Torvalds pans Apple with 'utter crap' putdown

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Just makes my blood boil:



This is in today's Age newspaper:



Nick Miller

February 5, 2008 - 2:27PM



Apple's much-touted new operating system, OS X Leopard, is in some ways worse than Windows Vista, says the founder of the Linux open source project, Linus Torvalds.



Torvalds was in Melbourne last week for the linux.conf.au conference and was invited to pass judgement on OS X versus Windows Vista in a wide-ranging interview.



"I don't think they're equally flawed - I think Leopard is a much better system," he said. "(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary."



He poured scorn on the modern trend to treat a new version or update of an operating system as a cause for major celebration and marketing.



"An operating system should be completely invisible," he said. "To Microsoft and Apple (it is) a way to control the whole environment ... to force people to upgrade their applications and hardware."



As for his own operating system, Linus said the most exciting developments were Linux's improving green credentials, and a push into mobile devices such as the One Laptop per Child project and Asus's new ultra-cheap Eee PC.



The latter, he said, could be a sign that Asian hardware manufacturers were starting to bypass Western commercial operating systems in order to get more control over their products.



"That's the primary area that open source (software like Linux) is useful. Software is really expensive to produce and takes years. If you're a hardware company you can't really afford that, you either have to be controlled from the outside or take a pre-existing software stack that you can make changes to."



Linux would be an obvious choice for anything from full-blown PCs to phones or video players, Torvalds said.



"I think it's one pretty exciting possibility and it's where the market really wants to go," he said. "The hardware in a mobile device now outweighs anything in a desktop 15 years ago - which is where Linux came from. The (Linux) kernel is already being used in things like cell phones, but the problems have been in the UI (user interface)."



He said he finally saw Linux as able to boast genuine green credentials, after years of hard work.



He and fellow programmers modified almost every part of the operating system's core to improve power management. They also enhanced the ability to track down the most power-hungry parts of a hardware and software system.



"Everybody wants to be power-aware," he said. "It's not just that you want to be green - it's eating up your batteries."



Linus also praised Google for its contribution to the development of open source software, after a shaky start in which it had been a "black hole" for talented programmers.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 24
    Meh. He's entitled to his opinion. I have a feeling there's a bit of jealousy mixed in with his 'critical assessment'.
  • Reply 2 of 24
    areseearesee Posts: 776member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Meh. He's entitled to his opinion. I have a feeling there's a bit of jealousy mixed in with his 'critical assessment'.



    I don't know. Sounds like a combination of the usual marketing drivel and belief (delusion?) in ones' own product. Change the names and you can easily see Bill Gates and Steve Jobs saying the same thing.
  • Reply 3 of 24
    HFS++ is not great, but it's not worse than NTFS. They tell us that macs will soon support ZFS, at which point he can shut up. Also, ext3fs is "crap" too.
  • Reply 4 of 24
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,216member
    Well considering the plethora of Filesystems available for Linux Torvalds is correct. HFS+ isn't crappy but it certainly isn't stellar. However Apple has tossed its weight behind ZFS and I doubt the FS will be much of an issue with regard to its modernity (is that even a f***ing word?)
  • Reply 5 of 24
    That reads like a marketing pitch for Linux.

    No sense in expecting anything to the contrary from Torvalds.



    Heaven forbid an Operating System should follow the same structure as nearly every other program out there (major releases and incremental releases). And heaven forbid a company should try to make their commercial product enticing. Heck, why wouldn't this apply to freeware? Heaven forbid Firefox 3 should have exciting features worthy of promotion. They would certainly be much better off making no fuss about much of anything -- people will naturally migrate to their wonderful browser without drawing attention, right?
  • Reply 6 of 24
    mydomydo Posts: 1,888member
    He's right about HFS+.



    He's excited about Linux going green. Yea Mac OS already had that decades ago. He's excited about mobile devices. Yea Mac OS has that too in a wildly popular smart phone.



    But the file system does suck! He's got us on that!
  • Reply 7 of 24
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,698member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mydo View Post


    He's right about HFS+.



    I couldn't disagree more.



    He said that it is "complete and utter crap". Not true at all. In fact, there are plenty of inferior filesystems available for Linux.



    If you want a "complete and utter crap" file system, see FAT32.
  • Reply 8 of 24
    john.bjohn.b Posts: 2,717member
    Wake me up when my mom can do something really useful with Linux, like e-file her taxes or something. Then maybe it will be relevant.



    When you think about it, for a free OS to have less market share than OS X, Linus has plenty to be bitter about.
  • Reply 9 of 24
    sequitursequitur Posts: 1,901member
    First, let me say that I love Apple OS X and the Mac, but In some ways, I agree with Torvalds. For example:

    "An operating system should be completely invisible," he said. "To Microsoft and Apple (it is) a way to control the whole environment ... to force people to upgrade their applications and hardware."



    I find that most OS upgrades, Mac or PC, do not help basically help me. MOST of what is added to a new OS is window dressing, eye candy, and froth.



    There is a saying that 80% of users use 20% of an application. I think that should be that 95% of users use 5% of an application. I know that any group of users use a different 5% (or 20%) and, therefore, the entire 100% is necessary. I wish I could pare down my OS's and applications to just what I need. Instead, I get a bloated (for me) application, most of which, I can't or don't use.



    Actually, I could use an old OS to do most of what I need to do, but then I run into problems from 3rd party apps or new hardware if I don't upgrade. It's a vicious circle. Apple upgrades the OS; then, third parties upgrade to keep up - an endless upward spiral. I understand that companies are in business to make money and they have to think up goodies and junk to sell to users, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to avoid that upward spiral. It would also be nice if app builders would perfect an app or OS before going on to another new buggy output.
  • Reply 10 of 24
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John.B View Post


    Wake me up when my mom can do something really useful with Linux, like e-file her taxes or something. Then maybe it will be relevant.



    When you think about it, for a free OS to have less market share than OS X, Linus has plenty to be bitter about.



    She can probably do that right now using TurboTax Online.



    BTW, Linux may have less overall marketshare, but I'd venture to guess its marketshare in business environments dwarfs Apple's.
  • Reply 11 of 24
    john.bjohn.b Posts: 2,717member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bancho View Post


    She can probably do that right now using TurboTax Online.



    Its like the mainframe days all over again. You have to trust the TurboTax/Quicken people to store the sole copy of your tax return data on their servers. And in the process hopefully not screw it up, lose it, or somehow allow your it (and your name/SSN/DOB) into the wild. And you have to be eligible for a simple return. Fail. (To be fair, I stopped dealing with those folks the year they introduced TurboTax copy protection to prevent you from loading your own tax return data on a second computer.)



    Besides, ANY rinkydink OS that has a web browser ported to it could meet that a bar that low. Web client GUI != rich client GUI. Hardly a ringing endorsement of Linux's depth and power... Has anyone ported Firefox to the green screen yet?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bancho View Post


    BTW, Linux may have less overall marketshare, but I'd venture to guess its marketshare in business environments dwarfs Apple's.



    Maybe for certain types of servers, very doubtful for desktops. All that means is the Fortune 500 have figured out how to deploy free server software on a free OS without paying Torvalds a dime for his trouble. Interesting hobby that guy has.
  • Reply 12 of 24
    banchobancho Posts: 1,517member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John.B View Post


    Its like the mainframe days all over again. You have to trust the TurboTax/Quicken people to store the sole copy of your tax return data on their servers. And in the process hopefully not screw it up, lose it, or somehow allow your it (and your name/SSN/DOB) into the wild. And you have to be eligible for a simple return. Fail. (To be fair, I stopped dealing with those folks the year they introduced TurboTax copy protection to prevent you from loading your own tax return data on a second computer.)



    Besides, ANY rinkydink OS that has a web browser ported to it could meet that a bar that low. Web client GUI != rich client GUI. Hardly a ringing endorsement of Linux's depth and power... Has anyone ported Firefox to the green screen yet?





    Maybe for certain types of servers, very doubtful for desktops. All that means is the Fortune 500 have figured out how to deploy free server software on a free OS without paying Torvalds a dime for his trouble. Interesting hobby that guy has.



    Well, you asked and indeed it is possible regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.



    As far as Linux on desktops, it's become a lot more prevalent than you may think. In the last 2 fortune 500 companies I've worked at there's been a surprising number of desktop Linux installs. I work primarily in a developer environment but I've been seeing a lot more flexibility lately in what the IT groups allow users to use to accomplish their jobs. I love Macs and all but mine is currently the only one in a building where at least a couple Linux machines are chugging away in any given aisle. These are officially sanctioned installs and not something the "geeks" have smuggled in.



    Does this mean that Linux is better than OS X or poised to dominate the world? Hardly, but it's foolish to think "no one's using that geek OS". You may ding Torvalds for his "interesting hobby" but I'm actually pretty happy with what he's helped produce.
  • Reply 13 of 24
    kcmackcmac Posts: 1,051member
    He should have taken the job when Apple offered it to him....
  • Reply 14 of 24
    copsecopse Posts: 64member
    Why is HFS+ bad? Is it the filesystem per se? Or the structure tree of the files? Like /system /library etc.
  • Reply 15 of 24
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Copse View Post


    Why is HFS+ bad? Is it the filesystem per se? Or the structure tree of the files? Like /system /library etc.



    It's not as fast or as thorough as Reiser, and it doesn't have the advanced archival features of ZFS. If you're comparing it to anything other than those two, it's not crap, but as Reiser is a Linux mainstay Linus felt the need to remind everyone.
  • Reply 16 of 24
    mydomydo Posts: 1,888member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Copse View Post


    Why is HFS+ bad? Is it the filesystem per se? Or the structure tree of the files? Like /system /library etc.



    Last I checked it's case preserving but also case insensitive. That kind of sucks.
  • Reply 17 of 24
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,698member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mydo View Post


    Last I checked it's case preserving but also case insensitive. That kind of sucks.



    You can enable case-sensitivity via the command-line. The problem is that some programs freak out when you do that.
  • Reply 18 of 24
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,698member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    It's not as fast or as thorough as Reiser, and it doesn't have the advanced archival features of ZFS. If you're comparing it to anything other than those two, it's not crap, but as Reiser is a Linux mainstay Linus felt the need to remind everyone.



    Except Linus didn't make any comparisons or mention any other filesystems, he just made an unequivocal statement "their filesystem is complete and utter crap" (emphasis added). That may be his opinion, but it's so extreme and devoid of reason that I'm not afraid to say that it's simply wrong.
  • Reply 19 of 24
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Except Linus didn't make any comparisons ... That may be his opinion, but it's so extreme and devoid of reason that I'm not afraid to say that it's simply wrong.



    You don't need to convince me that he's a brat. What he said: it was almost certainly to get attention, not a substantive remark.
  • Reply 20 of 24
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Yes, HFS+ is old. Yes, there's better out there.



    No, it's not complete and utter crap.



    That is Linus screaming "pay attention to me!" as it dawns on him that Apple has not only the first commercially successful desktop UNIX, but the first commercially successful handheld UNIX (yes, some Linuxen are selling well, but they're not the iPhone).
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