Its official, Windows copies the dock (among other things)

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
I'm not one of those huge mac fans that says Microsoft copies everything from mac, but look at the new Windows 7 features. The task bar is so much like the dock now. Big icons, can right click them. Just like the dock.



Also looking at the new explorer, so much like the finder in design, specifically the way the sources are listed on the left hand side. They simplified it and it just reminds me of how the finder is.



http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...windows-7.html



Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 21
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,425member
    Wow ..that's sexy. Apple is Dooomed.



  • Reply 2 of 21
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Looking at the comments on this Ars story over on digg is a confusing experience. To me this looks like Vista, really. Those screen shots look truly cluttered. Jesus, thank God I'm using the Mac. That UI looks terrible, truly painful stuff.
  • Reply 3 of 21
    It definitely still looks cluttered and same windows look. But the concept of using icons and the way it functions is very Mac
  • Reply 4 of 21
    pt123pt123 Posts: 696member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blascock View Post


    I'm not one of those huge mac fans that says Microsoft copies everything from mac, but look at the new Windows 7 features. The task bar is so much like the dock now. Big icons, can right click them. Just like the dock.



    Also looking at the new explorer, so much like the finder in design, specifically the way the sources are listed on the left hand side. They simplified it and it just reminds me of how the finder is.



    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...windows-7.html



    Any thoughts?



    I thought Windows 98 had icons in the task bar? But nevertheless, I think it is a good thing that Windows, Mac and Linux look a lot alike. For those of us that have to use it, it makes it much easier to go between them.
  • Reply 5 of 21
    OS X's dock is intrusive. I would just like something in the top menu bar.
  • Reply 6 of 21
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,357moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BigZ View Post


    OS X's dock is intrusive. I would just like something in the top menu bar.



    Turn on dock hiding.



    Putting it in the menu bar limits the space that apps have for menu options. If you had a significantly large display, it might be nice to have as an option. I do like the idea of having just one space for content that is always on top but it would have to be the menu.



    They could have had something like the menu system you get when you right-click a dock icon and put all the menu items in there. So instead of The Finder showing 'Hide' when you right-click, it would show 'file, edit, view, go, window, help'. Then you would just get nested menus beyond that like the main menu bar. The Apple icon would go in the Dock to the left of the Finder and the menu bar wouldn't be needed.



    It gets troublesome the more items that have to go in there though like the clock and the status icons because dock size affects the ability to see the time.



    This kind of setup allows you to easily have multiple displays and be able to have quick access to all menus and application launching as you just mirror the dock (they could do this now of course). Apps would appear in the window you launched them in.



    The Dock is better than the menu bar for space as it expands to what you need.



    It is probably a bit slower for accessing a menu directly but it would allow you to access a background app menu without bringing it forwards. So you could do a file open by right clicking Photoshop while inside another app. Photoshop could even be closed. What would be cool is if you could have say an image open in Indesign, use the contextual menu of Photoshop and run a PS filter without doing a whole load of copying and pasting.



    You get the issue of menu sets though. Menu selections can change based on context and this won't be noticeable immediately - probably not possible actually, you'd probably need to have all options visible at all times.



    I'm sure that people have thought these issue through for countless hours and have decided that the menu + dock works best to accommodate most apps.



    I agree about the interface being cluttered in Windows 7. The use of transparency is appalling.



    Regarding style, I think Apple should go for subtle. I would love it if Snow Leopard toned down the drop shadows, defaulted to the black, flat dock and kept the menu bar solid.
  • Reply 7 of 21
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,402member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BigZ View Post


    OS X's dock is intrusive. I would just like something in the top menu bar.



    What I think you want is something similar to taskmenubar. This was a great Classic Mac OS shareware app that put icons of opened apps in the menubar and it highlighted the app that you had currently selected. If you wanted to switch to another app, all you had to do was click once on one of the other icons in the menubar. If you wanted to swtich to another app while hiding all other apps, you just clicked twice on that apps icon.



    Here is what it looked like for classic:





    Here's the link to the site:

    http://home.netcom.com/~kawahara/taskmenubar.html



    Given OS X's superior graphics, I'm sure a better looking one could be made for OSX.



    By the way, you could also put folders and other stuff into taskmenubar.
  • Reply 8 of 21
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,402member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Turn on dock hiding.



    Marvin, that stinks (to me anyway) because then you have to move the mouse over to the screen edge and then place it in a small designated area to get the dock to pop up. This is such a waste of time and effort IMO. And what if you just want to see which apps you have open? You'd have to move the mouse and aim it to make the dock pop up or apple-tab to bring up the list of open apps. With taskmenubar, you can see which apps are open by just moving your eyes a few inches to the top of the screen. This is the easiest way I have seen yet...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Putting it in the menu bar limits the space that apps have for menu options.



    True but I never had a big issue with area on my 15 inch screen when I was using taskmenubar.









    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    They could have had something like the menu system you get when you right-click a dock icon and put all the menu items in there. So instead of The Finder showing 'Hide' when you right-click, it would show 'file, edit, view, go, window, help'. Then you would just get nested menus beyond that like the main menu bar. The Apple icon would go in the Dock to the left of the Finder and the menu bar wouldn't be needed.



    Taskmenubar was the easiest way that I have ever used to switch and switch-hide between apps. You only need one hand to do these things.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    The Dock is better than the menu bar for space as it expands to what you need.



    Yeah but it takes screen space. And if its not filled up, there is that empty space at the edges of the dock to the screen that is annoying. And if you autohide it, then you have to move the mouse over to the edge and then stop it in the right area to get it to pop up. This is wasteful. I'd rather just glance up at the menubar and see what apps are open, see which one I'm in, and then using the mouse with one hand, click on another icon to get that app.



    If you have classic OS running, you might want to download taskmenubar and try it for a while. I am almost certain you'll really like it.





    Why someone hasn't made something similar for OS X is a mystery to me.
  • Reply 9 of 21
    It's an abomination of KDE 4 and OS X.
  • Reply 10 of 21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sc_markt View Post


    Marvin, that stinks (to me anyway) because then you have to move the mouse over to the screen edge and then place it in a small designated area to get the dock to pop up. This is such a waste of time and effort IMO. And what if you just want to see which apps you have open? You'd have to move the mouse and aim it to make the dock pop up or apple-tab to bring up the list of open apps. With taskmenubar, you can see which apps are open by just moving your eyes a few inches to the top of the screen. This is the easiest way I have seen yet...



    I have largely the same complaint with the dock. I got around it by moving the dock to the right hand side of my primary screen and having it not hidden. Given the widescreen nature of monitors these days, having the Dock vertical seems like the best use of given screen space. It lets windows stretch to the bottom of the screen while still being wide enough to have 2 windows side by side.
  • Reply 11 of 21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synthetic Frost View Post


    I have largely the same complaint with the dock. I got around it by moving the dock to the right hand side of my primary screen and having it not hidden. Given the widescreen nature of monitors these days, having the Dock vertical seems like the best use of given screen space. It lets windows stretch to the bottom of the screen while still being wide enough to have 2 windows side by side.



    In short, the way the NeXTSTEP UI had it's dock.
  • Reply 12 of 21
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,357moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sc_markt View Post


    With taskmenubar, you can see which apps are open by just moving your eyes a few inches to the top of the screen. This is the easiest way I have seen yet...



    What happens when you have 30 icons in there though? I know a few people who fill their Dock from left to right and partition it into categories. When you open an app like Maya, whose menu options go right to the edge of the icons on the right (it has as many as 17 menu items in row), where do the app icons go?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sc_markt View Post


    Taskmenubar was the easiest way that I have ever used to switch and switch-hide between apps. You only need one hand to do these things.



    With a programmable mouse, you can set a button to command-tab to switch apps. A right-click on a Dock icon only needs one hand too. 'Hide others' is different but again with a multi-button mouse you can do this.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sc_markt View Post


    if its not filled up, there is that empty space at the edges of the dock to the screen that is annoying.



    I agree that if you don't auto-hide, the Dock is a bad idea when positioned on the bottom. I've seen people use the Dock like this and it prevents you resizing windows below it, effectively cutting out the entire portion of the screen. They don't prevent overlap when the Dock is on the left or right but this is because of the the corner resize and inability to push windows above the menu bar. If you want the Dock always on, I would say use the left or right of the screen unless you have a really high vertical resolution.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sc_markt View Post


    If you have classic OS running, you might want to download taskmenubar and try it for a while. I am almost certain you'll really like it.



    I used to use the Control Strip under OS 9 so the Dock for me was really just a better Control Strip. Linux and Windows had the app icons in the taskbars and I always found them more difficult to use because as you minimized apps and and added icons, there was no option but for the taskbar to start hiding icons from you.



    I did miss the old application menu at one point from OS 9 - they've made one for OS X:



    http://ranchero.com/tigerlaunch/



    You can see from the screenshot:



    http://ranchero.com/images/tigerlaun...smenulong5.jpg



    why that wouldn't work fitting all those icons in the menu sideways even without the text. I guess if you didn't have that many apps to put in, it would be ok. There are a number of apps people have come up with to get round the problem but they usually use a hotkey to bring up the interface:



    http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/ma...launchers.html



    Quicksilver tends to be popular though I'm not sure why. I find the Dock faster for launching. I can understand it can be faster for things not in the Dock but it's rarely the case I need to use apps not in the Dock.
  • Reply 13 of 21
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,402member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synthetic Frost View Post


    I have largely the same complaint with the dock. I got around it by moving the dock to the right hand side of my primary screen and having it not hidden. Given the widescreen nature of monitors these days, having the Dock vertical seems like the best use of given screen space. It lets windows stretch to the bottom of the screen while still being wide enough to have 2 windows side by side.



    I've done the save thing except I put my to the left of the screen.
  • Reply 14 of 21
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,402member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    What happens when you have 30 icons in there though? I know a few people who fill their Dock from left to right and partition it into categories. When you open an app like Maya, whose menu options go right to the edge of the icons on the right (it has as many as 17 menu items in row), where do the app icons go?



    You talking about icons of open apps or open and unopend apps?



    It's true that if you open a lot apps, it'll start covering pull down menus of open apps. But I never had more than 7 or 8 apps open at a time so I never had an issue with it running into pull down menus.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post




    With a programmable mouse, you can set a button to command-tab to switch apps. A right-click on a Dock icon only needs one hand too. 'Hide others' is different but again with a multi-button mouse you can do this.



    I wasn't aware of the mouse option. But I know about the options with the dock. But with the dock, it's still a lot of work (compared to taskmenubar) to switch to another app because it requires more area to move over and you have to look among the icons to find the one you want. With taskmenubar, it loaded the icons as you open them so they were all bunched together in a convenient area.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I agree that if you don't auto-hide, the Dock is a bad idea when positioned on the bottom. I've seen people use the Dock like this and it prevents you resizing windows below it, effectively cutting out the entire portion of the screen. They don't prevent overlap when the Dock is on the left or right but this is because of the the corner resize and inability to push windows above the menu bar. If you want the Dock always on, I would say use the left or right of the screen unless you have a really high vertical resolution.



    Thanks for the suggestion. I have had my dock on the left hand side for a while.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post




    I did miss the old application menu at one point from OS 9 - they've made one for OS X:



    http://ranchero.com/tigerlaunch/



    You can see from the screenshot:



    http://ranchero.com/images/tigerlaun...smenulong5.jpg



    Yeah, I miss it to. I might try this one out that you linked to...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    http://ranchero.com/images/tigerlaun...smenulong5.jpg

    why that wouldn't work fitting all those icons in the menu sideways even without the text. I guess if you didn't have that many apps to put in, it would be ok. There are a number of apps people have come up with to get round the problem but they usually use a hotkey to bring up the interface:



    http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/ma...launchers.html



    Quicksilver tends to be popular though I'm not sure why. I find the Dock faster for launching. I can understand it can be faster for things not in the Dock but it's rarely the case I need to use apps not in the Dock.



    Thanks for the suggestions.



    And again, if you have an old mac running a version of classic, you should give taskmenubar a try. I think you'll like it at least for switching between apps. It does more than just switch between apps but if you put too much stuff in it, it'll start covering pull down menus as you have noted.
  • Reply 15 of 21
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,357moderator
    In looking for a way to play around with Ramdisks, I found a link to a site with a system pref pane to make them easily. I was looking for a way to get faster scratch disks in Photoshop. If you have say 4GB Ram, you can make a 2GB scratch in Ram and avoid writing to disk. I didn't notice much performance gain so it's probably not worth it but on the developer's site, I saw something interesting:



    http://www.mparrot.net/index.php?page=downloads&lang=en



    ClawMenu looks pretty close to what you want. It lets you put application icons into your menu bar. It doesn't seem to indicate which ones are active - the active apps are still shown in a menu but it has drop down folder lists and things. If it doesn't do everything you need, maybe contact the developer and see if he will implement the features you want.



    I tried it with 16 items in it - my normal dock has over 30 and it goes on top of the application menu items. The menus are still usable but you can't see the names.



    What you can do though is if you click on an empty part of the menu, hold and drag, the whole block can be dragged anywhere so you can sit it just under the system menu. Just under Spotlight hides the spotlight pane - the other menus go on top.



    You can't seem to drag apps into the menu but you can into the preference window. Then you just choose show the app individually in the menu.
  • Reply 16 of 21
    thttht Posts: 5,499member
    I autohide the dock, plus have applications and utilities stacks. This works pretty well for accessing apps; and, accessing commonly used folders and documents. For the Menubar, if I were Apple, I would remove application menus and only leave system-wide status type things there, like the menu-lings and stuff. A pop-up app quicklink menu or pop-up running apps or pop-up open documents, etc, would be acceptable in my world view.
  • Reply 17 of 21
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    In looking for a way to play around with Ramdisks, I found a link to a site with a system pref pane to make them easily. I was looking for a way to get faster scratch disks in Photoshop. If you have say 4GB Ram, you can make a 2GB scratch in Ram and avoid writing to disk. I didn't notice much performance gain so it's probably not worth it but on the developer's site, I saw something interesting:



    *blink*



    You want to have the scratch disk, which is used to give Photoshop more RAM to play with than is installed in the machine... in RAM.



    Either there's something very wrong with this picture, or I'm missing something about Photoshop's memory allocation system.
  • Reply 18 of 21
    gongon Posts: 2,437member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Quicksilver tends to be popular though I'm not sure why.

    I find the Dock faster for launching. I can understand it can be faster for things not in the Dock but it's rarely the case I need to use apps not in the Dock.



    Quicksilver ships configured a lot like a simple app launcher, but really is a general utility for finding items and acting on them. This gives an overview:

    http://lifehacker.com/software/quick...ver-247129.php



    It's weird, but you can do practically anything through QS, and at the same time it's constantly quicker and more agile than e.g. digging around in Dock. Even before you do any "power using" with features like triggers, abbreviations, etc.



    My Dock has been on auto-hide for years.
  • Reply 19 of 21
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gon View Post


    Quicksilver ships configured a lot like a simple app launcher, but really is a general utility for finding items and acting on them. This gives an overview:

    http://lifehacker.com/software/quick...ver-247129.php



    It's weird, but you can do practically anything through QS, and at the same time it's constantly quicker and more agile than e.g. digging around in Dock. Even before you do any "power using" with features like triggers, abbreviations, etc.



    My Dock has been on auto-hide for years.



    I used Quicksilver all the time back in the days of Panther and Tiger. In fact I would rarely even use a Mac without it. I would swear by it to a lot of people.



    But when Leopard hit QS was suddenly somewhat unstable. Not overly so, but enough for me to question relying on it. So that added to the fact that Spotlight saw some major performance improvements made me slowly stop using it. Eventually I uninstalled it altogether.



    The QS devs have been talking about a complete rewrite now for over a year, but I've yet to see any actual headway on it. If and when they relaunch a Leopard compatible version, I'll start using it again.
  • Reply 20 of 21
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,357moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post


    *blink*



    You want to have the scratch disk, which is used to give Photoshop more RAM to play with than is installed in the machine... in RAM.



    Either there's something very wrong with this picture, or I'm missing something about Photoshop's memory allocation system.



    Photoshop has a limit to its addressable Ram:



    http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...80716133717914



    One of the comments says that Photoshop tries to use the extra Ram but this is buggy in Tiger - VM buffering issue.



    Photoshop uses more addressable Ram than I thought though. I was really just playing around with it to see what improvement if any it made.



    If you have over 4GB Ram and Tiger and are waiting on 64-bit PS to use it, it might be a solution.
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