Filing: Apple conceptualized smart MVNO system ahead of iPhone

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  • Reply 21 of 46
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Outsider View Post


    Is there any real evidence for Apple's "5 year lock-in" with AT&T? I've heard about it and never really seen anything definitive though.



    No. Verizon's CEO came out after AT&T was deemed the officical carrier of the iPhone and said—with sour grapes—that Apple approached them first with a 5 year deal that they turned down.



    edit: I can't find a report that links Verizon CEO turnign down the deal AND stating the 5 year agreement. Where did the 5 year assumption come from?
  • Reply 22 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    No. Verizon's CEO came out after AT&T was deemed the officical carrier of the iPhone and said?with sour grapes?that Apple approached them first with a 5 year deal that they turned down.



    edit: I can't find a report that links Verizon CEO turnign down the deal AND stating the 5 year agreement. Where did the 5 year assumption come from?



    Apple approached an operator in Finland that turned them down. Sonera said an EDGE phone was old technology and Finnish law prevented them from bundling non-3G phones with subscription based contracts. Would this be considered sour grapes? I think Verizon had a chance but did not see it fitting their biz model. Who knows for sure?
  • Reply 23 of 46
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Yeah. Verizon has ZERO regrets I bet.
  • Reply 24 of 46
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    No. Verizon's CEO came out after AT&T was deemed the officical carrier of the iPhone and said?with sour grapes?that Apple approached them first with a 5 year deal that they turned down.



    edit: I can't find a report that links Verizon CEO turnign down the deal AND stating the 5 year agreement. Where did the 5 year assumption come from?



    Beats me man. I keep seeing that number being thrown around like it was bloody obvious to everyone except me.
  • Reply 25 of 46
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Would this be considered sour grapes? I think Verizon had a chance but did not see it fitting their biz model.



    Mea Cupla. Unless Google is gaslighting me, I read the quotes completely wrong. The quotes below reveal excellent?though in retrospect, short sided?responses from Verizon's CEO:
    "We need to let the iPhone hit the market. We need to see what the reaction is, but we don't believe it changes the game plan that we put in place for how we segment the market and what we think will attract the wireless user," Seidenberg said during a news conference at NXTcomm, the telecommunications industry's annual show.

    (source)



    ?We just added four new devices in the past month,? he said. ?The new BlackBerry is flying off shelves. The way we see it, our customers have price points and service packaging that is different.?

    ?The way we come at this is to let the iPhone hit the market,? he said. ?I don?t think it changes the game plan for how we approach the market. But we need to see the impact. The burden is on (AT&T and Apple) to prove the market will change.?

    ?The iPhone will add excitement and stimulation to the market,? he said. ?If we have done our job, then we will be a beneficiary. I hope it does reasonably well.?

    (souce)
  • Reply 26 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Mea Cupla. Unless Google is gaslighting me, I read the quotes completely wrong. The quotes below reveal excellent?though in retrospect, short sided?responses from Verizon's CEO:
    "We need to let the iPhone hit the market. We need to see what the reaction is, but we don't believe it changes the game plan that we put in place for how we segment the market and what we think will attract the wireless user," Seidenberg said during a news conference at NXTcomm, the telecommunications industry's annual show.

    (source)



    ?We just added four new devices in the past month,? he said. ?The new BlackBerry is flying off shelves. The way we see it, our customers have price points and service packaging that is different.?

    ?The way we come at this is to let the iPhone hit the market,? he said. ?I don?t think it changes the game plan for how we approach the market. But we need to see the impact. The burden is on (AT&T and Apple) to prove the market will change.?

    ?The iPhone will add excitement and stimulation to the market,? he said. ?If we have done our job, then we will be a beneficiary. I hope it does reasonably well.?

    (souce)



    Gaslight. Do you know that movie?
  • Reply 27 of 46
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Gaslight. Do you know that movie?



    I assume you mean the version with Ingrid Bergman. There is an earlier one, I think, and a play that they came from. The movie never crossed my mind when writing my previous post, but the term was coined from the movie/play.
  • Reply 28 of 46
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Exactly. Phones poll all the time anyway. They are designed to to this. Apple would not be re-inventing the wheel. This is old news as MVNO's have been around quite a while.



    They've been around, I think the news here is that Apple patented a system that allows it to work with an ever-changing patchwork of providers, possibly turning on a dime if they want to. How useful it really is, is an open question.
  • Reply 29 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I assume you mean the version with Ingrid Bergman. There is an earlier one, I think, and a play that they came from. The movie never crossed my mind when writing my previous post, but the term was coined from the movie/play.



    I was thinking of the movie. Kind of like the old ones. Thin Man, etc....



    Anyway, I am sure Verizon is probably saying ouch, but what could they say considering the success of the iPhone. I wonder if they would respond the same way, if they had the chance again.
  • Reply 30 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    They've been around, I think the news here is that Apple patented a system that allows it to work with an ever-changing patchwork of providers, possibly turning on a dime if they want to. How useful it really is, is an open question.



    When roaming, I can do this with my phone. For this system to work, there would have to be an agreement that the operators will allow their subscribers to roam while in the hone country and this will NEVER happen. In short, Apples system is nothing new considering all mobiles perform this function now. When roaming, they switch from network to network, or the user can pick a network and lock in.
  • Reply 31 of 46
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Anyway, I am sure Verizon is probably saying ouch, but what could they say considering the success of the iPhone. I wonder if they would respond the same way, if they had the chance again.



    Who knows. They are as notorious as Apple for wanting control. Their response so far has been to create a phone to compete directly with the iPhone, which we know can't happen overnight or without a decent UI, and perhaps even the carrier's lowering prices of unlimited data may have been the result of the iPhone's emergence, but I have no proof that they are connected.
  • Reply 32 of 46
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,080member
    Null.
  • Reply 33 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slewis View Post


    They're polling for a connection, not to a central server as described, and in this system they would have to be polling for both the connection and to the central server.



    Sebastian



    They poll the HLR (home location register) and VLR (visiting location register) to see if the phone is allowed to book into a given network. It polls to find its geographic location, can it make calls, can it receive calls. It does not poll just for a connection. The polling is also determined by the network.
  • Reply 34 of 46
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    When roaming, I can do this with my phone. For this system to work, there would have to be an agreement that the operators will allow their subscribers to roam while in the hone country and this will NEVER happen. In short, Apples system is nothing new considering all mobiles perform this function now. When roaming, they switch from network to network, or the user can pick a network and lock in.



    At the basic level, it's similar, but this system looks like it adds a fair amount of complexity in the back end to simplify the user end. Networks would be chosen based on more factors than whether or not you are on your "home" network. The concept of even knowing you are roaming might not apply, and there would be no manual intervention needed, and possibly even no indication.
  • Reply 35 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    At the basic level, it's similar, but this system looks like it adds a fair amount of complexity so that networks are chosen based on more factors than whether or not you are on your "home" network. The concept of even knowing you are roaming might not apply, and there would be no manual intervention needed, and possibly even no indication.



    But for this to work, you would have to have a completely neuter or generic SIM card. Homed to no local network for it to operate seamlessly. If Apple were to do this, they would have to be more than an MVNO. They would have to become a network provider and not just a purchaser of minutes. All MVNO's purchase minutes from someone. When a subscriber purchases an account from said MVNO, the subscriber may see another operator brand in standby but the SIM will still be locked onto the network that sold the MVNO the minutes. For an operator to allow roaming in the home network, they would be committing financial suicide. As I said, it will never happen. (I say never but you should never say never. I know)
  • Reply 36 of 46
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    But for this to work, you would have to have a completely neuter or generic SIM card. Homed to no local network for it to operate seamlessly. If Apple were to do this, they would have to be more than an MVNO. They would have to become a network provider and not just a purchaser of minutes. All MVNO's purchase minutes from someone. When a subscriber purchases an account from said MVNO, the subscriber may see another operator brand in standby but the SIM will still be locked onto the network that sold the MVNO the minutes. For an operator to allow roaming in the home network, they would be committing financial suicide. As I said, it will never happen. (I say never but you should never say never. I know)



    So basically you're saying that this isn't being done, but before, you said that it's been done for quite some time, nothing new, move along..
  • Reply 37 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    So basically you're saying that this isn't being done, but before, you said that it's been done for quite some time, nothing new, move along..



    Sorry if I did not clarify.



    All phones poll and choose a network when roaming. Roaming is the key. In a home network, phones are locked to the operator that issues the SIM card. The same would be true of Apple's proposal unless they had a card that was not locked to ANY network while at home. This card does not exist as far as I know. All operators want subscribers to be locked into the network for which the card was issued.



    Apple's proposal of simply picking a network already exists in a roaming scenario. Do you travel out of the US much or are you located outside the US? I am currently in Finland but will go to Kuwait, France, Belgium, and some additional countries. My card will lock onto DNA while here in Finland but will pick ANY network once I leave Finland. I also have the option to pick a DNA partner in the country where I end up. So once again, Apple's solution has been in place for quite a while and is therefore not new.



    **I need to crash but if you have additional questions, or statements I will answer them later **
  • Reply 38 of 46
    ksecksec Posts: 1,566member
    Well Someone has mention it already. May be it would work like Pay As You Go ( I dont know what is the term in US ). You pay for it per min at a flat rate.



    And then Apple buy the Network resources in bulk. Apple would properly handle the backend like Billing, and most importantly Visual Voice Mail. They could in theory control and maintain the voice quality as well. It could tie it to something like a .Mac Services where SMS, Visual Voice Mail ( or Voice Email ) and your Email, iChat Conversation History are all stored on the server.



    You will be able to access it anywhere on your Mac, Iphone, or ipod touch if you have wireless signal.

    For a Monthly Rate, you get all these services and may be some basic min and data usage. Then you pay flat rate for extra min and data.



    That would simply beat RIM.....



    I bet huge amount of people would be willing to pay premium for this kind of services.



    It sounds too perfect to me...... If it worked world wide it would also mean apple have enough reason to open an Apple Store everywhere in the world.
  • Reply 39 of 46
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ksec View Post


    Well Someone has mention it already. May be it would work like Pay As You Go ( I dont know what is the term in US ). You pay for it per min at a flat rate.



    And then Apple buy the Network resources in bulk. Apple would properly handle the backend like Billing, and most importantly Visual Voice Mail. They could in theory control and maintain the voice quality as well. It could tie it to something like a .Mac Services where SMS, Visual Voice Mail ( or Voice Email ) and your Email, iChat Conversation History are all stored on the server.



    You will be able to access it anywhere on your Mac, Iphone, or ipod touch if you have wireless signal.

    For a Monthly Rate, you get all these services and may be some basic min and data usage. Then you pay flat rate for extra min and data.



    That would simply beat RIM.....



    I bet huge amount of people would be willing to pay premium for this kind of services.



    It sounds too perfect to me...... If it worked world wide it would also mean apple have enough reason to open an Apple Store everywhere in the world.



    For this to work according to your scenario. Apple would have to become a real GSM operator. What others seem to not understand is that the SIM card put into the phone is home locked to the issuing operator. There is not such thing as roaming in a home network. I do not know how to make this easier to understand. There is no way for a phone to hop between networks within the home network. If you roam, you are not bound by these restrictions. To date, no operator allows this as it is not in their best interest.



    As for the "working world wide". It already does. Phones hop networks world wide when they roam. Apple has many global stores already. I pay flatrate for my service already. 10 Euros for unlimited data services (HSDPA speeds). So once again, this is an already implemented idea.
  • Reply 40 of 46
    I have just found this old thread.



    In it, a single mobile phone can make use of multiple networks.



    Wouldn't it be great if Apple re-booted this plan in the wake of the the current situation with AT&T.



    The system would work by iPhone consumers buying airtime and data directly from Apple. In turn, Apple would negotiate voice and data services with multiple carriers around the globe.



    The benefits to Apple consumers would be huge. Coverage would improve - data roaming would finally be affordable. The phone could pick networks intelligently and perhaps even route calls via WiFi if available.



    Sure, the carriers would probably hate it.... Although it would allow carriers to sell spare network capacity without the expense of any customer service and billing. Millions of customers become just one; Apple.



    From a free-market perspective it would be a good thing too. Networks would compete to capture calls - and not simply compete to capture locked-in customers.



    I am sure this will never happen, but having just seen my data-roaming bill. I really wish it would.



    C.
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