There is no heavy or light virtualization by Intel. The chip either has Virtualization support or it doesn't.
Intel has continually been updating its visualization technology in part trying to extend it all the way out to the I/O chips. There is still much to be done as Video hasn't been virtualized yet.
In any event the point stands as this is just an example. Technology is being added to the processors and chip sets that is not available on older platforms. Some of this technologies can have an impact on what your system is capable of doing.
I look at it this way if you purchased a machine that can be reasonably updated, processor wise, a year or two down the road you purchased an underpowered system at the start. Especially in the last couple of years where technology has changed so rapidly.
Upgrading an existing system with new parts is the most overated thing since pc's were born.
Lets say that your pc starts to be outdated after 2-3 years. What would you replace?
Ok say i have a p4 2.6 ghz a coupple of years old. I want to "upgrade" it. I cant get one of those new quad core2's, because my motherboard doesn't support it. Or my power supply.
Ok, then i want new graphics. In order to play the new games you need nvidea 8xxx series. My current Powersupply would totally NOT support the power consumption of these cards, and my motherboard would probably not support PCIexpress.
Ok, so why didn't i upgrade it a bit earlier, with slightly older parts? Because at that point the computer was still pretty much up to date, and could play the new games.
That is the case with upgrading.
When your pc needs an upgrade, it is probably time to shift every component in the system. I mean if you buy a computer today, you would want blueraydrive, bigger harddisk, SSD maybe, quad core PCU, faster RAM, faster interfaces, and the newest generation of wireless etc etc.
It is simply overated how much you could benefit from replacing different parts in a system as opposed to buying a new system, and Apple understands this.
Most PCs are still in the old style cases because they're cheap commodity items that commodity board designs and commodity parts are guaranteed to work with. They're the cheap, safe, familiar bet. Most of them aren't even designed to allow for the possibility that the various slots and bays will be filled. If you actually try to load them up as if they were serious workstations, they overheat.
The days when internal expandability was a necessary prerequisite are at least a decade behind us. IT professionals lost the last major battle to keep ethernet on external cards so they could be easily swapped out. Video accelerator chipsets are not optional. Sound is not optional. Networking is not optional. High-speed serial connectors are not optional. Parallel ports are... wait, parallel ports? What?! They're all integrated now, which is cheaper and more reliable anyway, and more in line with the general population's disinclination to crack open devices they don't understand to muck around in their innards.
Furthermore, since an ATX case and an ATX-compatible motherboard is the design equivalent of unconditional surrender and Apple is a design company, it's not clear that a computer built along those lines would just dilute the brand and sell even more poorly than the mini has. The only way to know for sure is to try, but I feel confident that it wouldn't fly.
What is becoming clear is that people like relating to devices as self-contained objects. Software has to function as an intuitive extension of the hardware, and the hardware has to get out of the way when it's possible, and be pleasant to the senses when it's not. The old personal computer design flies against that paradigm.
Most PCs are still in the old style cases because they're cheap commodity items that commodity board designs and commodity parts are guaranteed to work with. They're the cheap, safe, familiar bet. Most of them aren't even designed to allow for the possibility that the various slots and bays will be filled. If you actually try to load them up as if they were serious workstations, they overheat.
The days when internal expandability was a necessary prerequisite are at least a decade behind us. IT professionals lost the last major battle to keep ethernet on external cards so they could be easily swapped out. Video accelerator chipsets are not optional. Sound is not optional. Networking is not optional. High-speed serial connectors are not optional. Parallel ports are... wait, parallel ports? What?! They're all integrated now, which is cheaper and more reliable anyway, and more in line with the general population's disinclination to crack open devices they don't understand to muck around in their innards.
Furthermore, since an ATX case and an ATX-compatible motherboard is the design equivalent of unconditional surrender and Apple is a design company, it's not clear that a computer built along those lines would just dilute the brand and sell even more poorly than the mini has. The only way to know for sure is to try, but I feel confident that it wouldn't fly.
What is becoming clear is that people like relating to devices as self-contained objects. Software has to function as an intuitive extension of the hardware, and the hardware has to get out of the way when it's possible, and be pleasant to the senses when it's not. The old personal computer design flies against that paradigm.
While I can appreciate style and design, there are plenty of pretty ATX case designs, and if Apple really wanted to, they could continue to use a custom motherboard and case like they do now with the Pro, but just use a desktop CPU/RAM, how they would handle the GPU, I don't know. They could use a standard video card, but the EFI/BIOS is the problem they are having now.
Integrated everything is fine, until something breaks - be it the ethernet port, USB, monitor. And also how some people don't like towers, I just don't like AIO computers - there's no flexibility or choice. If you don't like the monitor or glossy screen, that's what you are stuck with. If you want another HD or dvd drive, then you've got a couple external cases and power bricks taking up space, and I'm at that point now with my Mini.
As for the computer overheating when filling the slots up, what are you talking about? PCI cards take very little power and it's not hard to position the hard drive cage in front of the intake fan. There's no such problem of overheating, and noise is not a problem with 120mm case fans. Research case companies like Lian Li, Antec, Cooler Master, and you'll see some very nice case designs, even for Micro ATX.
While I can appreciate style and design, there are plenty of pretty ATX case designs, and if Apple really wanted to, they could continue to use a custom motherboard and case like they do now with the Pro, but just use a desktop CPU/RAM, how they would handle the GPU, I don't know. They could use a standard video card, but the EFI/BIOS is the problem they are having now.
That's just it. First of all if you go the *TX route you might as well go all the way. Second, nobody on Earth would know or even care whether Apple had a custom board, because Apple's strength is as a system integrator (this is why going ATX would be a surrender: design is not about making a pretty case). Third, EFI/BIOS isn't a problem, it's a feature. It just happens to be a feature that argues against adoption of a set of standards that gleefully grandfather in every power user's need since about 1978.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Integrated everything is fine, until something breaks
That battle's been lost already. You can now get motherboards for roughly the price that network cards used to command because of integrated everything. While people complain about the added cost of packaging for external devices, I distinctly remember paying a premium for the network/USB/FireWire card that was inevitably included with any product I intended to buy, just in case I didn't already have one (or a compatible one). I also remember the basic machines costing a fortune.
Also: with integrated everything the system vendor can thoroughly test and certify (or hell, write) the drivers for everything that ships with the machine, significantly improving overall system reliability and reducing the possibility of conflicts or shorts/spikes from broken or poorly inserted pieces of hardware, and; with integrated everything there are consistent hardware services--an API, if you will--in addition to the software API, which encourages both hardware and software developers to support those technologies.
SoC (system-on-chip) is already starting to appear at the low end and it's a simple matter of Moore's Law before it takes over. It will happen. It's the natural course of the technology that brought us multi-core CPUs. It's just a question of when. When it comes, it will make the systems as a whole much cheaper. On-die fabrics are far, far cheaper than motherboard traces. One package for all components is cheaper than one package per component. Hardwired connections are cheaper and more reliable than slots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
As for the computer overheating when filling the slots up, what are you talking about? PCI cards take very little power and it's not hard to position the hard drive cage in front of the intake fan. There's no such problem of overheating, and noise is not a problem with 120mm case fans. Research case companies like Lian Li, Antec, Cooler Master, and you'll see some very nice case designs, even for Micro ATX.
You're looking at research companies. I'm looking at cheap PCs and I'm not talking theory. Whether PCI cards take very little power (not all do--some of them require you to plug the card into the wall!) is one thing. Whether they succeed in blocking airflow is another. The cheap PCs are cheap precisely because the manufacturer got the cheapest of everything and had a bunch of robots assemble it. They didn't research a good case, or good fans, or tactful positioning of the hard drive. They needed to hit the $399 price point for the holidays, and they got whatever allowed them to hit that price point. The value of ATX to most manufacturers is that it is a commodity platform. They know full well that the people buying them don't even know what a PCI card is.
That's just it. First of all if you go the *TX route you might as well go all the way. Second, nobody on Earth would know or even care whether Apple had a custom board, because Apple's strength is as a system integrator (this is why going ATX would be a surrender: design is not about making a pretty case). Third, EFI/BIOS isn't a problem, it's a feature. It just happens to be a feature that argues against adoption of a set of standards that gleefully grandfather in every power user's need since about 1978.
That battle's been lost already. You can now get motherboards for roughly the price that network cards used to command because of integrated everything. While people complain about the added cost of packaging for external devices, I distinctly remember paying a premium for the network/USB/FireWire card that was inevitably included with any product I intended to buy, just in case I didn't already have one (or a compatible one). I also remember the basic machines costing a fortune.
Also: with integrated everything the system vendor can thoroughly test and certify (or hell, write) the drivers for everything that ships with the machine, significantly improving overall system reliability and reducing the possibility of conflicts or shorts/spikes from broken or poorly inserted pieces of hardware, and; with integrated everything there are consistent hardware services--an API, if you will--in addition to the software API, which encourages both hardware and software developers to support those technologies.
SoC (system-on-chip) is already starting to appear at the low end and it's a simple matter of Moore's Law before it takes over. It will happen. It's the natural course of the technology that brought us multi-core CPUs. It's just a question of when. When it comes, it will make the systems as a whole much cheaper. On-die fabrics are far, far cheaper than motherboard traces. One package for all components is cheaper than one package per component. Hardwired connections are cheaper and more reliable than slots.
You're looking at research companies. I'm looking at cheap PCs and I'm not talking theory. Whether PCI cards take very little power (not all do--some of them require you to plug the card into the wall!) is one thing. Whether they succeed in blocking airflow is another. The cheap PCs are cheap precisely because the manufacturer got the cheapest of everything and had a bunch of robots assemble it. They didn't research a good case, or good fans, or tactful positioning of the hard drive. They needed to hit the $399 price point for the holidays, and they got whatever allowed them to hit that price point. The value of ATX to most manufacturers is that it is a commodity platform,. They know full well that the people buying them don't even know what a PCI card is.
It's not even a question of how much the computer costs, it is just that the parts themselves are cheap - motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc, can all be had for under $150-200 each. Add a nice Nvidia 8600 for around $100-150, and nice case for about the same and so on, you could build a PC that would near the performance of the Mac Pro, for around $1000-1200. They all come out of the same Chinese/Taiwanese factories as Macs do too.
Tack on the Apple premium, stuff it in a Apple case, charge $1500-2000 for it. There has to be a market out there for a power user/pro that doesn't have $2500 to blow on the Pro, and perhaps is intrigued by the BYODKM factor of the Mini, but still wants a case that they can add an internal HD or TV tuner card, etc.
I have no idea why Dell is always brought up in Apple debates, they go after a completely different market segment. Either it's businesses that want a cheaper PC, with a decent warranty, or it's a budget computer. But Dells can also be customized to pretty much how ever the customer wants it, and priced accordingly. And there are other PC OEMs besides Dell.
Apple basically offers RAM and HD BTO, and rips people off in the process. And I find their warranties poor as well; in order to get good coverage on my Mini, I bought the APP, only because it uses non-standard PC parts.
So I think part of the problem for myself, is I am used to building my own PC's (and I've never had issues with stability), but seeing as how parts have gotten cheaper, I can see how Apple can justify charging $2500 for the Mac Pro, when it isn't there. It's a good system, but they're skimping on the HD, RAM, and video. And I also feel the same about my Mini, even though I went ahead and got it at the beginning of last month - its a good system, but a poor value.
It's not even a question of how much the computer costs, it is just that the parts themselves are cheap - motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc, can all be had for under $150-200 each. Add a nice Nvidia 8600 for around $100-150, and nice case for about the same and so on, you could build a PC that would near the performance of the Mac Pro, for around $1000-1200. They all come out of the same Chinese/Taiwanese factories as Macs do too.
Tack on the Apple premium, stuff it in a Apple case, charge $1500-2000 for it. There has to be a market out there for a power user/pro that doesn't have $2500 to blow on the Pro, and perhaps is intrigued by the BYODKM factor of the Mini, but still wants a case that they can add an internal HD or TV tuner card, etc.
Since you can just whip these parts together, why should Apple do it? The thing about commodity markets is that you can't just "tack on the Apple premium." Jean-Louis Gassée tried to tack on an otherwise unjustified "Apple Premium" and got his ass handed to him. If you're using the same parts everyone else is using, the only variable you have to compete on is price. Otherwise, Dell or HP will roll out the same machine without your premium. You can get away with charging a premium by designing a whole that is that much greater than the sum of its parts. There's not really any way to get there with ATX-standard parts in the mid-tower price range.
And what happens to EFI? How can Apple distinguish their products by embracing new standards if they have a backward-looking member of the hardware lineup? If OS X ran on this thing, aren't they de facto making it run on every modern PC? Sure, the xMac people might like that, but Apple would not. Their control over the whole widget is what allows them to do the cool things that they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
I have no idea why Dell is always brought up in Apple debates, they go after a completely different market segment.
Specifically, this market segment. Since Apple moved to Intel an xMac is a PC, except for that little issue with EFI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
So I think part of the problem for myself, is I am used to building my own PC's (and I've never had issues with stability), but seeing as how parts have gotten cheaper, I can see how Apple can justify charging $2500 for the Mac Pro, when it isn't there. It's a good system, but they're skimping on the HD, RAM, and video. And I also feel the same about my Mini, even though I went ahead and got it at the beginning of last month - its a good system, but a poor value.
It's a completely different approach, and it does have its drawbacks. What Apple is trying to do, broadly, is pretty much the opposite of what you're used to: they're trying to reduce the computer to its interface. Look at an iMac. Yes, it's pretty. But if you use one for a while you realize that your hands are on the keyboard and mouse and your eyes are on the screen, which seems to be floating in space, and that's all there is to it. The iPhone? Same thing. Except for that one button, the whole face of the machine is its screen. The 'books? As close as components and basic body mechanics allow. Since the mini is everything but the interface it's designed to quietly and inconspicuously stay off to the side (silence is another part of Apple's quest). One reason for this is that in order to justify what it does, Apple needs to offer machines that you simply can't make yourself. Happily for them, they've found a way to do that by making machines that people want.
You might be able to get close to an average Mac Pro configuration for a reasonable percentage of its price, but how common is support for 16GB of fast RAM? That's no mean feat as far as engineering goes. And yes, Apple commands a pretty fat profit margin on it too.
You can now get motherboards for roughly the price that network cards used to command ...
I could be wrong, but I don't think I can buy an Apple motherboard. I believe I'd have to send in the computer to Apple who would charge me to install a mother board that more than likely costs close to the price of a new computer. I could be wrong though.
Quote:
guinness
I have no idea why Dell is always brought up in Apple debates, they go after a completely different market segment.
I disagree, clearly they go after the same market as Apple, I get bombarded by Dell ads on TV and a week doesn't go by that I don't get a Dell flyer in the newspaper touting Dell's ease of use with family oriented digital media. It's just that Dell has many more target markets than Apple, way more.
Quote:
mdriftmeyer
EFI is being adopted by Vista in 2008. This will be standard this year.
Apple benefits by having a broader spectrum of GPU.
Apple only sells one computer model that could benefit from this. Are you suggesting that this may change, because Jobs has pointedly stated that it is an AIO world.
Quote:
Amorph...
And yes, Apple commands a pretty fat profit margin on it too.
And a case could be made that their margins might be higher if not limited to laptop parts being used in a desktop computer.
why can't the mini move to matx with a x16 pci-e + a x1 or x4 pci-e slot?
The mini is a bad buy right now $600 for 1gb of laptop ram + gma 950 that is way out date + a slow laptop hdd + cdrw / dvd? come on even $400 systems have a dvdrw.
apple should at least put a low end video card in the mini and have come with a mouse and keyboard no they want you to pay $100 of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I can buy an Apple motherboard. I believe I'd have to send in the computer to Apple who would charge me to install a mother board that more than likely costs close to the price of a new computer. I could be wrong though.
I was talking about component prices generally, not Apple parts. I remember $100 Ethernet cards; even if you don't count inflation, you can find whole motherboards for around that price now. If you do count inflation, you can find nice ones. As the various parts of the board become more and more consolidated and more and more compact the price will only continue to go down... and Apple will continue to charge a fortune for a board that probably costs them $100.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag
I disagree, clearly they go after the same market as Apple, I get bombarded by Dell ads on TV and a week doesn't go by that I don't get a Dell flyer in the newspaper touting Dell's ease of use with family oriented digital media. It's just that Dell has many more target markets than Apple, way more.
Oh they try, but except for the odd crack at an AIO their machines are repurposed enterprise desktops, with only the most cursory nod to whatever use they're being sold for at any given moment. The only exception within their lineup is Alienware, but Apple has no incentive at all to compete with them: They could release a fire-breathing gaming Mac tomorrow so that you could run... what? Games on the Mac sell by the thousands, or the tens of thousands if the title hits a home run. That's nothing, especially at the relatively low prices that game titles command (relative to, say, professional apps that sell in the same quantities). Apple can justify keeping casual gamers happy, but the market's not there to sustain an enthusiast platform. It's too small by three orders of magnitude.
I'm not happy about that state of affairs, but there it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag
And a case could be made that their margins might be higher if not limited to laptop parts being used in a desktop computer.
The Mac Pro, the machine I made that crack about, doesn't use laptop parts so far as I know. The machines that do would probably not sell as well if Apple compromised them to fit in desktop parts. As it is Apple didn't quite pull off the trick of stuffing laptop parts into the 20" iMac.
Comments
There is no heavy or light virtualization by Intel. The chip either has Virtualization support or it doesn't.
Intel has continually been updating its visualization technology in part trying to extend it all the way out to the I/O chips. There is still much to be done as Video hasn't been virtualized yet.
In any event the point stands as this is just an example. Technology is being added to the processors and chip sets that is not available on older platforms. Some of this technologies can have an impact on what your system is capable of doing.
I look at it this way if you purchased a machine that can be reasonably updated, processor wise, a year or two down the road you purchased an underpowered system at the start. Especially in the last couple of years where technology has changed so rapidly.
Dave
Lets say that your pc starts to be outdated after 2-3 years. What would you replace?
Ok say i have a p4 2.6 ghz a coupple of years old. I want to "upgrade" it. I cant get one of those new quad core2's, because my motherboard doesn't support it. Or my power supply.
Ok, then i want new graphics. In order to play the new games you need nvidea 8xxx series. My current Powersupply would totally NOT support the power consumption of these cards, and my motherboard would probably not support PCIexpress.
Ok, so why didn't i upgrade it a bit earlier, with slightly older parts? Because at that point the computer was still pretty much up to date, and could play the new games.
That is the case with upgrading.
When your pc needs an upgrade, it is probably time to shift every component in the system. I mean if you buy a computer today, you would want blueraydrive, bigger harddisk, SSD maybe, quad core PCU, faster RAM, faster interfaces, and the newest generation of wireless etc etc.
It is simply overated how much you could benefit from replacing different parts in a system as opposed to buying a new system, and Apple understands this.
The days when internal expandability was a necessary prerequisite are at least a decade behind us. IT professionals lost the last major battle to keep ethernet on external cards so they could be easily swapped out. Video accelerator chipsets are not optional. Sound is not optional. Networking is not optional. High-speed serial connectors are not optional. Parallel ports are... wait, parallel ports? What?! They're all integrated now, which is cheaper and more reliable anyway, and more in line with the general population's disinclination to crack open devices they don't understand to muck around in their innards.
Furthermore, since an ATX case and an ATX-compatible motherboard is the design equivalent of unconditional surrender and Apple is a design company, it's not clear that a computer built along those lines would just dilute the brand and sell even more poorly than the mini has. The only way to know for sure is to try, but I feel confident that it wouldn't fly.
What is becoming clear is that people like relating to devices as self-contained objects. Software has to function as an intuitive extension of the hardware, and the hardware has to get out of the way when it's possible, and be pleasant to the senses when it's not. The old personal computer design flies against that paradigm.
Most PCs are still in the old style cases because they're cheap commodity items that commodity board designs and commodity parts are guaranteed to work with. They're the cheap, safe, familiar bet. Most of them aren't even designed to allow for the possibility that the various slots and bays will be filled. If you actually try to load them up as if they were serious workstations, they overheat.
The days when internal expandability was a necessary prerequisite are at least a decade behind us. IT professionals lost the last major battle to keep ethernet on external cards so they could be easily swapped out. Video accelerator chipsets are not optional. Sound is not optional. Networking is not optional. High-speed serial connectors are not optional. Parallel ports are... wait, parallel ports? What?! They're all integrated now, which is cheaper and more reliable anyway, and more in line with the general population's disinclination to crack open devices they don't understand to muck around in their innards.
Furthermore, since an ATX case and an ATX-compatible motherboard is the design equivalent of unconditional surrender and Apple is a design company, it's not clear that a computer built along those lines would just dilute the brand and sell even more poorly than the mini has. The only way to know for sure is to try, but I feel confident that it wouldn't fly.
What is becoming clear is that people like relating to devices as self-contained objects. Software has to function as an intuitive extension of the hardware, and the hardware has to get out of the way when it's possible, and be pleasant to the senses when it's not. The old personal computer design flies against that paradigm.
While I can appreciate style and design, there are plenty of pretty ATX case designs, and if Apple really wanted to, they could continue to use a custom motherboard and case like they do now with the Pro, but just use a desktop CPU/RAM, how they would handle the GPU, I don't know. They could use a standard video card, but the EFI/BIOS is the problem they are having now.
Integrated everything is fine, until something breaks - be it the ethernet port, USB, monitor. And also how some people don't like towers, I just don't like AIO computers - there's no flexibility or choice. If you don't like the monitor or glossy screen, that's what you are stuck with. If you want another HD or dvd drive, then you've got a couple external cases and power bricks taking up space, and I'm at that point now with my Mini.
As for the computer overheating when filling the slots up, what are you talking about? PCI cards take very little power and it's not hard to position the hard drive cage in front of the intake fan. There's no such problem of overheating, and noise is not a problem with 120mm case fans. Research case companies like Lian Li, Antec, Cooler Master, and you'll see some very nice case designs, even for Micro ATX.
While I can appreciate style and design, there are plenty of pretty ATX case designs, and if Apple really wanted to, they could continue to use a custom motherboard and case like they do now with the Pro, but just use a desktop CPU/RAM, how they would handle the GPU, I don't know. They could use a standard video card, but the EFI/BIOS is the problem they are having now.
That's just it. First of all if you go the *TX route you might as well go all the way. Second, nobody on Earth would know or even care whether Apple had a custom board, because Apple's strength is as a system integrator (this is why going ATX would be a surrender: design is not about making a pretty case). Third, EFI/BIOS isn't a problem, it's a feature. It just happens to be a feature that argues against adoption of a set of standards that gleefully grandfather in every power user's need since about 1978.
Integrated everything is fine, until something breaks
That battle's been lost already. You can now get motherboards for roughly the price that network cards used to command because of integrated everything. While people complain about the added cost of packaging for external devices, I distinctly remember paying a premium for the network/USB/FireWire card that was inevitably included with any product I intended to buy, just in case I didn't already have one (or a compatible one). I also remember the basic machines costing a fortune.
Also: with integrated everything the system vendor can thoroughly test and certify (or hell, write) the drivers for everything that ships with the machine, significantly improving overall system reliability and reducing the possibility of conflicts or shorts/spikes from broken or poorly inserted pieces of hardware, and; with integrated everything there are consistent hardware services--an API, if you will--in addition to the software API, which encourages both hardware and software developers to support those technologies.
SoC (system-on-chip) is already starting to appear at the low end and it's a simple matter of Moore's Law before it takes over. It will happen. It's the natural course of the technology that brought us multi-core CPUs. It's just a question of when. When it comes, it will make the systems as a whole much cheaper. On-die fabrics are far, far cheaper than motherboard traces. One package for all components is cheaper than one package per component. Hardwired connections are cheaper and more reliable than slots.
As for the computer overheating when filling the slots up, what are you talking about? PCI cards take very little power and it's not hard to position the hard drive cage in front of the intake fan. There's no such problem of overheating, and noise is not a problem with 120mm case fans. Research case companies like Lian Li, Antec, Cooler Master, and you'll see some very nice case designs, even for Micro ATX.
You're looking at research companies. I'm looking at cheap PCs and I'm not talking theory. Whether PCI cards take very little power (not all do--some of them require you to plug the card into the wall!) is one thing. Whether they succeed in blocking airflow is another. The cheap PCs are cheap precisely because the manufacturer got the cheapest of everything and had a bunch of robots assemble it. They didn't research a good case, or good fans, or tactful positioning of the hard drive. They needed to hit the $399 price point for the holidays, and they got whatever allowed them to hit that price point. The value of ATX to most manufacturers is that it is a commodity platform. They know full well that the people buying them don't even know what a PCI card is.
That's just it. First of all if you go the *TX route you might as well go all the way. Second, nobody on Earth would know or even care whether Apple had a custom board, because Apple's strength is as a system integrator (this is why going ATX would be a surrender: design is not about making a pretty case). Third, EFI/BIOS isn't a problem, it's a feature. It just happens to be a feature that argues against adoption of a set of standards that gleefully grandfather in every power user's need since about 1978.
That battle's been lost already. You can now get motherboards for roughly the price that network cards used to command because of integrated everything. While people complain about the added cost of packaging for external devices, I distinctly remember paying a premium for the network/USB/FireWire card that was inevitably included with any product I intended to buy, just in case I didn't already have one (or a compatible one). I also remember the basic machines costing a fortune.
Also: with integrated everything the system vendor can thoroughly test and certify (or hell, write) the drivers for everything that ships with the machine, significantly improving overall system reliability and reducing the possibility of conflicts or shorts/spikes from broken or poorly inserted pieces of hardware, and; with integrated everything there are consistent hardware services--an API, if you will--in addition to the software API, which encourages both hardware and software developers to support those technologies.
SoC (system-on-chip) is already starting to appear at the low end and it's a simple matter of Moore's Law before it takes over. It will happen. It's the natural course of the technology that brought us multi-core CPUs. It's just a question of when. When it comes, it will make the systems as a whole much cheaper. On-die fabrics are far, far cheaper than motherboard traces. One package for all components is cheaper than one package per component. Hardwired connections are cheaper and more reliable than slots.
You're looking at research companies. I'm looking at cheap PCs and I'm not talking theory. Whether PCI cards take very little power (not all do--some of them require you to plug the card into the wall!) is one thing. Whether they succeed in blocking airflow is another. The cheap PCs are cheap precisely because the manufacturer got the cheapest of everything and had a bunch of robots assemble it. They didn't research a good case, or good fans, or tactful positioning of the hard drive. They needed to hit the $399 price point for the holidays, and they got whatever allowed them to hit that price point. The value of ATX to most manufacturers is that it is a commodity platform,. They know full well that the people buying them don't even know what a PCI card is.
It's not even a question of how much the computer costs, it is just that the parts themselves are cheap - motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc, can all be had for under $150-200 each. Add a nice Nvidia 8600 for around $100-150, and nice case for about the same and so on, you could build a PC that would near the performance of the Mac Pro, for around $1000-1200. They all come out of the same Chinese/Taiwanese factories as Macs do too.
Tack on the Apple premium, stuff it in a Apple case, charge $1500-2000 for it. There has to be a market out there for a power user/pro that doesn't have $2500 to blow on the Pro, and perhaps is intrigued by the BYODKM factor of the Mini, but still wants a case that they can add an internal HD or TV tuner card, etc.
I have no idea why Dell is always brought up in Apple debates, they go after a completely different market segment. Either it's businesses that want a cheaper PC, with a decent warranty, or it's a budget computer. But Dells can also be customized to pretty much how ever the customer wants it, and priced accordingly. And there are other PC OEMs besides Dell.
Apple basically offers RAM and HD BTO, and rips people off in the process. And I find their warranties poor as well; in order to get good coverage on my Mini, I bought the APP, only because it uses non-standard PC parts.
So I think part of the problem for myself, is I am used to building my own PC's (and I've never had issues with stability), but seeing as how parts have gotten cheaper, I can see how Apple can justify charging $2500 for the Mac Pro, when it isn't there. It's a good system, but they're skimping on the HD, RAM, and video. And I also feel the same about my Mini, even though I went ahead and got it at the beginning of last month - its a good system, but a poor value.
It's not even a question of how much the computer costs, it is just that the parts themselves are cheap - motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc, can all be had for under $150-200 each. Add a nice Nvidia 8600 for around $100-150, and nice case for about the same and so on, you could build a PC that would near the performance of the Mac Pro, for around $1000-1200. They all come out of the same Chinese/Taiwanese factories as Macs do too.
Tack on the Apple premium, stuff it in a Apple case, charge $1500-2000 for it. There has to be a market out there for a power user/pro that doesn't have $2500 to blow on the Pro, and perhaps is intrigued by the BYODKM factor of the Mini, but still wants a case that they can add an internal HD or TV tuner card, etc.
Since you can just whip these parts together, why should Apple do it? The thing about commodity markets is that you can't just "tack on the Apple premium." Jean-Louis Gassée tried to tack on an otherwise unjustified "Apple Premium" and got his ass handed to him. If you're using the same parts everyone else is using, the only variable you have to compete on is price. Otherwise, Dell or HP will roll out the same machine without your premium. You can get away with charging a premium by designing a whole that is that much greater than the sum of its parts. There's not really any way to get there with ATX-standard parts in the mid-tower price range.
And what happens to EFI? How can Apple distinguish their products by embracing new standards if they have a backward-looking member of the hardware lineup? If OS X ran on this thing, aren't they de facto making it run on every modern PC? Sure, the xMac people might like that, but Apple would not. Their control over the whole widget is what allows them to do the cool things that they do.
I have no idea why Dell is always brought up in Apple debates, they go after a completely different market segment.
Specifically, this market segment. Since Apple moved to Intel an xMac is a PC, except for that little issue with EFI.
So I think part of the problem for myself, is I am used to building my own PC's (and I've never had issues with stability), but seeing as how parts have gotten cheaper, I can see how Apple can justify charging $2500 for the Mac Pro, when it isn't there. It's a good system, but they're skimping on the HD, RAM, and video. And I also feel the same about my Mini, even though I went ahead and got it at the beginning of last month - its a good system, but a poor value.
It's a completely different approach, and it does have its drawbacks. What Apple is trying to do, broadly, is pretty much the opposite of what you're used to: they're trying to reduce the computer to its interface. Look at an iMac. Yes, it's pretty. But if you use one for a while you realize that your hands are on the keyboard and mouse and your eyes are on the screen, which seems to be floating in space, and that's all there is to it. The iPhone? Same thing. Except for that one button, the whole face of the machine is its screen. The 'books? As close as components and basic body mechanics allow. Since the mini is everything but the interface it's designed to quietly and inconspicuously stay off to the side (silence is another part of Apple's quest). One reason for this is that in order to justify what it does, Apple needs to offer machines that you simply can't make yourself. Happily for them, they've found a way to do that by making machines that people want.
You might be able to get close to an average Mac Pro configuration for a reasonable percentage of its price, but how common is support for 16GB of fast RAM? That's no mean feat as far as engineering goes. And yes, Apple commands a pretty fat profit margin on it too.
Apple benefits by having a broader spectrum of GPU.
...
You can now get motherboards for roughly the price that network cards used to command ...
I could be wrong, but I don't think I can buy an Apple motherboard. I believe I'd have to send in the computer to Apple who would charge me to install a mother board that more than likely costs close to the price of a new computer. I could be wrong though.
guinness
I have no idea why Dell is always brought up in Apple debates, they go after a completely different market segment.
I disagree, clearly they go after the same market as Apple, I get bombarded by Dell ads on TV and a week doesn't go by that I don't get a Dell flyer in the newspaper touting Dell's ease of use with family oriented digital media. It's just that Dell has many more target markets than Apple, way more.
mdriftmeyer
EFI is being adopted by Vista in 2008. This will be standard this year.
Apple benefits by having a broader spectrum of GPU.
Apple only sells one computer model that could benefit from this. Are you suggesting that this may change, because Jobs has pointedly stated that it is an AIO world.
Amorph...
And yes, Apple commands a pretty fat profit margin on it too.
And a case could be made that their margins might be higher if not limited to laptop parts being used in a desktop computer.
The mini is a bad buy right now $600 for 1gb of laptop ram + gma 950 that is way out date + a slow laptop hdd + cdrw / dvd? come on even $400 systems have a dvdrw.
apple should at least put a low end video card in the mini and have come with a mouse and keyboard no they want you to pay $100 of them.
I could be wrong, but I don't think I can buy an Apple motherboard. I believe I'd have to send in the computer to Apple who would charge me to install a mother board that more than likely costs close to the price of a new computer. I could be wrong though.
I was talking about component prices generally, not Apple parts. I remember $100 Ethernet cards; even if you don't count inflation, you can find whole motherboards for around that price now. If you do count inflation, you can find nice ones. As the various parts of the board become more and more consolidated and more and more compact the price will only continue to go down... and Apple will continue to charge a fortune for a board that probably costs them $100.
I disagree, clearly they go after the same market as Apple, I get bombarded by Dell ads on TV and a week doesn't go by that I don't get a Dell flyer in the newspaper touting Dell's ease of use with family oriented digital media. It's just that Dell has many more target markets than Apple, way more.
Oh they try, but except for the odd crack at an AIO their machines are repurposed enterprise desktops, with only the most cursory nod to whatever use they're being sold for at any given moment. The only exception within their lineup is Alienware, but Apple has no incentive at all to compete with them: They could release a fire-breathing gaming Mac tomorrow so that you could run... what? Games on the Mac sell by the thousands, or the tens of thousands if the title hits a home run. That's nothing, especially at the relatively low prices that game titles command (relative to, say, professional apps that sell in the same quantities). Apple can justify keeping casual gamers happy, but the market's not there to sustain an enthusiast platform. It's too small by three orders of magnitude.
I'm not happy about that state of affairs, but there it is.
And a case could be made that their margins might be higher if not limited to laptop parts being used in a desktop computer.
The Mac Pro, the machine I made that crack about, doesn't use laptop parts so far as I know. The machines that do would probably not sell as well if Apple compromised them to fit in desktop parts. As it is Apple didn't quite pull off the trick of stuffing laptop parts into the 20" iMac.