Sigh. Don't know why I bother... talking to Teno is talkin' to a brick wall sometimes....Yup. But what was even more unrealistic was to expect that a product that the Euros didn't really want (2.5G, no MMS) at too high a price was going to sell in Europe at a US-pace.
Exactly what evidence shows the Euros did not want it? Even at its highest prices it was selling and adding subscribers. As the prices went down it sold even faster. That does not happen to a product that has no demand.
Quote:
Sigh. Teno, if revenues were all that mattered, then Nokia and Microsoft would be much better companies than Apple is. But Apple is the better company, so maybe, just maaaaybe, it's highly over-simplistic to point at similar revenues and go, "Ook ook, revenues same, companies must be just as good as each other, ook ook!"
I said revenue and profit.
The whole point of any business is to make money. Revenue and profit are the direct measurement of how much money any company is making. Yes revenues and profits are most important.
I don't understand your comparison of Nokia, Microsoft, and Apple. All three of these companies are making a lot of money.
Quote:
And even the rough revenue parity will be gone once the VZW-Alltel merger completes. So, does the Alltel acquisition make Verizon a much better company, then? Or just a larger one?
The deal still has some hurdles to clear. But if all goes well with no problems this may happen in the future, but is not the case right now.
Quote:
Again, what you know about the wireless industry would appear to be not much. It's not just revenues, it's how the business is run and how the companies get there. Is any company with revenues similar to Apple just as good as Apple? Nope.
The wireless industry is not the only with metrics that measure how well a business is run. For any industry marketshare, ARPU, churn, customer service are all measurements of a companies operations and its ability to make money. But they are not really as important as the final revenue/profit number themselves.
Is Wallstreet going to punish AT&T for ARPU and churn alone. No, not as long as AT&T continues to make money.
Quote:
If you're referring to Mel and Solip, they sound nothing like you, actually. I never get the feeling that I'm listening to some Apple/ATT press release when they post. \
Accusations of fanboism actually lowers the quality of our dialog.
You said:
"The iPhone has poor sales in Europe because it did not meet carrier sales projections."
I said:
"While not a run away success, Euro iPhone sales have increased new subscriptions for its carriers and added hundreds of millions in new revenue for Apple. Everyone seems mostly satisfied. Because the iPhone is making them money."
You said:
"Verizon has better business operations than AT&T, that makes Verizon a better company."
I said:
"True Verizon has outperformed AT&T in some business operations, both companies have had a huge growth in subscriptions and profits, because Verizon charges more both are essentially tied in revenue/profits."
Both Mel and Solip have in one way or another stated the same as I've said. How is my position a press release for Apple or AT&T?
Exactly what evidence shows the Euros did not want it? Even at its highest prices it was selling and adding subscribers. As the prices went down it sold even faster. That does not happen to a product that has no demand.
The demand was obviously not as severe as the US market, but neither is the Mac market outside the US. I wonder how many early iPhone adopters were lost to European carriers because they obtained them from the US through other channels. We know the iPhone was used in almost every country just months after its launch and the sales were limited and required credit cards to prevent international gray market sales.
Even after the emergence into Europe, looking at the factory unlocked prices in France and Germany it appears to be financially beneficial to buy one from eBay. So I propose that the iPhone demand in Europe is much higher than the unit sales for 3 European caarriers across 5 countries indicate.
Perhaps TBaggins means that the demand was not as high as both Apple and the carriers thought they would be. That seems to be true. But with a 3G version almost upon us with v2.0 software and an assumed same day launch for all countries we should now be able to see how popular the iPhone really is.
I expect it to be phenomenal. Not just because it's 3G and it's a low cost luxry item and status symbol, but also because most complaints about its functionality will be thrown out the window. For example, MMS and video recording will be possible by 3rd-parties if Apple chooses not to add them. The video recording is more complex, but MMS should be available almost immediately, if it isn't already waiting in the wings.
Perhaps TBaggins means that the demand was not as high as both Apple and the carriers thought they would be. That seems to be true. But with a 3G version almost upon us with v2.0 software and an assumed same day launch for all countries we should now be able to see how popular the iPhone really is.
I do agree the combination of carrier lock-in, truncated feature set, and high price tag turned away a great deal of potential iPhone users in Europe.
All signs show Apple rectifying all of these issues. Should lead to explosive sales.
All signs show Apple rectifying all of these issues. Should lead to explosive sales.
Definitely, but I don't think it will be released tomorrow?I'm still thinking of a late June date; Friday, June 27th @ 5pm to be specific?so I sold all my Apple Stock in preparation of a significant drop tomorrow.
I do agree the combination of carrier lock-in, truncated feature set, and high price tag turned away a great deal of potential iPhone users in Europe.
As Meatloaf used to say it --- two out of three ain't bad.
Europeans are willing to take the device --- if the price is low (or free). These people get a free N-series phone with a contract --- and these Nokia BB5 phones were unlockable for 2+ years.
Exactly what evidence shows the Euros did not want it?
LOL... you're still in denial over this? Wow.
Let's see... missed sales goals, the comments of about a zillion Euro users, the existing feature sets of high-end phones already popular in Europe, etc. etc. You know, all the common sense things. Even AI routinely reports in their articles that Euro sales have been lackluster.
So, thank God the 3G iPhone finally came out today, so Apple can start to turn the situation around. Booyah!
Apple understands that they needed to up their game here to do well in Europe, apparently they were less in denial than some.
Quote:
I said revenue and profit.
And provided absolutely NO profit numbers to back your claim up. Which is why you were ignored on that.
Quote:
I don't understand your comparison of Nokia, Microsoft, and Apple. All three of these companies are making a lot of money.
Re-read it then. It's pretty clear to most any reasonable person, and simply goes along with your own "revenues uber alles" logic... which was kinda the point. \
Quote:
The deal still has some hurdles to clear. But if all goes well with no problems this may happen in the future, but is not the case right now.
It's pretty close to a done deal... it's unlikely the Feds will deny it, they'll simply require divestitures in certain markets. And it doesn't change my point, which you don't seem to want to respond to.
Quote:
The wireless industry is not the only with metrics that measure how well a business is run. For any industry marketshare, ARPU, churn, customer service are all measurements of a companies operations and its ability to make money. But they are not really as important as the final revenue/profit number themselves.
I stand corrected then. You not only don't have a great grasp of the wireless industry, but all industries in general.
Quote:
Is Wallstreet going to punish AT&T for ARPU and churn alone. No, not as long as AT&T continues to make money.
Sigh. First off, its hard to determine how much Wall Street is/is not 'punishing' ATT Mobility alone, since the stock traded is that of the overall company, of which ATT Mobility's revenues are only a part. Secondly, how would you know how Wall Street views the wireless sector, considering that you have to have the most basic wireless industry metrics explained to you?
Quote:
Accusations of fanboism actually lowers the quality of our dialog.
The very consistent reality of your own unchecked fanboism has already lowered the quality of our dialog many times over. Sad to say, your main contribution in nearly all cases has been a summation of the party line.
Not saying it isn't valuable (sort of), but it would be nice to see you thinking outside of that particular box more often.
Quote:
You said:
"The iPhone has poor sales in Europe because it did not meet carrier sales projections."
I said:
"While not a run away success, Euro iPhone sales have increased new subscriptions for its carriers and added hundreds of millions in new revenue for Apple. Everyone seems mostly satisfied. Because the iPhone is making them money."
Not exactly. More like, you said:
"I deny that iPhone sales are poor."
*was presented evidence to the contrary*
"Well, okay, but those aren't OFFICIAL numbers!"
*was presented with official numbers*
*Well, okay, but that's just November/Decembers! Things will turn AROUND!"
*things don't turn around*
"Well, okay, but sales in Europe are actually GREAT because there's tons of unlocked iPhones being sold in Europe!"
*no one seems to think that makes Europe sales good*
"Well, okay, but it doesn't matter that Europe sales aren't good because Apple's MAKING A PROFIT on the iPhone in Europe."
*Teno's asked for official iPhone profit numbers in Europe. Can't provide any, other than some odd personal math/guesstimate*
... and so on, and so on, and so on....
Quote:
You said:
"Verizon has better business operations than AT&T, that makes Verizon a better company."
I said:
"True Verizon has outperformed AT&T in some business operations, both companies have had a huge growth in subscriptions and profits, because Verizon charges more both are essentially tied in revenue/profits."
Similarity in revenue in no way, shape, or form, changes the fact that Verizon is run better day-to-day, something even past ATT CEOs acknowledge. 'Huge growth' isn't that hard to come by with millions fleeing Sprint-Nextel... and even so, ATT has had a hard time on the postpaid side of the ledger. And actually, on many things, VZW and ATT charge the same.
Quote:
Both Mel and Solip have in one way or another stated the same as I've said. How is my position a press release for Apple or AT&T?
It would be quite a twisting of Mel and Solip's positions to call them the same as yours. And, unlike yourself, neither Mel nor Solip consistently deny reality. This is why their viewpoints are valuable.
Comments
Sigh. Don't know why I bother... talking to Teno is talkin' to a brick wall sometimes....Yup. But what was even more unrealistic was to expect that a product that the Euros didn't really want (2.5G, no MMS) at too high a price was going to sell in Europe at a US-pace.
Exactly what evidence shows the Euros did not want it? Even at its highest prices it was selling and adding subscribers. As the prices went down it sold even faster. That does not happen to a product that has no demand.
Sigh. Teno, if revenues were all that mattered, then Nokia and Microsoft would be much better companies than Apple is. But Apple is the better company, so maybe, just maaaaybe, it's highly over-simplistic to point at similar revenues and go, "Ook ook, revenues same, companies must be just as good as each other, ook ook!"
I said revenue and profit.
The whole point of any business is to make money. Revenue and profit are the direct measurement of how much money any company is making. Yes revenues and profits are most important.
I don't understand your comparison of Nokia, Microsoft, and Apple. All three of these companies are making a lot of money.
And even the rough revenue parity will be gone once the VZW-Alltel merger completes. So, does the Alltel acquisition make Verizon a much better company, then? Or just a larger one?
The deal still has some hurdles to clear. But if all goes well with no problems this may happen in the future, but is not the case right now.
Again, what you know about the wireless industry would appear to be not much. It's not just revenues, it's how the business is run and how the companies get there. Is any company with revenues similar to Apple just as good as Apple? Nope.
The wireless industry is not the only with metrics that measure how well a business is run. For any industry marketshare, ARPU, churn, customer service are all measurements of a companies operations and its ability to make money. But they are not really as important as the final revenue/profit number themselves.
Is Wallstreet going to punish AT&T for ARPU and churn alone. No, not as long as AT&T continues to make money.
If you're referring to Mel and Solip, they sound nothing like you, actually. I never get the feeling that I'm listening to some Apple/ATT press release when they post.
Accusations of fanboism actually lowers the quality of our dialog.
You said:
"The iPhone has poor sales in Europe because it did not meet carrier sales projections."
I said:
"While not a run away success, Euro iPhone sales have increased new subscriptions for its carriers and added hundreds of millions in new revenue for Apple. Everyone seems mostly satisfied. Because the iPhone is making them money."
You said:
"Verizon has better business operations than AT&T, that makes Verizon a better company."
I said:
"True Verizon has outperformed AT&T in some business operations, both companies have had a huge growth in subscriptions and profits, because Verizon charges more both are essentially tied in revenue/profits."
Both Mel and Solip have in one way or another stated the same as I've said. How is my position a press release for Apple or AT&T?
Exactly what evidence shows the Euros did not want it? Even at its highest prices it was selling and adding subscribers. As the prices went down it sold even faster. That does not happen to a product that has no demand.
The demand was obviously not as severe as the US market, but neither is the Mac market outside the US. I wonder how many early iPhone adopters were lost to European carriers because they obtained them from the US through other channels. We know the iPhone was used in almost every country just months after its launch and the sales were limited and required credit cards to prevent international gray market sales.
Even after the emergence into Europe, looking at the factory unlocked prices in France and Germany it appears to be financially beneficial to buy one from eBay. So I propose that the iPhone demand in Europe is much higher than the unit sales for 3 European caarriers across 5 countries indicate.
Perhaps TBaggins means that the demand was not as high as both Apple and the carriers thought they would be. That seems to be true. But with a 3G version almost upon us with v2.0 software and an assumed same day launch for all countries we should now be able to see how popular the iPhone really is.
I expect it to be phenomenal. Not just because it's 3G and it's a low cost luxry item and status symbol, but also because most complaints about its functionality will be thrown out the window. For example, MMS and video recording will be possible by 3rd-parties if Apple chooses not to add them. The video recording is more complex, but MMS should be available almost immediately, if it isn't already waiting in the wings.
Perhaps TBaggins means that the demand was not as high as both Apple and the carriers thought they would be. That seems to be true. But with a 3G version almost upon us with v2.0 software and an assumed same day launch for all countries we should now be able to see how popular the iPhone really is.
I do agree the combination of carrier lock-in, truncated feature set, and high price tag turned away a great deal of potential iPhone users in Europe.
All signs show Apple rectifying all of these issues. Should lead to explosive sales.
All signs show Apple rectifying all of these issues. Should lead to explosive sales.
Definitely, but I don't think it will be released tomorrow?I'm still thinking of a late June date; Friday, June 27th @ 5pm to be specific?so I sold all my Apple Stock in preparation of a significant drop tomorrow.
I do agree the combination of carrier lock-in, truncated feature set, and high price tag turned away a great deal of potential iPhone users in Europe.
As Meatloaf used to say it --- two out of three ain't bad.
Europeans are willing to take the device --- if the price is low (or free). These people get a free N-series phone with a contract --- and these Nokia BB5 phones were unlockable for 2+ years.
Exactly what evidence shows the Euros did not want it?
LOL... you're still in denial over this? Wow.
Let's see... missed sales goals, the comments of about a zillion Euro users, the existing feature sets of high-end phones already popular in Europe, etc. etc. You know, all the common sense things. Even AI routinely reports in their articles that Euro sales have been lackluster.
So, thank God the 3G iPhone finally came out today, so Apple can start to turn the situation around. Booyah!
Apple understands that they needed to up their game here to do well in Europe, apparently they were less in denial than some.
I said revenue and profit.
And provided absolutely NO profit numbers to back your claim up. Which is why you were ignored on that.
I don't understand your comparison of Nokia, Microsoft, and Apple. All three of these companies are making a lot of money.
Re-read it then. It's pretty clear to most any reasonable person, and simply goes along with your own "revenues uber alles" logic... which was kinda the point.
The deal still has some hurdles to clear. But if all goes well with no problems this may happen in the future, but is not the case right now.
It's pretty close to a done deal... it's unlikely the Feds will deny it, they'll simply require divestitures in certain markets. And it doesn't change my point, which you don't seem to want to respond to.
The wireless industry is not the only with metrics that measure how well a business is run. For any industry marketshare, ARPU, churn, customer service are all measurements of a companies operations and its ability to make money. But they are not really as important as the final revenue/profit number themselves.
I stand corrected then. You not only don't have a great grasp of the wireless industry, but all industries in general.
Is Wallstreet going to punish AT&T for ARPU and churn alone. No, not as long as AT&T continues to make money.
Sigh. First off, its hard to determine how much Wall Street is/is not 'punishing' ATT Mobility alone, since the stock traded is that of the overall company, of which ATT Mobility's revenues are only a part. Secondly, how would you know how Wall Street views the wireless sector, considering that you have to have the most basic wireless industry metrics explained to you?
Accusations of fanboism actually lowers the quality of our dialog.
The very consistent reality of your own unchecked fanboism has already lowered the quality of our dialog many times over. Sad to say, your main contribution in nearly all cases has been a summation of the party line.
Not saying it isn't valuable (sort of), but it would be nice to see you thinking outside of that particular box more often.
You said:
"The iPhone has poor sales in Europe because it did not meet carrier sales projections."
I said:
"While not a run away success, Euro iPhone sales have increased new subscriptions for its carriers and added hundreds of millions in new revenue for Apple. Everyone seems mostly satisfied. Because the iPhone is making them money."
Not exactly. More like, you said:
"I deny that iPhone sales are poor."
*was presented evidence to the contrary*
"Well, okay, but those aren't OFFICIAL numbers!"
*was presented with official numbers*
*Well, okay, but that's just November/Decembers! Things will turn AROUND!"
*things don't turn around*
"Well, okay, but sales in Europe are actually GREAT because there's tons of unlocked iPhones being sold in Europe!"
*no one seems to think that makes Europe sales good*
"Well, okay, but it doesn't matter that Europe sales aren't good because Apple's MAKING A PROFIT on the iPhone in Europe."
*Teno's asked for official iPhone profit numbers in Europe. Can't provide any, other than some odd personal math/guesstimate*
... and so on, and so on, and so on....
You said:
"Verizon has better business operations than AT&T, that makes Verizon a better company."
I said:
"True Verizon has outperformed AT&T in some business operations, both companies have had a huge growth in subscriptions and profits, because Verizon charges more both are essentially tied in revenue/profits."
Similarity in revenue in no way, shape, or form, changes the fact that Verizon is run better day-to-day, something even past ATT CEOs acknowledge. 'Huge growth' isn't that hard to come by with millions fleeing Sprint-Nextel... and even so, ATT has had a hard time on the postpaid side of the ledger. And actually, on many things, VZW and ATT charge the same.
Both Mel and Solip have in one way or another stated the same as I've said. How is my position a press release for Apple or AT&T?
It would be quite a twisting of Mel and Solip's positions to call them the same as yours. And, unlike yourself, neither Mel nor Solip consistently deny reality. This is why their viewpoints are valuable.
.
Can't you guys see the dead horse in the road? You're going to hit it at high speed, and it WILL hurt.
LOL, fair enough.
.