather than buying the competition's, this way is different.
He says that no one will ever want to use a product like that, in the hope that no one will begin to make them?until Apple's bursts upon the scene, and suddenly, it's the only right way to do it.
Only two people would ever think of doing that, Jobs, and of course, myself.
Locking down discussions like this, or removing posts from others is something about Apple's behavior that disturbs me greatly.
Do they really think that no one will know these problems are occurring, or that they are serious because of their doing that? It's not to be believed!
You know I'm really getting tired of people like you. You are totally clueless about why threads get closed or deleted. I have been a regular on the Apple discussion forums since 2001 and I can testify that threads do not get locked because of possible negative or embarrassing issues. They get locked or deleted when the threads get out of control because a number of users can't seem to keep the discussion civil. After the initial reports of an issue the threads then often degenerate into continuous rants, accusations of intentional, illegal activity by Apple, threats and calls for class action lawsuits, and any other potentially libelous, scurrilous, and generally disruptive comments from a few aggrieved users who can't seem to keep their anger under control. Why should any company allow that kind of drivel to proceed. Usually after a thread like this is locked another is started about the same issue and for awhile it's under control. Usually ,though, the same users come back and start their name calling, threats, and bashing again. The thread is then again locked. Users like me who have enough points have the ability to report posts like that to the administrators along with the reason we think the post might want to investigated by the admins. The final decision to lock or delete a thread lies with the admins.
You can be mad at Apple, upset they aren't moving or recognizing an issue as fast as you might think is required, but you can also keep the pressure on without resorting to threats, name calling, and libelous accusations. In an earlier life I was a customer service rep for Ma Bell. We were well within company guidelines to simply hang up on a customer who started cursing us, suggesting our mothers were female dogs, threatening us with physical violence. That's why we never used our real names.
Your assumption that Apple locks threads in hopes the problem goes away is sorely off base. If you actually read some of the crap that people post in these threads you would know that. But apparently you prefer to accept the worst possible motives as gospel. If I thought Apple was doing what it's accused of I certainly wouldn't remain a customer or continue using the forums.
p.s. Oh, and another way to really get the help one needs is to threaten sell your Mac and go Windows. That really inspires one's fellow Mac users to rush to your aid. We're so scared you might do it. Not!
You know I'm really getting tired of people like you. You are totally clueless about why threads get closed or deleted. I have been a regular on the Apple discussion forums since 2001 and I can testify that threads do not get locked because of possible negative or embarrassing issues. They get locked or deleted when the threads get out of control because a number of users can't seem to keep the discussion civil. After the initial reports of an issue the threads then often degenerate into continuous rants, accusations of intentional, illegal activity by Apple, threats and calls for class action lawsuits, and any other potentially libelous, scurrilous, and generally disruptive comments from a few aggrieved users who can't seem to keep their anger under control. Why should any company allow that kind of drivel to proceed. Usually after a thread like this is locked another is started about the same issue and for awhile it's under control. Usually ,though, the same users come back and start their name calling, threats, and bashing again. The thread is then again locked. Users like me who have enough points have the ability to report posts like that to the administrators along with the reason we think the post might want to investigated by the admins. The final decision to lock or delete a thread lies with the admins.
You can be mad at Apple, upset they aren't moving or recognizing an issue as fast as you might think is required, but you can also keep the pressure on without resorting to threats, name calling, and libelous accusations. In an earlier life I was a customer service rep for Ma Bell. We were well within company guidelines to simply hang up on a customer who started cursing us, suggesting our mothers were female dogs, threatening us with physical violence. That's why we never used our real names.
Your assumption that Apple locks threads in hopes the problem goes away is sorely off base. If you actually read some of the crap that people post in these threads you would know that. But apparently you prefer to accept the worst possible motives as gospel. If I thought Apple was doing what it's accused of I certainly wouldn't remain a customer or continue using the forums.
p.s. Oh, and another way to really get the help one needs is to threaten sell your Mac and go Windows. That really inspires one's fellow Mac users to rush to your aid. We're so scared you might do it. Not!
You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.
And, id you think it's unnoticed except on an Apple rumor board, think again!
Apple could find a better way around this, if they wanted to, instead of closing it off altogether.
I'm not excusing the nonsense that some people write. Unfortunately, some writers who complain about some Apple madmen fans are correct.
But, if Apple really wanted to keep these discussions open, they could do what many sites do when confronted with absurd posts, they could vet them first, and then post them if they meet some fair standard of compliance, which would be up there in the FAQ and thereupon enforced. Then, by allowing critical posts to appear that meet those guidelines, they would not be criticized by the fair minded people, whom you do not seem to like.
You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.
And, id you think it's unnoticed except on an Apple rumor board, think again!
Apple could find a better way around this, if they wanted to, instead of closing it off altogether.
I'm not excusing the nonsense that some people write. Unfortunately, some writers who complain about some Apple madmen fans are correct.
But, if Apple really wanted to keep these discussions open, they could do what many sites do when confronted with absurd posts, they could vet them first, and then post them if they meet some fair standard of compliance, which would be up there in the FAQ and thereupon enforced. Then, by allowing critical posts to appear that meet those guidelines, they would not be criticized by the fair minded people, whom you do not seem to like.
I'll ask you the same question I ask of all your ilk. If Apple is the source of all evil in the world then why are you still a user/customer? According to your posts Apple is comprised of a bunch of fascists who regularly screw over customers, suppress free speech, intentionally break the law, and any other foul crap somebody comes up with. If I'm the "fanboy" because I try to defend them when some loser loser libels them then do you suffer from "battered wife syndrome" or in which the victim keeps coming back for more abuse. How can you still be the customer of a company you so apparently despise in your numerous posts in this forum over the years?
You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.
I'll ask you the same question I ask of all your ilk. If Apple is the source of all evil in the world then why are you still a user/customer? According to your posts Apple is comprised of a bunch of fascists who regularly screw over customers, suppress free speech, intentionally break the law, and any other foul crap somebody comes up with. If I'm the "fanboy" because I try to defend them when some loser loser libels them then do you suffer from "battered wife syndrome" or in which the victim keeps coming back for more abuse. How can you still be the customer of a company you so apparently despise in your numerous posts in this forum over the years?
You're going nutso over this. You are a total idiot, if you think like that. Apple is a company. Don't give us that crap about me thinking that Apple is the source of all evil just because they do something that's stupid once and a while. None of us here think that. But, it seems that those who can't take the criticism directed towards Apple, must try to raise this to levels it was never intended to be.
What are you anyway? Are you that much of a fanboy that you can't see past your rose colored glasses when you look at them?
Apple is a very good company. I have 11 thousand shares of their stock, and I'm not selling so fast. But, they are far from perfect, and Jobs is no martyr. It may be near Christmas, but don't elevate him to sainthood quite yet.
If you really have been here for long, and have read my posts, then you would do better than to have selective memory about it. I applaud Apple when I think they've done well, and defend them when I think it requires it. I've been accused of being a fanboy at times by some irate member.
But, I will also justly criticize them when I think they're wrong.
If you find that to be too difficult to wrap you head around, then you must have problems with most of our discussions, because it's about half and half between criticizing them when they do wrong, and praising them when they do right.
Your little head must be spinning around because of that.
If you can't get over it, then go where you won't have the problem. I suggest staying home, and away from anything electrical.
Comments
I think it's more a matter of what we're used to, and how it's implemented.
Someone here once cited a "study" in which experienced typists used a regular keyboard, and another group of experienced typists used a planar keyboard. After some time, I don't remember how long, but it was a somewhat decent number, weeks, I think, they tested typing speed, and accuracy.
To little surprise on my part, those who used the regular keyboard did much better. But, just as in real life, the test had a major flaw.
Most keyboards are planar. As in the keys lie on a plane. Notable common exceptions are things like Microsoft Natural Keyboards.
Comparisons between the Dvorak keyboard and the Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard have found performance difference in moderate training time (50 hours over 1 month to regain/exceed original typing speed) thus your assertion that no study can be valid unless you start with untrained typists is incorrect. Especially given that the Dvorak keyboard actually DOES interfere with muscle memory since the keys are displaced where as a virtual QWERTY keyboard has the same keyboard layout.
Muscle memory should aid a virtual keyboard, not hinder it. The primary shortfall of virtual keyboards is the lack of tactile feedback. With no tactile reference point for the rest position it is easy to begin drifting which would increase downstream errors. This is less of an issue for the iPhone but based on older studies on membrane keyboards (effects of embossing and bumps on error rates) more relevant for full sized keyboards.
There are multiple studies starting with old membrane keyboard to modern multitouch keyboards. But the current results are that for multi-touch/virtual keyboards providing auditory cues is most important addition since the largest block of errors seen has been errors of omission (where the user thought they hit the key but didn't) and followed by drift...which is why I don't list lack of actuation cue as a shortfall...as long as you can hear an auditory click anyway.
As for the likely study you refer to (the iPhone study) it was an early study. A later study (fall 2007) indicates that iPhone speed is about the same as QWERTY but with far higher error rates. Training time by this period for iPhone owners would have been about the same as that as dvorak switchers in the US Navy study (1 month) although training would have been more haphazard.
"While hard-key QWERTY owners and iPhone owners were equally rapid at entering
messages on their own phones, iPhone owners made significantly more errors while using
their own phones and left significantly more errors in their final message.
Additionally, we found no statistically significant difference between the number of text
errors made on the iPhone by either iPhone owners or novices."
http://www.usercentric.com/iPhone/iPhone3_Nov07.pdf
Given the error rates on the least commonly used letter in the english language I wonder if Apple shouldn't have gone ahead and used an alternate mapping over the QWERTY one. Certainly training time would have been no longer than training to text using just a numeric keypad and error rates could have been reduced.
Most keyboards are planar. As in the keys lie on a plane. Notable common exceptions are things like Microsoft Natural Keyboards.
That term was used in the late '70's for keyboards such as the Atari 400's. It meant that the tops of the keys were in the same plane as the case of the keyboard. If it's gone out of use, that's fine too.
Comparisons between the Dvorak keyboard and the Sholes (QWERTY) keyboard have found performance difference in moderate training time (50 hours over 1 month to regain/exceed original typing speed) thus your assertion that no study can be valid unless you start with untrained typists is incorrect. Especially given that the Dvorak keyboard actually DOES interfere with muscle memory since the keys are displaced where as a virtual QWERTY keyboard has the same keyboard layout.
It's a much larger move to a, whatever you want to call it, soft keyboard (that's what we call keys on the surface of a touch sensitive oscilloscope screen that can also sometimes vary) than to a Dvorak keyboard which still uses the same method of moving keys. But, I will grant that both cause dislocation. Still, trained typists have the experience of typing. That should be eliminated. The variables are complex. I'm also not sure from what you said, which way the typists were moving, from, or to, the Dvorak.
Muscle memory should aid a virtual keyboard, not hinder it. The primary shortfall of virtual keyboards is the lack of tactile feedback. With no tactile reference point for the rest position it is easy to begin drifting which would increase downstream errors. This is less of an issue for the iPhone but based on older studies on membrane keyboards (effects of embossing and bumps on error rates) more relevant for full sized keyboards.
I don't see how that can be. When typing on a key, one is expecting a certain movement, and becomes familiar with it. If that movement is removed, then a totally different response is required.
Let me say that these, as you are calling them, virtual keyboards are for all intents, a new technology. And as I did say, are improving as we get experience with them. Look at "normal" keyboards, and see how they changed from the first models to the newest. Many of those changes were said to cause more errors and fatigue, but the opposite occurred.
There are multiple studies starting with old membrane keyboard to modern multitouch keyboards. But the current results are that for multi-touch/virtual keyboards providing auditory cues is most important addition since the largest block of errors seen has been errors of omission (where the user thought they hit the key but didn't) and followed by drift...which is why I don't list lack of actuation cue as a shortfall...as long as you can hear an auditory click anyway.
I do agree that any help the keyboard can give is good. Just like the centering tits on the "F", "J" and the "5" keys on most keyboards aid in keeping one's hands where they belong. Though Apple eliminated them from the new aluminum keyboard that I'm using here.
As for the likely study you refer to (the iPhone study) it was an early study. A later study (fall 2007) indicates that iPhone speed is about the same as QWERTY but with far higher error rates. Training time by this period for iPhone owners would have been about the same as that as dvorak switchers in the US Navy study (1 month) although training would have been more haphazard.
"While hard-key QWERTY owners and iPhone owners were equally rapid at entering
messages on their own phones, iPhone owners made significantly more errors while using
their own phones and left significantly more errors in their final message.
Additionally, we found no statistically significant difference between the number of text
errors made on the iPhone by either iPhone owners or novices."
http://www.usercentric.com/iPhone/iPhone3_Nov07.pdf
Given the error rates on the least commonly used letter in the english language I wonder if Apple shouldn't have gone ahead and used an alternate mapping over the QWERTY one. Certainly training time would have been no longer than training to text using just a numeric keypad and error rates could have been reduced.
The earlier study was not, I seem to remember, about the iPhone, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. It was the one we disagreed about earlier this year, I think it was.
I just read the one you now supplied. I have no argument with it.
But I must point out that these small thumb operated keyboards are not good examples of any keyboard. They are all difficult to use well. My Palm keyboard is a real pain to use.
And the users did rate the iPhone keyboard as being in the middle. I suppose that refers to the preference over the numeric keyboard, which is not hard to understand.
What I found about the iPhone keyboard, after just using it for about five minutes, was that in the vertical position, the way it is normally used (and a mistake on Apple's part to only allow that, except for Safari, something I hope they will correct) I made a fair number of mistakes. I assume that was the way it was used in this test as well, from looking at the picture.
But when I turned it horizontally, typing in Safari, it was far easier to use, and I made few mistakes. What I'd like to see is a study making that comparison.
"This is the fancy new iMac 20". Even though it looks fantastic, it is our cheapest consumer all-in-one Mac, and so we decided to put a low budget display in it with low vertical viewing angle, in fact lower than most displays out there, for no other reason than to make a couple of extra bucks a piece, and hoping that nobody will notice."
It is really lame of Apple to put this lousy display in the iMac 20". 20" is a large and nice size. Many pros would think of the iMac 20" as a serious work station. But Apple effectively killed that option with the inclusion of this screen, and giving a lot of consumers a bad Mac experience in the same blow.
Don't the new 20 inch iMacs use the cheaper, lower quality 6 bit displays which are physically incapable of displaying "millions" of colors?
It's not capable of statically showing that many colors. It's possible to achieve close enough color with time-based dithering, which is the shimmering and flickering that you might see under certain circumstances, or seemingly all the time if you're at all like me. The 20" iMacs also have a lower viewing angle.
I see some variation of the shimmering effect on nearly all regular mobile phones as well.
Why would we want to prop up your product like a picture frame and then bring along a wireless keyboard and mouse?
If we counted up all of the things he said wouldn't work, or be a good idea, we would have half of Apple's current product line.
I always wonder what Jobs is actually meaning when he poo poos a product, or catagory.
It could be marketing, a sort of reverse vaporware. Instead of announcing a product that never comes to light or only does years later, in the hope of making people wait for yours, rather than buying the competition's, this way is different.
He says that no one will ever want to use a product like that, in the hope that no one will begin to make them?until Apple's bursts upon the scene, and suddenly, it's the only right way to do it.
Only two people would ever think of doing that, Jobs, and of course, myself.
melgross = new fake steve jobs???
Locking down discussions like this, or removing posts from others is something about Apple's behavior that disturbs me greatly.
Do they really think that no one will know these problems are occurring, or that they are serious because of their doing that? It's not to be believed!
You know I'm really getting tired of people like you. You are totally clueless about why threads get closed or deleted. I have been a regular on the Apple discussion forums since 2001 and I can testify that threads do not get locked because of possible negative or embarrassing issues. They get locked or deleted when the threads get out of control because a number of users can't seem to keep the discussion civil. After the initial reports of an issue the threads then often degenerate into continuous rants, accusations of intentional, illegal activity by Apple, threats and calls for class action lawsuits, and any other potentially libelous, scurrilous, and generally disruptive comments from a few aggrieved users who can't seem to keep their anger under control. Why should any company allow that kind of drivel to proceed. Usually after a thread like this is locked another is started about the same issue and for awhile it's under control. Usually ,though, the same users come back and start their name calling, threats, and bashing again. The thread is then again locked. Users like me who have enough points have the ability to report posts like that to the administrators along with the reason we think the post might want to investigated by the admins. The final decision to lock or delete a thread lies with the admins.
You can be mad at Apple, upset they aren't moving or recognizing an issue as fast as you might think is required, but you can also keep the pressure on without resorting to threats, name calling, and libelous accusations. In an earlier life I was a customer service rep for Ma Bell. We were well within company guidelines to simply hang up on a customer who started cursing us, suggesting our mothers were female dogs, threatening us with physical violence. That's why we never used our real names.
Your assumption that Apple locks threads in hopes the problem goes away is sorely off base. If you actually read some of the crap that people post in these threads you would know that. But apparently you prefer to accept the worst possible motives as gospel. If I thought Apple was doing what it's accused of I certainly wouldn't remain a customer or continue using the forums.
p.s. Oh, and another way to really get the help one needs is to threaten sell your Mac and go Windows. That really inspires one's fellow Mac users to rush to your aid. We're so scared you might do it. Not!
You know I'm really getting tired of people like you. You are totally clueless about why threads get closed or deleted. I have been a regular on the Apple discussion forums since 2001 and I can testify that threads do not get locked because of possible negative or embarrassing issues. They get locked or deleted when the threads get out of control because a number of users can't seem to keep the discussion civil. After the initial reports of an issue the threads then often degenerate into continuous rants, accusations of intentional, illegal activity by Apple, threats and calls for class action lawsuits, and any other potentially libelous, scurrilous, and generally disruptive comments from a few aggrieved users who can't seem to keep their anger under control. Why should any company allow that kind of drivel to proceed. Usually after a thread like this is locked another is started about the same issue and for awhile it's under control. Usually ,though, the same users come back and start their name calling, threats, and bashing again. The thread is then again locked. Users like me who have enough points have the ability to report posts like that to the administrators along with the reason we think the post might want to investigated by the admins. The final decision to lock or delete a thread lies with the admins.
You can be mad at Apple, upset they aren't moving or recognizing an issue as fast as you might think is required, but you can also keep the pressure on without resorting to threats, name calling, and libelous accusations. In an earlier life I was a customer service rep for Ma Bell. We were well within company guidelines to simply hang up on a customer who started cursing us, suggesting our mothers were female dogs, threatening us with physical violence. That's why we never used our real names.
Your assumption that Apple locks threads in hopes the problem goes away is sorely off base. If you actually read some of the crap that people post in these threads you would know that. But apparently you prefer to accept the worst possible motives as gospel. If I thought Apple was doing what it's accused of I certainly wouldn't remain a customer or continue using the forums.
p.s. Oh, and another way to really get the help one needs is to threaten sell your Mac and go Windows. That really inspires one's fellow Mac users to rush to your aid. We're so scared you might do it. Not!
You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.
And, id you think it's unnoticed except on an Apple rumor board, think again!
Apple could find a better way around this, if they wanted to, instead of closing it off altogether.
I'm not excusing the nonsense that some people write. Unfortunately, some writers who complain about some Apple madmen fans are correct.
But, if Apple really wanted to keep these discussions open, they could do what many sites do when confronted with absurd posts, they could vet them first, and then post them if they meet some fair standard of compliance, which would be up there in the FAQ and thereupon enforced. Then, by allowing critical posts to appear that meet those guidelines, they would not be criticized by the fair minded people, whom you do not seem to like.
You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.
And, id you think it's unnoticed except on an Apple rumor board, think again!
Apple could find a better way around this, if they wanted to, instead of closing it off altogether.
I'm not excusing the nonsense that some people write. Unfortunately, some writers who complain about some Apple madmen fans are correct.
But, if Apple really wanted to keep these discussions open, they could do what many sites do when confronted with absurd posts, they could vet them first, and then post them if they meet some fair standard of compliance, which would be up there in the FAQ and thereupon enforced. Then, by allowing critical posts to appear that meet those guidelines, they would not be criticized by the fair minded people, whom you do not seem to like.
I'll ask you the same question I ask of all your ilk. If Apple is the source of all evil in the world then why are you still a user/customer? According to your posts Apple is comprised of a bunch of fascists who regularly screw over customers, suppress free speech, intentionally break the law, and any other foul crap somebody comes up with. If I'm the "fanboy" because I try to defend them when some loser loser libels them then do you suffer from "battered wife syndrome" or in which the victim keeps coming back for more abuse. How can you still be the customer of a company you so apparently despise in your numerous posts in this forum over the years?
You know, we're pretty tired of people like you too. People who make excuses for Apple, no matter how stupid a move they make. And this is a pretty stupid move. Your excuses for them notwithstanding, it's simply arrogant of Apple to do this. Very few people disagree with me on this one. If you've been around enough to follow the threads here about this, you'd see what I mean.
I agree, there's no excuses. Fuck Apple!
PS.. Mac touch FTW!
I'll ask you the same question I ask of all your ilk. If Apple is the source of all evil in the world then why are you still a user/customer? According to your posts Apple is comprised of a bunch of fascists who regularly screw over customers, suppress free speech, intentionally break the law, and any other foul crap somebody comes up with. If I'm the "fanboy" because I try to defend them when some loser loser libels them then do you suffer from "battered wife syndrome" or in which the victim keeps coming back for more abuse. How can you still be the customer of a company you so apparently despise in your numerous posts in this forum over the years?
You're going nutso over this. You are a total idiot, if you think like that. Apple is a company. Don't give us that crap about me thinking that Apple is the source of all evil just because they do something that's stupid once and a while. None of us here think that. But, it seems that those who can't take the criticism directed towards Apple, must try to raise this to levels it was never intended to be.
What are you anyway? Are you that much of a fanboy that you can't see past your rose colored glasses when you look at them?
Apple is a very good company. I have 11 thousand shares of their stock, and I'm not selling so fast. But, they are far from perfect, and Jobs is no martyr. It may be near Christmas, but don't elevate him to sainthood quite yet.
If you really have been here for long, and have read my posts, then you would do better than to have selective memory about it. I applaud Apple when I think they've done well, and defend them when I think it requires it. I've been accused of being a fanboy at times by some irate member.
But, I will also justly criticize them when I think they're wrong.
If you find that to be too difficult to wrap you head around, then you must have problems with most of our discussions, because it's about half and half between criticizing them when they do wrong, and praising them when they do right.
Your little head must be spinning around because of that.
If you can't get over it, then go where you won't have the problem. I suggest staying home, and away from anything electrical.
I have 11 thousand shares of their stock
Cool, man...... !