These days, SE K800i 3G phones I can tether to my Mac are going for £70 PAYG. Add a £10 a month SIM to get free text and some free calls + £7.50 for 'unlimited' data as and when I need it. Next to spending £269 for an iPhone and being locked into a shit contract for 18 months, I know which one I'd pick.
From what it appears you are saying with pay as you go costs 87.50 pounds vs 35 pounds under 18 month contract. How many minutes and text does that generally get you?
See the T-Mobile flext price plans. Rather than have so many minutes of free calls and so many free texts per month. You get an allowance of a certain value, which you can use on either calls or texts.
So what is the number of combined calls+texts under your allowance?
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I think that came under the better interface. Anyway it's not as good as the Internet experience on my Macbook - which I can use with the Nokia.
Yes of course. But like the rational for have a camera phone, you ain't going to be lugging your Macbook with you everywhere you go either.
I whole heartedly agree that cell-phone as broadband modem is a pretty big feature, especially for business users.
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Price is the killer. It's not competitive as it is.
It depends on what Apple wants. They fully know how big a factor price is for unit sales. If they want more unit sales, then they'll tweak the prices and the phone.
I don't think that's going to always be true in the UK at least. Here, about half of phone subscribers use PAYG SIMs, not contract. Phones have got good enough and cheap enough now that the economics of contracts just aren't sensible for many people unless there's some business package for their work. The iPhone isn't likely going to be a free handout from work either.
Do you have any evidence that this is so? For example, N95 sales breakdowns? Prada sales breakdowns?
It really doesn't jive with my perception of the market. People will go for the cheapest option and will accept a binding contract to get it. The only way your situation wins is that it will be cheaper than the free/cheap phone costs versus unlocked phone + whatever deal they can get, or that the carriers don't set competitive contracts.
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Apple seem to have neither caught the shift in contract to PAYG in the consumer marketplace, or realised that contract phones are usually free and sell to people who balk at the up front cost of phones. As usual I'd suspect Apple Europe of just not getting it, like they did with AppleTV which just wasn't even worth launching here.
Nope. I think they are perfectly happy with the exclusive carrier deals plus revenue sharing. That is, they'd rather sell fewer units for higher revenues than sell a lot of units at lower profit margins. Obviously you don't want to see too few and there is a floor in unit sales before it becomes bad business. What that number is, I don't know. They have a lot of room for tweaking as well.
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These days, SE K800i 3G phones I can tether to my Mac are going for £70 PAYG. Add a £10 a month SIM to get free text and some free calls + £7.50 for 'unlimited' data as and when I need it. Next to spending £269 for an iPhone and being locked into a shit contract for 18 months, I know which one I'd pick.
What are you getting for £10/month for number of calls. What's the limit on the text? What is the data limit for the £7.50? £17.50 is a pretty good deal for voice and data. I should like at pay-as-you-go SIM deals here to see if they are competitive.
I for one an confused by the premise of the story.
Orange's prediction was between 50-100K units. And as far as I can tell. 70K seems roughly in that range. This isn't too shabby when you remember there are no Apple stores in France. And there is no Carphone Warehouse either. The only retail outlet is Orange shops.
If they sold the iPhone in FNAC it might do better.
C.
PS. If you are French and happen to be the CEO of FNAC. PLEASE BRING FNAC to the UK!!
I know you are French and all, but nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing an army of FNAC staff arrive in the UK and kick the arses of Curry's Digital into the North Sea. Amen.
I for one an confused by the premise of the story.
Orange's prediction was between 50-100K units. And as far as I can tell. 70K seems roughly in that range. This isn't too shabby when you remember there are no Apple stores in France. And there is no Carphone Warehouse either. The only retail outlet is Orange shops.
If they sold the iPhone in FNAC it might do better.
C.
PS. If you are French and happen to be the CEO of FNAC. PLEASE BRING FNAC to the UK!!
I know you are French and all, but nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing an army of FNAC staff arrive in the UK and kick the arses of Curry's Digital into the North Sea. Amen.
The original Orange prediction was 100K. They added the 50-100K prediction as they announced the 70K sales figures
It really depends on what Apple wants to do, not necessarilly what you think they are doing. Their target is 1% (10m units) of the market in 2008. Success there could mean 7m iPhones in the USA, 2m in Europe, and 1m in Asia. That's probably doable depending on 2008 contract prices.
Seems like a reach, really. US Q3 sales were 1.1 million iPhone sold, or a 4.4 million per year pace.
Good, but not enough to reach that 10 million sold goal of Apple's if Euro and Asian sales suck. \
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I haven't bought one either, but I'm waiting on 16 GB storage and UMTS/HSPA. [i.e. 3G]
Ditto for me, plus I'd want a carrier other than ATT.
Seems like a reach, really. US Q3 sales were 1.1 million iPhone sold, or a 4.4 million per year pace.
Good, but not enough to reach that 10 million sold goal of Apple's if Euro and Asian sales suck. \
Well, it depends on 2008 contract prices, no? I for one am thinking that an iPhone nano will come out in Summer 2008 at half the current iPhone price, while the new version will be a good revision. I've always thought that they will reduce prices too, which already happened in the USA and it'll likely happen in Europe. Additionally, Apple is only in 3 European markets currently. There's the entirety of Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Southern Europe and Spain/Portugal to go.
So, they've got a lot of work left to do. If all they have is the one model, it's going to be tough at the current prices, especially for Europe. Who knows what it would be like in Asia. But it is possible as long as they improve the phone and have correct prices.
Also, Q3 unit sales should not be used as an average metric for yearly sales. It will be seasonal, and I wouldn't be surprised if Q4 sales were double that of Q3 sales. 4m in 2007 isn't out of the question. I can easily see Jobs announcing 4m at MWSF.
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Ditto for me, plus I'd want a carrier other than ATT.
In America, it doesn't really matter which carrier you have unless you are geographically challenged.
In America, it doesn't really matter which carrier you have unless you are geographically challenged.
"Geographically challenged" covers a much broader area than you let on. That, and some areas get better reception for some carriers based on how far a tower is from your home or business.
So what is the number of combined calls+texts under your allowance?
Depends on the cost of the calls/texts you make. 1 text costs 8.5p, calls 17p per minute. The allowance per month on my price plan (Flext20) is £34. See:
Well, it depends on 2008 contract prices, no? I for one am thinking that an iPhone nano will come out in Summer 2008 at half the current iPhone price, while the new version will be a good revision. I've always thought that they will reduce prices too
There's a lot of "hopefullys" in that comment. \
What's funny is that a lot of ppl here have commented that there'd be no point in an iPhone Nano, as it would be bad to have a smaller screen than the current 3.5". In any case, an iPhone Nano is pure speculation at this point. Ditto additional price drops on the current model in the near term... it just had a huge price drop only 4 months ago.
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Also, Q3 unit sales should not be used as an average metric for yearly sales. It will be seasonal, and I wouldn't be surprised if Q4 sales were double that of Q3 sales. 4m in 2007 isn't out of the question. I can easily see Jobs announcing 4m at MWSF.
Q4 sales might be significantly higher than Q3... then again, they may not, as Q3 sales include the leading edge of the early adopter wave, Q4, not so much. And regardless of how good Q4 sales are, what of Q1 and Q2? Can't count on blowout holidays sales in May, after all.
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In America, it doesn't really matter which carrier you have unless you are geographically challenged.
Completely untrue. Examine things like carrier churn rates (i.e. how many customers leave a carrier per month), JD Power surveys, Consumer Reports, etc. You'll find that carriers do indeed vary in quality quite a bit.
Take my area, for example. Verizon is great here, T-Mobile's not bad, ATT and Sprint are mediocre to bad, and MetroPCS is kind of a joke. Meanwhile, in inland South Carolina where my brother's going to grad school, Alltel is the best, Verizon second, and everyone else is not really worth having.
It varies region by region, but no, all carriers are not the same.
Orange discusses unlocked iPhones, sales goals for France (Updated)
By David Chartier | Published: November 27, 2007 - 10:04AM CT
As France's Orange prepares to begin selling the iPhone on Wednesday, its CEO, Didier Lombard, unveiled some details and a lofty sales goal in an interview with Europe 1 radio. By the end of the year, Orange hopes to sell 100,000 iPhones, though Didier wasn't clear on whether that figured includes the unlocked iPhones that French law requires of Apple.
Reuters reports the same thing, also on the 27th:
UPDATE 2-Fr Telecom sees near 100,000 iPhone sales by year end
Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:55am EST
Orange will offer an unlocked i-Phone at a price "significantly lower" than the 999 euros ($1,485) proposed by T-Mobile in Germany, Didier Lombard, France Telecom's chief executive, told Europe 1 radio in an interview on Tuesday.
He predicted 100,000 sales by the end of the year, a projection which analyst Carolina Milanesi of research group Gartner called "reasonable".
So they missed their goal by about one-third (100k goal vs 70k actually sold). Not a total disaster, but it does show that iPhone sales are soft in Europe... especially considering that France seems to be the strongest of the Euro launch areas.
Frankly, I'm even more concerned about the UK and Germany.
Well yes. We are trying to predict the future here. Even a proponent of the pessimistic viewpoint - not meeting the projected unit sales - must use "hopefully". No one can predict the future with such assuredness. We'd be more confident if we had Apple's market research and market strategy in hand, but alas we don't.
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What's funny is that a lot of ppl here have commented that there'd be no point in an iPhone Nano, as it would be bad to have a smaller screen than the current 3.5". In any case, an iPhone Nano is pure speculation at this point. Ditto additional price drops on the current model in the near term... it just had a huge price drop only 4 months ago.
It doesn't have a price drop in Europe yet. iPhone nano is pure speculation, but it's good speculation. It's a probable event, unlike say, Apple ressurecting the "Newton" brand or producing a cell phone with Windows Mobile or a Mac OS X update with Windows app binary support.
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Q4 sales might be significantly higher than Q3... then again, they may not, as Q3 sales include the leading edge of the early adopter wave, Q4, not so much. And regardless of how good Q4 sales are, what of Q1 and Q2? Can't count on blowout holidays sales in May, after all.
I think the early adoptor phase is over. It was over within the first month. In regards to Q1 and Q2, if it follows iPod sales trends from yesteryear, it would have increasing sales every quarter with Q4 being the exception where it should be about double Q3. Also, for Q1 and Q2, Apple can count on revised hardware (both minor and major) and revised software to continue to drive sales.
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Completely untrue. Examine things like carrier churn rates (i.e. how many customers leave a carrier per month), JD Power surveys, Consumer Reports, etc. You'll find that carriers do indeed vary in quality quite a bit.
My comment was about the overall quality of service (not radio reception) from the carriers. When the industry is already bad, variability among the different companies don't matter much. Apple's choice of ATT as an exclusive provider speaks more to them wanting the iPhone to be a niche product for at least until 2008 rather than trying to make it a popular product available on every carrier in the USA. The price alone should tell you that also.
If there is a geographical reason why one's reception is better than the other, than yup, Apple is willingly giving up those markets. If the big four are providing equal coverage in an area, and you're saying company service matters, then I'm skeptical.
While I am totally happy with my iPhone. The deal you mention might be good for my daughter.
Can you provide details?
I'm on Orange PAYG. If you top up at least £10 a month they give you unlimited text evenings and weekends. If you top up more, unlimited all the time. I rarely spend that much though.
A month on Orange World data is £7.50. It's 'unlimited' but has a fair usage policy. I've abused it many a time and not been kicked off.
Try http://www.onecompare.com/ btw for comparing phone deals. IME, PAYG is better for kids as they can't go mad!
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
From what it appears you are saying with pay as you go costs 87.50 pounds vs 35 pounds under 18 month contract. How many minutes and text does that generally get you?
No. The K800i costs £70 outright, one time cost. SIM is as above. Texts cost 10p each, calls vary. You don't get free anything - it's PAYG. You do get rewards however for topping up regularly and being a long standing customer.
So, I'd expect a year would cost me £280. That's only £10 more than the iPhone costs before I've even turned it on and I'd get 3G and a decent camera.
I use PAYG SIMs for a number of other reasons. I've a business line which is almost always incoming only. I use an old T610i and a PAYG SIM. It ends up costing me about £20 a year. PAYG SIMs are great value if you never phone anyone.
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Originally Posted by THT
Do you have any evidence that this is so? For example, N95 sales breakdowns? Prada sales breakdowns?
I'm sure I've read the PAYG v contract split somewhere but Google is failing me.
iPhone nano is pure speculation, but it's good speculation. It's a probable event
It's not really a probable event, unless you believe that the iPhone is "Just like the iPod". But for good or ill, there are big differences between the music player market and the cellphone market.
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I think the early adoptor phase is over. It was over within the first month.
Even if that's true, and we really don't have anything other than your opinion to go on regarding that, it'd still affect Q3 sales quite significantly.
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In regards to Q1 and Q2, if it follows iPod sales trends from yesteryear
Forget the iPod. Its a very different market.
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Also, for Q1 and Q2, Apple can count on revised hardware (both minor and major) and revised software to continue to drive sales.
Revised software in that timeframe is likely, revised hardware, not really. Best estimates put a new iPhone (3G) in a mid- to late '08 timeframe.
While I personally would LOVE it if revised hardware showed up during Q1 or Q2, I am not holding my breath.
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My comment was about the overall quality of service (not radio reception) from the carriers.
As was mine. Churn/customer loyalty is affected by more than just reception (customer service, phone quality and selection, billing issues, etc. etc. all play a part), plus there are national surveys on categories separate from reception/call quality, such as customer service/customer care.
And yes, in those surveys, the results show the carriers differing in quality, just as in the reception/call quality surveys.
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When the industry is already bad, variability among the different companies don't matter much.
The industry is bad in some ways (I could give you a list), but that does not mean that all carriers are equally bad, nor does it mean that they are equally bad across all regions. And, in fact, there are some carriers in some regions who are actually quite good. I've been with my current carrier for several years now, wouldn't change for the world.
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Apple's choice of ATT as an exclusive provider speaks more to them wanting the iPhone to be a niche product for at least until 2008 rather than trying to make it a popular product available on every carrier in the USA.
Nah. Apple went the exclusive carrier route because they wanted a partner who'd be very focused on marketing and promoting the iPhone, and who'd make changes to their network that would allow certain iPhone features to happen that couldn't otherwise, such as visual voicemail. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, they wanted someone who'd be willing to agree to an unprecedented-in-the-wireless-world revenue sharing deal.
Apple wanted a certain deal, and they had to give exclusivity in order to get it.
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The price alone should tell you that also.
Not really. There are more expensive phones out there than the iPhone which are not exclusive nor particularly 'niche'.
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If there is a geographical reason why one's reception is better than the other, than yup, Apple is willingly giving up those markets.
Apple is willingly giving up those markets because they had to, in order to get the deal they wanted.
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If the big four are providing equal coverage in an area, and you're saying company service matters, then I'm skeptical.
No, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of areas in the country where ATT is either mediocre or downright bad, in terms of reception/call quality (though CS and billing doesn't seem to be their forte either), thus Apple's exclusive deal with ATT is indeed holding down iPhone sales.
The iPhone's very good, but if ATT is crap in your area, are you really going to purchase one? For most people, the answer is "Nope". \
No doubt Apple understands this too, which is why its been rumored that their deal with ATT is not a five-year deal, but rather a two-year deal with an option to go five years. An option that Apple will very likely not exercise, as the iPhone will be well-established in the US by then (it is already, really), and they'd make more money by going multicarrier with it.
The other carriers are more likely to agree to Apple's terms now that they see that the iPhone is a success in the US (though Europe is still up in the air).
And on November 27th, we have the following: Orange hopes to sell 100,000 iPhones
These articles have already been pointed out. The thought was that Orange back pedaled after the first months sales were 70,000. The article I posted quotes Orange CEO did project 50 to 100 from the beginning but of course they hope it would be 100.
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So they missed their goal by about one-third (100k goal vs 70k actually sold). Not a total disaster, but it does show that iPhone sales are soft in Europe... especially considering that France seems to be the strongest of the Euro launch areas.
This was mostly a goal to earn bragging rights, Orange will have sold 100 by mid January. Not a huge deal as long as everyone's profit ledgers are in the black.
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No. The K800i costs £70 outright, one time cost. SIM is as above. Texts cost 10p each, calls vary. You don't get free anything - it's PAYG. You do get rewards however for topping up regularly and being a long standing customer. So, I'd expect a year would cost me £280. That's only £10 more than the iPhone costs before I've even turned it on and I'd get 3G and a decent camera.
It looks like it about evens out to me. There are some advantages and disadvantages to both PAYG and contract. You just have to pick your poison.
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The industry is bad in some ways (I could give you a list), but that does not mean that all carriers are equally bad, nor does it mean that they are equally bad across all regions.
Being in NYC call reception between them is not a huge differentiating factor. But they all still have pros and cons which pretty much equals them out. You just end up picking the one with the most pros you like and the cons you can live with.
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Apple is willingly giving up those markets because they had to, in order to get the deal they wanted. No, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of areas in the country where ATT is either mediocre or downright bad, in terms of reception/call quality (though CS and billing doesn't seem to be their forte either), thus Apple's exclusive deal with ATT is indeed holding down iPhone sales.
I don't think so. The mobile phone co's are going to invest the most money and infrastructure in areas where people have the most money. Namely New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago. Those are the areas where Apple targets its stores, its computers, and the iPhone.
It's not really a probable event, unless you believe that the iPhone is "Just like the iPod". But for good or ill, there are big differences between the music player market and the cellphone market.
There are differences to be sure. But there aren't many differences with people's willingness to spend money. At $400 per unit, $70/month, it's not reachable to a large fraction of the population. That's a pretty big barrier for entry, and Apple knows it'll limit unit sales. If they choose to expand their sales beyond the 1% they are targeting. An iPhone nano is all but guaranteed.
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Even if that's true, and we really don't have anything other than your opinion to go on regarding that, it'd still affect Q3 sales quite significantly.
Well, opinions is all we have in absense of data. My bet is that Apple will have sold 2 to 2.5m units in Q4 07. If that doesn't happen, I'd better sell the stock now, because it'll drop a lot.
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Forget the iPod. Its a very different market.
Well, Apple has setup the iPhone to be very iPod-ish with the way it positions the product. It's a luxury item where sales pickup during the holiday season, and drop in the other quarters. It should have increasing sales compared to previous year quarters as it is a new market for Apple while also being a high growth market. Ie, Q3 08 should have more unit sales than Q3 07. This is very iPod-ish in the early years.
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Revised software in that timeframe is likely, revised hardware, not really. Best estimates put a new iPhone (3G) in a mid- to late '08 timeframe.
We'll know how serious Apple is with the iPhone. A storage increase is possible in Q1 08. It'll be interesting to see if they release a 16 GB iPhone for $499 in the next couple of months. And everyone and their brother thinks a 3G version will come in Summer 08.
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As was mine. Churn/customer loyalty is affected by more than just reception (customer service, phone quality and selection, billing issues, etc. etc. all play a part), plus there are national surveys on categories separate from reception/call quality, such as customer service/customer care.
I'm not sold on churn as being an indicator of good service. It's more a byproduct of a level playing field of equally bad or good players. Customer loyalty, I buy into that, but I think it is at best mediocre in the wireless business. The satisfaction rates are at best mediocre.
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The industry is bad in some ways (I could give you a list), but that does not mean that all carriers are equally bad, nor does it mean that they are equally bad across all regions. And, in fact, there are some carriers in some regions who are actually quite good. I've been with my current carrier for several years now, wouldn't change for the world.
I was with Sprint for several years and had no problem leaving. I'm on Verizon now, and I'll have no problem leaving it too.
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Nah. Apple went the exclusive carrier route because they wanted a partner who'd be very focused on marketing and promoting the iPhone, and who'd make changes to their network that would allow certain iPhone features to happen that couldn't otherwise, such as visual voicemail. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, they wanted someone who'd be willing to agree to an unprecedented-in-the-wireless-world revenue sharing deal.
Apple wanted a certain deal, and they had to give exclusivity in order to get it. ... Apple is willingly giving up those markets because they had to, in order to get the deal they wanted.
Well, I'm glass half full here. I certainly agree they wanted they best revenue sharing deal they could get. But they knew that they would have to lock the phone down and make it exclusive, and they did it happily, not grudgingly, and played the carriers against each other so that they could get it.
The trade is simple. Apple could have sold into a larger market by releasing the iPhone on more carriers, but with less share of the service revenue; or, go with one carrier and a larger share of the revenue. They went with the latter. Branding (niche and exclusive status), what you've said about partnering, whatever, that sounds like a happy choice to me.
Did they have a revenue sharing percentage in mind when they went into discussions? Yes of course. Did it force their hand in regards to exclusivity? Well, I don't know, it doesn't seem like forcing to me. It also seems to me they are willing to negotiate what kind of deal they get too, but exclusivity is something they seem want to do.
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Not really. There are more expensive phones out there than the iPhone which are not exclusive nor particularly 'niche'.
Really? I figure by price alone it's in a niche. In the USA, it's 400 dollars. In the UK it's 270 pounds. There isn't any contract discount to speak of. That sounds like Apple wants to keep the iPhone in a certain niche, not mass market popular. Even the superphones in Europe such as the E90, N95, Viewty, Prada, SE whatever, get contract discounts.
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No, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of areas in the country where ATT is either mediocre or downright bad, in terms of reception/call quality (though CS and billing doesn't seem to be their forte either), thus Apple's exclusive deal with ATT is indeed holding down iPhone sales.
You don't think that is by choice? A happy choice?
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No doubt Apple understands this too, which is why its been rumored that their deal with ATT is not a five-year deal, but rather a two-year deal with an option to go five years. An option that Apple will very likely not exercise, as the iPhone will be well-established in the US by then (it is already, really), and they'd make more money by going multicarrier with it.
A 2-year deal with an option to go to 5-years is something new to me. Anyways, if at the end of 2-years, do you think Apple will still decide to have an exclusive carrier? The answer could very well be yes.
Depends on the cost of the calls/texts you make. 1 text costs 8.5p, calls 17p per minute. The allowance per month on my price plan (Flext20) is £34. See:
Ok, so can send 400 text messages or have 200 calls or some combination of 0.085*x texts + 0.17*y calls = 34. (Though your link state 20, 10, 12, and 20 pence for voice, text, voicemail, and picture messaging.) All this including the unlimited data for approximately 23 pounds or 46 dollars. That's a good deal. Wouldn't mind seeing that in the USA at all.
Comments
These days, SE K800i 3G phones I can tether to my Mac are going for £70 PAYG. Add a £10 a month SIM to get free text and some free calls + £7.50 for 'unlimited' data as and when I need it. Next to spending £269 for an iPhone and being locked into a shit contract for 18 months, I know which one I'd pick.
From what it appears you are saying with pay as you go costs 87.50 pounds vs 35 pounds under 18 month contract. How many minutes and text does that generally get you?
See the T-Mobile flext price plans. Rather than have so many minutes of free calls and so many free texts per month. You get an allowance of a certain value, which you can use on either calls or texts.
So what is the number of combined calls+texts under your allowance?
I think that came under the better interface. Anyway it's not as good as the Internet experience on my Macbook - which I can use with the Nokia.
Yes of course. But like the rational for have a camera phone, you ain't going to be lugging your Macbook with you everywhere you go either.
I whole heartedly agree that cell-phone as broadband modem is a pretty big feature, especially for business users.
Price is the killer. It's not competitive as it is.
It depends on what Apple wants. They fully know how big a factor price is for unit sales. If they want more unit sales, then they'll tweak the prices and the phone.
I don't think that's going to always be true in the UK at least. Here, about half of phone subscribers use PAYG SIMs, not contract. Phones have got good enough and cheap enough now that the economics of contracts just aren't sensible for many people unless there's some business package for their work. The iPhone isn't likely going to be a free handout from work either.
Do you have any evidence that this is so? For example, N95 sales breakdowns? Prada sales breakdowns?
It really doesn't jive with my perception of the market. People will go for the cheapest option and will accept a binding contract to get it. The only way your situation wins is that it will be cheaper than the free/cheap phone costs versus unlocked phone + whatever deal they can get, or that the carriers don't set competitive contracts.
Apple seem to have neither caught the shift in contract to PAYG in the consumer marketplace, or realised that contract phones are usually free and sell to people who balk at the up front cost of phones. As usual I'd suspect Apple Europe of just not getting it, like they did with AppleTV which just wasn't even worth launching here.
Nope. I think they are perfectly happy with the exclusive carrier deals plus revenue sharing. That is, they'd rather sell fewer units for higher revenues than sell a lot of units at lower profit margins. Obviously you don't want to see too few and there is a floor in unit sales before it becomes bad business. What that number is, I don't know. They have a lot of room for tweaking as well.
These days, SE K800i 3G phones I can tether to my Mac are going for £70 PAYG. Add a £10 a month SIM to get free text and some free calls + £7.50 for 'unlimited' data as and when I need it. Next to spending £269 for an iPhone and being locked into a shit contract for 18 months, I know which one I'd pick.
What are you getting for £10/month for number of calls. What's the limit on the text? What is the data limit for the £7.50? £17.50 is a pretty good deal for voice and data. I should like at pay-as-you-go SIM deals here to see if they are competitive.
Orange's prediction was between 50-100K units. And as far as I can tell. 70K seems roughly in that range. This isn't too shabby when you remember there are no Apple stores in France. And there is no Carphone Warehouse either. The only retail outlet is Orange shops.
If they sold the iPhone in FNAC it might do better.
C.
PS. If you are French and happen to be the CEO of FNAC. PLEASE BRING FNAC to the UK!!
I know you are French and all, but nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing an army of FNAC staff arrive in the UK and kick the arses of Curry's Digital into the North Sea. Amen.
I for one an confused by the premise of the story.
Orange's prediction was between 50-100K units. And as far as I can tell. 70K seems roughly in that range. This isn't too shabby when you remember there are no Apple stores in France. And there is no Carphone Warehouse either. The only retail outlet is Orange shops.
If they sold the iPhone in FNAC it might do better.
C.
PS. If you are French and happen to be the CEO of FNAC. PLEASE BRING FNAC to the UK!!
I know you are French and all, but nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing an army of FNAC staff arrive in the UK and kick the arses of Curry's Digital into the North Sea. Amen.
The original Orange prediction was 100K. They added the 50-100K prediction as they announced the 70K sales figures
The original Orange prediction was 100K. They added the 50-100K prediction as they announced the 70K sales figures
All I could find was this:
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/12/....iphones.sold/
C.
All I could find was this:
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/12/....iphones.sold/
C.
This was the original projection, before it went on sale.
And this is why I said they had added the 50-100K estimate, I hadn't seen your article before.
It really depends on what Apple wants to do, not necessarilly what you think they are doing. Their target is 1% (10m units) of the market in 2008. Success there could mean 7m iPhones in the USA, 2m in Europe, and 1m in Asia. That's probably doable depending on 2008 contract prices.
Seems like a reach, really. US Q3 sales were 1.1 million iPhone sold, or a 4.4 million per year pace.
Good, but not enough to reach that 10 million sold goal of Apple's if Euro and Asian sales suck.
I haven't bought one either, but I'm waiting on 16 GB storage and UMTS/HSPA. [i.e. 3G]
Ditto for me, plus I'd want a carrier other than ATT.
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This was the original projection, before it went on sale.
And this is why I said they had added the 50-100K estimate, I hadn't seen your article before.
Blog posted November 28th that says CEO Lombard projected 50,000 to 100,000.
Seems like a reach, really. US Q3 sales were 1.1 million iPhone sold, or a 4.4 million per year pace.
Good, but not enough to reach that 10 million sold goal of Apple's if Euro and Asian sales suck.
Well, it depends on 2008 contract prices, no? I for one am thinking that an iPhone nano will come out in Summer 2008 at half the current iPhone price, while the new version will be a good revision. I've always thought that they will reduce prices too, which already happened in the USA and it'll likely happen in Europe. Additionally, Apple is only in 3 European markets currently. There's the entirety of Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Southern Europe and Spain/Portugal to go.
So, they've got a lot of work left to do. If all they have is the one model, it's going to be tough at the current prices, especially for Europe. Who knows what it would be like in Asia. But it is possible as long as they improve the phone and have correct prices.
Also, Q3 unit sales should not be used as an average metric for yearly sales. It will be seasonal, and I wouldn't be surprised if Q4 sales were double that of Q3 sales. 4m in 2007 isn't out of the question. I can easily see Jobs announcing 4m at MWSF.
Ditto for me, plus I'd want a carrier other than ATT.
In America, it doesn't really matter which carrier you have unless you are geographically challenged.
In America, it doesn't really matter which carrier you have unless you are geographically challenged.
"Geographically challenged" covers a much broader area than you let on. That, and some areas get better reception for some carriers based on how far a tower is from your home or business.
So what is the number of combined calls+texts under your allowance?
Depends on the cost of the calls/texts you make. 1 text costs 8.5p, calls 17p per minute. The allowance per month on my price plan (Flext20) is £34. See:
http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/mobil...8mth-flext-20/
Well, it depends on 2008 contract prices, no? I for one am thinking that an iPhone nano will come out in Summer 2008 at half the current iPhone price, while the new version will be a good revision. I've always thought that they will reduce prices too
There's a lot of "hopefullys" in that comment.
What's funny is that a lot of ppl here have commented that there'd be no point in an iPhone Nano, as it would be bad to have a smaller screen than the current 3.5". In any case, an iPhone Nano is pure speculation at this point. Ditto additional price drops on the current model in the near term... it just had a huge price drop only 4 months ago.
Also, Q3 unit sales should not be used as an average metric for yearly sales. It will be seasonal, and I wouldn't be surprised if Q4 sales were double that of Q3 sales. 4m in 2007 isn't out of the question. I can easily see Jobs announcing 4m at MWSF.
Q4 sales might be significantly higher than Q3... then again, they may not, as Q3 sales include the leading edge of the early adopter wave, Q4, not so much. And regardless of how good Q4 sales are, what of Q1 and Q2? Can't count on blowout holidays sales in May, after all.
In America, it doesn't really matter which carrier you have unless you are geographically challenged.
Completely untrue. Examine things like carrier churn rates (i.e. how many customers leave a carrier per month), JD Power surveys, Consumer Reports, etc. You'll find that carriers do indeed vary in quality quite a bit.
Take my area, for example. Verizon is great here, T-Mobile's not bad, ATT and Sprint are mediocre to bad, and MetroPCS is kind of a joke. Meanwhile, in inland South Carolina where my brother's going to grad school, Alltel is the best, Verizon second, and everyone else is not really worth having.
It varies region by region, but no, all carriers are not the same.
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Blog posted November 28th that says CEO Lombard projected 50,000 to 100,000.
And on November 27th, we have the following:
Orange discusses unlocked iPhones, sales goals for France (Updated)
By David Chartier | Published: November 27, 2007 - 10:04AM CT
As France's Orange prepares to begin selling the iPhone on Wednesday, its CEO, Didier Lombard, unveiled some details and a lofty sales goal in an interview with Europe 1 radio. By the end of the year, Orange hopes to sell 100,000 iPhones, though Didier wasn't clear on whether that figured includes the unlocked iPhones that French law requires of Apple.
Reuters reports the same thing, also on the 27th:
UPDATE 2-Fr Telecom sees near 100,000 iPhone sales by year end
Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:55am EST
Orange will offer an unlocked i-Phone at a price "significantly lower" than the 999 euros ($1,485) proposed by T-Mobile in Germany, Didier Lombard, France Telecom's chief executive, told Europe 1 radio in an interview on Tuesday.
He predicted 100,000 sales by the end of the year, a projection which analyst Carolina Milanesi of research group Gartner called "reasonable".
http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...BrandChannel=0
So they missed their goal by about one-third (100k goal vs 70k actually sold). Not a total disaster, but it does show that iPhone sales are soft in Europe... especially considering that France seems to be the strongest of the Euro launch areas.
Frankly, I'm even more concerned about the UK and Germany.
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There's a lot of "hopefullys" in that comment.
Well yes. We are trying to predict the future here. Even a proponent of the pessimistic viewpoint - not meeting the projected unit sales - must use "hopefully". No one can predict the future with such assuredness. We'd be more confident if we had Apple's market research and market strategy in hand, but alas we don't.
What's funny is that a lot of ppl here have commented that there'd be no point in an iPhone Nano, as it would be bad to have a smaller screen than the current 3.5". In any case, an iPhone Nano is pure speculation at this point. Ditto additional price drops on the current model in the near term... it just had a huge price drop only 4 months ago.
It doesn't have a price drop in Europe yet. iPhone nano is pure speculation, but it's good speculation. It's a probable event, unlike say, Apple ressurecting the "Newton" brand or producing a cell phone with Windows Mobile or a Mac OS X update with Windows app binary support.
Q4 sales might be significantly higher than Q3... then again, they may not, as Q3 sales include the leading edge of the early adopter wave, Q4, not so much. And regardless of how good Q4 sales are, what of Q1 and Q2? Can't count on blowout holidays sales in May, after all.
I think the early adoptor phase is over. It was over within the first month. In regards to Q1 and Q2, if it follows iPod sales trends from yesteryear, it would have increasing sales every quarter with Q4 being the exception where it should be about double Q3. Also, for Q1 and Q2, Apple can count on revised hardware (both minor and major) and revised software to continue to drive sales.
Completely untrue. Examine things like carrier churn rates (i.e. how many customers leave a carrier per month), JD Power surveys, Consumer Reports, etc. You'll find that carriers do indeed vary in quality quite a bit.
My comment was about the overall quality of service (not radio reception) from the carriers. When the industry is already bad, variability among the different companies don't matter much. Apple's choice of ATT as an exclusive provider speaks more to them wanting the iPhone to be a niche product for at least until 2008 rather than trying to make it a popular product available on every carrier in the USA. The price alone should tell you that also.
If there is a geographical reason why one's reception is better than the other, than yup, Apple is willingly giving up those markets. If the big four are providing equal coverage in an area, and you're saying company service matters, then I'm skeptical.
Hey Aegis,
While I am totally happy with my iPhone. The deal you mention might be good for my daughter.
Can you provide details?
I'm on Orange PAYG. If you top up at least £10 a month they give you unlimited text evenings and weekends. If you top up more, unlimited all the time. I rarely spend that much though.
A month on Orange World data is £7.50. It's 'unlimited' but has a fair usage policy. I've abused it many a time and not been kicked off.
Try http://www.onecompare.com/ btw for comparing phone deals. IME, PAYG is better for kids as they can't go mad!
From what it appears you are saying with pay as you go costs 87.50 pounds vs 35 pounds under 18 month contract. How many minutes and text does that generally get you?
No. The K800i costs £70 outright, one time cost. SIM is as above. Texts cost 10p each, calls vary. You don't get free anything - it's PAYG. You do get rewards however for topping up regularly and being a long standing customer.
So, I'd expect a year would cost me £280. That's only £10 more than the iPhone costs before I've even turned it on and I'd get 3G and a decent camera.
I use PAYG SIMs for a number of other reasons. I've a business line which is almost always incoming only. I use an old T610i and a PAYG SIM. It ends up costing me about £20 a year. PAYG SIMs are great value if you never phone anyone.
Do you have any evidence that this is so? For example, N95 sales breakdowns? Prada sales breakdowns?
I'm sure I've read the PAYG v contract split somewhere but Google is failing me.
It doesn't have a price drop in Europe yet.
It definitely needs one, stat.
iPhone nano is pure speculation, but it's good speculation. It's a probable event
It's not really a probable event, unless you believe that the iPhone is "Just like the iPod". But for good or ill, there are big differences between the music player market and the cellphone market.
I think the early adoptor phase is over. It was over within the first month.
Even if that's true, and we really don't have anything other than your opinion to go on regarding that, it'd still affect Q3 sales quite significantly.
In regards to Q1 and Q2, if it follows iPod sales trends from yesteryear
Forget the iPod. Its a very different market.
Also, for Q1 and Q2, Apple can count on revised hardware (both minor and major) and revised software to continue to drive sales.
Revised software in that timeframe is likely, revised hardware, not really. Best estimates put a new iPhone (3G) in a mid- to late '08 timeframe.
While I personally would LOVE it if revised hardware showed up during Q1 or Q2, I am not holding my breath.
My comment was about the overall quality of service (not radio reception) from the carriers.
As was mine. Churn/customer loyalty is affected by more than just reception (customer service, phone quality and selection, billing issues, etc. etc. all play a part), plus there are national surveys on categories separate from reception/call quality, such as customer service/customer care.
And yes, in those surveys, the results show the carriers differing in quality, just as in the reception/call quality surveys.
When the industry is already bad, variability among the different companies don't matter much.
The industry is bad in some ways (I could give you a list), but that does not mean that all carriers are equally bad, nor does it mean that they are equally bad across all regions. And, in fact, there are some carriers in some regions who are actually quite good. I've been with my current carrier for several years now, wouldn't change for the world.
Apple's choice of ATT as an exclusive provider speaks more to them wanting the iPhone to be a niche product for at least until 2008 rather than trying to make it a popular product available on every carrier in the USA.
Nah. Apple went the exclusive carrier route because they wanted a partner who'd be very focused on marketing and promoting the iPhone, and who'd make changes to their network that would allow certain iPhone features to happen that couldn't otherwise, such as visual voicemail. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, they wanted someone who'd be willing to agree to an unprecedented-in-the-wireless-world revenue sharing deal.
Apple wanted a certain deal, and they had to give exclusivity in order to get it.
The price alone should tell you that also.
Not really. There are more expensive phones out there than the iPhone which are not exclusive nor particularly 'niche'.
If there is a geographical reason why one's reception is better than the other, than yup, Apple is willingly giving up those markets.
Apple is willingly giving up those markets because they had to, in order to get the deal they wanted.
If the big four are providing equal coverage in an area, and you're saying company service matters, then I'm skeptical.
No, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of areas in the country where ATT is either mediocre or downright bad, in terms of reception/call quality (though CS and billing doesn't seem to be their forte either), thus Apple's exclusive deal with ATT is indeed holding down iPhone sales.
The iPhone's very good, but if ATT is crap in your area, are you really going to purchase one? For most people, the answer is "Nope".
No doubt Apple understands this too, which is why its been rumored that their deal with ATT is not a five-year deal, but rather a two-year deal with an option to go five years. An option that Apple will very likely not exercise, as the iPhone will be well-established in the US by then (it is already, really), and they'd make more money by going multicarrier with it.
The other carriers are more likely to agree to Apple's terms now that they see that the iPhone is a success in the US (though Europe is still up in the air).
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And on November 27th, we have the following: Orange hopes to sell 100,000 iPhones
These articles have already been pointed out. The thought was that Orange back pedaled after the first months sales were 70,000. The article I posted quotes Orange CEO did project 50 to 100 from the beginning but of course they hope it would be 100.
So they missed their goal by about one-third (100k goal vs 70k actually sold). Not a total disaster, but it does show that iPhone sales are soft in Europe... especially considering that France seems to be the strongest of the Euro launch areas.
This was mostly a goal to earn bragging rights, Orange will have sold 100 by mid January. Not a huge deal as long as everyone's profit ledgers are in the black.
No. The K800i costs £70 outright, one time cost. SIM is as above. Texts cost 10p each, calls vary. You don't get free anything - it's PAYG. You do get rewards however for topping up regularly and being a long standing customer. So, I'd expect a year would cost me £280. That's only £10 more than the iPhone costs before I've even turned it on and I'd get 3G and a decent camera.
It looks like it about evens out to me. There are some advantages and disadvantages to both PAYG and contract. You just have to pick your poison.
The industry is bad in some ways (I could give you a list), but that does not mean that all carriers are equally bad, nor does it mean that they are equally bad across all regions.
Being in NYC call reception between them is not a huge differentiating factor. But they all still have pros and cons which pretty much equals them out. You just end up picking the one with the most pros you like and the cons you can live with.
Apple is willingly giving up those markets because they had to, in order to get the deal they wanted. No, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of areas in the country where ATT is either mediocre or downright bad, in terms of reception/call quality (though CS and billing doesn't seem to be their forte either), thus Apple's exclusive deal with ATT is indeed holding down iPhone sales.
I don't think so. The mobile phone co's are going to invest the most money and infrastructure in areas where people have the most money. Namely New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago. Those are the areas where Apple targets its stores, its computers, and the iPhone.
It definitely needs one, stat.
Perhaps.
It's not really a probable event, unless you believe that the iPhone is "Just like the iPod". But for good or ill, there are big differences between the music player market and the cellphone market.
There are differences to be sure. But there aren't many differences with people's willingness to spend money. At $400 per unit, $70/month, it's not reachable to a large fraction of the population. That's a pretty big barrier for entry, and Apple knows it'll limit unit sales. If they choose to expand their sales beyond the 1% they are targeting. An iPhone nano is all but guaranteed.
Even if that's true, and we really don't have anything other than your opinion to go on regarding that, it'd still affect Q3 sales quite significantly.
Well, opinions is all we have in absense of data. My bet is that Apple will have sold 2 to 2.5m units in Q4 07. If that doesn't happen, I'd better sell the stock now, because it'll drop a lot.
Forget the iPod. Its a very different market.
Well, Apple has setup the iPhone to be very iPod-ish with the way it positions the product. It's a luxury item where sales pickup during the holiday season, and drop in the other quarters. It should have increasing sales compared to previous year quarters as it is a new market for Apple while also being a high growth market. Ie, Q3 08 should have more unit sales than Q3 07. This is very iPod-ish in the early years.
Revised software in that timeframe is likely, revised hardware, not really. Best estimates put a new iPhone (3G) in a mid- to late '08 timeframe.
We'll know how serious Apple is with the iPhone. A storage increase is possible in Q1 08. It'll be interesting to see if they release a 16 GB iPhone for $499 in the next couple of months. And everyone and their brother thinks a 3G version will come in Summer 08.
As was mine. Churn/customer loyalty is affected by more than just reception (customer service, phone quality and selection, billing issues, etc. etc. all play a part), plus there are national surveys on categories separate from reception/call quality, such as customer service/customer care.
I'm not sold on churn as being an indicator of good service. It's more a byproduct of a level playing field of equally bad or good players. Customer loyalty, I buy into that, but I think it is at best mediocre in the wireless business. The satisfaction rates are at best mediocre.
The industry is bad in some ways (I could give you a list), but that does not mean that all carriers are equally bad, nor does it mean that they are equally bad across all regions. And, in fact, there are some carriers in some regions who are actually quite good. I've been with my current carrier for several years now, wouldn't change for the world.
I was with Sprint for several years and had no problem leaving. I'm on Verizon now, and I'll have no problem leaving it too.
Nah. Apple went the exclusive carrier route because they wanted a partner who'd be very focused on marketing and promoting the iPhone, and who'd make changes to their network that would allow certain iPhone features to happen that couldn't otherwise, such as visual voicemail. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, they wanted someone who'd be willing to agree to an unprecedented-in-the-wireless-world revenue sharing deal.
Apple wanted a certain deal, and they had to give exclusivity in order to get it. ... Apple is willingly giving up those markets because they had to, in order to get the deal they wanted.
Well, I'm glass half full here. I certainly agree they wanted they best revenue sharing deal they could get. But they knew that they would have to lock the phone down and make it exclusive, and they did it happily, not grudgingly, and played the carriers against each other so that they could get it.
The trade is simple. Apple could have sold into a larger market by releasing the iPhone on more carriers, but with less share of the service revenue; or, go with one carrier and a larger share of the revenue. They went with the latter. Branding (niche and exclusive status), what you've said about partnering, whatever, that sounds like a happy choice to me.
Did they have a revenue sharing percentage in mind when they went into discussions? Yes of course. Did it force their hand in regards to exclusivity? Well, I don't know, it doesn't seem like forcing to me. It also seems to me they are willing to negotiate what kind of deal they get too, but exclusivity is something they seem want to do.
Not really. There are more expensive phones out there than the iPhone which are not exclusive nor particularly 'niche'.
Really? I figure by price alone it's in a niche. In the USA, it's 400 dollars. In the UK it's 270 pounds. There isn't any contract discount to speak of. That sounds like Apple wants to keep the iPhone in a certain niche, not mass market popular. Even the superphones in Europe such as the E90, N95, Viewty, Prada, SE whatever, get contract discounts.
No, what I'm saying is that there are plenty of areas in the country where ATT is either mediocre or downright bad, in terms of reception/call quality (though CS and billing doesn't seem to be their forte either), thus Apple's exclusive deal with ATT is indeed holding down iPhone sales.
You don't think that is by choice? A happy choice?
No doubt Apple understands this too, which is why its been rumored that their deal with ATT is not a five-year deal, but rather a two-year deal with an option to go five years. An option that Apple will very likely not exercise, as the iPhone will be well-established in the US by then (it is already, really), and they'd make more money by going multicarrier with it.
A 2-year deal with an option to go to 5-years is something new to me. Anyways, if at the end of 2-years, do you think Apple will still decide to have an exclusive carrier? The answer could very well be yes.
Depends on the cost of the calls/texts you make. 1 text costs 8.5p, calls 17p per minute. The allowance per month on my price plan (Flext20) is £34. See:
http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/mobil...8mth-flext-20/
Ok, so can send 400 text messages or have 200 calls or some combination of 0.085*x texts + 0.17*y calls = 34. (Though your link state 20, 10, 12, and 20 pence for voice, text, voicemail, and picture messaging.) All this including the unlimited data for approximately 23 pounds or 46 dollars. That's a good deal. Wouldn't mind seeing that in the USA at all.