Are You a "Lineupper" or a "Sidezoomer?"

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 28
    franksargentfranksargent Posts: 4,694member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Sidezoomer to a reasonable opening in traffic. There's no reason not to use as much road as is available before merging since at most traffic densities this comes up in the speed at the merge point is low anyway. I also always let one car in at the merge point if I happened to have lined up earlier.



    Blocking folks from using the available road seems childish. Regardless of queing theory, traffic engineers disagree to the point where they post signs that say "Use all available lanes until merge" in some states.



    Efficient queing is all very well but when traffic density increases too much you can't zipper merge at speed anyway. Roads are clogged and you get slowdowns even without bottlenecks, construction or accidents.



    I only use the shoulder if I'm within very close visual range of my exit. Mostly because it's a tad too tantilizing not to do so if there's no danger to anyone else and I'll be one less car clogging up the road.



    Eh, super aggressive vigilantes are as big a problem as super agressive sidezoomers.



    I suggested a strategy employed by truckers, it does establish higher throughput, as there are no longer as many lane changes as the number of vehicles is fixed and ever diminishing in front of the zoomer speed bump. Heck are you old enough to remember the 55 MPH speed limit? Cop cars use to drive abreast to enforce the speed limit.



    No one is getting in the way of an orderly and more efficient choke point, in fact just the opposite. I don't obstruct traffic, I go at the speed of the slowest moving lane, whichever lane I happen to be in, and I stay in that lane, it's 12 feet wide, I have a right to use it just as anyone else does, as long as I'm not moving laterally to purposefully stop an oncoming vehicle, which I have never have done.



    I'd even consider it altruistic, since I've given up my ability to jump to the front of the line.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 22 of 28
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


    I suggested a strategy employed by truckers, it does establish higher throughput, as there are no longer as many lane changes as the number of vehicles is fixed and ever diminishing in front of the zoomer speed bump. Heck are you old enough to remember the 55 MPH speed limit? Cop cars use to drive abreast to enforce the speed limit.



    Yes. So?



    Given that truckers are not traffic engineers and there ARE signs that DO say use all lanes until the merge point I think that you'd have to address that first before you can assert that blocking the empty lane establishes a higher throughput in all traffic situations.



    Blocking access to exits is one negative effect of vigilantes like yourself. It's one thing when traffic is slow and you can't get off the road. It's another when it's because some pompous asshat is blocking the way.



    Quote:

    No one is getting in the way of an orderly and more efficient choke point, in fact just the opposite. I don't obstruct traffic, I go at the speed of the slowest moving lane, whichever lane I happen to be in, and I stay in that lane, it's 12 feet wide, I have a right to use it just as anyone else does, as long as I'm not moving laterally to purposefully stop an oncoming vehicle, which I have never have done.



    I'd even consider it altruistic, since I've given up my ability to jump to the front of the line.



    Yes, it's not illegal to block a lane any more than it is illegal to side zoom. But it is no more polite or moral to do so and hardly altruistic. It's simply imposing your worldview on others. Saying that's altruisitic simply indicates you're an arrogant jerk.



    Do you drive at the speed limit in the fast lane as well? Push every button on an elevator because it would be healthier to take the stairs?



    Please. Do what you want but don't claim altruism for self serving behavior.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 23 of 28
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BRussell View Post


    So you can try to screw up traffic even when conditions are slippery?



    Actually, you screw up traffic by getting in the way. Not only is this common sense, but the research Shawn cites seems to agree. Water flowing through a pipe doesn't line up. It's optimal for drivers to distribute their cars in as much road as possible. You prevent that. You are a control freak. Let go.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 24 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Yes. So?



    Given that truckers are not traffic engineers and there ARE signs that DO say use all lanes until the merge point I think that you'd have to address that first before you can assert that blocking the empty lane establishes a higher throughput in all traffic situations.



    Blocking access to exits is one negative effect of vigilantes like yourself. It's one thing when traffic is slow and you can't get off the road. It's another when it's because some pompous asshat is blocking the way.







    Yes, it's not illegal to block a lane any more than it is illegal to side zoom. But it is no more polite or moral to do so and hardly altruistic. It's simply imposing your worldview on others. Saying that's altruisitic simply indicates you're an arrogant jerk.



    Do you drive at the speed limit in the fast lane as well? Push every button on an elevator because it would be healthier to take the stairs?



    Please. Do what you want but don't claim altruism for self serving behavior.



    It's called the Golden Rule. I'll keep on doing as I please because I know more than you do in this matter. Sorry for the reality check. Now bug off.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 25 of 28
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    Actually, you screw up traffic by getting in the way. Not only is this common sense, but the research Shawn cites seems to agree. Water flowing through a pipe doesn't line up. It's optimal for drivers to distribute their cars in as much road as possible. You prevent that. You are a control freak. Let go.



    Human nature being what it is a single queue is the most efficient strategy in terms of throughput.



    Oh and I'm a Research Hydraulic Engineer, water is not an animate creature. Water does not brake in and of itself. Water losses energy in a confined abrupt constriction, water flowing in a single sized pipe or open channel flow has the minimal head loss. Thus a single lane of evenly and unchanging traffic is the de facto most efficient means of moving water, err traffic. So there. It's called the Bernoulli Energy Equation. Therefore, in mathematical terms this can be easily proven, since the least energy lost (or in this case net flow loss) results in the greatest amount of flow.

    . No getting around the basic laws of physics, that's for sure.



    But perhaps you would like to discuss RANS modeling? Or the shallow to intermediate depth Boussinesq Equation. 1D, 2D, or 3D, take your pick, I'm game.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 26 of 28
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


    Human nature being what it is a single queue is the most efficient strategy in terms of throughput. . . .



    Oh and I'm a Research Hydraulic Engineer, water is not an animate creature. ...



    But perhaps you would like to discuss RANS modeling? Or the shallow to intermediate depth Boussinesq Equation. 1D, 2D, or 3D, take your pick, I'm game.



    I think your job got in the way of clear thinking this time; too much time spend thinking one way, and it's easy to overlook the simple answer. What I'm saying is that these traffic problem are not straight flow. No, they are episodes of mergers, lane endings, blocked lanes, etc. At some point the cars need to merge, but it's not going to speed up traffic if everyone did this earlier. It will slow it down, in fact, because the unused part of the road could have accommodated cars. No amount of hydraulic modeling will give you this answer because water doesn't leave gaps.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 27 of 28
    franksargentfranksargent Posts: 4,694member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    I think your job got in the way of clear thinking this time; too much time spend thinking one way, and it's easy to overlook the simple answer. What I'm saying is that these traffic problem are not straight flow. No, they are episodes of mergers, lane endings, blocked lanes, etc. At some point the cars need to merge, but it's not going to speed up traffic if everyone did this earlier. It will slow it down, in fact, because the unused part of the road could have accommodated cars. No amount of hydraulic modeling will give you this answer because water doesn't leave gaps.



    Wrongo bucko. Ever hear of circulation cells? Or reverse circulation? Think about not moving forward at all or at a very slow net rate of forward movement in these virtually trapped areas. This happens all the time in real flow fields such as for instance river flows which are modeled as 1D flow fields which is the exact same situation we are dealing with here.



    My point exactly. Merging or interleaved traffic will never "flow" as efficiently as a fully coordinated flow field as occurs in nature. The flow inherently stagnates or backs up when the players are not a highly coordinated set of choreographed players. Then we get into what are conventionally called flow training structures. Something traffic engineers have yet to consider seriously. They're called flow straighteners and are sets of structures perpendicular to the flow field, and we know they work, otherwise we wouldn't use them in the first place. D'oh! Hydraulic engineers have been using them for hundreds of years to keep entrance channels clear for navigation purposes to maintain channel orientation and to insure that the channel does not become blocked due to trapped sedimentary buildup. In essence the trained flow moves through the coordinated set of obstructions much more efficiently than would otherwise occur if left to Mother Nature. The Mississippi River South & Southwest Pass into the GOM are excellent examples, from a purely hydraulic perspective.



    But at this point I don't really care what happens, so go ahead fill up all all lanes with stagnant traffic, human nature being what it is, I'll always be able to cut in on others, but others will never be able to cut in on me. I have a perfect track record in that regard.



    Oh, and I'm actually starting to cotton to the whole vigilante schtick. Creating artificial flow constrictions elsewhere behind the most forward point of blockage is a Good Thing™ simply because these artificial boundary conditions constrain the forward flow field to a fixed but ever decreasing mass of vehicles, via the continuity equation. Kind of like Tetris but with a lid on top and a hole on the bottom. Neat. Now I know which individual blocks will get out first, those being the ones more inline with the exit hole in keeping with the dictum of cutting in yourself, but not allowing others to cut in on you. It's actually an excellent gaming strategy, since all gaming players or blocks are not equally aware a priori.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 28 of 28
    bsenkabsenka Posts: 802member
    Side zoomers are selfish. Everyone else has to wait in line, but you don't? What makes you special? You're racing ahead to cut in front of people that are already waiting. Do you do that at the movies or when grocery shopping?



    I don't block the lane to stop them from zooming, but I sure as heck will go out of my way to make sure they have no space to merge.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
Sign In or Register to comment.