Apple wants over-the-air music downloads for 3G iPhone

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  • Reply 41 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Your business is your business to be sure. But network operators see it differently. That's their business, and they have to make a profit, and keep the airwaves open. Sometimes, other than for greed, and I'm not denying that's a part, charging fees prevents people from staying on all the time downloading. If that happens, everyone's rates will go up, or they will start throttling, that is what Cox and Comcast do now with P2P.



    Melgross, I currently live in Finland where more people have cell phones than landlines. Everyone is connected at all times. It is a matter of capacity, and planning for it. The Finns do and do it quite well. I have an unlimited data plan for approximately 15 dollars. This means I can stay connected 24/7/356 and no one will say anything. I have a friend that has two 3G phones that do nothing but stay connected all the time with his 2 Macs. So staying online may be an issue in the States but not for the rest of Europe. The difference is that the US is not used to these types of services and it can be daunting to say the least. So, in my opinion, your argument, while having its merits does not apply here.
  • Reply 42 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    T



    Well this part I can and will disagree with. The companies certainly need to die there is no doubt at all about that, but that outcome can be assured without dirtying ones self with questionable activities. The answer is to not do business with the record companies and the artists signed with them, that are after this. I do mean to "do business" as like it or not most musicians are in it for the money. Keep them from benefiting form a relationship with the big labels and sooner or later they will get the hint. It is not just the purchase of tracks managed by the record companies either, one has to make sure the artist never benefit from any of their financial efforts while signed with these labels. That means no money spent on concerts, tee shirts or anything else offered up.



    Dave



    It's not that simple. The labels put up all of the money for production, distribution, and marketing.



    While it's nice to imagine that one can do without the labels, very few artists would agree. they don't want to get rid of the labels, they want more money, and who doesn't? But the labels have most of these new acts fail. That money comes from somewhere. It comes from the more successful acts. The same thing as publishing.



    It's true for movies and Tv as well. The few big hits pay for all the failures.



    People forget that.



    Where would a beginning act get the backing to produce a high quality album? It's got to come from somewhere, and so far, there's no evidence that wholesale numbers of artists can do it on their own, or that most people are interested in recordings done in someone's basement. As a fad, sure, but not long term.
  • Reply 43 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    That's fine, but don't complain if they are looking out for themselves too.



    Not complaining. If Apple lives or dies it will not affect me one way or another. I will find someone else to sell me what I want.



    Quote:

    We've gone through this argument too many times already here.



    Companies aren't supposed to look out for the little guy. They are supposed to look out for themselves, their employees, and their investors.



    Smart management knows that often the best thing for those three groups is to give the little guy what is the best product, at the best price for what it is.



    Apple has done that with iTunes. you can be shortsighted about it, or you can see through the ruse the labels are playing with Amazon.



    Apparently not nearly enough because some here actually think Steve will be inviting them to dinner or the next board meeting to ask for their input. Sure the record companies are playing a game and so is Apple. Someone will have to win, and someone will lose. I do not care which. As long as I get cheaper songs, I win. If not, I will have to find other ways to get what I want. As for my "short sighted-ness" my vision is fine. I can even see with my wallet sometimes and I see that I am getting better deals, quality with Amazon. I invite you to prove to me how saving money is short sighted.



    Quote:

    I'm aware of that son. It's who wins and loses that matter. If the wrong ones win, then WE lose. You want the labels to win this. Good for you.



    I will let the "son" remark pass, just this once. I guess old age flaring up. If Apple is such the wunderkind that everyone thinks and Steve Jobs is the genius that all proclaim from on high, then the record companies will lose and Steve or (He Who must not be named) will score a victory for all mankind.
  • Reply 44 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Melgross, I currently live in Finland where more people have cell phones than landlines. Everyone is connected at all times. It is a matter of capacity, and planning for it. The Finns do and do it quite well. I have an unlimited data plan for approximately 15 dollars. This means I can stay connected 24/7/356 and no one will say anything. I have a friend that has two 3G phones that do nothing but stay connected all the time with his 2 Macs. So staying online may be an issue in the States but not for the rest of Europe. The difference is that the US is not used to these types of services and it can be daunting to say the least. So, in my opinion, your argument, while having its merits does not apply here.



    If a few people do it, the company usually doesn't care. But if large numbers of people do it, they begin to care.



    Very few people who have unlimited plans come anywhere near that 100% up time. Even here, where my computer DSL is on all the time, as is my daughters, and our browsers are almost always open, meaning that we are "on" all the time, we always aren't at our machines, and there is little traffic coming across, except for the e-mails, which take a few seconds each, every now and then, and Apple's time server connection, active a couple of seconds every minute or so.



    But if a fair percentage of people are downloading a couple of hours a day, that will grow old fast for the cell carrier.
  • Reply 45 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Not complaining. If Apple lives or dies it will not affect me one way or another. I will find someone else to sell me what I want.



    Apparently you don't look to deeply into things.



    Quote:

    Apparently not nearly enough because some here actually think Steve will be inviting them to dinner or the next board meeting to ask for their input. Sure the record companies are playing a game and so is Apple. Someone will have to win, and someone will lose. I do not care which. As long as I get cheaper songs, I win. If not, I will have to find other ways to get what I want. As for my "short sighted-ness" my vision is fine. I can even see with my wallet sometimes and I see that I am getting better deals, quality with Amazon. I invite you to prove to me how saving money is short sighted.



    Apparently not enough is right. The argument is clear. If you don't understand what I said, and can't respond to it, then this isn't a discussion.



    Quote:

    I will let the "son" remark pass, just this once. I guess old age flaring up. If Apple is such the wunderkind that everyone thinks and Steve Jobs is the genius that all proclaim from on high, then the record companies will lose and Steve or (He Who must not be named) will score a victory for all mankind.



    You argue like my daughter does. Skip the points you want to ignore, and repeat the same line.
  • Reply 46 of 102
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    It is perfectly legal for you to burn copies of music you legally own on Blank Music CDs and share those copies with friends provided the transaction is non commercial and the music will be used for personal use. Section 1008 of the Copyright Act allows such use. I suggest engaging in more of that.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hutcho View Post


    What the hell difference does it make to the music companies whether someone is downloading something over a fixed line or 3G connection? It makes no difference to them at all. It will make a difference to Telco's, but that is about it.



    Maybe it's just the fact that they are blood sucking scum. I hope everyone makes more of an effort to pirate music and that they slowly die.



  • Reply 47 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    If a few people do it, the company usually doesn't care. But if large numbers of people do it, they begin to care.



    Very few people who have unlimited plans come anywhere near that 100% up time. Even here, where my computer DSL is on all the time, as is my daughters, and our browsers are almost always open, meaning that we are "on" all the time, we always aren't at our machines, and there is little traffic coming across, except for the e-mails, which take a few seconds each, every now and then, and Apple's time server connection, active a couple of seconds every minute or so.



    But if a fair percentage of people are downloading a couple of hours a day, that will grow old fast for the cell carrier.



    Sorry but I do not buy this argument. Here in Finland you have almost 98% saturation of mobile phone users. Most of the phones here are 3G capable. many to most people do not have a land line. I say again, do not have a land line. So they are either using DSL (only for data), or they are using their 3G modems. The operators know this, provision for this and are doing a nice biz based off of this biz model. Unlimited data here means just that, unlimited.
  • Reply 48 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Apparently you don't look to deeply into things.







    Apparently not enough is right. The argument is clear. If you don't understand what I said, and can't respond to it, then this isn't a discussion.







    You argue like my daughter does. Skip the points you want to ignore, and repeat the same line.



    It must be pretty quiet there with you then when only one opinion, (yours) is the right one. As I said, and will say again, I do not care if Apple lives or dies. It is just one of the companies that currently gets my money. If someone else comes along and provided better service (AMAZON), then I am there. If Apple matches them, then Apple gets my money. This shouldn't be to hard to understand. If I am going to fast let me know. I can even repeat if necessary.
  • Reply 49 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBell View Post


    It is perfectly legal for you to burn copies of music you legally own on Blank Music CDs and share those copies with friends provided the transaction is non commercial and the music will be used for personal use. Section 1008 of the Copyright Act allows such use. I suggest engaging in more of that.



    No, it does not. Copyrght law says that you CAN'T do that.



    You are allowed to lend them the CD. You are allowed to give someone the original CD as long as you don't retain a copy. You are allowed to make a copy for yourself, either as a backup, or to play in another device.



    Would you be so kind as to find the code that supports your argument here in Section 1008, as you specified?



    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...8----000-.html



    Or this.



    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/index.html



    If you can't find it where you said it was, perhaps you would like to look at the entire copyright code.



    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...sup_01_17.html
  • Reply 50 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Sorry but I do not buy this argument. Here in Finland you have almost 98% saturation of mobile phone users. Most of the phones here are 3G capable. many to most people do not have a land line. I say again, do not have a land line. So they are either using DSL (only for data), or they are using their 3G modems. The operators know this, provision for this and are doing a nice biz based off of this biz model. Unlimited data here means just that, unlimited.



    In theory, that's what it does mean. but it's doubtful that there is enough bandwidth being used at this time to qualify.
  • Reply 51 of 102
    flounderflounder Posts: 2,674member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    This shouldn't be to hard to understand. If I am going to fast let me know. I can even repeat if necessary.



    And melgross is saying this play is a long-term loose proposition, because the labels are intentionally undercutting Apple, via Amazon, so they can regain bargaining control and ultimately raise your prices.



    As you say, this shouldn't be too hard to understand.
  • Reply 52 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    It must be pretty quiet there with you then when only one opinion, (yours) is the right one. As I said, and will say again, I do not care if Apple lives or dies. It is just one of the companies that currently gets my money. If someone else comes along and provided better service (AMAZON), then I am there. If Apple matches them, then Apple gets my money. This shouldn't be to hard to understand. If I am going to fast let me know. I can even repeat if necessary.



    You're going so fast, you aren't even seeing the actual discussion.
  • Reply 53 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flounder View Post


    And melgross is saying this play is a long-term loose proposition, because the labels are intentionally undercutting Apple, via Amazon, so they can regain bargaining control and ultimately raise your prices.



    As you say, this shouldn't be too hard to understand.



    Thank you.



    I've been trying to make this point for several posts, but he won't address it at all.
  • Reply 54 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Flounder View Post


    And melgross is saying this play is a long-term loose proposition, because the labels are intentionally undercutting Apple, via Amazon, so they can regain bargaining control and ultimately raise your prices.



    As you say, this shouldn't be too hard to understand.



    And I say again, they can do whatever they want. Apple is not doing us a favor. Apple, aka Steve Jobs is not looking out for me or you. He is trying to get the best deal for his shareholders. If the prices rise and the shareholders get more money, you will see how much Steve comes to the rescue.



    In the end, I will still get what I want from one source or another.



    That shouldn't be to hard to understand as well.
  • Reply 55 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Thank you.



    I've been trying to make this point for several posts, but he won't address it at all.



    If you go back, you will see that I agreed with you and answered that I do not care. Maybe you should read a bit before you hit the enter key.
  • Reply 56 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    If you go back, you will see that I agreed with you and answered that I do not care. Maybe you should read a bit before you hit the enter key.



    I did look, and you didn't respond to that. All you said is that you will buy from the cheapest, and damn the rest, though not in those words.
  • Reply 57 of 102
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,994member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    And I say again, they can do whatever they want. Apple is not doing us a favor. Apple, aka Steve Jobs is not looking out for me or you. He is trying to get the best deal for his shareholders. If the prices rise and the shareholders get more money, you will see how much Steve comes to the rescue.



    In the end, I will still get what I want from one source or another.



    That shouldn't be to hard to understand as well.



    Why do you keep bringing up the obvious? It doesn't matter whether Apple cares or not.



    But, if the labels get what they want, YOU won't get what you want.
  • Reply 58 of 102
    nofeernofeer Posts: 2,422member
    the music labels don't understand their consumers or digital lifestyle. who does most of the ringtones, ringbacks what about teens, hey they don't download "new" tones, they bluetooth them to there friends, so what ever "milk the customer" that the labels have work arounds are there. they (music lablels) don't understand or want to understand the customer...they want control like they had prior to itunes



    as far as amazon, people don't want the amazon interface, us geeks can dig it, but joe and joan itunes, ipod consumer wants simple interface with simple simple simple downloads. amazon won't work as a "competitor": to itunes, with predictions of itunes/ apple getting 25% of worldwide digital music in the next few years (i think i saw that on macnn)

    the music labels want amazon and every other "itunes" killer to grow to kill or hurt itunes...won't happen itunes is it, will be it, and is so dominant that "it" is what the labels will have to deal with. also wait for apple to have the off contract artists sign up. won't be long and won't take much, if the "middle man" is out, apple could keep the same margin and GIVE MORE TO THE ARTIST---gee that's a new idea. gee how many billions does apple have to be it's own label. hmmmmm sounds like another SJ angle
  • Reply 59 of 102
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Good point but unlimited data is unlimited data. I should (in theory) be allowed to download as I please regardless. I am not sure about the contract thing you mentioned. You might be right but I do not think the terms have been released.



    Fine print aside, the contract you have with your carrier only gives YOU access to unlimited/unlimited data. If Apple has signed a contract that states that they can't compete with the mobile operator in a certain way or use their service in a particular manor then Apple must abide by that, regardless of what you desire.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Data is data. If I want to sit and wait 10 mins for a song to download that is my biz, at least give me the chance to do it. SImplicity has nothing to do with it. It is all about choice.



    Yes it is, but before that data is YOUR data, it's someone else's data. We may not mind waiting 10 minutes for a song but the carrier might. You say you are "not sure about the contract thing," but do you really have to have in-depth knowledge of the contract to know that Apple had to concede to certain limitations to get onboard with the current carriers? If you were selling ringtones for $3.99 and offering a unlimited/unlimited data plan for half the price of your other phones would you really allow the excessive purchases of music and ringtones for $.99? If data is data and unlimited is unlimited and you can do what you should be given the choice then you should be allowed to purchase TV shows and movies over that same data network, too.? Can't you see how this there is more than the end-user's contract is involved here?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    Melgross, I currently live in Finland where more people have cell phones than landlines. Everyone is connected at all times. It is a matter of capacity, and planning for it. The Finns do and do it quite well. I have an unlimited data plan for approximately 15 dollars. This means I can stay connected 24/7/356 and no one will say anything. I have a friend that has two 3G phones that do nothing but stay connected all the time with his 2 Macs. So staying online may be an issue in the States but not for the rest of Europe. The difference is that the US is not used to these types of services and it can be daunting to say the least. So, in my opinion, your argument, while having its merits does not apply here.



    Again, your agreement is for you, not for other's trying to piggyback on that network. There is a reason that the iPhone can't be tethered with a Mac when OS X has had the convenient Internet Sharing for so many years now. While there are countries with plans like Finland there are also plenty of countries that seem to have worse plans than the US. Finland's population density and progressive network does not appear to represent the whole of Europe.



    If iTunes Store is allowed to be used over the cell networks then you can bet they will be. I don't see why anyone would think Apple could benefit from not allowing its use.
  • Reply 60 of 102
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I did look, and you didn't respond to that. All you said is that you will buy from the cheapest, and damn the rest, though not in those words.



    Post #35 is where you asked about being naive. I agreed that Amazon is the one being pimped (paraphrase) but still if this is the way the cookie crumbles then it does. Apple and Steve are supposed to be sooooo much smarter than everyone else. This is his chance to prove it. And the fact still remains, I will buy from the cheapest source that satisfies my needs.
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