Letdown?

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  • Reply 161 of 212
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by imiloa View Post


    Is the battery soldered to the motherboard? If not, a savvy user can likely replace it. Or pay a service tech to do so for $100.



    Yeah like that is going to work when you are standing in line at the airport security and don't have a working laptop because the battery is dead!



    Beyond that why pay anybody $100 dollars for something that should just snap in place like it does on 100% of the rest fo the laptops in the world?



    Further think about how this discounts the value of a Vacuum on the resale market. Not only does the factor of a replacement battery have to be considered, but getting it installed and the inconvenience of having that done needs to be considered. If people think the Vacuum is a good enough machine for them now they really need to think about its discounted resale value down the road. You won't be shifting this machine every two years with nary a dent in the budget.

    Quote:



    For ref, my rev D MBP battery is two years old now and still at 88% health.



    Lucky you. The reality is though that 88% is still pretty bad and you can replace that battery at any time. You can even carry an extra one with you as that one ages.

    Quote:

    Anyone buying a MBAir over a MB/MBP is doing so for the svelte size. They are already giving up a lot of functionality, so likely not worried about $100 to swap in a new battery every 3-4 years.



    Well that is one way to look at it. Frankly I suspect a lot of stupid people will buy the Vacuum because they see it as trendy. Such purchase will get dumped unceremoniously a few months latter when it is realized that the limitations are greater than the gloss of carrying one around. In effect the Vacuum is the mans equivalent of a fancy shade of lip gloss, trendy for a moment or two then disposed of for the latest ind greatest once it is realized it doesn't make up for substance.



    In any event I'm beginning to fell as if I've been way to easy on the Vacuum and the people supporting it. There is certainly an air of defensiveness that has to be cut through, one just has to figure out how to ring the right bells.





    dave
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  • Reply 162 of 212
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aflaaak View Post


    Exactly. I just priced a Dell XPS 420 and with monitor, a better GPU and lots of other goodies. It comes in at $2000, whereas the MacPro needs a monitor, has no TV tuner, etc. I know, it still has the Mac OS and that's the only reason I keep considering a Mac and thought that maybe Apple would want my business and listen to all the others who would but an XMac in a heatbeat. I guess not



    If Apple were to release a single socket Mac Pro using that same high end x38 motherboard used in the 420 and its workstation cousin the T3400, they'd easily be able to hit that price point. The server class parts add about $400-600 to the price. Personally, I would have preferred Apple go with a 2.5ghz quad core at that $2300 price point and released an affordable core 2 Quad/X38 Duo Mac Pro at the low end. I'm willing to pay a premium for the Apple logo, but when that premium is $500 more than a Premium PC maker like Velocity Micro for the same capability, I reach my limit.
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  • Reply 163 of 212
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Yeah, because I/O is the only thing that matters in a computer!!!!



    It only matters if you don't have what you need! In the case of the Vacuum that is a big issue.

    Quote:



    You ask me to ignore all the other things that make up a computer, because it blows your argument to smithereens.



    Nope you haven't blown anything, at least that I know of. In fact you haven't in any shape or manner supported the pricing on the Vacuum. Trying to compare it against other products that have failed in the market place isn't exactly helping your argument. Further the items you do compare it to are better equipped to be a success so what is your point?

    Quote:



    Honestly the EEE PC has more in common with the Archos 705 PMP than the MacBook Air.



    Nope not really. Other than they both run Linux they really have little to compare. The Eee PC is in effect a miniature laptop. What make the Eee PC relevant to the discussion is the fact that they where able to pack so much into the little box. Enough I/O in fact to make it attractive to a number of people that wouldn't normally go for the form factor.

    Quote:

    Since you appear incapable of realising that fact, I don't see the point in debating with you.



    It is good that you drop out of the discussion because you have not yet realized that what you are defending has no substance. Maybe the RDF will wear off you in a few days and you can come back to the discussion on the reasonable side.



    Dave
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  • Reply 164 of 212
    aflaaakaflaaak Posts: 210member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    If Apple were to release a single socket Mac Pro using that same high end x38 motherboard used in the 420 and its workstation cousin the T3400, they'd easily be able to hit that price point. The server class parts add about $400-600 to the price. Personally, I would have preferred Apple go with a 2.5ghz quad core at that $2300 price point and released an affordable core 2 Quad/X38 Duo Mac Pro at the low end. I'm willing to pay a premium for the Apple logo, but when that premium is $500 more than a Premium PC maker like Velocity Micro for the same capability, I reach my

    limit.



    Ditto. I'm willing, and expect to, pay more for the Mac OS. I just see the huge unfilled hole between a server MacPro and the limited AIO iMac and wonder why the hell Apple doesn't thing they could make money filling it.
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  • Reply 165 of 212
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Dave, please show everyone here that having 3 USB ports rather than 1, and an input for a mic, are not the only things that the EEE PC has over the MacBook Air.



    Really, I think you must be pulling my chain with your argument. You can't seriously believe you are being serious comparing the EEE PC to the MacBook Air. You must just be having a laugh seeing how you can goad me into responding to you.



    The EEE PC has:
    • a 7" 800 x 480 resolution display

    • a tiny, tiny keyboard

    • 512 MB RAM (yes, it's expandable, but the point is moot, because the max RAM is 2 GB)

    • between 2 and 8 GB of storage, depending on configuration

    • VGA output

    • Awesomely slow, single-core, one generation old architecture CPU running at 900 MHz

    The MacBook Air has
    • 13.3" 1280 x 800 resolution display

    • Full-size, backlit keyboard

    • 2 GB RAM (same as EEE PC maximum)

    • 80 GB storage minimum

    • DVI out

    • Dual-core 1.6 GHz processor, minimum

    All this in a package only 450 g heavier.



    But wait! Let's ignore all that! The EEE PC has two extra USB ports therefore it is better and makes a mockery of the MacBook Air's price. Let's ignore the fact that all other similarly-specced computers cost at least the same as, if not more than, the MacBook Air.
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  • Reply 166 of 212
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lundy View Post


    Would you people please remember that not everything is mentioned in the keynote? I don't know where this assumption comes from, because almost every year the speed bumps and minor upgrades always come either in the last 2 weeks of January or in February.



    That is all well and good but the problem is that the keynote sucked big time. There was little offered up hardware wise that people would take an interest in. As I see it the NAS is about it. People still see Apple as a hardware company and the concentration on software at any sort of keynote is a big mistake in my mind. Especially software that is hardly breathtaking in its coverage.

    Quote:



    - There will never be iPod talk in January; those are updated before the holiday season. Even if there were a 16 GB update to the iPod, it isn't important enough for the keynote address. Time is limited.



    Time - are you crazy they started 15 minutes late! Something, I don't know what, had this whole keynote all screwed up. Maybe they had real hardware, for real users, in the wings and found a last minute glitch or two. I really don't know but there certainly was not lack of time at this keynote.



    As to the iPod Touch / IPhone let me put it bluntly, 8GB is not enough on an Apple Cell Phone. It does keep people from buying. The only good thing here is that I'm kinda hoping that they have something planned for the SDK debut. I just have to wonder if Apple will make its numbers for iPhone considering the current rate without enhancements to keep the average user happy.



    I make sure I used the word average to as that is exactly what I see my self as. It doesn't take long to fill 8GB with little bit of music. a lot of pictures, and a few other files.

    Quote:



    - Updates and speed bumps to the mini and the MacBook Pro, if any, will happen as a press release or not even mentioned at all. Steve spending time talking about Penryn is a waste. Processors always get faster. Not newsworthy. More RAM, bigger HD, different GPU, latest Intel processor. Yawn. iMacs are brand-new. Even if they get Penryn it is not something to announce at MacWorld.



    I will simply disagree here as the above described updates are of greater interest than what was delivered in the keynote. By a long shot.

    Quote:



    They had 3 new products - Apple TV, the NAS, and the MacBook Air, plus iTS video rentals and MS Office 2008. There is no time to talk about the MBP getting a Penryn processor. It will get it when it gets it.



    The RDF must have a strong influence on you. Lets see the Apple TV gets a software update, not really new if you ask me. The NAS is new and frankly the only thing that deserved time at the keynote. Video rentals are again software and a rehash of previous technology. And finally we get the Vacuum, likely the greatest example of mass control of the human mind in history. A product of no substance that everybody goes goo goo gaga over.



    All in all I'm not impressed at all with the keynote and my opinion is not singular. That is reflected in the trouncing the stock is taking right now. To bad for Apple share holders but wisely I'm not one of them. Hopefully they can pull a rabbit out of the hat soon.



    dave
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  • Reply 167 of 212
    mjteixmjteix Posts: 563member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    ...




    EEE PC (this is taken directly from Asus web site, the download (?) section.







    MacBook Air





    Clearly those two products are not made for the same audience. Which one are you?



    (Moderators, I don't mind being banned a few days, I have work to do anyway!)
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  • Reply 168 of 212
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    As to the iPod Touch / IPhone let me put it bluntly, 8GB is not enough on an Apple Cell Phone.



    That's a good one! You don't see any contradiction here between "8 GB is not enough for the iPhone" and "it's reasonable to compare the EEE PC to the MacBook Air" (EEE PC has 8 GB storage maximum, MacBook Air 10 x that).





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    The NAS is new and frankly the only thing that deserved time at the keynote.



    The NAS is underwhelming. Doesn't add anything to existing products other than looking a bit prettier. Should have the option to have dual drives in a redundant RAID, and have the option of running various servers such as a webserver, iTunes server for serving AppleTV and the like.
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  • Reply 169 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mjteix View Post


    EEE PC (this is taken directly from Asus web site, the download (?) section.







    MacBook Air





    Clearly those two products are not made for the same audience. Which one are you?



    (Moderators, I don't mind being banned a few days, I have work to do anyway!)



    You can't REALLY be saying that the EEE PC is for children only? Go look at the product reviews on Amazon or Newegg. Adults are using it as second, portable computer.
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  • Reply 170 of 212
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Dave, please show everyone here that having 3 USB ports rather than 1, and an input for a mic, are not the only things that the EEE PC has over the MacBook Air.



    The specifications for the Eee PC are public knowledge, but if you insist:

    Memory cards:

    1. MMC: include MMC (Multimedia Card) / MMC Plus / RS-MMC (Reduced Size) (with MMC adapter)

    2. SD: include SD (Secure Digital) / MicroSD (with SD adapter)

    3. MiniSD (with SD adapter)



    USB as you mentioned 3 external ports.



    Ethernet communications one port.



    WiFi supported!



    Internal expansion slot.



    What is of concern is that the above items are supported in a much smaller form factor.

    Quote:



    Really, I think you must be pulling my chain with your argument. You can't seriously believe you are being serious comparing the EEE PC to the MacBook Air. You must just be having a laugh seeing how you can goad me into responding to you.



    Actually I'm begin very serious as I see the Vacuums limitations as being grave. Sure it has a fancy new processor and soldered in RAM but the processor is only part of the equation when it comes to computing. This I think you will agree to if you think about it.

    Quote:



    The EEE PC has:
    • a 7" 800 x 480 resolution display

    • a tiny, tiny keyboard

    • 512 MB RAM (yes, it's expandable, but the point is moot, because the max RAM is 2 GB)

    • between 2 and 8 GB of storage, depending on configuration

    • VGA output

    • Awesomely slow, single-core, one generation old architecture CPU running at 900 MHz

    The MacBook Air has
    • 13.3" 1280 x 800 resolution display

    • Full-size, backlit keyboard

    • 2 GB RAM (same as EEE PC maximum)

    • 80 GB storage minimum

    • DVI out

    • Dual-core 1.6 GHz processor, minimum




    Yes the things that are include are very nice, that is not the problem. The problem is the items missing. The Ethernet, the extra USB slots, the support for a flash card port and internal expansion. The problem with the Vacuum is that it is seriously unbalanced as a computer goes. More so considering it's size. That the machine offers less in a larger package can't go unnoticed.



    It should be noted to that much of what you highlight above doesn't take up a lot of space relative to the Eee PC. They are using a crappy 1.8" drive, the RAM likely takes up less space and the new LED display technology is thinner. So where are all the ports?

    Quote:



    All this in a package only 450 g heavier.



    The point I'm trying to make is all of what? Processor - both machines have a processor, sure one is better than the other but space wise not much difference. Ram is the same thing, it is a wash. So why the lack of ports?



    It should also be noted that the Eee PC has a replaceable battery which hasn't impacted I/O on the device. Nor has it impacted weight.

    Quote:



    But wait! Let's ignore all that! The EEE PC has two extra USB ports therefore it is better and makes a mockery of the MacBook Air's price. Let's ignore the fact that all other similarly-specced computers cost at least the same as, if not more than, the MacBook Air.



    First off EEE PC has a lot more than two extra USB ports going for it. It has Ethernet along with Wifi. It also has a flash card reader.



    In any event I still don't think you are getting my point which is the Vacuum is disgraced by not what it has but by what it leaves out.



    Dave
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  • Reply 171 of 212
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    That's a good one! You don't see any contradiction here between "8 GB is not enough for the iPhone" and "it's reasonable to compare the EEE PC to the MacBook Air" (EEE PC has 8 GB storage maximum, MacBook Air 10 x that).



    Nope! The problem is this the iPhone is closed in the sense of Flash expansion and frankly I wouldn't be carrying around music on any laptop I use. Eee PC can be easily expanded if required.



    It really comes down to what you see as the usage for an ultra mobile PC. I see it as a better connectivity device than something like the iPhone when non voice communications is needed. The Eee PC is very flexible in that regards.

    [/quote]



    The NAS is underwhelming. Doesn't add anything to existing products other than looking a bit prettier. Should have the option to have dual drives in a redundant RAID, and have the option of running various servers such as a webserver, iTunes server for serving AppleTV and the like.[/QUOTE]



    It could be considered underwhelming but in the face of what it was debuted against it is a standout. Four things to cover and only one of them worth the time Jobs spent on stage. That is the way I see the NAS.



    Dave
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  • Reply 172 of 212
    stop with the apple nut-hugging. Apple fucked up the good ol' fashion way. They can take their $20 upgrade and shove it up their ASS! Like I said, There is something in the air, and it smells like SHIT!
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  • Reply 173 of 212
    shadowshadow Posts: 373member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by opnsource View Post


    NO KIDDING! Don't get me wrong, the Macbook Air is a cool niche product and everything, but the Pro is supposed to be the top of the line! And now the Air has new features that the Pro doesn't (multi-touch track pad for one) and the Pro doesn't even get a effing update? No speed bump? NOTHING??????? WTF?



    I believe there is a chance the new trackpad gestures will be supported in the current MBP after a software upgrade. If not this will go into the new models.



    Otherwise, great keynote!
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  • Reply 174 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Nope! The problem is this the iPhone is closed in the sense of Flash expansion and frankly I wouldn't be carrying around music on any laptop I use. Eee PC can be easily expanded if required.



    It really comes down to what you see as the usage for an ultra mobile PC. I see it as a better connectivity device than something like the iPhone when non voice communications is needed. The Eee PC is very flexible in that regards.



    The NAS is underwhelming. Doesn't add anything to existing products other than looking a bit prettier. Should have the option to have dual drives in a redundant RAID, and have the option of running various servers such as a webserver, iTunes server for serving AppleTV and the like.[/QUOTE]



    Air price should be 3X iPhones. Ie $1200 period. Now happy ?. TC Nas is only news, I will get 2, one for office and one for home!.
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  • Reply 175 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by opnsource View Post


    NO KIDDING! Don't get me wrong, the Macbook Air is a cool niche product and everything, but the Pro is supposed to be the top of the line! And now the Air has new features that the Pro doesn't (multi-touch track pad for one) and the Pro doesn't even get a effing update? No speed bump? NOTHING??????? WTF?



    I think we can expect more pure "fashion"-driven designs from Apple in the future. Face it, the incredible engineering and tradeoffs made for the MBA all come from the cosmetic point of view. This keeps Apple's products on the leading edge of aspirational consumer electronics products.



    I'd expect some of the design cues to fold into future iPhone designs also.
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  • Reply 176 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shadow View Post


    I believe there is a chance the new trackpad gestures will be supported in the current MBP after a software upgrade. If not this will go into the new models.



    Otherwise, great keynote!



    Yeah, it will be supported allright... for a nice $50 upgrade fee.



    Bullshit!
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  • Reply 177 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    I think we can expect more pure "fashion"-driven designs from Apple in the future. Face it, the incredible engineering and tradeoffs made for the MBA all come from the cosmetic point of view. This keeps Apple's products on the leading edge of aspirational consumer electronics products.



    I'd expect some of the design cues to fold into future iPhone designs also.







    I think we can expect more pure Upgrade Fees..That will keep Apple's products on the leading edge of aspirational consumer electronic price gouging.
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  • Reply 178 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by His Dudeness View Post


    You obviously can't read. I wasn't defending Bush. I'm just telling you that any sitting President can't, and doesn't, control what everyone is blaming Bush for. Reread it and then come back in to the conversation. And how is it exaclty that I'm fucked, because of Bush? I still have a job, in fact I'm retiring from it in 6 months at the age of 38. How bout you?



    There's a big difference between being able to read and comprehend. If you think the first part is beyond me, the second escapes you.



    Bush is the primary p.r. ambassador for your country. As such he has huge influence over the state of your economy which is, currently, fucked. No question.



    For the record, at 39 I'm an exec within a multi-million pound media conglomerate and work 4 months of the year making money while I sleep the other 8.



    The Air? It'll look good on my receptionists' desks but I can't see anybody here using it for work.
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  • Reply 179 of 212
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    The specifications for the Eee PC are public knowledge, but if you insist:

    Memory cards:

    1. MMC: include MMC (Multimedia Card) / MMC Plus / RS-MMC (Reduced Size) (with MMC adapter)

    2. SD: include SD (Secure Digital) / MicroSD (with SD adapter)

    3. MiniSD (with SD adapter)



    All of which it desperately needs, because its built-in storage is laughable. Well, it's fine for text files and light browsing.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    USB as you mentioned 3 external ports.



    On one bus, so no substantial improvement over a hub.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Ethernet communications one port.



    Legacy, when Jiffy Lubes have wireless access.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    WiFi supported!



    802.11g only. S-l-o-w.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    What is of concern is that the above items are supported in a much smaller form factor.



    What is of concern is that you can't see the value in removing things that are not often needed, nor of building in enough that you don't need expansion. With a bare minimum of ports, the Air is durable, looks sleek, and could be shrunk down as small as it was because the motherboard doesn't have to extend to cover port locations all over the machine.



    I like the Eee. It's a spiffy little machine that takes care of the needs of a lot of people. But it's not a full-fledged personal computer. The OS and applications are take it or leave it (you can install Windows, but it's not a happy experience). The screen, while usable, is tiny and dim. You can't touch type on the keyboard, which is a deal-breaker for me.



    The Air is at least a fully capable Mac. And while there's something to having a machine like my 17" PB that has every possible contingency accounted for, and is sized and weighted appropriately, there's also something to be said for a machine that only has what you need 80% or 90% of the time, and leans on peripherals for the rest. Obviously, if you spend 80% or 90% of your time with your ports full and your drive whirring, the Air is not your machine. But how many people just use their laptops, without peripherals and without an optical disk, almost all of the time? That's the potential market for the Air.



    Oh, and it doesn't hurt that the Air looks gorgeous while the Eee looks like cheap. Maybe Asus could clean up the design by getting rid of a lot of those ports.
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  • Reply 180 of 212
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amorph View Post




    I like the Eee. It's a spiffy little machine that takes care of the needs of a lot of people. But it's not a full-fledged personal computer. The OS and applications are take it or leave it (you can install Windows, but it's not a happy experience). The screen, while usable, is tiny and dim. You can't touch type on the keyboard, which is a deal-breaker for me.



    It is a happy experience. You can up it to 2gb ram. I can run Halo on mine.
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