Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
You are overstating to make your point. Many Windows machines have the option of FireWire, but extremely few people take that option.
So few people use FireWire to the point of where devices that used to be FireWire only are offering a USB only option.
How long you think Apple's going to keep one of the old white plastic MacBooks in their product lineup? I give it 6-8 months; then that expensive unibody case will have become more affordable and they'll bring the price back down to $1099, killing the white plastic MacBook and with it any Mac laptop with Firewire for under two grand.
How does that change the fact that you can still spend less than $2000 (and significantly at that) to connect your DV camera.
5.) You can boot a Macbook using USB apparently. A few users on this board have tried it. This is new to me, but it would replace TDM.
Not completely, I don't think. A year ago I accidentally deleted some files and called in a consultant to restore them. He hooked up his MacBook to my Mini over Firewire and used his diagnostic and data-recovery software to do the job (I don't know how).
If there were no Firewire, he'd have had to load his software onto my machine, which he couldn't legally do. And the act of loading his software would have over-written some disk space that possibly included the files I was trying to recover. Alternatively, he could have removed my disk and accessed it somehow, but that would have been trickier and lengthier.
Maybe there's some smoother way of doing this that I'm unaware of; but if not, then being able to boot without Firewire doesn't solve all the problems.
Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...
I don't understand (and I'm not trying to rile you here)... if you're a recent Mac convert (welcome!), what Mac are you using without FireWire? Do you need a new MacBook for video work? (I know it would be great to HAVE one, but do you NEED one?) If you have a 16-month old camcorder, it probably uses DV tape, and you can get tons of tape for little or no money, so you can keep shooting outside or when traveling. You don't have to carry a computer at all, if you don't want, but a new MacBook would be nice for watching DVDs, email, GPS and mapping software, the internet. Then you come home, hook the camcorder up to your old Mac with FW, and digitize the tape. It's a 1:1 transfer process (meaning one minute of tape-based recording takes one minute to transfer to hard disk) and can be done on any old computer. I've been doing it since G3s and G4s, so a newer, faster Intel processor and better video card won't make it go any faster. Then you copy your video file by Ethernet or whatever to your MacBook if it has better performance for iMovie or FCP Express.
The external HD is more of a problem, but moving the drive mechanism to a case that has both ports or just USB will cost about $25, and you still have the old one for use as well -- it didn't go bad or even become obsolete just because the new MacBook can't use it.
As for billions of PCs in the world, well, most of those are sold to companies for business use, and none of those have FireWire. The consumer models sold sometimes have it as an option, but I'd wager the majority of people don't use it. Even people with a DV cam with FireWire and a PC with FireWire often never connect the two -- making movies is work and takes time. The lastest rage of Optical Disk-based cams or solid state media is removing the need for any port other than USB for the YouTubers. I doubt that "most families have a camcorder that uses FireWire" as you claim, and I'm sure the percentage of families that have: 1) a cam with FireWire, AND 2) a laptop computer with FireWire, AND --this is important-- 3) actually use the two together are a very small minority of the actual buying market seeking a new compact laptop computer.
The biggest limitation of no FireWire is no Target Disk mode, but even that is no good without a second Mac, so you're right back to my original notes on capturing video.
All that said, I feel your pain, and suggest you wait until tests on Barefeats.com have shown what the performance is like on the new macBooks over the old, and probably by then the new MBPs will be in the Apple store as refurbs at a good price point, or maybe if we're lucky, Apple will put FW back in the MacBook (I think this is unlikely) or maybe Apple will decide there's a market for 13" MBPs with ExpressCard slot that can be all things to all people, even me with my God-awful expensive $800 Sony SxS ExpressCard media cards that my camcorder uses instead of video tape. Once again, welcome to the world of Mac users -- it's great, but not perfect, and things change relatively fast. Owning a Mac is a lot like HD television: once you buy into it, it keeps taking more of your money and spoils you for anything else.
the MacBook offers nothing at all while approaching the price of a Lenovo W500 when fully equipped.
I bought my first iMac years ago for the soul purpose of connecting my video camera via FW. So I understand the need for the feature and I find it hard to believe that a tech company like Apple can't come up with a way to add this to the Macbook line.
That said I would in no way compare a Lenovo badged machine to an Apple or even an older IBM Thinkpad. The quality is just not there no matter what features it may have. I bought a Lenovo T61 a few months back when my IBM T42p needed to be serviced. The Lenovo machine isn't junk, but it is no where near as well constructed as the IBM machine and since I got back the T42p I use that the most. My next laptop will certainly be a MBA or another MBP (we have 2 MBP's in the house and they are hands down better machines then even my IBM T42p).
You are simply wrong on so many levels. The advantages of FW have been well articulated over the years. USB architecturally cannot even do Target Disk Mode which should tell you what a dumb connection it is to default to.
I will NEVER buy a Macbook without FW or some suprior form of connectivity. I got to thinking about it last night and frankly I don't lose out by buying a PC laptop all that much.
iPod...works as well on a PC
iPhone- works fine on a PC with MobileMe access
iTunes- fine
There's nothing really forcing me to use a Mac when I'm on the road.
I want a 13.3/14.1 Nehalem with expansion and FW. On the PC side this will be easy to find. We often say that "voting with your dollars and that's exactly what I'm going to do"
I'll gladly purchase an iMac provided FW is still there.
It's clear that these latest MacBooks were built by the marketing department.
They were purposely crippled.
Many professionals don't need a high end MacBook Pro for travel. Many wannabe's can't afford high end MacBook Pros. This latest offering screws both of them. The missing FireWire cripples these machines and makes them just a hunk of useless metal for anyone in media or music. No high speed connectivity replacement is provided or possible, no express slot to upgrade them. They're completely useless for the digital lifestyle and digital creators that Apple promotes.
Some professionals, especially professional wannabe's, only have one nice machine. If it's a laptop, then of course you get the MacBook Pro. Otherwise for heavy lifting, you get the big iron of the Mac Pro. For a second machine, you economize. Now, there's no way to do that now, other than to buy old technology.
If you have a pro desktop machine, you want an inexpensive machine to capture video on the road, or work with music files, or other media. Apple's strong point has always been media. Their machines have always been fully capable for media access, not stripped down. Even if you were a media wannabe, you bought Apple. These machines are intentionally crippled, useless computers. It's a shame Jon Ives design expertise was wasted on them. They're not for the digital lifestyle or digital creators.
I suggest avoiding MacBooks like the plague. Maybe Apple will return to building fully capable machines for the rest of us, rather than building them for the marketing department.
I've had Macintoshes since 1984. This is the first time I've felt the company really let us down.
Oh please! spare us. You guys with your statements of "purposely crippled", are a joke.
You have absolutely NO idea of what Apple's thinking in these matters are. None!
Oh please! spare us. You guys with your statements of "purposely crippled", are a joke.
You have absolutely NO idea of what Apple's thinking in these matters are. None!
You want to think that.
I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.
Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.
Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
Expresscard is a PCIe x1 lane + a USB port in one. A lot of Expresscard devices- like card readers and wireless cards- only use the USB connection.
But I don't think there's room for an Expresscard slot on the 13" Macbook. That thing's packed pretty tight.
I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.
Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
There are a lot of things that I would like Apple to do. I think that they could have figured out a way to get ExpressCard 34 into the machine. They just don't think it's important for these models. I don't agree. But, it's a cost and size thing.
We're going through this sort of thing on the Canon 5D mkII thread on the FredMiranda photo site (101 pages so far, and going strong!).
The camera body lists for $2,700, as opposed for Canon's more "pro" bodies, but there are some people there who think Canon is deliberately omitting many features from this camera that exists on those much more expensive models.
They just don't seem to understand that the more of those features that make it into the less expensive model, the more expensive it becomes, the larger it becomes, and the heavier it becomes.
With some people, logic is not their strong point.
The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
Expresscard is a PCIe x1 lane + a USB port in one. A lot of Expresscard devices- like card readers and wireless cards- only use the USB connection.
But I don't think there's room for an Expresscard slot on the 13" Macbook. That thing's packed pretty tight.
Sorry FPN ..I actually meant add the ExpressCard slot in lieu of the current USB ports. I'd love to have a laptop that was nigh endlessly configurable do to exchangable cards with different I/O options. Apple's kind of missing the boat on this by ignoring ExpressCard which soon will be on version 2.0 doubling the speed and supporting SuperSpeed USB (3.0)
There are a lot of things that I would like Apple to do. I think that they could have figured out a way to get ExpressCard 34 into the machine. They just don't think it's important for these models. I don't agree. But, it's a cost and size thing.
We're going through this sort of thing on the Canon 5D mkII thread on the FredMiranda photo site (101 pages so far, and going strong!).
The camera body lists for $2,700, as opposed for Canon's more "pro" bodies, but there are some people there who think Canon is deliberately omitting many features from this camera that exists on those much more expensive models.
They just don't seem to understand that the more of those features that make it into the less expensive model, the more expensive it becomes, the larger it becomes, and the heavier it becomes.
With some people, logic is not their strong point.
The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
Exactly...you can take a look at the 13" Macbooks and realize what a tight fit it is. But when space is an issue Apple needs to be looking at ways of reducing port footprint. I think ExpressCard slots and breakout cables provide functionality, extensibility and longevity if at the expense of aesthetics. I know ..I know..fat chance I see this happen with Apple soon. I'm just daring to dream.
Sorry FPN ..I actually meant add the ExpressCard slot in lieu of the current USB ports. I'd love to have a laptop that was nigh endlessly configurable do to exchangable cards with different I/O options. Apple's kind of missing the boat on this by ignoring ExpressCard which soon will be on version 2.0 doubling the speed and supporting SuperSpeed USB (3.0)
Exactly...you can take a look at the 13" Macbooks and realize what a tight fit it is. But when space is an issue Apple needs to be looking at ways of reducing port footprint. I think ExpressCard slots and breakout cables provide functionality, extensibility and longevity if at the expense of aesthetics. I know ..I know..fat chance I see this happen with Apple soon. I'm just daring to dream.
I have to sigh over this—Sigh!
Yes, Apple sometimes does things that are beyond understanding.
I've been looking at the breakdowns of the new machines, and they are tight indeed.
But that is also Apple's choice.
I don't think Apple limits what the Macbook can have inside by trying to limit it to less than what the pro has, even though some people here think that.
What I think they do is to look at what they think the market is. Then then apply their famous KISS rules.
After they make it as small and as light as they think they can, they fit in what they think is needed (which doesn't always mean what is DESIRED).
When they design the pro models, they ADD to what the consumer lines have, but again, only what they think is NEEDED.
Sometimes they screw up. Every company screws up, and Apple is surely no exception.
Lacking FW, the new MB's may be a screwup. They decided that certain features were more important than others. They could have added a FW chip to the machine. The Nvidia chip does not HAVE to support it directly, but cost and space got in the way of that.
What's more important to the vast majority of people owning Macbooks, a fast video subsystem (when compared to older models) or a FW 400 port?
Thanks for your answer zanshin… i tried to keep my answer short so did not explain why I need a Firewire port.
Yes I am a recent convert bought an Imac.
1)\tI travel a lot (work and pleasure) and take a laptop everywhere I go and always connect my, not so old, camcorder to see what I taped and transfer photos from my digicam to it.
2)\tI have my Imac but use my Toshiba laptop mostly when I´m at home. I also encode video on it.
3)\tI have my 2 external drives with firewire. (bought firewire because I read that is was a better connection) Yes I know I can buy a new housing for the hard drive with USB but everything takes time and money.
4)\tI can not believe that a computer of this quality does not have a simple firewire port or express card slot or sdcard reader when most laptops offer all of this for half the price. I could forgive the slots but also not having firewire makes one loose a lot of connectivity options.
5)\tHD cams are not a solution. Anything that moves will eventually fail. DV is still offering better quality and better storage. Always will be.
6)\tI have no experience with target Disk mode but understand that it works well so I can understand why you will miss it.
Truly this is a “stupid” and avoidable inconvenience that will probably make me buy another Toshiba or Sony that can read and write BD have a express slot, read SD etc and with that horrible Vista OS that I truly hate. I am really sad because I had my heart on one of these Macbooks. I truly hope they reconsider and give us other connectivity options. If they do this I will be buying one.
With some people, logic is not their strong point.
The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...
All one needs to do is look at the current consumer video cameras. Most new cameras offer a USB port along with FireWire and some are beginning to offer USB only.
That is how we know most PC users don't use FireWire. Their would be little use in the camera manufacturer spending money for the extra USB license if it wasn't needed.
As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.
Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.
It depends I think. The 12" Powerbook had a battery really small compared to the new MB battery. Apple could cut some battery size in the MB in favor of connectivity, but this would harm the power autonomy of the machine. It is obviously a matter of priorities and decision.
Comments
1 Macbook Sale lost here...
You are overstating to make your point. Many Windows machines have the option of FireWire, but extremely few people take that option.
So few people use FireWire to the point of where devices that used to be FireWire only are offering a USB only option.
If you BTO it, sure. But starting retail price for the in-store model is $2799.
Take a closer look at the Apple Store: http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/...A?mco=NzQ3Njkz There is one for $500 less, i.e., $2,799 - $500 = $2,299.
How long you think Apple's going to keep one of the old white plastic MacBooks in their product lineup? I give it 6-8 months; then that expensive unibody case will have become more affordable and they'll bring the price back down to $1099, killing the white plastic MacBook and with it any Mac laptop with Firewire for under two grand.
How does that change the fact that you can still spend less than $2000 (and significantly at that) to connect your DV camera.
5.) You can boot a Macbook using USB apparently. A few users on this board have tried it. This is new to me, but it would replace TDM.
Not completely, I don't think. A year ago I accidentally deleted some files and called in a consultant to restore them. He hooked up his MacBook to my Mini over Firewire and used his diagnostic and data-recovery software to do the job (I don't know how).
If there were no Firewire, he'd have had to load his software onto my machine, which he couldn't legally do. And the act of loading his software would have over-written some disk space that possibly included the files I was trying to recover. Alternatively, he could have removed my disk and accessed it somehow, but that would have been trickier and lengthier.
Maybe there's some smoother way of doing this that I'm unaware of; but if not, then being able to boot without Firewire doesn't solve all the problems.
Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...
I don't understand (and I'm not trying to rile you here)... if you're a recent Mac convert (welcome!), what Mac are you using without FireWire? Do you need a new MacBook for video work? (I know it would be great to HAVE one, but do you NEED one?) If you have a 16-month old camcorder, it probably uses DV tape, and you can get tons of tape for little or no money, so you can keep shooting outside or when traveling. You don't have to carry a computer at all, if you don't want, but a new MacBook would be nice for watching DVDs, email, GPS and mapping software, the internet. Then you come home, hook the camcorder up to your old Mac with FW, and digitize the tape. It's a 1:1 transfer process (meaning one minute of tape-based recording takes one minute to transfer to hard disk) and can be done on any old computer. I've been doing it since G3s and G4s, so a newer, faster Intel processor and better video card won't make it go any faster. Then you copy your video file by Ethernet or whatever to your MacBook if it has better performance for iMovie or FCP Express.
The external HD is more of a problem, but moving the drive mechanism to a case that has both ports or just USB will cost about $25, and you still have the old one for use as well -- it didn't go bad or even become obsolete just because the new MacBook can't use it.
As for billions of PCs in the world, well, most of those are sold to companies for business use, and none of those have FireWire. The consumer models sold sometimes have it as an option, but I'd wager the majority of people don't use it. Even people with a DV cam with FireWire and a PC with FireWire often never connect the two -- making movies is work and takes time. The lastest rage of Optical Disk-based cams or solid state media is removing the need for any port other than USB for the YouTubers. I doubt that "most families have a camcorder that uses FireWire" as you claim, and I'm sure the percentage of families that have: 1) a cam with FireWire, AND 2) a laptop computer with FireWire, AND --this is important-- 3) actually use the two together are a very small minority of the actual buying market seeking a new compact laptop computer.
The biggest limitation of no FireWire is no Target Disk mode, but even that is no good without a second Mac, so you're right back to my original notes on capturing video.
All that said, I feel your pain, and suggest you wait until tests on Barefeats.com have shown what the performance is like on the new macBooks over the old, and probably by then the new MBPs will be in the Apple store as refurbs at a good price point, or maybe if we're lucky, Apple will put FW back in the MacBook (I think this is unlikely) or maybe Apple will decide there's a market for 13" MBPs with ExpressCard slot that can be all things to all people, even me with my God-awful expensive $800 Sony SxS ExpressCard media cards that my camcorder uses instead of video tape. Once again, welcome to the world of Mac users -- it's great, but not perfect, and things change relatively fast. Owning a Mac is a lot like HD television: once you buy into it, it keeps taking more of your money and spoils you for anything else.
the MacBook offers nothing at all while approaching the price of a Lenovo W500 when fully equipped.
I bought my first iMac years ago for the soul purpose of connecting my video camera via FW. So I understand the need for the feature and I find it hard to believe that a tech company like Apple can't come up with a way to add this to the Macbook line.
That said I would in no way compare a Lenovo badged machine to an Apple or even an older IBM Thinkpad. The quality is just not there no matter what features it may have. I bought a Lenovo T61 a few months back when my IBM T42p needed to be serviced. The Lenovo machine isn't junk, but it is no where near as well constructed as the IBM machine and since I got back the T42p I use that the most. My next laptop will certainly be a MBA or another MBP (we have 2 MBP's in the house and they are hands down better machines then even my IBM T42p).
You are simply wrong on so many levels. The advantages of FW have been well articulated over the years. USB architecturally cannot even do Target Disk Mode which should tell you what a dumb connection it is to default to.
I will NEVER buy a Macbook without FW or some suprior form of connectivity. I got to thinking about it last night and frankly I don't lose out by buying a PC laptop all that much.
iPod...works as well on a PC
iPhone- works fine on a PC with MobileMe access
iTunes- fine
There's nothing really forcing me to use a Mac when I'm on the road.
I want a 13.3/14.1 Nehalem with expansion and FW. On the PC side this will be easy to find. We often say that "voting with your dollars and that's exactly what I'm going to do"
I'll gladly purchase an iMac provided FW is still there.
It's clear that these latest MacBooks were built by the marketing department.
They were purposely crippled.
Many professionals don't need a high end MacBook Pro for travel. Many wannabe's can't afford high end MacBook Pros. This latest offering screws both of them. The missing FireWire cripples these machines and makes them just a hunk of useless metal for anyone in media or music. No high speed connectivity replacement is provided or possible, no express slot to upgrade them. They're completely useless for the digital lifestyle and digital creators that Apple promotes.
Some professionals, especially professional wannabe's, only have one nice machine. If it's a laptop, then of course you get the MacBook Pro. Otherwise for heavy lifting, you get the big iron of the Mac Pro. For a second machine, you economize. Now, there's no way to do that now, other than to buy old technology.
If you have a pro desktop machine, you want an inexpensive machine to capture video on the road, or work with music files, or other media. Apple's strong point has always been media. Their machines have always been fully capable for media access, not stripped down. Even if you were a media wannabe, you bought Apple. These machines are intentionally crippled, useless computers. It's a shame Jon Ives design expertise was wasted on them. They're not for the digital lifestyle or digital creators.
I suggest avoiding MacBooks like the plague. Maybe Apple will return to building fully capable machines for the rest of us, rather than building them for the marketing department.
I've had Macintoshes since 1984. This is the first time I've felt the company really let us down.
Oh please! spare us. You guys with your statements of "purposely crippled", are a joke.
You have absolutely NO idea of what Apple's thinking in these matters are. None!
You want to think that.
Oh please! spare us. You guys with your statements of "purposely crippled", are a joke.
You have absolutely NO idea of what Apple's thinking in these matters are. None!
You want to think that.
I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.
Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.
Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
Expresscard is a PCIe x1 lane + a USB port in one. A lot of Expresscard devices- like card readers and wireless cards- only use the USB connection.
But I don't think there's room for an Expresscard slot on the 13" Macbook. That thing's packed pretty tight.
I tend to agree Melgross. As much as I dislike the configuration of these laptops I look at the internals and I've yet to see a schematic showing native FW support in the nvidia chipset. I think FW was a casualty of the design process and Apple is simply attempting to justify it.
Frankly I don't see why Apple and other companies just don't add an ExpressCard 34 slot and then sell different breakout boxes with 4 USB and a Firewire port or 2 FW and 2 USB (I'm not sure if bandwidth permits IRC EC34 is 250MBps bandwidth)
There are a lot of things that I would like Apple to do. I think that they could have figured out a way to get ExpressCard 34 into the machine. They just don't think it's important for these models. I don't agree. But, it's a cost and size thing.
We're going through this sort of thing on the Canon 5D mkII thread on the FredMiranda photo site (101 pages so far, and going strong!).
The camera body lists for $2,700, as opposed for Canon's more "pro" bodies, but there are some people there who think Canon is deliberately omitting many features from this camera that exists on those much more expensive models.
They just don't seem to understand that the more of those features that make it into the less expensive model, the more expensive it becomes, the larger it becomes, and the heavier it becomes.
With some people, logic is not their strong point.
The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
Expresscard is a PCIe x1 lane + a USB port in one. A lot of Expresscard devices- like card readers and wireless cards- only use the USB connection.
But I don't think there's room for an Expresscard slot on the 13" Macbook. That thing's packed pretty tight.
Sorry FPN ..I actually meant add the ExpressCard slot in lieu of the current USB ports. I'd love to have a laptop that was nigh endlessly configurable do to exchangable cards with different I/O options. Apple's kind of missing the boat on this by ignoring ExpressCard which soon will be on version 2.0 doubling the speed and supporting SuperSpeed USB (3.0)
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/03/e...er-speeds-soon
There are a lot of things that I would like Apple to do. I think that they could have figured out a way to get ExpressCard 34 into the machine. They just don't think it's important for these models. I don't agree. But, it's a cost and size thing.
We're going through this sort of thing on the Canon 5D mkII thread on the FredMiranda photo site (101 pages so far, and going strong!).
The camera body lists for $2,700, as opposed for Canon's more "pro" bodies, but there are some people there who think Canon is deliberately omitting many features from this camera that exists on those much more expensive models.
They just don't seem to understand that the more of those features that make it into the less expensive model, the more expensive it becomes, the larger it becomes, and the heavier it becomes.
With some people, logic is not their strong point.
The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
Exactly...you can take a look at the 13" Macbooks and realize what a tight fit it is. But when space is an issue Apple needs to be looking at ways of reducing port footprint. I think ExpressCard slots and breakout cables provide functionality, extensibility and longevity if at the expense of aesthetics. I know ..I know..fat chance I see this happen with Apple soon. I'm just daring to dream.
Sorry FPN ..I actually meant add the ExpressCard slot in lieu of the current USB ports. I'd love to have a laptop that was nigh endlessly configurable do to exchangable cards with different I/O options. Apple's kind of missing the boat on this by ignoring ExpressCard which soon will be on version 2.0 doubling the speed and supporting SuperSpeed USB (3.0)
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/03/e...er-speeds-soon
Exactly...you can take a look at the 13" Macbooks and realize what a tight fit it is. But when space is an issue Apple needs to be looking at ways of reducing port footprint. I think ExpressCard slots and breakout cables provide functionality, extensibility and longevity if at the expense of aesthetics. I know ..I know..fat chance I see this happen with Apple soon. I'm just daring to dream.
I have to sigh over this—Sigh!
Yes, Apple sometimes does things that are beyond understanding.
I've been looking at the breakdowns of the new machines, and they are tight indeed.
But that is also Apple's choice.
I don't think Apple limits what the Macbook can have inside by trying to limit it to less than what the pro has, even though some people here think that.
What I think they do is to look at what they think the market is. Then then apply their famous KISS rules.
After they make it as small and as light as they think they can, they fit in what they think is needed (which doesn't always mean what is DESIRED).
When they design the pro models, they ADD to what the consumer lines have, but again, only what they think is NEEDED.
Sometimes they screw up. Every company screws up, and Apple is surely no exception.
Lacking FW, the new MB's may be a screwup. They decided that certain features were more important than others. They could have added a FW chip to the machine. The Nvidia chip does not HAVE to support it directly, but cost and space got in the way of that.
What's more important to the vast majority of people owning Macbooks, a fast video subsystem (when compared to older models) or a FW 400 port?
Did you check out the cost of a Sony Vaio with Blu Ray? Please include specs.
Out of curiosity, taking a quick look at SonyStyle.com I see 14 different models that come with a Blu-Ray drive as standard starting at under $1500.
$1449 gets you...
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor P8600 (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-ECO™ widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 250GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc™ playback, ATI™ graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI ™ out and titanium gray exterior
$1599 gets you...
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.40 GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 17" widescreen LCD display, 3GB RAM, 400GB hard drive (200GBx2), NVIDIA® graphics, Blu-ray Disc™ optical drive, HDMI output
$1849 gets you...
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-FullHD™ widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 500GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc™ playback, ATI™ graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI ™ out.
Models under $2000 play back Blu-Ray media. Models above $2000 record to Blu-Ray media as well. HDMI output is standard.
Out of curiosity, taking a quick look at SonyStyle.com I see 14 different models that come with a Blu-Ray drive as standard starting at under $1500.
$1449 gets you...
Intel® Core?2 Duo Processor P8600 (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-ECO? widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 250GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc? playback, ATI? graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI ? out and titanium gray exterior
$1599 gets you...
Intel® Core? 2 Duo Processor T8300 (2.40 GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 17" widescreen LCD display, 3GB RAM, 400GB hard drive (200GBx2), NVIDIA® graphics, Blu-ray Disc? optical drive, HDMI output
$1849 gets you...
Intel® Core?2 Duo Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L2 Cache) 16.4" XBRITE-FullHD? widescreen LCD, 4GB RAM, 500GB Hard Drive, Blu-ray Disc? playback, ATI? graphics with 512MB vRAM, webcam, Bluetooth®, HDMI ? out.
Models under $2000 play back Blu-Ray media. Models above $2000 record to Blu-Ray media as well. HDMI output is standard.
We are talking about Macbooks 13", Blu-Ray writers/readers.
Couldn't find a laptop under $3000 with Blu-Ray writer ($500) http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154
Next time send links.
Yes I am a recent convert bought an Imac.
1)\tI travel a lot (work and pleasure) and take a laptop everywhere I go and always connect my, not so old, camcorder to see what I taped and transfer photos from my digicam to it.
2)\tI have my Imac but use my Toshiba laptop mostly when I´m at home. I also encode video on it.
3)\tI have my 2 external drives with firewire. (bought firewire because I read that is was a better connection) Yes I know I can buy a new housing for the hard drive with USB but everything takes time and money.
4)\tI can not believe that a computer of this quality does not have a simple firewire port or express card slot or sdcard reader when most laptops offer all of this for half the price. I could forgive the slots but also not having firewire makes one loose a lot of connectivity options.
5)\tHD cams are not a solution. Anything that moves will eventually fail. DV is still offering better quality and better storage. Always will be.
6)\tI have no experience with target Disk mode but understand that it works well so I can understand why you will miss it.
Truly this is a “stupid” and avoidable inconvenience that will probably make me buy another Toshiba or Sony that can read and write BD have a express slot, read SD etc and with that horrible Vista OS that I truly hate. I am really sad because I had my heart on one of these Macbooks. I truly hope they reconsider and give us other connectivity options. If they do this I will be buying one.
With some people, logic is not their strong point.
The difference in size between a 15.4" machine and a 13.3" machine should tell them that there is just more room inside, and at the edges, but they don't want to hear that.
As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.
Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.
As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.
Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.
The 12" PB has a thicker case that isn't tapered on the edges like the new MB.
Yep, as a recent Mac usert I will dump my latest camcorder that is only 16months old and also throw away my external hard drive and buy everything new, WOW fantastic solution. Most families have a camcorder that uses firewire so I do not know where you get the idea that most pc users dont use firewire. Actually I would bet that the opposite of what you said is true. . How else would you pass your DV to a PC? I am realy angry about this because I wanted to fully migrate to Mac OS (no im not rich so cant afford a Macbook pro and no I do not want the plastic option.
1 Macbook Sale lost here...
All one needs to do is look at the current consumer video cameras. Most new cameras offer a USB port along with FireWire and some are beginning to offer USB only.
That is how we know most PC users don't use FireWire. Their would be little use in the camera manufacturer spending money for the extra USB license if it wasn't needed.
As I have mentioned numerous times, the smaller 12" PowerBook - which I was happy to own - had all the current MacBook ports.
And it had a modem port and a Firewire port.
Lack of space cannot possibly be an excuse.
It depends I think. The 12" Powerbook had a battery really small compared to the new MB battery. Apple could cut some battery size in the MB in favor of connectivity, but this would harm the power autonomy of the machine. It is obviously a matter of priorities and decision.
Out of curiosity, taking a quick look at SonyStyle.com I see 14 different models that come with a Blu-Ray drive as standard starting at under $1500.
Models under $2000 play back Blu-Ray media. Models above $2000 record to Blu-Ray media as well. HDMI output is standard.
Well its Sony. Blu-ray is their format. They want people to adopt it so they make lots of money on licensing.