well,whatever you say.... you are using a product or service with out paying the fee set by the manufacturer/producer/maker to user the product or service, thus it is illegal.
even if you said "I was never going to buy it anyway", then you have no right to have it. it is hard to compare it to anything because piracy is unlike many other forms of stealing.
When you steal bread, it (as said above) makes it so the producer loses a sale and loses the bread.
When you sneak into a movie, the movie theater and the maker of the film lose.
So, stealing is wrong, and there is no way anyone can say : "I was never going to buy it anyway." or "$129 is way way to high"
well, as i said above, if you do not want to pay the fee, you can not use the product or service.
Also, it has been 18 months since apple made you pay for an OS upgrade, so be thankful people! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
[quote]My point was, if a potential Volvo customer steals a Volvo that they were otherwise going to purchase, Volvo loses twice: They lose the potential sale of a car to 'potential' customer AND they lose the ability to sell the stolen Volvo to any other customer.<hr></blockquote>
No you basically don't understand--how can you sell something twice? If someone steals the hypothetical Volvo they lose the ability to sell the car period, whether to a potential or any other customer. You can only sell a this hypothetical commodity once.
If you steal something from Apple they lose the sale. Doesn't matter if its on CD, engraved on the side of an elephant or virtual.
If someone downloads a copy of 10.2 from Hotline instead of buying it, Apple don't lose any money since they never had the money in first place. But ofcourse, they would make more money if everyone bought their copy of 10.2.
<strong>If someone downloads a copy of 10.2 from Hotline instead of buying it, Apple don't lose any money since they never had the money in first place. But ofcourse, they would make more money if everyone bought their copy of 10.2.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suppose the man-hours that went into creating 10.2 Jaguar isn't considered money to you?
[quote] You make me sick! Downloading pirated software is no different than going into Best Buy and walking out with a Stereo. I wish they would arrest people for this kind of thing. <hr></blockquote>
Please read the post right before yours, I don't think it's OK to download commericial software, my point was just that they can't lose money they never had.
<strong>well,whatever you say.... you are using a product or service with out paying the fee set by the manufacturer/producer/maker to user the product or service, thus it is illegal.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No argument. It is illegal. That is fact.
[quote]Originally posted by Nebagakid:
<strong>
even if you said "I was never going to buy it anyway", then you have no right to have it. it is hard to compare it to anything because piracy is unlike many other forms of stealing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you are correct. I have no 'right' to have it. And you stated my one and only point. Piracy is unlike many other forms of stealing. That was my point. I wasn't saying that piracy is justified or okay. It is different, and it does have the ability to minimize losses. This does not mean that there still isn't losses, and it certainly does not mean that it is 'right' or 'legal'.
[quote]Originally posted by Nebagakid:
<strong>
When you sneak into a movie, the movie theater and the maker of the film lose.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This indicates you still don't understand my point. If it was a movie that you would never consider paying for... did the movie theater actually lose? Of course, if you would have paid for the movie but instead you sneak in, the theater loses.
Personally, I *do* think the movie theater loses, so we agree. But I think it is debatable if the theater never had your business to begin with.
[quote]Originally posted by Nebagakid:
<strong>
So, stealing is wrong, and there is no way anyone can say : "I was never going to buy it anyway." or "$129 is way way to high"
well, as i said above, if you do not want to pay the fee, you can not use the product or service.
Also, it has been 18 months since apple made you pay for an OS upgrade, so be thankful people! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay, stealing is wrong. Piracy is stealing, therefore piracy is wrong. We agree.
But certainly one can honestly make a statement that they were never going to buy the product.
Likely, 95% of people can honestly make the statement, "I am never go to pay $1200.00 for Mathematica." Wolfram Research (makers of Mathematica) have less than a 5% customer base with their product costing $1200. If one of those people happen to pirate Mathematica... Did Wolfram lose a sale? That is what I'm debating.
No you basically don't understand--how can you sell something twice? If someone steals the hypothetical Volvo they lose the ability to sell the car period, whether to a potential or any other customer. You can only sell a this hypothetical commodity once.
If you steal something from Apple they lose the sale. Doesn't matter if its on CD, engraved on the side of an elephant or virtual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please, if you will not listen to me, listen to Fobie at least. He seems to be the only one who grasps what I am saying.
And get this straight. I have put my order in for the MacOS X Family Pack. I don't care whether or not I can install the single pack on multiple machines, I am still willing to pay the extra $80 to be honest.
You guys think because of what I'm posting, I pirate software. You are wrong.
I do disagree with Fobie in that I think Apple CAN lose money to piracy, if they are losing sales due to piracy. But his point is that it is potential sales, not sales. Really, I wish you folks would get a little less emotional about this, and try to understand what we are saying.
And I think both Fobie and I are NOT saying pirating is okay and justified. I have stronger feelings about piracy than most people I believe. I pay for all shareware whether its crippled or not. I pay for EVERY Apple upgrade and will continue to do so. I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on software that I COULD have gotten illegally, but did not because it would have ripped the companies off if I had.
No you basically don't understand--how can you sell something twice? If someone steals the hypothetical Volvo they lose the ability to sell the car period, whether to a potential or any other customer. You can only sell a this hypothetical commodity once.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I likely worded it improperly. My fault.
IF the person physically stealing the car would have never bought a Volvo. Volvo did not lose a sale (potential revenue), they lost the physical material (spent capital). They are out the expense of the car (forget insurance).
IF the person physically stealing the car would have been a Volvo customer, but now is not because he now owns a stolen Volvo. Volvo not only lost the sale (potential revenue) but they also lost the material (capital).
----------------------
Losing a sale IS not equal to losing the product.
----------------------
If it was it would be like, every time a person went to a lot to look at a Volvo and then decided not to buy it, they would have to torch the Volvo. That is equivelent to a potential buyer of a VOlvo stealing one instead of buying one.
If you steal something from Apple they lose the sale. Doesn't matter if its on CD, engraved on the side of an elephant or virtual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It does not necessarily follow that if you 'pirate' from Apple that they lose the sale.
This is were we disagree.
They will have only lost the sale if the person who got the product was a potential customer.
Go to an extreme. If I made a copy of OSX.2 and mailed it to the middle of an African or SouthAmerican Jungle to a tribe that doesn't even have a money system much less money itself. Did Apple just lose money? I don't think so. Even if these fellows had a G4 left by some research group... IF they would have never EVER bought Final Cut from Apple (they have no means), I just don't see how you can say, right at that point, Apple lost money or even potential money. The potential sale never existed.
I am going to get the family pack... but I am wondering if i can get it from macmall (or some other internet based mac reseller...) see I dont want to have to pay taxes on my purchase....
short of going to NH and buying it there... where else can i get the family pack for $200 (not $216)
you know what else is crazy? I hat to pay taxes for my .mac membership <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I am going to get the family pack... but I am wondering if i can get it from macmall (or some other internet based mac reseller...) see I dont want to have to pay taxes on my purchase....
short of going to NH and buying it there... where else can i get the family pack for $200 (not $216)
you know what else is crazy? I hat to pay taxes for my .mac membership <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I did a quick look before I bought it from the Apple Store. I couldn't find anything, so I went ahead and paid the taxes.
Sorry, if you find it somewhere, please post. Thanks.
Sure I do, but still, they can't lose money they never had.
And no, I don't think it's OK to download 10.2.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They did lose money. You stole something worth a certain amount of money. This money was supposed go towards recouping their initial costs. If the world worked the way you pretend it works, there's be no industry.
You were never going to pay for <insert item> anyway. <insert company> can't lose money it never had!
[quote]If it was it would be like, every time a person went to a lot to look at a Volvo and then decided not to buy it, they would have to torch the Volvo. That is equivelent to a potential buyer of a VOlvo stealing one instead of buying one. <hr></blockquote>
No, it's the equivalent of finding a source of free Volvos. If you could get a Volvo for free, why would you pay for it? Why would I go buy a Volvo instead of getting a free stolen one? Why would Volvo manufacture cars that don't make them any money? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
They would have never had that money anyway, right? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
No, it's the equivalent of finding a source of free Volvos. If you could get a Volvo for free, why would you pay for it? Why would I go buy a Volvo instead of getting a free stolen one? Why would Volvo manufacture cars that don't make them any money?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would you buy a Volvo instead of getting a free stolen one?
1) Because it is illegal
2) Because Volvo loses a potential sale, which if enough people did the same thing, Volvo would quit making cars, and there would eventually not be any Volvos avaliable to steal OR buy.
Comments
even if you said "I was never going to buy it anyway", then you have no right to have it. it is hard to compare it to anything because piracy is unlike many other forms of stealing.
When you steal bread, it (as said above) makes it so the producer loses a sale and loses the bread.
When you sneak into a movie, the movie theater and the maker of the film lose.
So, stealing is wrong, and there is no way anyone can say : "I was never going to buy it anyway." or "$129 is way way to high"
well, as i said above, if you do not want to pay the fee, you can not use the product or service.
Also, it has been 18 months since apple made you pay for an OS upgrade, so be thankful people! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
No you basically don't understand--how can you sell something twice? If someone steals the hypothetical Volvo they lose the ability to sell the car period, whether to a potential or any other customer. You can only sell a this hypothetical commodity once.
If you steal something from Apple they lose the sale. Doesn't matter if its on CD, engraved on the side of an elephant or virtual.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Fobie ]</p>
<strong>If someone downloads a copy of 10.2 from Hotline instead of buying it, Apple don't lose any money since they never had the money in first place. But ofcourse, they would make more money if everyone bought their copy of 10.2.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I suppose the man-hours that went into creating 10.2 Jaguar isn't considered money to you?
Sure I do, but still, they can't lose money they never had.
And no, I don't think it's OK to download 10.2.
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Fobie ]</p>
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Son of Pismo ]</p>
Please read the post right before yours, I don't think it's OK to download commericial software, my point was just that they can't lose money they never had.
But still, they 'lose' money they could have.
<strong>well,whatever you say.... you are using a product or service with out paying the fee set by the manufacturer/producer/maker to user the product or service, thus it is illegal.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No argument. It is illegal. That is fact.
[quote]Originally posted by Nebagakid:
<strong>
even if you said "I was never going to buy it anyway", then you have no right to have it. it is hard to compare it to anything because piracy is unlike many other forms of stealing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you are correct. I have no 'right' to have it. And you stated my one and only point. Piracy is unlike many other forms of stealing. That was my point. I wasn't saying that piracy is justified or okay. It is different, and it does have the ability to minimize losses. This does not mean that there still isn't losses, and it certainly does not mean that it is 'right' or 'legal'.
[quote]Originally posted by Nebagakid:
<strong>
When you sneak into a movie, the movie theater and the maker of the film lose.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This indicates you still don't understand my point. If it was a movie that you would never consider paying for... did the movie theater actually lose? Of course, if you would have paid for the movie but instead you sneak in, the theater loses.
Personally, I *do* think the movie theater loses, so we agree. But I think it is debatable if the theater never had your business to begin with.
[quote]Originally posted by Nebagakid:
<strong>
So, stealing is wrong, and there is no way anyone can say : "I was never going to buy it anyway." or "$129 is way way to high"
well, as i said above, if you do not want to pay the fee, you can not use the product or service.
Also, it has been 18 months since apple made you pay for an OS upgrade, so be thankful people! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay, stealing is wrong. Piracy is stealing, therefore piracy is wrong. We agree.
But certainly one can honestly make a statement that they were never going to buy the product.
Likely, 95% of people can honestly make the statement, "I am never go to pay $1200.00 for Mathematica." Wolfram Research (makers of Mathematica) have less than a 5% customer base with their product costing $1200. If one of those people happen to pirate Mathematica... Did Wolfram lose a sale? That is what I'm debating.
<strong>
No you basically don't understand--how can you sell something twice? If someone steals the hypothetical Volvo they lose the ability to sell the car period, whether to a potential or any other customer. You can only sell a this hypothetical commodity once.
If you steal something from Apple they lose the sale. Doesn't matter if its on CD, engraved on the side of an elephant or virtual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please, if you will not listen to me, listen to Fobie at least. He seems to be the only one who grasps what I am saying.
And get this straight. I have put my order in for the MacOS X Family Pack. I don't care whether or not I can install the single pack on multiple machines, I am still willing to pay the extra $80 to be honest.
You guys think because of what I'm posting, I pirate software. You are wrong.
I do disagree with Fobie in that I think Apple CAN lose money to piracy, if they are losing sales due to piracy. But his point is that it is potential sales, not sales. Really, I wish you folks would get a little less emotional about this, and try to understand what we are saying.
And I think both Fobie and I are NOT saying pirating is okay and justified. I have stronger feelings about piracy than most people I believe. I pay for all shareware whether its crippled or not. I pay for EVERY Apple upgrade and will continue to do so. I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on software that I COULD have gotten illegally, but did not because it would have ripped the companies off if I had.
<strong>
No you basically don't understand--how can you sell something twice? If someone steals the hypothetical Volvo they lose the ability to sell the car period, whether to a potential or any other customer. You can only sell a this hypothetical commodity once.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I likely worded it improperly. My fault.
IF the person physically stealing the car would have never bought a Volvo. Volvo did not lose a sale (potential revenue), they lost the physical material (spent capital). They are out the expense of the car (forget insurance).
IF the person physically stealing the car would have been a Volvo customer, but now is not because he now owns a stolen Volvo. Volvo not only lost the sale (potential revenue) but they also lost the material (capital).
----------------------
Losing a sale IS not equal to losing the product.
----------------------
If it was it would be like, every time a person went to a lot to look at a Volvo and then decided not to buy it, they would have to torch the Volvo. That is equivelent to a potential buyer of a VOlvo stealing one instead of buying one.
<strong>So....how about that family pack? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I ordered mine yesterday!!
I think it is great that Apple is offering the family pack!
I gladly put down my $200.00
...
and I gladly paid my $120 (100?) for OS X.1
and I gladly paid my $100 (120?) for OS X
and I gladly paid my $100 for OS 9.1
and I gladly paid my $100 for OS 9
... you get the point!
(and yes I paid the full price instead of just the upgrade price)
<strong>
If you steal something from Apple they lose the sale. Doesn't matter if its on CD, engraved on the side of an elephant or virtual.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It does not necessarily follow that if you 'pirate' from Apple that they lose the sale.
This is were we disagree.
They will have only lost the sale if the person who got the product was a potential customer.
Go to an extreme. If I made a copy of OSX.2 and mailed it to the middle of an African or SouthAmerican Jungle to a tribe that doesn't even have a money system much less money itself. Did Apple just lose money? I don't think so. Even if these fellows had a G4 left by some research group... IF they would have never EVER bought Final Cut from Apple (they have no means), I just don't see how you can say, right at that point, Apple lost money or even potential money. The potential sale never existed.
short of going to NH and buying it there... where else can i get the family pack for $200 (not $216)
you know what else is crazy? I hat to pay taxes for my .mac membership <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I am going to get the family pack... but I am wondering if i can get it from macmall (or some other internet based mac reseller...) see I dont want to have to pay taxes on my purchase....
short of going to NH and buying it there... where else can i get the family pack for $200 (not $216)
you know what else is crazy? I hat to pay taxes for my .mac membership <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I did a quick look before I bought it from the Apple Store. I couldn't find anything, so I went ahead and paid the taxes.
Sorry, if you find it somewhere, please post. Thanks.
engpjp
I also have 4 PC's and have not updated to XP as I refuse to pay full price for 4 XP versions.
I have already converted 2 machines to Suse.
Dobby
<strong>
Sure I do, but still, they can't lose money they never had.
And no, I don't think it's OK to download 10.2.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They did lose money. You stole something worth a certain amount of money. This money was supposed go towards recouping their initial costs. If the world worked the way you pretend it works, there's be no industry.
You were never going to pay for <insert item> anyway. <insert company> can't lose money it never had!
[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
No, it's the equivalent of finding a source of free Volvos. If you could get a Volvo for free, why would you pay for it? Why would I go buy a Volvo instead of getting a free stolen one? Why would Volvo manufacture cars that don't make them any money? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
They would have never had that money anyway, right? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>
No, it's the equivalent of finding a source of free Volvos. If you could get a Volvo for free, why would you pay for it? Why would I go buy a Volvo instead of getting a free stolen one? Why would Volvo manufacture cars that don't make them any money?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would you buy a Volvo instead of getting a free stolen one?
1) Because it is illegal
2) Because Volvo loses a potential sale, which if enough people did the same thing, Volvo would quit making cars, and there would eventually not be any Volvos avaliable to steal OR buy.