Apple said to have signed landmark 3G iPhone deal for Italy

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  • Reply 81 of 121
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,565member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by YTV View Post


    Jesus, i actually feel dumber having to read this bs.



    Look to yourself, not to me.



    You can also go to some of the links provided by Solipsism to try to understand what a contract is if you refuse to understand what I'm saying.
  • Reply 82 of 121
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Interesting I didn't know that.



    Europe is generally stereotyped as being a fair place to do business.



    You can't do much when France doesn't allow foreign ownership of mobile carriers and there are only 3 national carriers. You can't do much when the German government owns 30% directly and indirectly of Deutsche Telekom (which owns T-Mobile).
  • Reply 83 of 121
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,565member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Its not BS.



    If you bought something that did not perform the way you and the seller agreed it would. You have the right to take that person to court and force them to either give your money back or to satisfy the obligation of the product or service you payed for.



    The reason you can do this is because the buyer and seller entered an agreement, which is a contract. Even if no paperwork was signed.



    This is such a simple thing, it's difficult to understand how some can't "get it'>



    I suppose they also think that downloading music or movies is fine. It's that state of mind.
  • Reply 84 of 121
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Knowing your luck, Mr. Meister, I truly hope it does not come with a tilted screen!



    Or any number of other possible problems!



    I'll have the wife pay for it, lowering the chances that my jinx will affect it.
  • Reply 85 of 121
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    You can't do much when France doesn't allow foreign ownership of mobile carriers and there are only 3 national carriers. You can't do much when the German government owns 30% directly and indirectly of Deutsche Telekom (which owns T-Mobile).



    Well, that is wrong. Competitors in Germany do operate, they do offer tariffs being as much as 70% lower in extreme cases and pretty much every single ruling of the government telecommunications regulation office has been against Telekom (the mother company of T-Mobile). This might be due to pressure from the EU commission, but as long as it works, fine. Telekom (even if partially owned by the government) lost around 2 million subscribers in 2007. We do have competition and it is showing results. Every phone user in Germany can freely choose the provider, tariff and the phone separately - I take that over the US situation every single day.



    One single demographic is keeping Telekom/T-Mobile alive. Average age in Germany is pretty high and the vast majority of the population has grown up without any competition in the phone market. Quite a few elderly people have a terrible time keeping up with terminology, tariff options and all the decisions involved. They hold on to what they have, because it works. I needed 18 months to convince my mother to cancel her Telekom contract and sign up for a different landline and DSL provider (for a 65% saving, free installation and hardware included). This does not say nothing about the fairness of competition. It is the competitors task to reach these people, but every single flyer, ad or commercial in existence is 90-100% incomprehensible for this market. Most people will not even figure out they are talking about a phone line at all. "DSL with 16 Mbit and Fastpath, 801.11n WLAN Modem included, domestic flat, friends and family option, happy weekend option... - can I use this to call my children?"
  • Reply 86 of 121
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    iPhone price cut triggers UK sales rush





    Sales of iPhones jumped rapidly throughout England last week, according to reports. O2 stores in London, Newcastle and Birmingham are said to have sold out entirely on April 16th, and only recently replenished their stocks. Meanwhile, a staffer from Carphone Warehouse's Oxford Street store in London says the location received a one-time doubling of daily sales from 30 to 60.



    The rush coincided with a £100 drop in the cost of the 8GB phone, from £269 to £169. The cut is subsidized by O2, the iPhone's official UK carrier, and cannot be found at official Apple Stores. Similarly, the 16GB model is holding universally at the standard price of £329. It is widely believed that Apple and its carriers are clearing inventory in advance of a new 3G iPhone.



    Analyst Ben Wood, of CCS Insight, argues that previously low iPhone sales have been due to a lack of subsidies, which many Europeans take for granted. It is common for Europeans to upgrade their phones without paying any extra fees, whereas the iPhone has not only been unsubsidized until this point, but has remained considerably more expensive than comparable smartphones.






    macnn
  • Reply 87 of 121
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    Well, that is wrong. Competitors in Germany do operate, they do offer tariffs being as much as 70% lower in extreme cases and pretty much every single ruling of the government telecommunications regulation office has been against Telekom (the mother company of T-Mobile). This might be due to pressure from the EU commission, but as long as it works, fine. Telekom (even if partially owned by the government) lost around 2 million subscribers in 2007. We do have competition and it is showing results. Every phone user in Germany can freely choose the provider, tariff and the phone separately - I take that over the US situation every single day.



    What you do think the US situation is?



    For $99 US, we get unlimited minutes --- daytime, night time, weekends, week days. And most people can afford to talk 700-800 minutes a month.



    American GSM carriers don't charge unlocking fee --- they just give it to you for free after 90 days.
  • Reply 88 of 121
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,167member
    Well, Apple better improve the battery life for the 3G iPhone. With WiFI enabled the current iPhone battery will drain in just few hours of browsing the web and making few phone calls. I can't imagine how ridiculously short it is going to be if the 3G iPhone use the same battery without major improvement. Now, with iPhone 2.0 games, IM applications, and other programs (particularly games that uses intensive graphic and accelerometer controls) you have to make sure to charge your phone at least twice a day. A 3G iPhone with short battery life is useless.
  • Reply 89 of 121
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    Well, Apple better improve the battery life for the 3G iPhone. With WiFI enabled the current iPhone battery will drain in just few hours of browsing the web and making few phone calls. I can't imagine how ridiculously short it is going to be if the 3G iPhone use the same battery without major improvement. Now, with iPhone 2.0 games, IM applications, and other programs (particularly games that uses intensive graphic and accelerometer controls) you have to make sure to charge your phone at least twice a day. A 3G iPhone with short battery life is useless.



    According to AnandTech's testing WiFi on the iPhone uses a quarter less battery than EDGE. With the brightness down to the minimum I can get 8 full hours of EDGE usage out of my iPhone.



    I wasn't able to find EDGE to UMTS power usage comparisons between the current iPhone chip and the one Apple will most likely be using. But it won't take more than a day before we have some real world tests about battery life. Hopefully, we'll be able to limit the device to slower data speeds to conserve battery usage if we desire.



    Any iPod battery pack will work, but Mophie is making an extended battery specifically for the iPhone, though it hasn't started shipping yet.
  • Reply 90 of 121
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    What you do think the US situation is?



    For $99 US, we get unlimited minutes --- daytime, night time, weekends, week days. And most people can afford to talk 700-800 minutes a month.



    American GSM carriers don't charge unlocking fee --- they just give it to you for free after 90 days.



    The US situation is (well, was, when I was in DC 6 weeks ago) that mobile phones are normally obtained from the carrier and that the selection is severely limited compared to Europe or Asia. Incoming calls count against the included minutes, prepaid tariffs are very high. According to my US friends (cannot say myself) there is literally no carrier which covers the entire country and the status of 3G coverage is laughable (their words, not mine). Call quality and drop outs are severely worse than in some developing countries (I can witness that myself). I did drive from Washington DC to Dover, Delaware - a fully charged phone (with an AT&T SIM) was drained on arrival (doing one single five minute call from Annapolis, no other usage), that gives an idea about the coverage and signal strength. The same phone (Nokia 6130i) needs one charge every 5-7 days in Germany when not doing calls.



    My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month. There is no unlocking fee with any provider because all regular phones are unlocked in the first place. The only locked phones are those with an above average subsidy (rare, mainly from Vodafone) and those tied to a prepaid scheme (and, of course, the iPhone). I do think these conditions are reasonable and definitely a sign of a working competition. The same service eight years ago would have cost me at least 20 times this amount.
  • Reply 91 of 121
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month.



    Don't forget that Americans are charged for incoming minutes as well as outgoing.
  • Reply 92 of 121
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,565member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    The US situation is (well, was, when I was in DC 6 weeks ago) that mobile phones are normally obtained from the carrier and that the selection is severely limited compared to Europe or Asia. Incoming calls count against the included minutes, prepaid tariffs are very high. According to my US friends (cannot say myself) there is literally no carrier which covers the entire country and the status of 3G coverage is laughable (their words, not mine). Call quality and drop outs are severely worse than in some developing countries (I can witness that myself). I did drive from Washington DC to Dover, Delaware - a fully charged phone (with an AT&T SIM) was drained on arrival (doing one single five minute call from Annapolis, no other usage), that gives an idea about the coverage and signal strength. The same phone (Nokia 6130i) needs one charge every 5-7 days in Germany when not doing calls.



    My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month. There is no unlocking fee with any provider because all regular phones are unlocked in the first place. The only locked phones are those with an above average subsidy (rare, mainly from Vodafone) and those tied to a prepaid scheme (and, of course, the iPhone). I do think these conditions are reasonable and definitely a sign of a working competition. The same service eight years ago would have cost me at least 20 times this amount.



    The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.



    Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.
  • Reply 93 of 121
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.



    Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.



    "Slightly smaller than Montana"
  • Reply 94 of 121
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,167member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    According to AnandTech's testing WiFi on the iPhone uses a quarter less battery than EDGE. With the brightness down to the minimum I can get 8 full hours of EDGE usage out of my iPhone.



    I wasn't able to find EDGE to UMTS power usage comparisons between the current iPhone chip and the one Apple will most likely be using. But it won't take more than a day before we have some real world tests about battery life. Hopefully, we'll be able to limit the device to slower data speeds to conserve battery usage if we desire.



    Any iPod battery pack will work, but Mophie is making an extended battery specifically for the iPhone, though it hasn't started shipping yet.



    Strange!! Apple recommend turning off your Wifi to increase battery like. Personally, I have seen my my iPhone last longer when Wifi is off. I only turn it on when I want to use it, that way my battery don't die on me.
  • Reply 95 of 121
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    Strange!! Apple recommend turning off your Wifi to increase battery like. Personally, I have seen my my iPhone last longer when Wifi is off. I only turn it on when I want to use it, that way my battery don't die on me.



    Of course. Apple assumes that you want to be able to use your iPhone as a phone at any time, but you only want to use WiFi when you are near a WiFi hotspot. It makes no sense to have WiFi waiting for a connection when you are only in an EDGE capable area, so turning off WiFi will increase your battery life. However, if you are near a WiFi hotspot you will do better to use WiFi instead of taxing the EDGE processor for your data which is much less efficient than using WiFi.
  • Reply 96 of 121
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The three biggest carriers cover virtually the entire country. How many German carriers cover all of western Europe, including the British Isles, and parts of Eastern Europe as well? This is without roaming and extra fees of course.



    Germany is a small country. It can't be compared to the US in coverage.



    I do not even think a single carrier is present all over western Europe (unless I am wrong), but at least carriers within Germany do roaming agreements for areas where they have no own coverage and there is no additional charge for the user. I can go to any location within the country without worrying about coverage or extra charges. An iPhone user in the US cannot.



    I know that a 100% coverage in the US may be unaffordable. But I did experience extremely poor coverage in quite a few areas where the population was significantly more dense than in your typical desert. And absolutely every friend from the US visiting me in Germany is singing highest praises about the call quality here, and they all come from bigger cities. Heck, I lived next door to two IBM consultants from Texas when I was working in Thailand - they wished to have Thailands mobile network at home.
  • Reply 97 of 121
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    I do not even think a single carrier is present all over western Europe (unless I am wrong), but at least carriers within Germany do roaming agreements for areas where they have no own coverage and there is no additional charge for the user. I can go to any location within the country without worrying about coverage or extra charges. An iPhone user in the US cannot.



    I know that a 100% coverage in the US may be unaffordable. But I did experience extremely poor coverage in quite a few areas where the population was significantly more dense than in your typical desert. And absolutely every friend from the US visiting me in Germany is singing highest praises about the call quality here, and they all come from bigger cities. Heck, I lived next door to two IBM consultants from Texas when I was working in Thailand - they wished to have Thailands mobile network at home.



    There is no argument that the whole of Europe has a significantly better cell structure than the US. But you have to take some things into consideration. One is that Europe almost completely jumped from GRPS to WCDMA, without hardly using EDGE. From what I'm told. this came at a huge inital cost that is still not accounted for in terms of net profit.



    Also, Europe uses GSM and not a mix of GSM and CDMA networks. But all that is beyond the scope of my knowledge and is only what I've heard, but I do know that the main reason all these things have happened in Europe is due to GeoTechnical* reasons: an average of more than 3x as many people per square kilometer than the US and more evenly distributed number of people over the whole area.



    * That apparently isn't the correct usage of the word. GeoRado, maybe?
  • Reply 98 of 121
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    Also, Europe uses GSM and not a mix of GSM and CDMA networks. But all that is beyond the scope of my knowledge and is only what I've heard,



    Yes Europe uses the same network standard so roaming is easier, each carrier network budget only has to cover an area the size of one medium to small US state. California and Texas each by themselves are two to three times larger than most all European counties.



    While US carriers have had to upgrade older networks, use both GSM and CDMA, and their network budgets have had to attempt to cover nearly 4 million square miles.
  • Reply 99 of 121
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    The US situation is (well, was, when I was in DC 6 weeks ago) that mobile phones are normally obtained from the carrier and that the selection is severely limited compared to Europe or Asia. Incoming calls count against the included minutes, prepaid tariffs are very high. According to my US friends (cannot say myself) there is literally no carrier which covers the entire country and the status of 3G coverage is laughable (their words, not mine). Call quality and drop outs are severely worse than in some developing countries (I can witness that myself). I did drive from Washington DC to Dover, Delaware - a fully charged phone (with an AT&T SIM) was drained on arrival (doing one single five minute call from Annapolis, no other usage), that gives an idea about the coverage and signal strength. The same phone (Nokia 6130i) needs one charge every 5-7 days in Germany when not doing calls.



    My anytime flat rate in Germany is approx. 63 USD (excluding international calls) and I talk about 2,800 minutes each month. There is no unlocking fee with any provider because all regular phones are unlocked in the first place. The only locked phones are those with an above average subsidy (rare, mainly from Vodafone) and those tied to a prepaid scheme (and, of course, the iPhone). I do think these conditions are reasonable and definitely a sign of a working competition. The same service eight years ago would have cost me at least 20 times this amount.



    The DC area (and basically the whole north east side of the US) is Verizon's territory. A European going to the US will bring their GSM phone --- which will not get a good reception.



    Sure incoming calls are counted --- but if you get more than 1.5 times the minutes as European plans for the same price --- then Americans are still ahead. Don't ask why 1.5 times, but that's what it said in some of the literature I read.



    The average American talks 700-800 minutes per month --- so it doesn't matter for us if prepaid tarriff is more expensive. The average German talks somthing like 150-250 minutes per month. The bad effect for the US --- they deploy amr half rate codec which lowers the quality of the voice call.
  • Reply 100 of 121
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    There is no argument that the whole of Europe has a significantly better cell structure than the US. But you have to take some things into consideration. One is that Europe almost completely jumped from GRPS to WCDMA, without hardly using EDGE. From what I'm told. this came at a huge inital cost that is still not accounted for in terms of net profit.



    That's correct. In most countries (maybe all?) the UMTS frequencies were sold by auction and at least in Germany (I do not know the results in other countries) the prices paid were lunatic and to some degree based on assumptions for higher acceptance rates of video conferencing, mobile TV, dozens of value added services that nobody asked for, etc. After they had the frequencies they slowly realized that demand is just not there yet, hardware is just not there yet and prices keep falling. Now that the demand for mobile Internet usage etc. is growing rapidly, prices are almost at GPRS level (the data flat rate for 3G is 8 USD more per month than the one for GPRS in my case) and the EU commission is regulating more and more prices (they regulated roaming within Europe recently and do now look at cross-carrier connections and data roaming). Most of the prices paid for the frequencies will be borne by the tax payers (indirectly by writing off the losses) - I think this is called a zero-sum game?!



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Also, Europe uses GSM and not a mix of GSM and CDMA networks. But all that is beyond the scope of my knowledge and is only what I've heard, but I do know that the main reason all these things have happened in Europe is due to GeoTechnical* reasons: an average of more than 3x as many people per square kilometer than the US and more evenly distributed number of people over the whole area.



    While I do not know the exact numbers myself, this is certainly close enough. We partially compensate for that by using kilometers instead of miles Seriously, nobody can expect a 100% coverage in all parts of the US, when I am doing long tours through a huge national park in the US taking pictures and filming, I rent a satellite phone - no problem. What is quite obvious though is that carriers - even in rural areas - tend to delay investments to the degree possible and that is a situation we do not have here (yet). There are several areas (like DSL coverage) where we do have the same problem, just mobile networks are doing pretty well here until now.
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