NVIDIA readying GeForce 8800 GT upgrade for earlier Mac Pros

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  • Reply 101 of 123
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,954member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    We could just call gainward and ask them how much it's going to cost us to have them halt their standard operations to run off a few customized cards? I don't think it's going to be cheap. Regardless, Given the amount purchased, and the trouble it takes to have them made, Apple is paying a lot more than say PNY, or gainward for that matter who makes cards for their own profit as a business.



    The thing is, with flexible manufacturing strategies, I'm thinking that they don't have to stop manufacturing to make a minor variation.
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  • Reply 102 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I really don't know about computer board production, though I do design very simple circuit boards from time to time. How much of a custom card is it, really? Could it be that they just put on a larger firmware chip? If it's a simple variation of an existing board, I don't see that part being expensive, change a part in the pick&place machine mid-stream for a batch and be done it. The part I see being expensive is developing and maintaining said firmware that's only used on one computer that might not get GPU upgrades. It doesn't help that there's no competition for Mac boards either, so the maker can charge what the market will bear.



    As someone who has designed complex multilayer cards, I can say that modern graphics boards are fairly complex. While most cards are designed using computer programs, a good deal of human intervention is required. Also, it's rare that the first iteration, or even the second, is usable. Each new board must be designed from scratch. Even changing a half dozen traces can cause a total re design.



    I agree with Onlooker, and yourself here on the number of boards sold. I've also been saying that the very small number is what prevents others from bothering to get into the market. EFI, though, has nothing to do with it.



    If enough boards could be sold, then ATI, at least, would be in the Mac market, as they had been for years after every other manufacturer had abandoned it.



    What we know of Mc Pro sales is at the last estimate, a year ago, was that Apple was selling no more than about 125,000 machines a quarter.



    With most people buying the standard, least expensive card, that left Apple to sell very few higher grade cards.



    What manufacturer would be crazy enough to try to enter that tiny market?



    I'm willing to bet that Apple doesn't sell more than about 100,000 higher end cards this year for the Mac Pro's.



    Even if ATi, or another did enter the market with a lower price than the $350 for the 8800 GT, many people would still buy Apple's card, because it's easy to do so, and for the money they are paying for the machine as a whole, perhaps including a new monitor, etc, the $200 upgrade price isn't much to care about.



    As someone from a company who used to buy Macs, I can attest that for most companies, having the entire machine warranted by Apple, rather than having to look to different companies when something goes wrong, is often worth paying a bit more money up front.



    Companies hate buying a machine with a card, then replacing that card with t third party card. first, the money spent on the card is wasted. Second, if you have a problem, the first thing you will be told is to put the original card back. If the card is bad, that's fine.



    But, too often, there is some subtle problem that can only be understood, or resolved, with the bought card in place.



    The same thing is true for third party memory. You'd be surprised as how many companies will buy machines with Apple's memory, BECAUSE it is Apple's memory, and warranted with the entire machine. Apple is responsible.



    I know the post sort of got off track, but I just wanted to illustrate why some of these things happen.



    If Apple followed my idea for a graphic card in the top line 24" iMac, there might be several times as many machines sold each quarter that accepts cards, for Apple to lower its card prices, and for room for others.
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  • Reply 103 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    We could just call gainward and ask them how much it's going to cost us to have them halt their standard operations to run off a few customized cards? I don't think it's going to be cheap. Regardless, Given the amount purchased, and the trouble it takes to have them made, Apple is paying a lot more than say PNY, or gainward for that matter who makes cards for their own profit as a business.



    There are numerous companies that make custom cards. They will even let you download their software for free. Some of these companies are located in China, and despite that, they can get quantities of card out to you in a week (after you've tried, and vetted, the actual test boards). Of course, I don't recommend that everyone try this.
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  • Reply 104 of 123
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    I used gainward because last I heard they were the manufacturer Apple goes to to build their Nvidia cards.
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  • Reply 105 of 123
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I really don't know about computer board production, though I do design very simple circuit boards from time to time. How much of a custom card is it, really? Could it be that they just put on a larger firmware chip?



    Yes. That's it. Apart from having 128k for firmware instead of 64k, there is absolutely zero hardware difference between the cards Apple uses and stock graphics cards. The difference is software.
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  • Reply 106 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    Yes. That's it. Apart from having 128k for firmware instead of 64k, there is absolutely zero hardware difference between the cards Apple uses and stock graphics cards. The difference is software.



    And how dou you know this?



    Each manufacturer that makes its own boards, and doesn't use Nvidia's reference designs has different layout, which can easily be seen when looking at the photo's.
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  • Reply 107 of 123
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    And how dou you know this?



    Each manufacturer that makes its own boards, and doesn't use Nvidia's reference designs has different layout, which can easily be seen when looking at the photo's.



    Yes, some manufacturers use non-reference designs. I have no idea what parts they use. However, Apple's graphics cards are always reference designs, the only thing they're usually missing is the S-video port. And the 8800GT pictured on the Apple store clearly looks like a reference card.



    Apart from leaving out the s-video connector, the only thing Apple's OEM would change is the ROM for the firmware. And hell, I don't know that Nvidia isn't making its board partners ship all their cards with 128k of flash now. It was over a year ago that most of them didn't.
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  • Reply 108 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    Yes, some manufacturers use non-reference designs. I have no idea what parts they use. However, Apple's graphics cards are always reference designs, the only thing they're usually missing is the S-video port. And the 8800GT pictured on the Apple store clearly looks like a reference card.



    Apart from leaving out the s-video connector, the only thing Apple's OEM would change is the ROM for the firmware. And hell, I don't know that Nvidia isn't making its board partners ship all their cards with 128k of flash now. It was over a year ago that most of them didn't.



    Are you certain of this, because I'm not.
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  • Reply 109 of 123
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,455member
    I'd like more elaboration on non-reference designs. If you mean board / circuit layout they are always reference. Do you mean IC wise?



    I'm with melgross, this is all news to me.
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  • Reply 110 of 123
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    I'd like to throw in an example to back what FPN is saying.



    I'm one of the many that chose not to pay Apple Tax on the x1900xt upgrade kit - I bought a pc Radeon X1900xt and flashed it over to Mac using a procedure that is well documented on the net.



    The only thing that doesn't work on the card is the tv out socket because Apple drivers were never written to support that function.



    I have since upgraded the firmware with Apple's own firmware update for x1900xt available from Apple.



    The upgrade kit from Apple costs NZ$799 - I had my economy version in the box for NZ$420ish - not bad.
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  • Reply 111 of 123
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Are you certain of this, because I'm not.



    No. There is no way to be certain until the cards are out. However, the (few and low-quality) pictures published by Apple are clearly of a reference board. It looks to me like it even has an SLI connector, and since Apple will never use SLI, they would not have had it included on a custom card.



    If it has a larger flash ROM than a typical 8800GT, that obviously won't show in a picture.
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  • Reply 112 of 123
    Half a penny's worth...



    Whatever nVidia and Apple do (or don't) re future Mac Pro's, I tust they'll stay away from that SLI flimflam.



    I have this capability on my SLI PC and two 8800 GTX cards with which to test it out. The power requirements are horrendous and the gains are minimal over one card. If it's gaming you're concerned about have no fears there as Apple will never dirty their corporate hands with such frivolity.



    Most contemporary games are being built for consoles (first and foremost) and end up so linear it's like a return to the days of arcading. DirectX brings nothing essential to the table (unless you call bugs essential). The best games are about applied intelligence and innovative creativity. The qualities pre-MS Bungie had in sheds and which most games companies sorely lack.



    The one game I played on my PC gaming rig with SLI enabled was Crysis and that was a heap of junk. (FarCry was considerably more exciting and pivotal). Adding in the second card did not turn Crysis into a good game let a lone a great one (Hyped to the rafters!). I can see no earthly reason for forking out a few thousand grand to play a few truly mediocre PC games a year.



    You know what that ends up costing the upgrader/overclocker gaming nutters on a per game basis?!



    Please, let's keep these people away from the Mac (as far away as possible) and they can take their bleeding edge technologies with them.



    Apple will incoroprate graphics subsystems when they are of worth and not of whim.
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  • Reply 113 of 123
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    Amen - and welcome to AI Bstr - hey, just out of interest how does the X1900XT stack up against the 8800 gtx's ?

    I haven't seen any comparisons around yet. Was waiting until Barefeats had some tests up.



    That's if you know of course - heh.
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  • Reply 114 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    No. There is no way to be certain until the cards are out. However, the (few and low-quality) pictures published by Apple are clearly of a reference board. It looks to me like it even has an SLI connector, and since Apple will never use SLI, they would not have had it included on a custom card.



    If it has a larger flash ROM than a typical 8800GT, that obviously won't show in a picture.



    I don't see the SLI port on the board on the picture from Apple's site. It is pretty small, but other pictures of the same board, but not from Apple, taken from the same angle, and the same size, clearly show the port on the top. I'd have to see the pic you're talking about.



    This is the one from Apple's site:



    http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...art=MB137Z%2FA



    clearly, no port.



    Here's a non Apple board. Go to the bottom of the page, almost, to where it says "Current Real Time Testing". The blu/grey board under that, almost the same angle, even smaller pic, clearly shows the connector.



    http://www.rbmods.com/Articles/Asus/8800gt_top/1.php



    This question is still open.



    However, there is another one. At least some of these boards have HDCP.



    Does Apple's?
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  • Reply 115 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bloodshotrollin'red View Post


    Half a penny's worth...



    Whatever nVidia and Apple do (or don't) re future Mac Pro's, I tust they'll stay away from that SLI flimflam.



    I have this capability on my SLI PC and two 8800 GTX cards with which to test it out. The power requirements are horrendous and the gains are minimal over one card. If it's gaming you're concerned about have no fears there as Apple will never dirty their corporate hands with such frivolity.



    Most contemporary games are being built for consoles (first and foremost) and end up so linear it's like a return to the days of arcading. DirectX brings nothing essential to the table (unless you call bugs essential). The best games are about applied intelligence and innovative creativity. The qualities pre-MS Bungie had in sheds and which most games companies sorely lack.



    The one game I played on my PC gaming rig with SLI enabled was Crysis and that was a heap of junk. (FarCry was considerably more exciting and pivotal). Adding in the second card did not turn Crysis into a good game let a lone a great one (Hyped to the rafters!). I can see no earthly reason for forking out a few thousand grand to play a few truly mediocre PC games a year.



    You know what that ends up costing the upgrader/overclocker gaming nutters on a per game basis?!



    Please, let's keep these people away from the Mac (as far away as possible) and they can take their bleeding edge technologies with them.



    Apple will incoroprate graphics subsystems when they are of worth and not of whim.



    I agree with this. With all the talk about Crossfire and SLI, the evidence is that almost no one uses it. Even the tech sites that harp on this admit that.



    I would have preferred that Apple supplied the GTX. OR, they could have supplied the 8800GT AND the 8800 Ultra. I would LOVE to see them provide the 9800 GX2 when it becomes available late Feb-early March. but what is the chance of that?



    Maybe when Nehalem comes out later this year, hopefully.



    http://www.maxitmag.com/hardware-rev...-and-pics.html
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  • Reply 116 of 123
    robmrobm Posts: 1,068member
    Sorry to butt in again Mel, but if it's anything like the X1900, just the back plate will be different.

    Apple even displayed their version of the x1900 upgrade kit to look a little different than a pc ATI's - don't ask me to remember the detail. It was a year ago - IIRC it was only the back plate in that case that looked different ... and I'll nearly bet the farm that the Apple supplied kits have tv out there - just that the on board cables are terminated on the card, no plug.



    Yes - No Hdcp, because Apple won't enable it in the ROM.



    <speculation>I'd expect that the Apple Rom for the 8800 will be in the wild within a couple of months.<speculation>
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  • Reply 117 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RobM View Post


    Sorry to butt in again Mel, but if it's anything like the X1900, just the back plate will be different.

    Apple even displayed their version of the x1900 upgrade kit to look a little different than a pc ATI's - don't ask me to remember the detail. It was a year ago - IIRC it was only the back plate in that case that looked different ... and I'll nearly bet the farm that the Apple supplied kits have tv out there - just that the on board cables are terminated on the card, no plug.



    Yes - No Hdcp, because Apple won't enable it in the ROM.



    <speculation>I'd expect that the Apple Rom for the 8800 will be in the wild within a couple of months.<speculation>



    It's all speculation right now.



    But I wouldn't bet against HDCP just yet. If Apple plans t introduce a Hi Def format, they MUST have HDCP. It must be on the board, they can't insert it later.



    So I suspect that the ATI card must have the capability as well.



    We may not see it now, but a bit of software could turn it on.
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  • Reply 118 of 123
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    This is the one from Apple's site:



    http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...art=MB137Z%2FA



    clearly, no port.




    I'm sorry, but I see the SLI connector in that picture. It's tiny and hard to make out, but it's there. That is a reference board.
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  • Reply 119 of 123
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    I'm sorry, but I see the SLI connector in that picture. It's tiny and hard to make out, but it's there. That is a reference board.



    I don't see it at all.



    Where are you claiming it is? It clearly isn't where it is on every other board.
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  • Reply 120 of 123
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I don't see it at all.



    Where are you claiming it is? It clearly isn't where it is on every other board.



    It's barely visible, through the vent holes on the plastic shroud that covers the heatsink. I should point out that the 7800GT and Quadro 4500 cards Apple used also had SLI connectors.
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