Orange says iPhone 3G to sell for 149 euros on July 17th

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  • Reply 21 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    The carriers may like the American system but for consumers it's a bad thing. Some of my phones cost me no more than £10 a year because they are only for incoming calls and all I need do is buy £5 credit every 6 months.



    How in the world would paying for incoming calls be better in any way, shape or form?



    So you are just off-loading the costs to your friends --- because you never phone them.



    Consumers shouldn't care whether they charge you this or charge you that --- as long as your overall out-of-pocket expense is lower.
  • Reply 22 of 49
    winterspanwinterspan Posts: 605member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    No, I think it is the rest of the world that is arrogant.



    Ha, that is a good one. I completely disagree, and I'm an American.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Back in the GSM era, EU was arrogant in their assumption that it is best to have a single technology in their licensing scheme. Now they are all talking about technology neutral licenses like the Americans.



    This was actually one of the best things that Europe got correct. The ability to use ANY phone on ANY network either nationwide or throughout all of Europe has been an excellent asset. In the United States, it has been an incredible pain in the ass having phones tied to carriers not only because of business interest, but also because of technology. Not only can I not transfer an expensive phone from Verizon to AT&T or vice versa because of technology, but because the CDMA carriers didn't even have to implement their version of the SIM card, you can't even move a CDMA phone among CDMA carriers. This makes the mobile market much less competitive than it would be if all the carriers were forced to standardize on GSM/UMTS. If that were the case, the flexibility provided by being able to move phones among carriers at will would lead to a batter market. Even WORSE was/is the fact that you were required to use CDMA phones solely sourced from the carrier, and you couldn't just freely purchase an otherwise compatible unlocked phone, or phone from another country.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It turned out that basically EVERYTHING that the Europeans were doing --- have been wrong.



    I'm not even going to comment on telecom anymore, but they sure seem to have a lot of other things going RIGHT compared to the dying empire....
  • Reply 23 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by winterspan View Post


    Ha, that is a good one. I completely disagree, and I'm an American.



    This was actually one of the best things that Europe got correct. The ability to use ANY phone on ANY network either nationwide or throughout all of Europe has been an excellent asset. In the United States, it has been an incredible pain in the ass having phones tied to carriers not only because of business interest, but also because of technology. Not only can I not transfer an expensive phone from Verizon to AT&T or vice versa because of technology, but because the CDMA carriers didn't even have to implement their version of the SIM card, you can't even move a CDMA phone among CDMA carriers. This makes the mobile market much less competitive than it would be if all the carriers were forced to standardize on GSM/UMTS. If that were the case, the flexibility provided by being able to move phones among carriers at will would lead to a batter market. Even WORSE was/is the fact that you were required to use CDMA phones solely sourced from the carrier, and you couldn't just freely purchase an otherwise compatible unlocked phone, or phone from another country.



    I'm not even going to comment on telecom anymore, but they sure seem to have a lot of other things going RIGHT compared to the dying empire....



    It also meant that they all fell into the same WCDMA nightmare for most of the decade.



    It also meant that cool new technologies such as wimax don't even have a chance to see the market --- because wcdma would have gotten all the 3G extension spectrum space (which is the same spectrum space that wimax runs on).



    There is a reason why even Europe is moving towards all technology neutral spectrum licensing from now on.



    The US cell phone service not competitive? Just look at the insane high prices of the first gen iphone plans in UK, France and Germany.
  • Reply 24 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    So you are just off-loading the costs to your friends --- because you never phone them.



    No, it's a business support line where my customers can ring me outside of office hours (generally), wherever I am. Usually I'm home though so I use SIP for outgoing, or email when their issue is solved.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Consumers shouldn't care whether they charge you this or charge you that --- as long as your overall out-of-pocket expense is lower.



    But it won't be lower as you'd be paying for incoming calls on a line that previously cost you nothing. It just doesn't add up.
  • Reply 25 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    No, it's a business support line where my customers can ring me outside of office hours (generally), wherever I am. Usually I'm home though so I use SIP for outgoing, or email when their issue is solved.



    But it won't be lower as you'd be paying for incoming calls on a line that previously cost you nothing. It just doesn't add up.



    One --- under the US system --- the carriers don't have to charge for incoming calls. Sprint Nextel in the US doesn't charge for incoming calls.



    For the general population --- not you with your support hotline --- if people get more than 2x amount of minutes for a lower price, then it shouldn't matter whether they have to pay for incoming calls or not.
  • Reply 26 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    The US cell phone service not competitive? Just look at the insane high prices of the first gen iphone plans in UK, France and Germany.



    Haha! That was just the iPhone plans though that were insane. If you weren't buying an iPhone you could get much more sane tariffs.
  • Reply 27 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    Haha! That was just the iPhone plans though that were insane. If you weren't buying an iPhone you could get much more sane tariffs.



    I disagree with you.



    Just look at the 3G iphone plan in the UK --- it's cheaper than the US iphone plan.



    But the major problem is that O2 charges the same 35 pound per month for the same 600 minutes for the same 500 SMS to the general population --- yet the general population doesn't get the unlimited data as the iphone plan.



    The general population gets the shaft in UK.



    http://www.o2.co.uk/mobilestariffs/t...monthlytariffs
  • Reply 28 of 49
    londorlondor Posts: 257member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    I disagree with you.



    Just look at the 3G iphone plan in the UK --- it's cheaper than the US iphone plan.



    But the major problem is that O2 charges the same 35 pound per month for the same 600 minutes for the same 500 SMS to the general population --- yet the general population doesn't get the unlimited data as the iphone plan.



    The general population gets the shaft in UK.



    http://www.o2.co.uk/mobilestariffs/t...monthlytariffs



    No, they do not. It seems that you can not read because that tariff of £35 includes a free phone which can be a Nokia N95 8GB, a XDA Orbit 2, etc. (Full list of free phones on the £35 tariff). If you want the same 600 minutes & 500 SMS plan without a phone it costs £25. How is that shafting the general population?



    The reality is that the US model of charging for incoming calls is dumb and it is the reason why the US is at least 3 years behind the rest of the world in mobile technology and mobile phones.
  • Reply 29 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    One --- under the US system --- the carriers don't have to charge for incoming calls. Sprint Nextel in the US doesn't charge for incoming calls.



    ok, and I'm taking your assertion as true without looking up the details, but that's irrelevant to your point, that it was in the consumers interest to adopt the US system. It isn't. The carriers even said that it may lead to extra charges for incoming calls in the piece quoted earlier.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    For the general population --- not you with your support hotline --- if people get more than 2x amount of minutes for a lower price, then it shouldn't matter whether they have to pay for incoming calls or not.



    Most people NEVER use the allowance they have got already. Why would they want twice the amount AND a bill for incoming calls?



    My kids both have phones so we can track them down. They'd be horrified if they had to pay for incoming calls out of their allowance.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    I disagree with you.



    [snip]



    Londor already pointed out where you went wrong with the existing tariff but prior to that the original iPhone tariff here gave you what other people were getting for £20 inc a free phone but no data. Data at the time was a £7.50 bolt on.



    However, if you went to 3, T-mobile, Orange or Vodafone even the tariffs were cheaper than O2.



    I'm leaving aside the argument that contracts with built in minutes here are increasingly unpopular anyway. More than half the population use PAYG SIMs. We've 7 mobile phones here in our house on PAYG SIMs between four people. It works out cheaper as you can get 'family pack' style deals on SIM only PAYG so we have free calls and free texts between each of us.
  • Reply 30 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    ok, and I'm taking your assertion as true without looking up the details, but that's irrelevant to your point, that it was in the consumers interest to adopt the US system. It isn't. The carriers even said that it may lead to extra charges for incoming calls in the piece quoted earlier.



    Most people NEVER use the allowance they have got already. Why would they want twice the amount AND a bill for incoming calls?



    My kids both have phones so we can track them down. They'd be horrified if they had to pay for incoming calls out of their allowance.



    [snip]



    Londor already pointed out where you went wrong with the existing tariff but prior to that the original iPhone tariff here gave you what other people were getting for £20 inc a free phone but no data. Data at the time was a £7.50 bolt on.



    However, if you went to 3, T-mobile, Orange or Vodafone even the tariffs were cheaper than O2.



    I'm leaving aside the argument that contracts with built in minutes here are increasingly unpopular anyway. More than half the population use PAYG SIMs. We've 7 mobile phones here in our house on PAYG SIMs between four people. It works out cheaper as you can get 'family pack' style deals on SIM only PAYG so we have free calls and free texts between each of us.



    For-profit arriers telling the public that the new price control is going to hurt consumers --- and you believe them?



    People is going to change the phone habits --- there is a reason why europeans talk about 200 minutes on a mobile phone and americans talk 800 minutes on a phone. You may say it's going to be worse off --- because people are going to be constantly talk on their phones on buses, in theatres, in restaurants...



    Look at family plans in the US --- it's even available with the iphone plans.
  • Reply 31 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    For-profit arriers telling the public that the new price control is going to hurt consumers --- and you believe them?



    Yes because it's BLEEDING OBVIOUS that extra charges are going to hurt consumers who use their phones for mainly incoming use, which I'd suggest is the majority of people.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    People is going to change the phone habits --- there is a reason why europeans talk about 200 minutes on a mobile phone and americans talk 800 minutes on a phone. You may say it's going to be worse off --- because people are going to be constantly talk on their phones on buses, in theatres, in restaurants...



    And we use SMS a lot more. It's now so ingrained a cultural difference that I don't see it changing and as text messaging prices are due to tumble, that won't change.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    Look at family plans in the US --- it's even available with the iphone plans.



    Not available here on O2 from what I can tell although they now have opened up business tariffs so maybe there's the potential to haggle at the counter.
  • Reply 32 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    Yes because it's BLEEDING OBVIOUS that extra charges are going to hurt consumers who use their phones for mainly incoming use, which I'd suggest is the majority of people.



    And we use SMS a lot more. It's now so ingrained a cultural difference that I don't see it changing and as text messaging prices are due to tumble, that won't change.



    Not available here on O2 from what I can tell although they now have opened up business tariffs so maybe there's the potential to haggle at the counter.



    For a country with over 100% mobile penetration rate --- and nobody willing to start a phone call --- then there is something wrong with the picture.



    Tens of thousands of years of human evolution gave us vocal communication skills --- it's ingrained into our DNA. Talking is more natural.
  • Reply 33 of 49
    londorlondor Posts: 257member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    Not available here on O2 from what I can tell although they now have opened up business tariffs so maybe there's the potential to haggle at the counter.



    You do not have a family plan per se but you can have with a £15 contract a free phone & unlimited O2 to O2 calls, for £25 a free phone, 200 minutes & 400 text messages and unlimited O2 to O2 calls or more expensive plans with a better selection of free phones, more anytime any network allowances plus the same unlimited O2 to O2 calls. If you have Pay-As-You-Go you can have for £5 a month 1000 minutes or texts (you mix them as you want) to 10 selected O2 numbers.
  • Reply 34 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Londor View Post


    You do not have a family plan per se but you can have with a £15 contract a free phone & unlimited O2 to O2 calls, for £25 a free phone, 200 minutes & 400 text messages and unlimited O2 to O2 calls or more expensive plans with a better selection of free phones, more anytime any network allowances plus the same unlimited O2 to O2 calls. If you have Pay-As-You-Go you can have for £5 a month 1000 minutes or texts (you mix them as you want) to 10 selected O2 numbers.



    I'll have to have another look although last time I looked at this about a year ago, T-mobile were cheapest by far if you haggled with the store manager. Apple with the iPhone ruled out any deals or haggling, much to the dismay of O2/Carphone Warehouse store staff I spoke to who were losing sales because of the rigid tariff structure.
  • Reply 35 of 49
    winterspanwinterspan Posts: 605member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It also meant that they all fell into the same WCDMA nightmare for most of the decade.



    It also meant that cool new technologies such as wimax don't even have a chance to see the market --- because wcdma would have gotten all the 3G extension spectrum space (which is the same spectrum space that wimax runs on). There is a reason why even Europe is moving towards all technology neutral spectrum licensing from now on.

    The US cell phone service not competitive? Just look at the insane high prices of the first gen iphone plans in UK, France and Germany.



    First of all, according to the reports I read and first-person, real-world experience, WiMax doesn't perform anywhere near it's been touted to. Now of course, there are hundreds of variables here, but I'm just speaking in a general manner. Also, besides the Sprint/Clearwire initiative which I certainly believe is going to crash and burn, every other carrier in the USA is standardizing on LTE. And having a country standardize on a particular cell phone technology (for one generation of tech at least) doesn't mean they can't explicitly reserve spectrum for other uses.



    As far as competitiveness, it's incredibly shortsighted to just look at the iPhone plans. acknowledging it is hard to really compare value in two different countries, considering currency conversions, costs of goods and services, total market, etc, overall it appears those in the UK/Europe get some good deals. With almost any major carrier, they will subsidize the ENTIRE COST of an expensive $600-800 smartphone, whereas with Verizon/AT*T you are lucky to ever get anything over $200 in subsidy. On face value, minutes seem cheaper in the USA until you factor in that Europeans don't pay for incoming calls. The one advantage the US has is that data plans are usually sold as "unlimited" instead of tiered megabyte allowances, although the same applies in wired telecommunications, so maybe it's a cultural thing or something. American's love the all-you-can-eat concept . When you factor in the huge subsidy on devices, I would bet that an average subscriber with an average allowance of minutes/data that want's a a high-end can get a better deal overseas than in N America, although it would be the reverse for heavy data users.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    No, it's a business support line where my customers can ring me outside of office hours (generally), wherever I am. Usually I'm home though so I use SIP for outgoing, or email when their issue is solved.



    Also having run a business, isn't it great what VOIP can do!!!
  • Reply 36 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    WCDMA was a complete Titanic of a disaster compared to WiMax.



    I think it's the other way around --- it is a mistake to dismiss the iphone as a "special" case.



    If a country has a competitive telecom industry --- then the rates are going to be low. You have 2 countries like France and Canada --- each with only 3 national carriers and both have laws against foreign ownership of their telecom industry --- of course you are going to see insane iphone plans. Deutsche Telekom is still 1/3 owned by the German government.



    In the US, the telecom market is so competitive that AT&T Wireless didn't even charge the normal PDA data plan for the first gen iphone --- so they charged a $20 for data which is their normal rate for a WAP plan. Only now with the 3G iphone that AT&T raises the price to the normal PDA rate.



    The iphone isn't a special case at all --- the worldwide iphone prices reflect each country's telecom industry's competitiveness.
  • Reply 37 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    The iphone isn't a special case at all --- the worldwide iphone prices reflect each country's telecom industry's competitiveness.





    It is in some regards since it is, as far as I'm aware, the first phone to ever have mandatory data plans included in the monthly tariff. AT&T later allowed you to drop the data plan and O2 are apparently going to make it optional with their PAYG option.



    Here in the UK with O2 the cost of the handset was also insane - ie. not FREE with the tariffs at launch. Again, they're correcting that with iPhone 3G so that it more closely follows what we'd expect a phone to cost.



    So, iPhone 3G might reflect each country's telecom environment but that wasn't true with the old one.
  • Reply 38 of 49
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    The blackberries and the sidekicks have mandatory data elements for a long time.
  • Reply 39 of 49
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    The blackberries and the sidekicks have mandatory data elements for a long time.



    I'd forgotten about the sidekick. It didn't make it over to Europe.



    Blackberries are available here without data and AFAIK always have been. They aren't very popular though. Every Blackberry owner I know here has another phone, usually an SE or Nokia.



    edit: Sorry, apparently wrong about the Sidekick. I've never seen one here in the UK.
  • Reply 40 of 49
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    WCDMA was a complete Titanic of a disaster compared to WiMax.



    I think it's the other way around --- it is a mistake to dismiss the iphone as a "special" case.



    If a country has a competitive telecom industry --- then the rates are going to be low. You have 2 countries like France and Canada --- each with only 3 national carriers and both have laws against foreign ownership of their telecom industry --- of course you are going to see insane iphone plans. Deutsche Telekom is still 1/3 owned by the German government.



    In the US, the telecom market is so competitive that AT&T Wireless didn't even charge the normal PDA data plan for the first gen iphone --- so they charged a $20 for data which is their normal rate for a WAP plan. Only now with the 3G iphone that AT&T raises the price to the normal PDA rate.



    The iphone isn't a special case at all --- the worldwide iphone prices reflect each country's telecom industry's competitiveness.



    When was this WCDMA "disaster"? I'm not sure of the history, but if it was such a disaster, why is nearly every telecom carrier in the world standardizing on it, including many traditional CDMA/CDMA2000 carriers? And I think you underestimate the failure of WiMax to go anywhere and how much industry money will be wasted on it.



    Regarding the carriers, there are many reasons why comparing the iPhone deal among different countries is problematic.



    1) The iPhone was not allowed to be subsidized. As I said in the original post, a large benefit of wireless service in Europe is receiving a totally subsidized expensive media/smart phone which can cost upwards of 600 euro in many of the countries. In Britain, handset prices can be even higher when converted from their currency. This benefit was unable to be realized as all the original iPhones were sold at high unsubsidized prices, so this pricing benefit was essentially nullified. Not so on the new iPhone 3G.



    2) An even more problematic issue is Apple's revenue sharing deals. First of all, we don't even know the deal they were getting from any of the carriers, nor do we know if the revenue sharing widely varied from carrier to carrier. Obviously, if their revenue share was higher for a certain company, they are going to offer less competitive rates in order to gain back some of the lost revenue.



    3) The original iPhone was a GSM/EDGE/2G only device. Because of this, AT&T lowered the price of their normal data plan, and I'm not sure what affect this had on the European carriers.



    Overall, I think it is still problematic as the iPhone is a special case, although with the advent of a 3G-compatible device that is able to be subsidized, I think it's much more fair to compare them now. We'll see very soon as all the plans start coming out...
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