It's a Music Phone. Not a Photo Phone. Want to know why that's a distinction? Look at Sony Eriksson, they have Music Phones (Walkman Phones) and Photo Phones (The K-Series). They have feature overlaps sure, but Ws are better for music Ks are better for Photos. Yes, the iPhone is pretty advanced, but first and foremost it's a Music Phone. The camera is just an obligatory feature.
ok, but nearly all of Sony's W phones have 3.2mp cameras or better, flash and video.
The K series has been replaced by the C series, including the 8.1mp beauty I mentioned earlier but they were cracking cameraphones. Most of them had the same music software as the W series.
They also have the M and the P series of smartphones and now the X series. Apart from the M series, they usually have 3.2mp cameras or better with flash and video too.
ok, but nearly all of Sony's W phones have 3.2mp cameras or better, flash and video.
The K series has been replaced by the C series, including the 8.1mp beauty I mentioned earlier but they were cracking cameraphones. Most of them had the same music software as the W series.
They also have the M and the P series of smartphones and now the X series. Apart from the M series, they usually have 3.2mp cameras or better with flash and video too.
Apple is just behind and there's no excuse.
SE used to be top dog for camera phones. The S700 and then W800/K750/K800 came first ahead of Nokia but since then they have started using crap camera modules. The w890 for example is a 3.2mp camera yet its still not as good as the 2mp camera they had in the w800. The c905 should be interesting as and when it comes. Its also come to the surface that a new LG touch screen (probably sucessor to the Viewty) will be out in October and is rumored to also have 8mp with a xenon flash and get this - it will record video in 720×480 @ 30 fps. The KC550 which is already out already records in this video resolution although I think that could be 15fps. Moto will also jump on the 8mp bandwagon this year.
The point im making is that Apple have no excuse but at the end of the day its only going to limit their sales and poipularity so i dont give a crap.
They funny thing is that whilst its camera is not by any means adequetefor todays market its still popular in terms of usage. I remember seeing a graph some time ago showing how many people blog to flickr from various new phones and iphone came out on top ahead of even the N95 and K850. Firslty I don?t know from where the information was used whether it was from one country or not but at least it shows people enjoy the camera app. Its veery easy to use and saves the pic quick meaning you can take quite a few pics quickly. If only it were just 3.2 mp.
Come on people this is a very simple thing to work out...
12 months from now Apple will release the Iphone 3.
This Iphone will focus on video / camera / ichat, etc.
I'd bet my house this Iphone will have one of the best intergrations of this out there by then. I'm talking great video recording, amazing camera, spot on video confrencing via a front camera, etc, etc.
Now... If Apple put all these feature into the iphone 3G what could then then put into the next model?
It's called Drip Feeding. Give them just enough in order to make them upgrade but leave enough back so you can release another model later on.
There is NO reason why the current iphone couldn't have a far better camera than is has now. Size has nothing to do with it. Apple have just picked two or 3 features that will make people upgrade and will now focus on another 2-3 features for the next one.
They funny thing is that whilst its camera is not by any means adequetefor todays market its still popular in terms of usage. I remember seeing a graph some time ago showing how many people blog to flickr from various new phones and iphone came out on top ahead of even the N95 and K850. Firslty I don?t know from where the information was used whether it was from one country or not but at least it shows people enjoy the camera app. Its veery easy to use and saves the pic quick meaning you can take quite a few pics quickly. If only it were just 3.2 mp.
Flickr is more popular in the USA, like the iPhone is too, especially amongst alpha-geeks. It's as simple as that.
Oh alright I exaggerated. But I bet the majority of people under 25 or even 30 use their camera in their phone, and they are the future.
SimonPickard you're probably right. Apple is shrewd. I always nitpicked on the features the iPod lacked when it first came out. They slowly add them in. That way, us Apple Fanbois buy the first one, then the second one, then the third one...brilliant. I know I certainly can't wait out for a nice camera! I'm getting one next year when I have the $$$!
Overall I understand why iPod/iPhone succeeded: simplicity. Easy to use.
"Apple is shrewd. I always nitpicked on the features the iPod lacked when it first came out. They slowly add them in. That way, us Apple Fanbois buy the first one, then the second one, then the third one...brilliant.
Exactly. This time next year we'll have a 32GB Iphone (maybe 64GB who knows) with amazing video, camera, ichat, etc. But by then we'll be moaning about something else..... Not getting at anyone but that's the way it is. Apple are Masters at this game. Knowing exactly what they can add to a prodcut in order to sell it, but also keeping features back to sell again and again...
Bottom line I see it as this..... The Iphone is amazing. Look back 4 years and at what we have now. We should all be happy where we are. The power we have in our pockets is quite frankly scary.
Enjoy the Iphone 3G. Then next year ebay the hell out of it and buy the Iphone 4 with better features.
yup, "Drip Feeding." that's the answer. you can find repeated examples of Apple doing that with just about every product they have. a clever marketing strategy when you have a captive group of customers who are unlikely to switch to a competitor's product just to get a missing feature.
in a way it is just as well. saves me money. if the 2008 iPhone just had a better camera i'd probably buy one now to replace my 2007 iPhone, even though it is less than a year old. but instead i'll wait that extra year until 2009.
(likewise, i'm waiting patiently for an updated Mac Mini with "n" wireless, to take advantage of my "n" Airport Extreme, before replacing my 2006 model even though i need a faster one now.)
EVERYONE uses the camera in their phone. Apple should add flash and make the optics a bit better. End of discussion, as some have pointed out.
Perhaps even more importantly, they should add video. How can it have a camera but not do video? Can't they just update the software so it does video?
The iPhone should be the best at everything. It can be. And I bet it will be, by the time I get around to getting one in a year. I mostly hope it does video.
While specs aren't everything it is hard to become the market leader when you ignore certain segments almost exclusively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icfireball
Really? That's a very dangerous statement to make. I know tons of people that never use the camera built into their cell phone.
How many of those people got the baseline camera for their plan or use or purchased for other advanced or "smart" features while ignoring the camera?
I purchased my last cellphone, the LG Dare for considerations that Apple has not addressed. I can't go on the AT&T network. The phone was a major consideration especially in this litigious age. The best defense is a good offense and having 8 gigs of 3.2 MP and 640x480 video goodness always with me helps quite a bit. I can take a quick picture if I post a notice to a tenant and email it to myself from my phone. If I see some kids tagging after-school and their parents want to make it my word against their child, my phone wins.
Apple needs to improve in this area. My photos don't have to be magazine ready. They just have to cover my butt. The handyman/contractor I use does the exact same thing. If he gets into a job and discovers something unexpected, out comes the phone with camera.
Want a decent camera in your phone? Don't get an iPhone. I hardly use the camera on my current phone. Like many posts above, I use it for spur of the moment snapshots.
Want a decent camera in your phone? Don't get an iPhone. I hardly use the camera on my current phone. Like many posts above, I use it for spur of the moment snapshots.
This is why it's crappy, people don't care if Jobs doesn't.
was amazed that the 2008 iPhone will not have an improved camera.
Nothing to be amazed about as there is really nothign on the market that could do significantly better.
Quote:
the iPhone camera can't take a decent photo unless (1) you have really good light, (2) you are in the focal range which is soft and deep, and (3) you don't jiggle at all and blur it. so about half the time, forget using it. i know, i've tried.
I could very easily say that about most camera phone systems. To get away from a fixed focus system you either need a mechanical focusing system, some sort of Fluidic lens, or other advanced optical technique. It is not like there isn't a lot of engineering and research going into camera phone sized sensors, just that iPhone 3G is just a few steps ahead of improved sensors and optics.
Quote:
you'd think a company that prides itself on hardware would fix this out of pure shame. there are plenty of good phone cameras available they could use instead. they could charge extra for a 'pro' model. does Jobs just hate picture taking, or what?
I think the thing here is that people who enjoy picture taking realize that there isn't a cell phone camera made right now that produces the type of quality even a marginal point and shoot camera can offer up. All the whining I see in the various threads about how much better the iPhone camera would be if it went with a size larger {3.2 MP} sensor is just bunk. That Mega Pixel number says nothing about what the total package can do.
In the past I've erged people to get a couple of copies of Photonics/Spectra form last year that covered what was happening research wise with respect to cell phone camera sensors. There s a lot going on and if fruitful will give us marginally improved cameras for iPhone form factor devices. Even with all the research dollars being thrown at the problems with respect the small optics there are still physical limits that cant' be exceeded. More recently if you can get your hands on the 6-26-08 issue of Electronic Design you will find an interesting article on new tech from OmniVision Technologies. {www.ovt.com}
Omni is claiming to be able to mass produce BSI sensors, sometimes known as Back Side Illuminated. The end result would be a sensitive sensor with smaller pixel sizes. This offers up the potential of higher pixel counts within the limitations imposed by the constraints on the optical assembly.
Constraints imposed on the optical assembly are key to understanding what is going on in a cell phone camera and why they can't scale quickly. In a nut shell small optics can not project a large image circle. Further the short focal length optics mean the light strikes the sensors at less than optimal angles. The Electronics Design article glosses over some of these issues. Interestingly this technology is rather simple compared to some approaches that want to use gratings and other optical techniques to channel the light to the detectors.
In any event I think we will see a better camera (s) in cell phones in relatively short time. Apple on the other hand doesn't have much to worry about as it will have its hands full the next few months just keeping up with current iPhone 2 demand. Like it or not several million people will soon vote on the importance of the current camera in the iPhone. Apple has nothing to worry about here.
AS to the new technology we could be seeing, possibly by the end of the year, the big question is will Apple be able to lock up some of this tech for its use only.
Comments
EVERYONE uses the camera in their phone.
Really? That's a very dangerous statement to make. I know tons of people that never use the camera built into their cell phone.
Okay, you really want to know:
It's a Music Phone. Not a Photo Phone. Want to know why that's a distinction? Look at Sony Eriksson, they have Music Phones (Walkman Phones) and Photo Phones (The K-Series). They have feature overlaps sure, but Ws are better for music Ks are better for Photos. Yes, the iPhone is pretty advanced, but first and foremost it's a Music Phone. The camera is just an obligatory feature.
ok, but nearly all of Sony's W phones have 3.2mp cameras or better, flash and video.
The K series has been replaced by the C series, including the 8.1mp beauty I mentioned earlier but they were cracking cameraphones. Most of them had the same music software as the W series.
They also have the M and the P series of smartphones and now the X series. Apart from the M series, they usually have 3.2mp cameras or better with flash and video too.
Apple is just behind and there's no excuse.
EVERYONE uses the camera in their phone.
My current mobile is an N95 8GB and I have never used the camera on it.
ok, but nearly all of Sony's W phones have 3.2mp cameras or better, flash and video.
The K series has been replaced by the C series, including the 8.1mp beauty I mentioned earlier but they were cracking cameraphones. Most of them had the same music software as the W series.
They also have the M and the P series of smartphones and now the X series. Apart from the M series, they usually have 3.2mp cameras or better with flash and video too.
Apple is just behind and there's no excuse.
SE used to be top dog for camera phones. The S700 and then W800/K750/K800 came first ahead of Nokia but since then they have started using crap camera modules. The w890 for example is a 3.2mp camera yet its still not as good as the 2mp camera they had in the w800. The c905 should be interesting as and when it comes. Its also come to the surface that a new LG touch screen (probably sucessor to the Viewty) will be out in October and is rumored to also have 8mp with a xenon flash and get this - it will record video in 720×480 @ 30 fps. The KC550 which is already out already records in this video resolution although I think that could be 15fps. Moto will also jump on the 8mp bandwagon this year.
The point im making is that Apple have no excuse but at the end of the day its only going to limit their sales and poipularity so i dont give a crap.
The iPhone needs a 3.2MP camera with a flash, end of.
Apparently not.
Assuming you meant enf of conversation, rather than end of your contribution...
12 months from now Apple will release the Iphone 3.
This Iphone will focus on video / camera / ichat, etc.
I'd bet my house this Iphone will have one of the best intergrations of this out there by then. I'm talking great video recording, amazing camera, spot on video confrencing via a front camera, etc, etc.
Now... If Apple put all these feature into the iphone 3G what could then then put into the next model?
It's called Drip Feeding. Give them just enough in order to make them upgrade but leave enough back so you can release another model later on.
There is NO reason why the current iphone couldn't have a far better camera than is has now. Size has nothing to do with it. Apple have just picked two or 3 features that will make people upgrade and will now focus on another 2-3 features for the next one.
Regards,
Simon
They funny thing is that whilst its camera is not by any means adequetefor todays market its still popular in terms of usage. I remember seeing a graph some time ago showing how many people blog to flickr from various new phones and iphone came out on top ahead of even the N95 and K850. Firslty I don?t know from where the information was used whether it was from one country or not but at least it shows people enjoy the camera app. Its veery easy to use and saves the pic quick meaning you can take quite a few pics quickly. If only it were just 3.2 mp.
Flickr is more popular in the USA, like the iPhone is too, especially amongst alpha-geeks. It's as simple as that.
SimonPickard you're probably right. Apple is shrewd. I always nitpicked on the features the iPod lacked when it first came out. They slowly add them in. That way, us Apple Fanbois buy the first one, then the second one, then the third one...brilliant. I know I certainly can't wait out for a nice camera! I'm getting one next year when I have the $$$!
Overall I understand why iPod/iPhone succeeded: simplicity. Easy to use.
Exactly. This time next year we'll have a 32GB Iphone (maybe 64GB who knows) with amazing video, camera, ichat, etc. But by then we'll be moaning about something else..... Not getting at anyone but that's the way it is. Apple are Masters at this game. Knowing exactly what they can add to a prodcut in order to sell it, but also keeping features back to sell again and again...
Bottom line I see it as this..... The Iphone is amazing. Look back 4 years and at what we have now. We should all be happy where we are. The power we have in our pockets is quite frankly scary.
Enjoy the Iphone 3G. Then next year ebay the hell out of it and buy the Iphone 4 with better features.
in a way it is just as well. saves me money. if the 2008 iPhone just had a better camera i'd probably buy one now to replace my 2007 iPhone, even though it is less than a year old. but instead i'll wait that extra year until 2009.
(likewise, i'm waiting patiently for an updated Mac Mini with "n" wireless, to take advantage of my "n" Airport Extreme, before replacing my 2006 model even though i need a faster one now.)
But ah, the longing ...
EVERYONE uses the camera in their phone. Apple should add flash and make the optics a bit better. End of discussion, as some have pointed out.
Perhaps even more importantly, they should add video. How can it have a camera but not do video? Can't they just update the software so it does video?
The iPhone should be the best at everything. It can be. And I bet it will be, by the time I get around to getting one in a year. I mostly hope it does video.
While specs aren't everything it is hard to become the market leader when you ignore certain segments almost exclusively.
Really? That's a very dangerous statement to make. I know tons of people that never use the camera built into their cell phone.
How many of those people got the baseline camera for their plan or use or purchased for other advanced or "smart" features while ignoring the camera?
I purchased my last cellphone, the LG Dare for considerations that Apple has not addressed. I can't go on the AT&T network. The phone was a major consideration especially in this litigious age. The best defense is a good offense and having 8 gigs of 3.2 MP and 640x480 video goodness always with me helps quite a bit. I can take a quick picture if I post a notice to a tenant and email it to myself from my phone. If I see some kids tagging after-school and their parents want to make it my word against their child, my phone wins.
Apple needs to improve in this area. My photos don't have to be magazine ready. They just have to cover my butt. The handyman/contractor I use does the exact same thing. If he gets into a job and discovers something unexpected, out comes the phone with camera.
Want a decent camera in your phone? Don't get an iPhone. I hardly use the camera on my current phone. Like many posts above, I use it for spur of the moment snapshots.
simple solution.
Want a decent camera in your phone? Don't get an iPhone. I hardly use the camera on my current phone. Like many posts above, I use it for spur of the moment snapshots.
This is why it's crappy, people don't care if Jobs doesn't.
was amazed that the 2008 iPhone will not have an improved camera.
Nothing to be amazed about as there is really nothign on the market that could do significantly better.
the iPhone camera can't take a decent photo unless (1) you have really good light, (2) you are in the focal range which is soft and deep, and (3) you don't jiggle at all and blur it. so about half the time, forget using it. i know, i've tried.
I could very easily say that about most camera phone systems. To get away from a fixed focus system you either need a mechanical focusing system, some sort of Fluidic lens, or other advanced optical technique. It is not like there isn't a lot of engineering and research going into camera phone sized sensors, just that iPhone 3G is just a few steps ahead of improved sensors and optics.
you'd think a company that prides itself on hardware would fix this out of pure shame. there are plenty of good phone cameras available they could use instead. they could charge extra for a 'pro' model. does Jobs just hate picture taking, or what?
I think the thing here is that people who enjoy picture taking realize that there isn't a cell phone camera made right now that produces the type of quality even a marginal point and shoot camera can offer up. All the whining I see in the various threads about how much better the iPhone camera would be if it went with a size larger {3.2 MP} sensor is just bunk. That Mega Pixel number says nothing about what the total package can do.
In the past I've erged people to get a couple of copies of Photonics/Spectra form last year that covered what was happening research wise with respect to cell phone camera sensors. There s a lot going on and if fruitful will give us marginally improved cameras for iPhone form factor devices. Even with all the research dollars being thrown at the problems with respect the small optics there are still physical limits that cant' be exceeded. More recently if you can get your hands on the 6-26-08 issue of Electronic Design you will find an interesting article on new tech from OmniVision Technologies. {www.ovt.com}
Omni is claiming to be able to mass produce BSI sensors, sometimes known as Back Side Illuminated. The end result would be a sensitive sensor with smaller pixel sizes. This offers up the potential of higher pixel counts within the limitations imposed by the constraints on the optical assembly.
Constraints imposed on the optical assembly are key to understanding what is going on in a cell phone camera and why they can't scale quickly. In a nut shell small optics can not project a large image circle. Further the short focal length optics mean the light strikes the sensors at less than optimal angles. The Electronics Design article glosses over some of these issues. Interestingly this technology is rather simple compared to some approaches that want to use gratings and other optical techniques to channel the light to the detectors.
In any event I think we will see a better camera (s) in cell phones in relatively short time. Apple on the other hand doesn't have much to worry about as it will have its hands full the next few months just keeping up with current iPhone 2 demand. Like it or not several million people will soon vote on the importance of the current camera in the iPhone. Apple has nothing to worry about here.
AS to the new technology we could be seeing, possibly by the end of the year, the big question is will Apple be able to lock up some of this tech for its use only.
Dave