I am suggesting that as a citizen I want to buy hardware from vendor A and buy software from vendor B. I then go home and install B on A.
It you that wants the government to interfere and prevent me from doing that.
C.
And as a citizen (hell even if you aren't a citizen), neither the government nor Apple will stop you. Cite one case where Apple has stopped an individual from doing just this. They're easy to find. Thousands of individuals already admitted to doing this on the internet.
Psystar is not a citizen. Psystar is a commercial business. Psystar is not afforded the same rights as an individual when it comes to what they are allowed to do with some one else's copyrighted material. Very rarely does "fair use" protects some one that is trying to profit from some one else's copyrighted material.
Copyright laws has been in place for centuries in the US and a lot longer in the UK. It's nothing new. The basic copyright laws that originally protected printed material can be used for digital material. With little modification. Be it music, movies or software.
Never mind the EULA. Psystar is not the end user. Apple is not trying to enforce their EULA with Psystar. Psystar is violating copyright laws. It doesn't matter if Apple is a monopoly or not. This doesn't give Psystar the right to violate copyright laws. MS is a monopoly and I bet you can't violate any of their copyrighted material. Not here in the US nor in the UK.
I am very familiar with how things work there, here and in other parts of the world. In England we have these things called passports.
Intellectual property laws were constructed to guarantee that the creators of an intellectual property were properly compensated for their efforts. Everyone agrees that some degree of IP protection is essential.
So for example when BMW designs a car, no one is allowed to copy that car. When it engineers a GPS, no one can copy the code and sell it as their own. BMW are free to only sell the GPS as part of their own cars. They can do what they like...
....EXCEPT
Intellectual property law does not allow BMW to restrict how consumers can act in the free market. BMW would love to slap a EULA sticker over the car door. "By opening this door you agree to never use a 3rd party GPS. To so would be in violation of Bavarian Law"
They are not allowed to do that. Such a EULA would be illegal and anti-competitive. It is not enforceable.
So even though BMW may bitch and moan about it. You can go out, buy a TomTom and stick it in your Beemer. Your TomTom, Your Beemer. Screw paying $6000 for a GPS. Even though this undermines BMW's business model.
Apple is on thin ice with it's tie-in. Because it's a hair's breadth away from the example above.
If Apple EMBEDDED its OS within the Mac, just as the iPhone OS is embedded, then the two could be legally tied. But they do not. Simply printing a EULA saying you may not install this on a non-Mac may not be enforceable by law.
Get it?
It's still you who's not getting it.
Let say that you're too cheap to buy a $60,000 BMW (or you don't like the body style of a BMW) but you really do like the performance of a BMW engine (with their patented fuel injection technology). So you buy a BMW engine for say, $20,000, modified it and install it into a $20,000 Honda. Now you have a car with the performance of a BMW (and a body style that you like) for $40,000. (Plus you can put in that TomTom you like so much.). Can you do this. Yes. BMW may not like it. Honda may not like it. But there's very little they can do.
But can you turn this into a business for profit.
Psystar is not like you. They are not just buying a copy of OSX and installing it on a computer (with the help of a hack). Which is what you are doing to a computer for your personal use. Psystar is buying thousands of copies of OSX, installing OSX (with the help of a hack) on thousands of PC and then SELLING them.
And the only reason why people are buying this PC is because of the modified copy of OSX that resides in the hard drive of the PC. Psystar is clearly profiting by using a derivative version of OSX to sell their PC's. Without a license or permission from Apple.
It would be like if you liked a certain Beatles song so you recorded yourself singing it. You can make a CD of that recording for your own personal use. But you can't start advertising and selling that CD on My Space. You need to get permission from Apple Records (or EMI, or Sony or Michael Jackson \). You are marketing a modified version of some else's copyrighted work. That some one can't stop you from singing, recording and making a CD of your version of the song. But they can sure stop you from selling a CD with your version on it. You can't sell your version, without permission, not even if you include an original CD of the original artist singing the song.
Are you getting it now.
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HOWEVER....
The legality or lack of legality is not really the point here. OS X has escaped already. And a thousand slick-haired lawyers cannot un-escape it. No one needs Psystar to install OSX, a 5 year old can do it standing on his head whistling the "star spangled banner".
You can tell people that ripping their own CDs is illegal. But it won't stop them.
C.
Apple don't need to stop everyone from installing OSX on a PC. They just need to stop the likes of Dell, HP or Sony from selling a PC with OSX already installed. People has been finding a way to install OSX on a PC way back to when OSX only worked on a PPC chip.
And I would like to see how the computer expert from Psystar going to show the judge how easy it is to install an off the shelf copy of OSX on to their PC (with a blank drive).
Judge: Show me how you can install OSX, brand new out of the box, on to your PC that has a blank hard drive.
Psystar: First you open the box that OSX comes in and remove the OSX install disk. Then you power up the PC and open the CD/DVD drive door. Then you put in this Hack-in-tosh disk.....
Judge: Wait a second. Stop right there. A what disk? Did that disk come in the OSX box you just opened?
Psystar: No your Honor. I pulled it out of my jacket pocket. But you can go to this hackers web site and download it for free.
Judge: Why do you need this disk?
Psystar: Well your Honor, I can not install OSX on to my PC unless I use this disk. But it's so easy to do that even a five year old can do it.
Judge: You can stop right there. I've seen enough.
Psystar: But your Honor, you haven't seen the best part. I can stand on my head and whistle the "Star Spangle Banner" while OSX in loading.
I think they are saying Apple are using monopolistic methods.
ie. restricting consumer freedom which is probably true.
Psystar is not a "consumer".
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You probably can do this... but you got it the wrong way round.
Epson ink is *expensive* so no one wants to buy a 3rd party printer and plug in expensive Epson ink. Turn it around.
People want the excellent Epson printers and then want to use cheap 3rd party ink.
Just like people want the excellent Apple OS and want to plug it into cheap 3rd party hardware.
C.
The question is not whether a printer maker can stop you from using third party ink cartridges. But whether a printer maker can stop a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers. And the answer to the latter is yes. A printer maker can prevent a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers if they hold a patent on that ink cartridge. HP for one holds a patent on many of their ink cartridges. That's because many of their ink cartridges has the print head built in. And HP has a patent on that print head. You can not buy third party ink cartridges for many of HP printers. You can buy third party ink refill kits for their cartridges or re-manufactured (made from recycled use cartridges) ink cartridges from a third party. But not brand new ones.
Of course many printer makers can't get patents on a plastic container with a hole in it. So third parties can make ink cartridges for these printers. And third parties actually get licenses to make ink cartridges for some printers. Usually after a printer has been on the market for a certain amount of time.
This is what Apple is doing. They are not preventing you, the consumer, from buying or using a PC with OSX on it. Apple to stopping Psystar from selling a PC with OSX on it. OSX is Apple's IP and Psystar don't have the right to use OSX or Apple trademark to market their PC's without Apple's permission.
The question is not whether a printer maker can stop you from using third party ink cartridges. But whether a printer maker can stop a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers. And the answer to the latter is yes. A printer maker can prevent a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers if they hold a patent on that ink cartridge. HP for one holds a patent on many of their ink cartridges. That's because many of their ink cartridges has the print head built in. And HP has a patent on that print head. You can not buy third party ink cartridges for many of HP printers. You can buy third party ink refill kits for their cartridges or re-manufactured (made from recycled use cartridges) ink cartridges from a third party. But not brand new ones.
Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to prevent clone cartridges and lost. There are some judges out there who believe this sort of trick is abuse of the intent behind copyright and patent law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW
This is what Apple is doing. They are not preventing you, the consumer, from buying or using a PC with OSX on it. Apple to stopping Psystar from selling a PC with OSX on it. OSX is Apple's IP and Psystar don't have the right to use OSX or Apple trademark to market their PC's without Apple's permission.
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
Moreover, you can tell consumers ripping CDs is illegal, but you'd be lying.
I think, in that respect, it depends on where you live. Carniphage lives in the UK, and unless I'm severely mistaken, IP law in the UK is slightly stricter than in the USA in this respect. The fair or personal use rights in UK copyright law do not include the ability to rip CDs (or do any other kind of media or format transfers), etc.
IIRC, until a very recent amendment, there didn't even exist any legal framework under which movies could be legitimately provided in a digitally downloadable format... Not even if you had the copyright holder's consent.
Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to prevent clone cartridges and lost. There are some judges out there who believe this sort of trick is abuse of the intent behind copyright and patent law.
Not quite right. Lexmark was using a verification chip on their Lexmark toners. Lexmark cited the DMCA in an attempt to stop a third party ink toner company from making toner cartridges with a reversed engineered verification chip for Lexmark laser printers. The courts ruled that Lexmark chip in their toner cartridges was not protected by copyright laws. And therefore was not protected by the DMCA. Plus the third party involved legally reversed engineered the chip in question.
That is completely different from a patent that is issued by the US patent office. There are legitimate reasons why HP build their print heads into their ink cartridges. And none may have anything to do with a way to lock out third party ink makers.
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
C.
But OSX "ready" hardware is already available. The hack sites will tell you exactly what model Dell, HP or Sony can be used to load OSX on (with the help of the hack of course). Including laptops. There are blog sites with people telling other people what readily available PC they successfully loaded OSX on. Where in the name of hell did you think Psystar got the information to built their OSX "ready" PC in the first place? R&D?
Dell actually sell PC's without an OS. But this OS-less PC cost as much or more that the one with Windows on it. Why? Because Dell makes money by installing all those crapware you get on a Dell PC. Dell receives enough money from those crapware companies to pay for the Windows OEM license and then some. Plus Dell would still have to spend the time and labor to load an OS into the PC to make sure everything works before selling it and then do a COMPLETE erase reformatting of the hard drive.
And what happens to this business model in 8 months (which is before the trial date) when OSX Snow Leopard is out. Leopard will no longer be available off the shelf and Snow Leopard off the shelve may go back to having a previous version of OSX on the drive before it installs. If this happens, how in the name of hell will Psystar (or Dell) sell an OSX Snow Leopard ready PC without pre-installing a version of OSX in their PC's?
And don't say that Apple can legally resort to this type of "trickery". My off the shelf upgrade copy of OSX.3 (Panther) and OSX.4 (Tiger) won't install unless I have a previous version of OSX on my drive. As far as I know OSX.5 (Leopard) is the first off the shelf upgrade OSX that don't need a previous version of OSX (or OS9) on the drive before installing. Leopard uses some other method to verify a previous license.
I think, in that respect, it depends on where you live. Carniphage lives in the UK, and unless I'm severely mistaken, IP law in the UK is slightly stricter than in the USA in this respect. The fair or personal use rights in UK copyright law do not include the ability to rip CDs (or do any other kind of media or format transfers), etc.
IIRC, until a very recent amendment, there didn't even exist any legal framework under which movies could be legitimately provided in a digitally downloadable format... Not even if you had the copyright holder's consent.
There was another poster from Australia, I forget who, that stated that he could not legally keep copies of his CD's in his computer. So that he can play his music without having to put the actual CD into the drive. When down under, don't even think of "Rip, Mix and Burn".
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
There is no evidence that Psystar has an EFiX-like chip that allows for a unaltered copy of OS X to be installed. If all they are doing is selling OSx86 compatible HW and NOT installing a hacked and stolen copy of OS X then there is nothing Apple can do.
They state that it can install OS X from the OS X install disc, but that isn't accurate. You first need to order the Psystar restore disc, which does not come with your purchase, which requires to wait until after the less than generous 7 day waiting period before ordering, and then they require you to fax them a a signed letter that separates them from any disputes. It wouldn't be too hard to make an installer disc that would request the OS X disc to complete the install. After all, most of the files in OS X don't need to be altered.
And I would like to see how the computer expert from Psystar going to show the judge how easy it is to install an off the shelf copy of OSX on to their PC (with a blank drive).
Judge: Show me how you can install OSX, brand new out of the box, on to your PC that has a blank hard drive.
Dell and others don't install windows from the disk they drop a image on to the systems but you can do it that way but is not as easy as dropping a image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW
Psystar: First you open the box that OSX comes in and remove the OSX install disk. Then you power up the PC and open the CD/DVD drive door. Then you put in this Hack-in-tosh disk.....
Judge: Wait a second. Stop right there. A what disk? Did that disk come in the OSX box you just opened?
Psystar: No your Honor. I pulled it out of my jacket pocket. But you can go to this hackers web site and download it for free.
Judge: Why do you need this disk?
It's a driver disk like when you install windows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidW
Psystar: Well your Honor, I can not install OSX on to my PC unless I use this disk. But it's so easy to do that even a five year old can do it.
Judge: You can stop right there. I've seen enough.
Psystar: But your Honor, you haven't seen the best part. I can stand on my head and whistle the "Star Spangle Banner" while OSX in loading.
Apple has lock out build in to lock out 3rd party systems. This is like the lexmark case where they had to put a by pass in to get around the lock out chip.
Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to prevent clone cartridges and lost. There are some judges out there who believe this sort of trick is abuse of the intent behind copyright and patent law.
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
C.
Why don't you send a letter to the judge, copying Apple and Pystar, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about? I'm sure that they would be highly impressed by a foreigner that is NOT a member of the bar anywhere in this country.
Apple has lock out build in to lock out 3rd party systems. This is like the lexmark case where they had to put a by pass in to get around the lock out chip.
Not supporting other HW is a not a lockout. They don't use any special HW to prevent OS X from installing. Like all OSes, it determines if the OS can be correctly installed on the HW. Since Apple uses the newer EFI, not BIOS, this means that OS X needs a HW mod to add EFI support or a SW mod to get OS X to install.
Why should Apple be forced to support any and all installations? Why should OS X be the first and only socialized OS in the US? Why shouldn't a company be allowed to determine who can resell and represent its products?
I'm amazed at the number of people here who are against a free market.
Not supporting other HW is a not a lockout. They don't use any special HW to prevent OS X from installing. Like all OSes, it determines if the OS can be correctly installed on the HW. Since Apple uses the newer EFI, not BIOS, this means that OS X needs to a HW mod to add EFI support or a SW mod to get OS X to install.
Why should Apple be forced to support any and all installations? Why should OS X be the first and only socialized OS in the US? Why shouldn't a company be allowed to determine who can resell and represent its products?
I'm amazed at the number of people here who are against a free market.
It's quite simple. They want to be able to do whatever they want to do, whenever they want to do it, without restriction. They THINK it's their right, in spite of laws that prohibit it. It's the anarchist's attitude, but they'd never admit to that.
Dell and others don't install windows from the disk they drop a image on to the systems but you can do it that way but is not as easy as dropping a image.
Dell and others sells OEM Window licenses with their PC's. Psystar is selling an off the shelf OSX upgrade license that they bought individually for each PC. Psystar has to use the off the shelf OSX upgrade disk to install OSX. They do not have a license from Apple to install from an image.
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It's a driver disk like when you install windows.
We're not installing Windows. An off the shelf upgrade OSX install disk don't stop in the middle of the installation to ask you to put in a "driver disk". Once it starts it finishes. This "driver disk" is needed before OSX will even installs. So how does OSX know what "drivers" are needed when it haven't even began loading yet?
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Apple has lock out build in to lock out 3rd party systems. This is like the lexmark case where they had to put a by pass in to get around the lock out chip.
No. An off the shelf copy of OSX is an upgrade license. Which means you must have a previous OSX license before it will install. The upgrade OSX is checking for this previous OSX license. If it finds a previous copy of OSX on the hard drive or verify that it's a Mac, then the previous license requirement is satisfy. All Macs came with an OSX license. This thing that you think is a "lock out" code is nothing more than a way for OSX to verify a previous OSX license. Buy an upgrade version of MS Windows and it too will ask you to verify a previous Windows license before it installs.
Not supporting other HW is a not a lockout. They don't use any special HW to prevent OS X from installing. Like all OSes, it determines if the OS can be correctly installed on the HW. Since Apple uses the newer EFI, not BIOS, this means that OS X needs a HW mod to add EFI support or a SW mod to get OS X to install.
Why should Apple be forced to support any and all installations? Why should OS X be the first and only socialized OS in the US?
Of course Apple shouldn't be forced to support any hardware configurations except for the ones it chooses to build.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
Of course Apple shouldn't be forced to support any hardware configurations except for the ones it chooses to build.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
Perhaps that would be along the lines of the wonderful tech support that PCs are known for.
Of course Apple shouldn't be forced to support any hardware configurations except for the ones it chooses to build.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
What engineering resources like the small ones to remove the locks?
The ones to add other chipsets that are part of the same family from intel / nvidia?
To days chipset have all the basic stuff needed to get a system up and running you don't really need a lot other 3rd party chips as you did in the past.
How hard is it to add in basic SVGA / VESA video?
ATI and nvidia can step up and make the real video drivers they can also make the chipset drivers as well.
What engineering resources like the small ones to remove the locks?
I mean engineering resources like the quality assurance teams who test all of the supported configurations to identify and eliminate any unexpected incompatibilities.
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The ones to add other chipsets that are part of the same family from intel / nvidia?
To days chipset have all the basic stuff needed to get a system up and running you don't really need a lot other 3rd party chips as you did in the past.
How hard is it to add in basic SVGA / VESA video?
Frankly, reading these comments leaves me a little bewildered. I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. I assume (and I apologize if I'm wrong) that you're trying to say that it would take such little effort on Apple's part to engineer support for any arbitrary combination of generic parts, that they may as well just do it, regardless of whether or not they actually anticipate using those combinations in the hardware they sell.
I disagree that it would be as trivial as you seem to suggest, but that's beside the point.
Even if it would be only a very small amount of extra work, why should Apple bother spending even that minuscule amount of time adding things like basic SVGA / VESA video support, if none of their anticipated hardware platforms make use of it?
Even if it would be only a very small amount of extra work, why should Apple bother spending even that minuscule amount of time adding things like basic SVGA / VESA video support, if none of their anticipated hardware platforms make use of it?
Basic SVGA / VESA is needed for fall back so install disk does not need to update for each new video card that ati / nvidia makes so you can just get the driver from them / down load a mac os update that has them.
Also some of the work is just removing PCI ID locks.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
If Psystar where to win then apple should be forced to remove the locks that lock to apple hardware only.
If Psystar where to win then apple should be forced to remove the locks that lock to apple hardware only.
Why?
Sony has a "lock out" code that prevents a region 2 PlayStation game from playing in a region 1 PlayStation console. This "lock out" code also exist for movies and DVD players (including the DVD drive on a computer). The game or movie verifies that it's in the proper machine before it will play. This region code "lock out" has been around since the first PlayStation and since the beginning of movies on DVD's. Sony has successfully won cases against makers of mod chips that attempted to by pass this "lock out" on their PlayStations.
Sony also has a "lock out" code on their PlayStation consoles that detect a copied game. Only an original game disk will work on a PlayStation. Gamers have cited that "fair use" allows them to make back up copies of their games. But these back up copies will not work on their PlayStations. Makers began selling "mod chip" to bypass this "lock out" so that burned back up copies of PlayStation games will work on a PlatStation. Sony sued these "mod chip" makers and won.
Quit citing the Lexmark DMCA case as though it's some kind of landmark case that proves that copyright holders can't use the DMCA as a means to "lock out" unauthorize use of their copyrighted material. Lexmark didn't have a case because they didn't have a legal copyright on the chip, that they were using to verify an original toner, to begin with. And even if they did, reverse engineering is legal in some instances. Sony and Apple have legal copyrights on their IP. They can use the DMCA to enforce this copyright. They can "lock out" their copyrighted material anyway they see fit.
It doesn't matter that OSX will work on a generic PC (with a little tweaking). A Sony region 2 PlayStation game will play perfectly on a region 1 console if it weren't for the region "lock out" code. A burned copy of a PlayStation game will play like the original if it weren't for the built in software that detects a burned copy of a game. A region 2 DVD movie will play just fine on a region 1 DVD player if weren't for the region "lock out" code.
Buy a Dell, HP or Sony PC and you get a disk with an OEM license of Windows. That disk with Windows in it will not install Windows on to any other PC of a different brand. And most likely won't install on to a different PC model of the same brand. You are essentially "locked out" from using your OEM Windows license on any other PC, except the one it came with. (Apple does the samething with the OEM OSX license that comes with a Mac.) You can't legally do anything about it because that's the terms you agreed to when you first started up the computer. That OEM license is non transferable to another computer. Even if you destroy the original computer that came with it. You can not legally sell this license. (Even though you see the disk on eBay.) It's usually stated right on the disk or the case it came in, "Not to be sold separately", "Only to be included with a PC".
A OSX upgrade license that you buy off the shelf is like that OEM license. It's only meant to be used in a certain restricted way. That OSX upgrade license requires you to have a previous OSX license before you can use it. And just like how that OEM license can "lock" you out when you try to load it on a different brand PC. The OSX upgrade license can "lock" you out if it doesn't detect a previous OSX license. (A Windows upgrade disk will also not install until there's proof of a previous license.) That is why it's stated on the box that you must have a Mac to use this upgrade license. Every Mac that it will work on came with a previous OSX license. Apple is not doing anything illegal or anti-competitive because OSX "locks" you out when you try to load it on a generic PC. Did that generic PC have a previous OSX license? I don't think so.
Comments
I am suggesting that as a citizen I want to buy hardware from vendor A and buy software from vendor B. I then go home and install B on A.
It you that wants the government to interfere and prevent me from doing that.
C.
And as a citizen (hell even if you aren't a citizen
Psystar is not a citizen. Psystar is a commercial business. Psystar is not afforded the same rights as an individual when it comes to what they are allowed to do with some one else's copyrighted material. Very rarely does "fair use" protects some one that is trying to profit from some one else's copyrighted material.
Copyright laws has been in place for centuries in the US and a lot longer in the UK. It's nothing new. The basic copyright laws that originally protected printed material can be used for digital material. With little modification. Be it music, movies or software.
Never mind the EULA. Psystar is not the end user. Apple is not trying to enforce their EULA with Psystar. Psystar is violating copyright laws. It doesn't matter if Apple is a monopoly or not. This doesn't give Psystar the right to violate copyright laws. MS is a monopoly and I bet you can't violate any of their copyrighted material. Not here in the US nor in the UK.
I am very familiar with how things work there, here and in other parts of the world. In England we have these things called passports.
Intellectual property laws were constructed to guarantee that the creators of an intellectual property were properly compensated for their efforts. Everyone agrees that some degree of IP protection is essential.
So for example when BMW designs a car, no one is allowed to copy that car. When it engineers a GPS, no one can copy the code and sell it as their own. BMW are free to only sell the GPS as part of their own cars. They can do what they like...
....EXCEPT
Intellectual property law does not allow BMW to restrict how consumers can act in the free market. BMW would love to slap a EULA sticker over the car door. "By opening this door you agree to never use a 3rd party GPS. To so would be in violation of Bavarian Law"
They are not allowed to do that. Such a EULA would be illegal and anti-competitive. It is not enforceable.
So even though BMW may bitch and moan about it. You can go out, buy a TomTom and stick it in your Beemer. Your TomTom, Your Beemer. Screw paying $6000 for a GPS. Even though this undermines BMW's business model.
Apple is on thin ice with it's tie-in. Because it's a hair's breadth away from the example above.
If Apple EMBEDDED its OS within the Mac, just as the iPhone OS is embedded, then the two could be legally tied. But they do not. Simply printing a EULA saying you may not install this on a non-Mac may not be enforceable by law.
Get it?
It's still you who's not getting it.
Let say that you're too cheap to buy a $60,000 BMW (or you don't like the body style of a BMW) but you really do like the performance of a BMW engine (with their patented fuel injection technology). So you buy a BMW engine for say, $20,000, modified it and install it into a $20,000 Honda. Now you have a car with the performance of a BMW (and a body style that you like) for $40,000. (Plus you can put in that TomTom you like so much.
But can you turn this into a business for profit.
Psystar is not like you. They are not just buying a copy of OSX and installing it on a computer (with the help of a hack). Which is what you are doing to a computer for your personal use. Psystar is buying thousands of copies of OSX, installing OSX (with the help of a hack) on thousands of PC and then SELLING them.
And the only reason why people are buying this PC is because of the modified copy of OSX that resides in the hard drive of the PC. Psystar is clearly profiting by using a derivative version of OSX to sell their PC's. Without a license or permission from Apple.
It would be like if you liked a certain Beatles song so you recorded yourself singing it. You can make a CD of that recording for your own personal use. But you can't start advertising and selling that CD on My Space. You need to get permission from Apple Records (or EMI, or Sony or Michael Jackson
Are you getting it now.
HOWEVER....
The legality or lack of legality is not really the point here. OS X has escaped already. And a thousand slick-haired lawyers cannot un-escape it. No one needs Psystar to install OSX, a 5 year old can do it standing on his head whistling the "star spangled banner".
You can tell people that ripping their own CDs is illegal. But it won't stop them.
C.
Apple don't need to stop everyone from installing OSX on a PC. They just need to stop the likes of Dell, HP or Sony from selling a PC with OSX already installed. People has been finding a way to install OSX on a PC way back to when OSX only worked on a PPC chip.
And I would like to see how the computer expert from Psystar going to show the judge how easy it is to install an off the shelf copy of OSX on to their PC (with a blank drive).
Judge: Show me how you can install OSX, brand new out of the box, on to your PC that has a blank hard drive.
Psystar: First you open the box that OSX comes in and remove the OSX install disk. Then you power up the PC and open the CD/DVD drive door. Then you put in this Hack-in-tosh disk.....
Judge: Wait a second. Stop right there. A what disk? Did that disk come in the OSX box you just opened?
Psystar: No your Honor. I pulled it out of my jacket pocket. But you can go to this hackers web site and download it for free.
Judge: Why do you need this disk?
Psystar: Well your Honor, I can not install OSX on to my PC unless I use this disk. But it's so easy to do that even a five year old can do it.
Judge: You can stop right there. I've seen enough.
Psystar: But your Honor, you haven't seen the best part. I can stand on my head and whistle the "Star Spangle Banner" while OSX in loading.
Apple is obviously not a monopoly.
I think they are saying Apple are using monopolistic methods.
ie. restricting consumer freedom which is probably true.
Psystar is not a "consumer".
You probably can do this... but you got it the wrong way round.
Epson ink is *expensive* so no one wants to buy a 3rd party printer and plug in expensive Epson ink. Turn it around.
People want the excellent Epson printers and then want to use cheap 3rd party ink.
Just like people want the excellent Apple OS and want to plug it into cheap 3rd party hardware.
C.
The question is not whether a printer maker can stop you from using third party ink cartridges. But whether a printer maker can stop a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers. And the answer to the latter is yes. A printer maker can prevent a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers if they hold a patent on that ink cartridge. HP for one holds a patent on many of their ink cartridges. That's because many of their ink cartridges has the print head built in. And HP has a patent on that print head. You can not buy third party ink cartridges for many of HP printers. You can buy third party ink refill kits for their cartridges or re-manufactured (made from recycled use cartridges) ink cartridges from a third party. But not brand new ones.
Of course many printer makers can't get patents on a plastic container with a hole in it. So third parties can make ink cartridges for these printers. And third parties actually get licenses to make ink cartridges for some printers. Usually after a printer has been on the market for a certain amount of time.
This is what Apple is doing. They are not preventing you, the consumer, from buying or using a PC with OSX on it. Apple to stopping Psystar from selling a PC with OSX on it. OSX is Apple's IP and Psystar don't have the right to use OSX or Apple trademark to market their PC's without Apple's permission.
The question is not whether a printer maker can stop you from using third party ink cartridges. But whether a printer maker can stop a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers. And the answer to the latter is yes. A printer maker can prevent a third party from making ink cartridges for their printers if they hold a patent on that ink cartridge. HP for one holds a patent on many of their ink cartridges. That's because many of their ink cartridges has the print head built in. And HP has a patent on that print head. You can not buy third party ink cartridges for many of HP printers. You can buy third party ink refill kits for their cartridges or re-manufactured (made from recycled use cartridges) ink cartridges from a third party. But not brand new ones.
Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to prevent clone cartridges and lost. There are some judges out there who believe this sort of trick is abuse of the intent behind copyright and patent law.
This is what Apple is doing. They are not preventing you, the consumer, from buying or using a PC with OSX on it. Apple to stopping Psystar from selling a PC with OSX on it. OSX is Apple's IP and Psystar don't have the right to use OSX or Apple trademark to market their PC's without Apple's permission.
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
C.
Moreover, you can tell consumers ripping CDs is illegal, but you'd be lying.
I think, in that respect, it depends on where you live. Carniphage lives in the UK, and unless I'm severely mistaken, IP law in the UK is slightly stricter than in the USA in this respect. The fair or personal use rights in UK copyright law do not include the ability to rip CDs (or do any other kind of media or format transfers), etc.
IIRC, until a very recent amendment, there didn't even exist any legal framework under which movies could be legitimately provided in a digitally downloadable format... Not even if you had the copyright holder's consent.
Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to prevent clone cartridges and lost. There are some judges out there who believe this sort of trick is abuse of the intent behind copyright and patent law.
Not quite right. Lexmark was using a verification chip on their Lexmark toners. Lexmark cited the DMCA in an attempt to stop a third party ink toner company from making toner cartridges with a reversed engineered verification chip for Lexmark laser printers. The courts ruled that Lexmark chip in their toner cartridges was not protected by copyright laws. And therefore was not protected by the DMCA. Plus the third party involved legally reversed engineered the chip in question.
That is completely different from a patent that is issued by the US patent office. There are legitimate reasons why HP build their print heads into their ink cartridges. And none may have anything to do with a way to lock out third party ink makers.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/56...scription.html
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
C.
But OSX "ready" hardware is already available. The hack sites will tell you exactly what model Dell, HP or Sony can be used to load OSX on (with the help of the hack of course). Including laptops. There are blog sites with people telling other people what readily available PC they successfully loaded OSX on. Where in the name of hell did you think Psystar got the information to built their OSX "ready" PC in the first place? R&D?
Dell actually sell PC's without an OS. But this OS-less PC cost as much or more that the one with Windows on it. Why? Because Dell makes money by installing all those crapware you get on a Dell PC. Dell receives enough money from those crapware companies to pay for the Windows OEM license and then some. Plus Dell would still have to spend the time and labor to load an OS into the PC to make sure everything works before selling it and then do a COMPLETE erase reformatting of the hard drive.
And what happens to this business model in 8 months (which is before the trial date) when OSX Snow Leopard is out. Leopard will no longer be available off the shelf and Snow Leopard off the shelve may go back to having a previous version of OSX on the drive before it installs. If this happens, how in the name of hell will Psystar (or Dell) sell an OSX Snow Leopard ready PC without pre-installing a version of OSX in their PC's?
And don't say that Apple can legally resort to this type of "trickery". My off the shelf upgrade copy of OSX.3 (Panther) and OSX.4 (Tiger) won't install unless I have a previous version of OSX on my drive. As far as I know OSX.5 (Leopard) is the first off the shelf upgrade OSX that don't need a previous version of OSX (or OS9) on the drive before installing. Leopard uses some other method to verify a previous license.
I think, in that respect, it depends on where you live. Carniphage lives in the UK, and unless I'm severely mistaken, IP law in the UK is slightly stricter than in the USA in this respect. The fair or personal use rights in UK copyright law do not include the ability to rip CDs (or do any other kind of media or format transfers), etc.
IIRC, until a very recent amendment, there didn't even exist any legal framework under which movies could be legitimately provided in a digitally downloadable format... Not even if you had the copyright holder's consent.
There was another poster from Australia, I forget who, that stated that he could not legally keep copies of his CD's in his computer. So that he can play his music without having to put the actual CD into the drive. When down under, don't even think of "Rip, Mix and Burn".
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
There is no evidence that Psystar has an EFiX-like chip that allows for a unaltered copy of OS X to be installed. If all they are doing is selling OSx86 compatible HW and NOT installing a hacked and stolen copy of OS X then there is nothing Apple can do.
They state that it can install OS X from the OS X install disc, but that isn't accurate. You first need to order the Psystar restore disc, which does not come with your purchase, which requires to wait until after the less than generous 7 day waiting period before ordering, and then they require you to fax them a a signed letter that separates them from any disputes. It wouldn't be too hard to make an installer disc that would request the OS X disc to complete the install. After all, most of the files in OS X don't need to be altered.
C.
I don't understand the signing of post.
And I would like to see how the computer expert from Psystar going to show the judge how easy it is to install an off the shelf copy of OSX on to their PC (with a blank drive).
Judge: Show me how you can install OSX, brand new out of the box, on to your PC that has a blank hard drive.
Dell and others don't install windows from the disk they drop a image on to the systems but you can do it that way but is not as easy as dropping a image.
Psystar: First you open the box that OSX comes in and remove the OSX install disk. Then you power up the PC and open the CD/DVD drive door. Then you put in this Hack-in-tosh disk.....
Judge: Wait a second. Stop right there. A what disk? Did that disk come in the OSX box you just opened?
Psystar: No your Honor. I pulled it out of my jacket pocket. But you can go to this hackers web site and download it for free.
Judge: Why do you need this disk?
It's a driver disk like when you install windows.
Psystar: Well your Honor, I can not install OSX on to my PC unless I use this disk. But it's so easy to do that even a five year old can do it.
Judge: You can stop right there. I've seen enough.
Psystar: But your Honor, you haven't seen the best part. I can stand on my head and whistle the "Star Spangle Banner" while OSX in loading.
Apple has lock out build in to lock out 3rd party systems. This is like the lexmark case where they had to put a by pass in to get around the lock out chip.
Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to prevent clone cartridges and lost. There are some judges out there who believe this sort of trick is abuse of the intent behind copyright and patent law.
Psystar are re-selling OS X at full price. Apple can't easily stop that.
The most dubious thing that Psystar is doing is pre-installing OS X.
Here's Apples problem, they can get Psystar to stop pre-installing.
But Psystar then just switch to selling OS X-ready hardware. If that is deemed legal - Then Dell start selling the same thing.
C.
Why don't you send a letter to the judge, copying Apple and Pystar, telling them that they don't know what they're talking about? I'm sure that they would be highly impressed by a foreigner that is NOT a member of the bar anywhere in this country.
Apple has lock out build in to lock out 3rd party systems. This is like the lexmark case where they had to put a by pass in to get around the lock out chip.
Not supporting other HW is a not a lockout. They don't use any special HW to prevent OS X from installing. Like all OSes, it determines if the OS can be correctly installed on the HW. Since Apple uses the newer EFI, not BIOS, this means that OS X needs a HW mod to add EFI support or a SW mod to get OS X to install.
Why should Apple be forced to support any and all installations? Why should OS X be the first and only socialized OS in the US? Why shouldn't a company be allowed to determine who can resell and represent its products?
I'm amazed at the number of people here who are against a free market.
Not supporting other HW is a not a lockout. They don't use any special HW to prevent OS X from installing. Like all OSes, it determines if the OS can be correctly installed on the HW. Since Apple uses the newer EFI, not BIOS, this means that OS X needs to a HW mod to add EFI support or a SW mod to get OS X to install.
Why should Apple be forced to support any and all installations? Why should OS X be the first and only socialized OS in the US? Why shouldn't a company be allowed to determine who can resell and represent its products?
I'm amazed at the number of people here who are against a free market.
It's quite simple. They want to be able to do whatever they want to do, whenever they want to do it, without restriction. They THINK it's their right, in spite of laws that prohibit it. It's the anarchist's attitude, but they'd never admit to that.
Dell and others don't install windows from the disk they drop a image on to the systems but you can do it that way but is not as easy as dropping a image.
Dell and others sells OEM Window licenses with their PC's. Psystar is selling an off the shelf OSX upgrade license that they bought individually for each PC. Psystar has to use the off the shelf OSX upgrade disk to install OSX. They do not have a license from Apple to install from an image.
It's a driver disk like when you install windows.
We're not installing Windows. An off the shelf upgrade OSX install disk don't stop in the middle of the installation to ask you to put in a "driver disk". Once it starts it finishes. This "driver disk" is needed before OSX will even installs. So how does OSX know what "drivers" are needed when it haven't even began loading yet?
Apple has lock out build in to lock out 3rd party systems. This is like the lexmark case where they had to put a by pass in to get around the lock out chip.
No. An off the shelf copy of OSX is an upgrade license. Which means you must have a previous OSX license before it will install. The upgrade OSX is checking for this previous OSX license. If it finds a previous copy of OSX on the hard drive or verify that it's a Mac, then the previous license requirement is satisfy. All Macs came with an OSX license. This thing that you think is a "lock out" code is nothing more than a way for OSX to verify a previous OSX license. Buy an upgrade version of MS Windows and it too will ask you to verify a previous Windows license before it installs.
Not supporting other HW is a not a lockout. They don't use any special HW to prevent OS X from installing. Like all OSes, it determines if the OS can be correctly installed on the HW. Since Apple uses the newer EFI, not BIOS, this means that OS X needs a HW mod to add EFI support or a SW mod to get OS X to install.
Why should Apple be forced to support any and all installations? Why should OS X be the first and only socialized OS in the US?
Of course Apple shouldn't be forced to support any hardware configurations except for the ones it chooses to build.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
Of course Apple shouldn't be forced to support any hardware configurations except for the ones it chooses to build.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
Perhaps that would be along the lines of the wonderful tech support that PCs are known for.
Of course Apple shouldn't be forced to support any hardware configurations except for the ones it chooses to build.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
What engineering resources like the small ones to remove the locks?
The ones to add other chipsets that are part of the same family from intel / nvidia?
To days chipset have all the basic stuff needed to get a system up and running you don't really need a lot other 3rd party chips as you did in the past.
How hard is it to add in basic SVGA / VESA video?
ATI and nvidia can step up and make the real video drivers they can also make the chipset drivers as well.
What engineering resources like the small ones to remove the locks?
I mean engineering resources like the quality assurance teams who test all of the supported configurations to identify and eliminate any unexpected incompatibilities.
The ones to add other chipsets that are part of the same family from intel / nvidia?
To days chipset have all the basic stuff needed to get a system up and running you don't really need a lot other 3rd party chips as you did in the past.
How hard is it to add in basic SVGA / VESA video?
Frankly, reading these comments leaves me a little bewildered. I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. I assume (and I apologize if I'm wrong) that you're trying to say that it would take such little effort on Apple's part to engineer support for any arbitrary combination of generic parts, that they may as well just do it, regardless of whether or not they actually anticipate using those combinations in the hardware they sell.
I disagree that it would be as trivial as you seem to suggest, but that's beside the point.
Even if it would be only a very small amount of extra work, why should Apple bother spending even that minuscule amount of time adding things like basic SVGA / VESA video support, if none of their anticipated hardware platforms make use of it?
Even if it would be only a very small amount of extra work, why should Apple bother spending even that minuscule amount of time adding things like basic SVGA / VESA video support, if none of their anticipated hardware platforms make use of it?
Basic SVGA / VESA is needed for fall back so install disk does not need to update for each new video card that ati / nvidia makes so you can just get the driver from them / down load a mac os update that has them.
Also some of the work is just removing PCI ID locks.
On the other hand, even if Psystar were to win the suit, what makes you think that Apple would then be bound to expend any engineering resources supporting the Psystar machines? Psystar built and sold them, thus they'd be the ones compelled to provide technical support for them.
If Psystar where to win then apple should be forced to remove the locks that lock to apple hardware only.
If Psystar where to win then apple should be forced to remove the locks that lock to apple hardware only.
Why?
Sony has a "lock out" code that prevents a region 2 PlayStation game from playing in a region 1 PlayStation console. This "lock out" code also exist for movies and DVD players (including the DVD drive on a computer). The game or movie verifies that it's in the proper machine before it will play. This region code "lock out" has been around since the first PlayStation and since the beginning of movies on DVD's. Sony has successfully won cases against makers of mod chips that attempted to by pass this "lock out" on their PlayStations.
Sony also has a "lock out" code on their PlayStation consoles that detect a copied game. Only an original game disk will work on a PlayStation. Gamers have cited that "fair use" allows them to make back up copies of their games. But these back up copies will not work on their PlayStations. Makers began selling "mod chip" to bypass this "lock out" so that burned back up copies of PlayStation games will work on a PlatStation. Sony sued these "mod chip" makers and won.
Quit citing the Lexmark DMCA case as though it's some kind of landmark case that proves that copyright holders can't use the DMCA as a means to "lock out" unauthorize use of their copyrighted material. Lexmark didn't have a case because they didn't have a legal copyright on the chip, that they were using to verify an original toner, to begin with. And even if they did, reverse engineering is legal in some instances. Sony and Apple have legal copyrights on their IP. They can use the DMCA to enforce this copyright. They can "lock out" their copyrighted material anyway they see fit.
It doesn't matter that OSX will work on a generic PC (with a little tweaking). A Sony region 2 PlayStation game will play perfectly on a region 1 console if it weren't for the region "lock out" code. A burned copy of a PlayStation game will play like the original if it weren't for the built in software that detects a burned copy of a game. A region 2 DVD movie will play just fine on a region 1 DVD player if weren't for the region "lock out" code.
Buy a Dell, HP or Sony PC and you get a disk with an OEM license of Windows. That disk with Windows in it will not install Windows on to any other PC of a different brand. And most likely won't install on to a different PC model of the same brand. You are essentially "locked out" from using your OEM Windows license on any other PC, except the one it came with. (Apple does the samething with the OEM OSX license that comes with a Mac.) You can't legally do anything about it because that's the terms you agreed to when you first started up the computer. That OEM license is non transferable to another computer. Even if you destroy the original computer that came with it. You can not legally sell this license. (Even though you see the disk on eBay.) It's usually stated right on the disk or the case it came in, "Not to be sold separately", "Only to be included with a PC".
A OSX upgrade license that you buy off the shelf is like that OEM license. It's only meant to be used in a certain restricted way. That OSX upgrade license requires you to have a previous OSX license before you can use it. And just like how that OEM license can "lock" you out when you try to load it on a different brand PC. The OSX upgrade license can "lock" you out if it doesn't detect a previous OSX license. (A Windows upgrade disk will also not install until there's proof of a previous license.) That is why it's stated on the box that you must have a Mac to use this upgrade license. Every Mac that it will work on came with a previous OSX license. Apple is not doing anything illegal or anti-competitive because OSX "locks" you out when you try to load it on a generic PC. Did that generic PC have a previous OSX license?