And how many of those Apple notebooks are actually being used to run Mac OS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Why buy Macs for schools if they're not going to use the OS? They'd be paying for an OS they don't use and likely paying even more to get another OS.
Sounds like what my old journalism professor used to call a "Journalistic Opportunity", which he defined as a story so pregnant with potential that all you should need to do is the research and verification, and let the story basically write itself. Why don't you guys find out for us and report back?
And how many of those Apple notebooks are actually being used to run Mac OS?
Most of them, it's pre-installed. After a couple of hours you realise something that a small but rapidly growing section of the user community have been saying for a while. From then on standard rules apply; install Bootcamp, compare windows to Mac Apps for the first time, ditch Bootcamp. Even the LINUX crowd tend to hang on to OSX (I'm told it's something to do with good HW/SW integration).
Why would you buy a MacBook to run Windows or LINUX when there are so many cheaper 'alternatives' ?
I was feeling a little (ok, a lot) annoyed that I had purchased a Macbook right before the updated versions with Penryn chips came out, because I had read that the SSE4 instructions that the Penryns have can be used to dramatically speed up video and 3D rendering. After some more through research, however, it seems that the benchmarks that are being thrown around to illustrate this ?fact? are obtained by using versions of software that are only optimized for SSE4. That is, they do not take advantage of the capabilities of the pre-Penryn Merom chips and create an artificially wide performance delta. For shame, DivX and Intel! At least AnandTech can still be trusted.
I would have still preferred the new Macbook with "only" 3mb of cache becasue it has a bigger hard drive, more memory and a faster clock speed. I've updated mine to 4gb, and I'll be getting an external HD to take advantage of Time Machine. Since SSE4 doesn't seem as important as some would have led us to believe and the extra 1mb of cache on the 2.2 Merom chips helps it to try to keep with the 2.4, I don't feel quite so bad about buying just before the update came out.
Even with the smaller cache, I think the new Macbooks are an excellent product, and would not hesitate to buy one if I was still in the market.
...Since SSE4 doesn't seem as important as some would have led us to believe...
o_O Who led you to believe that? SSE4 will only be important if developers use SSE4. I've never read the contrary in any review. I think that you confused developers excitement with SSE4 with actual "magic" performance gains.
A new bridge in the city will only be useful if people actually make use of it, right?
SSE4 is no different from any other set of instructions: they are only useful if you make use of them, and that generally only happens after some time, when developers have had time to make those optimizations.
Sounds like what my old journalism professor used to call a "Journalistic Opportunity", which he defined as a story so pregnant with potential that all you should need to do is the research and verification, and let the story basically write itself. Why don't you guys find out for us and report back?
I'm not a journalist, nor do I pretend to be, unlike the writers for some web sites.
o_O Who led you to believe that? SSE4 will only be important if developers use SSE4. I've never read the contrary in any review. I think that you confused developers excitement with SSE4 with actual "magic" performance gains.
A new bridge in the city will only be useful if people actually make use of it, right?
SSE4 is no different from any other set of instructions: they are only useful if you make use of them, and that generally only happens after some time, when developers have had time to make those optimizations.
"Judging by Intel's benchmarks, the speedups that SSE4 and related vector hardware and system bandwidth improvements afford are fairly significant." - Jon Stokes, ars technica
Re: "I think that you confused developers excitement with SSE4 with actual "magic" performance gains. A new bridge in the city will only be useful if people actually make use of it, right? SSE4 is no different from any other set of instructions: they are only useful if you make use of them, and that generally only happens after some time, when developers have had time to make those optimizations.
Perhaps I was not clear. My original assertion was that SSE4 is not nearly as helpful as originally thought, even if coders try to implement it in "optimized" software. The basis for this assertion is that the gains made by software that has been used to demonstrate SSE4's power did not include code that woud allow a non-SSE4-enabled chip to run it normally, and because it is perceived as relatively "useless" by the h.264 developers themselves.
"The "huge gains" are completely contrived BS. The SAD ESA instruction, the source behind the supposed "huge gains," is not only useless unless an exhaustive search is used, but its slower than the mathematically equivalent sequential elimination algorithm (SEA) implemented in software. Since x264 already uses SEA (which was recently boosted in speed by over 30% in rev. 717), the new instruction is even more useless than it already was." - Dark Shikari
"SSE4 will help here and there, but nothing groundbreaking, and nothing that would beat algorithmic refinements such as SEA vs ESA (ie, brute force, aka SSEx, can't beat brain, especially Loren's it seems...) "- Manao
I'm not a journalist, nor do I pretend to be, unlike the writers for some web sites.
Of course not, you are too busy telling people what laptop computer they should or shouldn't buy. As if you are somehow responsible for critiquing other people's financial decisions...
The fact is that the only mainstream way to run both OS X and Windows (or OS X and Linux for that matter) on a laptop is to buy an Apple laptop. Regardless whether you agree, it has become the low-risk way to try OS X without committing to it. The people who find an advantage in that will buy an Apple, the ones that don't will buy something else.
Of course not, you are too busy telling people what laptop computer they should or shouldn't buy. As if you are somehow responsible for critiquing other people's financial decisions...
I never said that. I think you're reading something that isn't there and wasn't intended, as if you're not paying attention to the context.
Quote:
The fact is that the only mainstream way to run both OS X and Windows (or OS X and Linux for that matter) on a laptop is to buy an Apple laptop. Regardless whether you agree, it has become the low-risk way to try OS X without committing to it. The people who find an advantage in that will buy an Apple, the ones that don't will buy something else.
I really don't disagree with that at all, it's pretty sensible in my opinion. But that is a different situation.
What I got was that Haggar was suggesting that maybe a lot of those Macs purchased by schools might not be purchased with any intent to use OS X at all. My response was in that view.
I think it's fine for individuals to decide after purchase how much of what OS they use, but when it comes to making a bulk purchase hundreds of machines for a school, I think they should have fully examined that before making the purchase order. Which is pretty much why I doubt that a lot of Macs in education aren't using OS X at all. I can imagine some, but not significant number. That's all.
I never said that. I think you're reading something that isn't there and wasn't intended, as if you're not paying attention to the context.
Well I obviously misread your intent then. Mea culpa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
What I got was that Haggar was suggesting that maybe a lot of those Macs purchased by schools might not be purchased with any intent to use OS X at all. My response was in that view.
They will obviously come with OS X out of the box. It would be interesting to see if schools hand them out as delivered from the factory or if they will try to customize the deployment in the same the way businesses do with "standardized images" with preconfigured networking, applications, etc. A case could even be made to deploy them with Boot Camp and XP preconfigured. My guess is that there will be a lot of dual boot or Parallels/vmware MacBooks regardless of how they were originally deployed; every switcher seems to have that one Windows app they can't seem to get away from. Is it better or worse to include an XP license with the MacBook (ala MacMall)? The answer probably depends on whether you are asking the question from a support perspective or usability perspective. But I doubt that many students will completely wipe OS X off their MacBooks.
BTW, I was being serious earlier, with a little bit of proper research it would make a great story, for either the web media or print media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I think it's fine for individuals to decide after purchase how much of what OS they use, but when it comes to making a bulk purchase hundreds of machines for a school, I think they should have fully examined that before making the purchase order. Which is pretty much why I doubt that a lot of Macs in education aren't using OS X at all. I can imagine some, but not significant number. That's all.
Yes, the students (and in the case of public universities, taxpayers) are footing the bill. But in an age where even high schools are deploying laptops to students, its not surprising to see smaller colleges doing this to attract students which IMO is what this is really about. Clearly from the perspective of the schools and Apple, this is a win-win. BTW, a Linux fan could make the exact same case against the myriad of schools that are deploying Windows-based laptops to freshman.
I would suggest the students themselves would want to fully examine their colleges and universities before enrolling in one. If a student had serious objections it wouldn't be hard to pick out the type of schools that would be prone to this sort of thing, I would guess the marketing literature would have lots of tale-tell signs. And IMO that holds whether the laptops come with Windows or OS X or Linux.
Perhaps I was not clear. My original assertion was that SSE4 is not nearly as helpful as originally thought, even if coders try to implement it in "optimized" software. The basis for this assertion is that the gains made by software that has been used to demonstrate SSE4's power did not include code that woud allow a non-SSE4-enabled chip to run it normally, and because it is perceived as relatively "useless" by the h.264 developers themselves.
"The "huge gains" are completely contrived BS. The SAD ESA instruction, the source behind the supposed "huge gains," is not only useless unless an exhaustive search is used, but its slower than the mathematically equivalent sequential elimination algorithm (SEA) implemented in software. Since x264 already uses SEA (which was recently boosted in speed by over 30% in rev. 717), the new instruction is even more useless than it already was." - Dark Shikari
"SSE4 will help here and there, but nothing groundbreaking, and nothing that would beat algorithmic refinements such as SEA vs ESA (ie, brute force, aka SSEx, can't beat brain, especially Loren's it seems...) "- Manao
-Switchy McSwitcher
I assume my "defeat". Thanks for the input. My ignorance in this matter (SEA vs ESA) makes me realize that SSE4 is nothing but useless :-/ Sad to learn this.
I assume my "defeat". Thanks for the input. My ignorance in this matter (SEA vs ESA) makes me realize that SSE4 is nothing but useless :-/ Sad to learn this.
Defeat? You're making me feel bad. Not as bad as buying a Macbook one day before the update, but still...
Defeat? You're making me feel bad. Not as bad as buying a Macbook one day before the update, but still...
-Switchy McSwitcher
I was pretty arrogant and you put me in my place. Everyone needs a reminder every once in a while :-)
Oh, and you can still give it back and get the new one for no charge anyway, right? I'd say it's worth the fuss for a cooler lap, better battery, less fan noise and a bigger hard drive :-D
I was pretty arrogant and you put me in my place. Everyone needs a reminder every once in a while :-)
Oh, and you can still give it back and get the new one for no charge anyway, right? I'd say it's worth the fuss for a cooler lap, better battery, less fan noise and a bigger hard drive :-D
I bought from www.newegg.com. No refund, no exchange. Hence my exhaustive search to determine what I was missing with a chip that lacked SSE4. I would have gladly traded it in for the new one if I could have. Still, the one I have works great and I don't feel that I missed a huge paradigm shift by not getting a Penryn chip.
Comments
And how many of those Apple notebooks are actually being used to run Mac OS?
Same questioncan be asked how many people are buying a Vista PC and replacing with XP or buying an XP PC and replacing with Linux or OSx86.
Either way, they are getting paid for the HW and OS.
And how many of those Apple notebooks are actually being used to run Mac OS?
Why buy Macs for schools if they're not going to use the OS? They'd be paying for an OS they don't use and likely paying even more to get another OS.
And how many of those Apple notebooks are actually being used to run Mac OS?
Why buy Macs for schools if they're not going to use the OS? They'd be paying for an OS they don't use and likely paying even more to get another OS.
Sounds like what my old journalism professor used to call a "Journalistic Opportunity", which he defined as a story so pregnant with potential that all you should need to do is the research and verification, and let the story basically write itself. Why don't you guys find out for us and report back?
And how many of those Apple notebooks are actually being used to run Mac OS?
Most of them, it's pre-installed. After a couple of hours you realise something that a small but rapidly growing section of the user community have been saying for a while. From then on standard rules apply; install Bootcamp, compare windows to Mac Apps for the first time, ditch Bootcamp. Even the LINUX crowd tend to hang on to OSX (I'm told it's something to do with good HW/SW integration).
Why would you buy a MacBook to run Windows or LINUX when there are so many cheaper 'alternatives' ?
McD
I would have still preferred the new Macbook with "only" 3mb of cache becasue it has a bigger hard drive, more memory and a faster clock speed. I've updated mine to 4gb, and I'll be getting an external HD to take advantage of Time Machine. Since SSE4 doesn't seem as important as some would have led us to believe and the extra 1mb of cache on the 2.2 Merom chips helps it to try to keep with the 2.4, I don't feel quite so bad about buying just before the update came out.
Even with the smaller cache, I think the new Macbooks are an excellent product, and would not hesitate to buy one if I was still in the market.
-Switchy McSwitcher
...Since SSE4 doesn't seem as important as some would have led us to believe...
o_O Who led you to believe that? SSE4 will only be important if developers use SSE4. I've never read the contrary in any review. I think that you confused developers excitement with SSE4 with actual "magic" performance gains.
A new bridge in the city will only be useful if people actually make use of it, right?
SSE4 is no different from any other set of instructions: they are only useful if you make use of them, and that generally only happens after some time, when developers have had time to make those optimizations.
Sounds like what my old journalism professor used to call a "Journalistic Opportunity", which he defined as a story so pregnant with potential that all you should need to do is the research and verification, and let the story basically write itself. Why don't you guys find out for us and report back?
I'm not a journalist, nor do I pretend to be, unlike the writers for some web sites.
o_O Who led you to believe that? SSE4 will only be important if developers use SSE4. I've never read the contrary in any review. I think that you confused developers excitement with SSE4 with actual "magic" performance gains.
A new bridge in the city will only be useful if people actually make use of it, right?
SSE4 is no different from any other set of instructions: they are only useful if you make use of them, and that generally only happens after some time, when developers have had time to make those optimizations.
Re: Who led you to believe that?
Here's one of many:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...ance-sse4.html
"Judging by Intel's benchmarks, the speedups that SSE4 and related vector hardware and system bandwidth improvements afford are fairly significant." - Jon Stokes, ars technica
Re: "I think that you confused developers excitement with SSE4 with actual "magic" performance gains. A new bridge in the city will only be useful if people actually make use of it, right? SSE4 is no different from any other set of instructions: they are only useful if you make use of them, and that generally only happens after some time, when developers have had time to make those optimizations.
Perhaps I was not clear. My original assertion was that SSE4 is not nearly as helpful as originally thought, even if coders try to implement it in "optimized" software. The basis for this assertion is that the gains made by software that has been used to demonstrate SSE4's power did not include code that woud allow a non-SSE4-enabled chip to run it normally, and because it is perceived as relatively "useless" by the h.264 developers themselves.
See the link in my post. -Switchy McSwitcher
I'm not a journalist, nor do I pretend to be, unlike the writers for some web sites.
Of course not, you are too busy telling people what laptop computer they should or shouldn't buy.
The fact is that the only mainstream way to run both OS X and Windows (or OS X and Linux for that matter) on a laptop is to buy an Apple laptop. Regardless whether you agree, it has become the low-risk way to try OS X without committing to it. The people who find an advantage in that will buy an Apple, the ones that don't will buy something else.
Of course not, you are too busy telling people what laptop computer they should or shouldn't buy.
I never said that. I think you're reading something that isn't there and wasn't intended, as if you're not paying attention to the context.
The fact is that the only mainstream way to run both OS X and Windows (or OS X and Linux for that matter) on a laptop is to buy an Apple laptop. Regardless whether you agree, it has become the low-risk way to try OS X without committing to it. The people who find an advantage in that will buy an Apple, the ones that don't will buy something else.
I really don't disagree with that at all, it's pretty sensible in my opinion. But that is a different situation.
What I got was that Haggar was suggesting that maybe a lot of those Macs purchased by schools might not be purchased with any intent to use OS X at all. My response was in that view.
I think it's fine for individuals to decide after purchase how much of what OS they use, but when it comes to making a bulk purchase hundreds of machines for a school, I think they should have fully examined that before making the purchase order. Which is pretty much why I doubt that a lot of Macs in education aren't using OS X at all. I can imagine some, but not significant number. That's all.
I never said that. I think you're reading something that isn't there and wasn't intended, as if you're not paying attention to the context.
Well I obviously misread your intent then. Mea culpa.
What I got was that Haggar was suggesting that maybe a lot of those Macs purchased by schools might not be purchased with any intent to use OS X at all. My response was in that view.
They will obviously come with OS X out of the box. It would be interesting to see if schools hand them out as delivered from the factory or if they will try to customize the deployment in the same the way businesses do with "standardized images" with preconfigured networking, applications, etc. A case could even be made to deploy them with Boot Camp and XP preconfigured. My guess is that there will be a lot of dual boot or Parallels/vmware MacBooks regardless of how they were originally deployed; every switcher seems to have that one Windows app they can't seem to get away from. Is it better or worse to include an XP license with the MacBook (ala MacMall)? The answer probably depends on whether you are asking the question from a support perspective or usability perspective. But I doubt that many students will completely wipe OS X off their MacBooks.
BTW, I was being serious earlier, with a little bit of proper research it would make a great story, for either the web media or print media.
I think it's fine for individuals to decide after purchase how much of what OS they use, but when it comes to making a bulk purchase hundreds of machines for a school, I think they should have fully examined that before making the purchase order. Which is pretty much why I doubt that a lot of Macs in education aren't using OS X at all. I can imagine some, but not significant number. That's all.
Yes, the students (and in the case of public universities, taxpayers) are footing the bill. But in an age where even high schools are deploying laptops to students, its not surprising to see smaller colleges doing this to attract students which IMO is what this is really about. Clearly from the perspective of the schools and Apple, this is a win-win. BTW, a Linux fan could make the exact same case against the myriad of schools that are deploying Windows-based laptops to freshman.
I would suggest the students themselves would want to fully examine their colleges and universities before enrolling in one. If a student had serious objections it wouldn't be hard to pick out the type of schools that would be prone to this sort of thing, I would guess the marketing literature would have lots of tale-tell signs. And IMO that holds whether the laptops come with Windows or OS X or Linux.
Perhaps I was not clear. My original assertion was that SSE4 is not nearly as helpful as originally thought, even if coders try to implement it in "optimized" software. The basis for this assertion is that the gains made by software that has been used to demonstrate SSE4's power did not include code that woud allow a non-SSE4-enabled chip to run it normally, and because it is perceived as relatively "useless" by the h.264 developers themselves.
See the link in my post. -Switchy McSwitcher
I assume my "defeat". Thanks for the input. My ignorance in this matter (SEA vs ESA) makes me realize that SSE4 is nothing but useless :-/ Sad to learn this.
I assume my "defeat". Thanks for the input. My ignorance in this matter (SEA vs ESA) makes me realize that SSE4 is nothing but useless :-/ Sad to learn this.
Defeat? You're making me feel bad. Not as bad as buying a Macbook one day before the update, but still...
-Switchy McSwitcher
Defeat? You're making me feel bad. Not as bad as buying a Macbook one day before the update, but still...
-Switchy McSwitcher
I was pretty arrogant and you put me in my place. Everyone needs a reminder every once in a while :-)
Oh, and you can still give it back and get the new one for no charge anyway, right? I'd say it's worth the fuss for a cooler lap, better battery, less fan noise and a bigger hard drive :-D
I was pretty arrogant and you put me in my place. Everyone needs a reminder every once in a while :-)
Oh, and you can still give it back and get the new one for no charge anyway, right? I'd say it's worth the fuss for a cooler lap, better battery, less fan noise and a bigger hard drive :-D
I bought from www.newegg.com. No refund, no exchange. Hence my exhaustive search to determine what I was missing with a chip that lacked SSE4. I would have gladly traded it in for the new one if I could have. Still, the one I have works great and I don't feel that I missed a huge paradigm shift by not getting a Penryn chip.
Anyway, nice to make your aquaintance, heffeque.
-Switchy
I can't wait until Apple is the main computer
You mean captures a dominate worldwide marketshare?
Hope springs eternal for the MBA haters.
Its ok not to like the MBA. Its not for everyone.
Its also ok to admit you're wrong.
Keep on saying that, Steve will read it sooner or later.
Keep on saying that, Steve will read it sooner or later.
Maybe I am teh Steve.
Maybe I am teh Steve.
I am Steve.