Yes I agree entirely, same deal with an Apple TV - I don't think I'll own one of those either.
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Originally Posted by melgross
Not when it's equipped at the required level. It costs at least $349 that way.
As mentioned above, that was the premium bundle, which is largely on par with the Wii. The Core/arcade models are even cheaper but don't have a hard drive. The elite model just has a bigger hard drive and some other extra stuff. Most people go for the premium model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Most bundles are more expensive.
They are still very comparable though. A Wii with Mario at £240 vs an XBox with GTA4 at £270 in my books is on the same price point because GTA4 for obvious reasons is more expensive than a Mario game.
Comparing consoles alone, you can get the Wii on its own for £179 and an XBox 360 Premium for £199 - Amazon have them at £179 and £189 respectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
A three core PPC which is special to the 360, and modified as well is not a generic chip, and cost a good deal of development time, though not as much as the more sophisticated Cell.
Sure they're not standard chips but don't all consoles use custom chips? Apple's top end Mac Pro and iMac use custom chips but they are no more difficult to develop for.
The only development issue they should have is making parallel code to take advantage of the multiple cores but this is fairly easy to do these days with just 3 cores. The 7 or so non-generic cores in the Cell are nowhere near as easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
It's all a matter of personal preferences. Right now, it seems that the choices, and compromises, Nintendo made, were the better ones, as can be seen by the sales figures.
I don't agree that there is a right and wrong. People say the same about apple and their design decisions. Ok great they may be making money but they also have to think about their reputation among consumers as it has a long term impact on the company.
Sales figures show that again in Western countries, the 360 is almost on a par with the Wii anyway ( http://www.vgchartz.com/ ). It's only in Asia where the Wii sales greatly outnumber it.
To say that Nintendo made the better choices because they sell more isn't quite accurate because they are going after a different market from XBox 360 and PS3 owners (add those two consoles together and you see that more gamers are into next-gen gaming). If we were all coerced into Nintendo's model, we simply wouldn't have games like GTA4 at the level it is at and from the 5 or so people I know who have it, they say it's one of the best games they've ever played.
Sales figures also don't take account of games sales, which for loss-leading next-gen consoles is where they eventually make up their money.
I think we're getting away from where this leaves the ATV though. Clearly the Nintendo with the motion controller sells but is it going to be worthwhile to add it to what is essentially a movie box?
No doubt since Apple have movie downloads, they could do a game download service as they will be about the same size. But that ATV already gets incredibly hot as it is so how is it going to handle gaming?
Plus there will be no chance for preowned sales in that distribution model, which is really the only reason I would ever do any gaming at all. I still think that Apple should stop distributing custom boxes for the TV and just license their software for addons to consoles or do the ipod thing.
All that's needed is a hard drive and the consoles all have USB ports, then wifi, which they all have too - though not 802.11n but does anyone have a fully 802.11n network yet? Very few I'd imagine.
Bus powered USB drive = $99 + ATV software. I'm sure they could manage to make the bundle $99 total and this would be far more appealing to people than buying a dedicated ATV box. Plus there are already 50 million+ people who own consoles. Has the ATV even passed 1 million sales yet? At the end of the day, Apple make money on content and also mindshare from their position in digital downloads. Flops like ATV can only do them harm but bundles imply partnerships and appealing to a wider market and it gives them more respect.
I think the real question is, why are you making that comparison? You are maybe confusing the Premium with the Arcade, which lacks a HD and comes with a wired controller only, but the Premium is the "real deal" and gives you the exact same gaming experience the Elite will. With the differences amounting to a larger HD and a HDMI cord included in package, the Elite is really just for bragging rights and/or for media center functionality, which Wii doesn't even try to compete in.
They are still very comparable though. A Wii with Mario at £240 vs an XBox with GTA4 at £270 in my books is on the same price point because GTA4 for obvious reasons is more expensive than a Mario game.
Comparing consoles alone, you can get the Wii on its own for £179 and an XBox 360 Premium for £199 - Amazon have them at £179 and £189 respectively.
They aren't comparable because you can't get the Wii in better packages. despite the thought that the 360 elite is only just a bigger HDD, many gamers have been demanding a bigger HDD. At least it's available. The Wii tops out at the low end in comparison to both the 360 and PS3. The game bundles are unimportant, because there's no reason to think that many people will want those bundles anyway. No more so than you think people will want the higher end 360 and PS3 models, bundles, or not.
Both the 360 and PS3 do many things the Wii does not, and buyers want to do those things. Hence the better models.
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Sure they're not standard chips but don't all consoles use custom chips? Apple's top end Mac Pro and iMac use custom chips but they are no more difficult to develop for.
The only development issue they should have is making parallel code to take advantage of the multiple cores but this is fairly easy to do these days with just 3 cores. The 7 or so non-generic cores in the Cell are nowhere near as easy.
I was talking about developing the special 3 core PPC chip. That wasn't just something IBM whipped up in an afternoon. That was a lot of work. Making a game run in 3 core parallism is also difficult. You should have read all the comments game developers have made over the past two or three years about how difficult it was making games use even two cores, which is why very few PC games do that yet.
Making them work effectively on three is even more difficult.
You are showing a lack of knowledge about parallel processing and programming if you think this is anywhere near being easy.
Read up on this.
The Cell is even worse, with its 7 SPUs and ring memory model.
There's essentially nothing custom about the Wiis PPC chip.
Apple's chips have nothing to do with this question at all, because their "customization" is merely Intel coming out with faster versions for Apple a couple of months, or so, before they are released to everyone else.
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I don't agree that there is a right and wrong. People say the same about apple and their design decisions. Ok great they may be making money but they also have to think about their reputation among consumers as it has a long term impact on the company.
You're getting off track here. This has nothing to do with Apple's computers, or their design decisions.
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Sales figures show that again in Western countries, the 360 is almost on a par with the Wii anyway ( http://www.vgchartz.com/ ). It's only in Asia where the Wii sales greatly outnumber it.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion. The US is the gorilla in this market, and it isn't even close here, OR in Asia. While the PS3 is close in the other markets, the 360 trails fairly well there also. Here is the page:
To say that Nintendo made the better choices because they sell more isn't quite accurate because they are going after a different market from XBox 360 and PS3 owners (add those two consoles together and you see that more gamers are into next-gen gaming). If we were all coerced into Nintendo's model, we simply wouldn't have games like GTA4 at the level it is at and from the 5 or so people I know who have it, they say it's one of the best games they've ever played.
Sales figures also don't take account of games sales, which for loss-leading next-gen consoles is where they eventually make up their money.
These are game machines, essentially expensive toys. The proper decision is the one that helps sell the most toys, just like any other toy. It's interesting to note that other than for Grand Theft Auto, all the other top games for the consoles are for the Wii.
It's also interesting to note that Nintendo is the only company here that has been making good profits on both console sales and game sales, for a total profit on both.
While Sony, last quarter, announced that they were breaking even for their entertainment division, and would again make a profit on it this quarter, as they did through almost every year, except one, for both the PS1 and 2s life, which, by the way, continues to sell very well, often outselling both the PS3 AND the 360, MS is still in trouble.
While THEY have announced they would make a profit on their entertainment division for the FIRST time EVER since coming out with the first XBox (and this includes all money made from game sales and licensing), it isn't actually true. They're conveniently omitting the $1,3 billion write down they had to make for warrantee repair of the units that broke from the serious engineering flaw that was missed due to their rush to get this to market in the run to beat Sony. Estimates are that MS will eventually need to write down much more, as more consoles are expected to break in the future.
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I think we're getting away from where this leaves the ATV though. Clearly the Nintendo with the motion controller sells but is it going to be worthwhile to add it to what is essentially a movie box?
As the ATv is now, that's a tough question. But there are two considerations to make here.
The first is that the ATc is a computer in its own right. not that powerful, but as has been shown by those hackers that have done it, a credible one. It also includes OS X, as does the phone. There is little the iPhone can do that the ATv can't do as well, and with its HDD, can possibly do better. As you know, the iPhone is already considered to be a pretty good game platform. I assume you've seen the demo's of Mario and Life.
The second is that as this isn't a game console, there is no reason to think that Apple will keep the hardware static. Apple can very easily produce a ver. 2 with a stronger cpu, and even a gpu that enhances its game playing power.
So a game controller would fit very well.
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No doubt since Apple have movie downloads, they could do a game download service as they will be about the same size. But that ATV already gets incredibly hot as it is so how is it going to handle gaming?
Mine gets hot, but no hotter than my power amp does, and that's used every day, and never turned off. Ny SA cable box is always very hot as well. These are designed to run hot. I can only imagine that the ATv is designed that way as well. It doesn't really mean anything.
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Plus there will be no chance for preowned sales in that distribution model, which is really the only reason I would ever do any gaming at all. I still think that Apple should stop distributing custom boxes for the TV and just license their software for addons to consoles or do the ipod thing.
We don't know anything about what Apple plans here, so we can't talk about preowned games, though that doesn't seem to be much of an issue to most people. I don't agree with your premise though. I see no reason why Apple shouldn't have its own platform. As a dual purpose machine, it has a very good chance.
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All that's needed is a hard drive and the consoles all have USB ports, then wifi, which they all have too - though not 802.11n but does anyone have a fully 802.11n network yet? Very few I'd imagine.
I don't even like WiFi, though the two iMacs I just ordered for my family have it, and when I get my Mac Pro later this year, it'll have it as well.
But, you are making the mistake many people make. You are thinking of NOW. That's a major error. You must think of the future. In a few years, most will have WiFi n, or even better. It takes time before something new works its way through the system. Whatever Apple does, they are aware of that. It's why, while some of their initiatives have seemingly gotten off to a rocky start, in the end they have prevailed, as everyone else has followed.
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Bus powered USB drive = $99 + ATV software. I'm sure they could manage to make the bundle $99 total and this would be far more appealing to people than buying a dedicated ATV box. Plus there are already 50 million+ people who own consoles. Has the ATV even passed 1 million sales yet? At the end of the day, Apple make money on content and also mindshare from their position in digital downloads. Flops like ATV can only do them harm but bundles imply partnerships and appealing to a wider market and it gives them more respect.
I don't get this last thing about the drive.
But it's thought that Apple passed the one million mark at the end of last year. As more movies come aboard, as is happening now, and as Apple opens up how you can obtain these movies, as they are doing now, the sales will continue to rise.
If Apple also can morph this into a credible game platform, as I feel sure they can do, then sales will rise even faster.
Comments
It's just not your cup of tea.
Yes I agree entirely, same deal with an Apple TV - I don't think I'll own one of those either.
Not when it's equipped at the required level. It costs at least $349 that way.
As mentioned above, that was the premium bundle, which is largely on par with the Wii. The Core/arcade models are even cheaper but don't have a hard drive. The elite model just has a bigger hard drive and some other extra stuff. Most people go for the premium model.
Most bundles are more expensive.
They are still very comparable though. A Wii with Mario at £240 vs an XBox with GTA4 at £270 in my books is on the same price point because GTA4 for obvious reasons is more expensive than a Mario game.
Comparing consoles alone, you can get the Wii on its own for £179 and an XBox 360 Premium for £199 - Amazon have them at £179 and £189 respectively.
A three core PPC which is special to the 360, and modified as well is not a generic chip, and cost a good deal of development time, though not as much as the more sophisticated Cell.
Sure they're not standard chips but don't all consoles use custom chips? Apple's top end Mac Pro and iMac use custom chips but they are no more difficult to develop for.
The only development issue they should have is making parallel code to take advantage of the multiple cores but this is fairly easy to do these days with just 3 cores. The 7 or so non-generic cores in the Cell are nowhere near as easy.
It's all a matter of personal preferences. Right now, it seems that the choices, and compromises, Nintendo made, were the better ones, as can be seen by the sales figures.
I don't agree that there is a right and wrong. People say the same about apple and their design decisions. Ok great they may be making money but they also have to think about their reputation among consumers as it has a long term impact on the company.
Sales figures show that again in Western countries, the 360 is almost on a par with the Wii anyway ( http://www.vgchartz.com/ ). It's only in Asia where the Wii sales greatly outnumber it.
To say that Nintendo made the better choices because they sell more isn't quite accurate because they are going after a different market from XBox 360 and PS3 owners (add those two consoles together and you see that more gamers are into next-gen gaming). If we were all coerced into Nintendo's model, we simply wouldn't have games like GTA4 at the level it is at and from the 5 or so people I know who have it, they say it's one of the best games they've ever played.
Sales figures also don't take account of games sales, which for loss-leading next-gen consoles is where they eventually make up their money.
I think we're getting away from where this leaves the ATV though. Clearly the Nintendo with the motion controller sells but is it going to be worthwhile to add it to what is essentially a movie box?
No doubt since Apple have movie downloads, they could do a game download service as they will be about the same size. But that ATV already gets incredibly hot as it is so how is it going to handle gaming?
Plus there will be no chance for preowned sales in that distribution model, which is really the only reason I would ever do any gaming at all. I still think that Apple should stop distributing custom boxes for the TV and just license their software for addons to consoles or do the ipod thing.
All that's needed is a hard drive and the consoles all have USB ports, then wifi, which they all have too - though not 802.11n but does anyone have a fully 802.11n network yet? Very few I'd imagine.
Bus powered USB drive = $99 + ATV software. I'm sure they could manage to make the bundle $99 total and this would be far more appealing to people than buying a dedicated ATV box. Plus there are already 50 million+ people who own consoles. Has the ATV even passed 1 million sales yet? At the end of the day, Apple make money on content and also mindshare from their position in digital downloads. Flops like ATV can only do them harm but bundles imply partnerships and appealing to a wider market and it gives them more respect.
I don't know why you are making that comparison. The XBox Elite costs $449.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....ci_sku=8301492
The
I think the real question is, why are you making that comparison? You are maybe confusing the Premium with the Arcade, which lacks a HD and comes with a wired controller only, but the Premium is the "real deal" and gives you the exact same gaming experience the Elite will. With the differences amounting to a larger HD and a HDMI cord included in package, the Elite is really just for bragging rights and/or for media center functionality, which Wii doesn't even try to compete in.
Y
They are still very comparable though. A Wii with Mario at £240 vs an XBox with GTA4 at £270 in my books is on the same price point because GTA4 for obvious reasons is more expensive than a Mario game.
Comparing consoles alone, you can get the Wii on its own for £179 and an XBox 360 Premium for £199 - Amazon have them at £179 and £189 respectively.
They aren't comparable because you can't get the Wii in better packages. despite the thought that the 360 elite is only just a bigger HDD, many gamers have been demanding a bigger HDD. At least it's available. The Wii tops out at the low end in comparison to both the 360 and PS3. The game bundles are unimportant, because there's no reason to think that many people will want those bundles anyway. No more so than you think people will want the higher end 360 and PS3 models, bundles, or not.
Both the 360 and PS3 do many things the Wii does not, and buyers want to do those things. Hence the better models.
Sure they're not standard chips but don't all consoles use custom chips? Apple's top end Mac Pro and iMac use custom chips but they are no more difficult to develop for.
The only development issue they should have is making parallel code to take advantage of the multiple cores but this is fairly easy to do these days with just 3 cores. The 7 or so non-generic cores in the Cell are nowhere near as easy.
I was talking about developing the special 3 core PPC chip. That wasn't just something IBM whipped up in an afternoon. That was a lot of work. Making a game run in 3 core parallism is also difficult. You should have read all the comments game developers have made over the past two or three years about how difficult it was making games use even two cores, which is why very few PC games do that yet.
Making them work effectively on three is even more difficult.
You are showing a lack of knowledge about parallel processing and programming if you think this is anywhere near being easy.
Read up on this.
The Cell is even worse, with its 7 SPUs and ring memory model.
There's essentially nothing custom about the Wiis PPC chip.
Apple's chips have nothing to do with this question at all, because their "customization" is merely Intel coming out with faster versions for Apple a couple of months, or so, before they are released to everyone else.
I don't agree that there is a right and wrong. People say the same about apple and their design decisions. Ok great they may be making money but they also have to think about their reputation among consumers as it has a long term impact on the company.
You're getting off track here. This has nothing to do with Apple's computers, or their design decisions.
Sales figures show that again in Western countries, the 360 is almost on a par with the Wii anyway ( http://www.vgchartz.com/ ). It's only in Asia where the Wii sales greatly outnumber it.
I don't see how you come to that conclusion. The US is the gorilla in this market, and it isn't even close here, OR in Asia. While the PS3 is close in the other markets, the 360 trails fairly well there also. Here is the page:
http://www.vgchartz.com/
To say that Nintendo made the better choices because they sell more isn't quite accurate because they are going after a different market from XBox 360 and PS3 owners (add those two consoles together and you see that more gamers are into next-gen gaming). If we were all coerced into Nintendo's model, we simply wouldn't have games like GTA4 at the level it is at and from the 5 or so people I know who have it, they say it's one of the best games they've ever played.
Sales figures also don't take account of games sales, which for loss-leading next-gen consoles is where they eventually make up their money.
These are game machines, essentially expensive toys. The proper decision is the one that helps sell the most toys, just like any other toy. It's interesting to note that other than for Grand Theft Auto, all the other top games for the consoles are for the Wii.
It's also interesting to note that Nintendo is the only company here that has been making good profits on both console sales and game sales, for a total profit on both.
While Sony, last quarter, announced that they were breaking even for their entertainment division, and would again make a profit on it this quarter, as they did through almost every year, except one, for both the PS1 and 2s life, which, by the way, continues to sell very well, often outselling both the PS3 AND the 360, MS is still in trouble.
While THEY have announced they would make a profit on their entertainment division for the FIRST time EVER since coming out with the first XBox (and this includes all money made from game sales and licensing), it isn't actually true. They're conveniently omitting the $1,3 billion write down they had to make for warrantee repair of the units that broke from the serious engineering flaw that was missed due to their rush to get this to market in the run to beat Sony. Estimates are that MS will eventually need to write down much more, as more consoles are expected to break in the future.
I think we're getting away from where this leaves the ATV though. Clearly the Nintendo with the motion controller sells but is it going to be worthwhile to add it to what is essentially a movie box?
As the ATv is now, that's a tough question. But there are two considerations to make here.
The first is that the ATc is a computer in its own right. not that powerful, but as has been shown by those hackers that have done it, a credible one. It also includes OS X, as does the phone. There is little the iPhone can do that the ATv can't do as well, and with its HDD, can possibly do better. As you know, the iPhone is already considered to be a pretty good game platform. I assume you've seen the demo's of Mario and Life.
The second is that as this isn't a game console, there is no reason to think that Apple will keep the hardware static. Apple can very easily produce a ver. 2 with a stronger cpu, and even a gpu that enhances its game playing power.
So a game controller would fit very well.
No doubt since Apple have movie downloads, they could do a game download service as they will be about the same size. But that ATV already gets incredibly hot as it is so how is it going to handle gaming?
Mine gets hot, but no hotter than my power amp does, and that's used every day, and never turned off. Ny SA cable box is always very hot as well. These are designed to run hot. I can only imagine that the ATv is designed that way as well. It doesn't really mean anything.
Plus there will be no chance for preowned sales in that distribution model, which is really the only reason I would ever do any gaming at all. I still think that Apple should stop distributing custom boxes for the TV and just license their software for addons to consoles or do the ipod thing.
We don't know anything about what Apple plans here, so we can't talk about preowned games, though that doesn't seem to be much of an issue to most people. I don't agree with your premise though. I see no reason why Apple shouldn't have its own platform. As a dual purpose machine, it has a very good chance.
All that's needed is a hard drive and the consoles all have USB ports, then wifi, which they all have too - though not 802.11n but does anyone have a fully 802.11n network yet? Very few I'd imagine.
I don't even like WiFi, though the two iMacs I just ordered for my family have it, and when I get my Mac Pro later this year, it'll have it as well.
But, you are making the mistake many people make. You are thinking of NOW. That's a major error. You must think of the future. In a few years, most will have WiFi n, or even better. It takes time before something new works its way through the system. Whatever Apple does, they are aware of that. It's why, while some of their initiatives have seemingly gotten off to a rocky start, in the end they have prevailed, as everyone else has followed.
Bus powered USB drive = $99 + ATV software. I'm sure they could manage to make the bundle $99 total and this would be far more appealing to people than buying a dedicated ATV box. Plus there are already 50 million+ people who own consoles. Has the ATV even passed 1 million sales yet? At the end of the day, Apple make money on content and also mindshare from their position in digital downloads. Flops like ATV can only do them harm but bundles imply partnerships and appealing to a wider market and it gives them more respect.
I don't get this last thing about the drive.
But it's thought that Apple passed the one million mark at the end of last year. As more movies come aboard, as is happening now, and as Apple opens up how you can obtain these movies, as they are doing now, the sales will continue to rise.
If Apple also can morph this into a credible game platform, as I feel sure they can do, then sales will rise even faster.
Its called a Logitec Airmouse and I have one running on my MacMiniTV for under $200. A MacMiniTV $200 more than an AppleTV and more configurable.
The AppleTV is $230. A Mac Mini + your mouse would be $730. That is a $500 difference.
Its called a Logitec Airmouse and I have one running on my MacMiniTV for under $200. A MacMiniTV $200 more than an AppleTV and more configurable.
There's another company doing it as well. I saw it at the Entertainment Expo here in NYC three years ago, but I don't remember the name.
Nintendo's is more sophisticated than either of those.
There's another company doing it as well. I saw it at the Entertainment Expo here in NYC three years ago, but I don't remember the name.
Nintendo's is more sophisticated than either of those.
Might that be Gyration's Gyromouse?
Might that be Gyration's Gyromouse?
That's it!