Um, what? I don't get you. I think I had it right the first time. The sites presumed the Xeons would be available first because for recent Q3/Q4 introductions it has been those first. Whether it's retail or or to System Builders has not made any difference to launch dates in the past.
While it itself isn't always accurate; you should trust Wikipedia before you trust other web sites.
Um, I trust Wikipedia only when I know the information is correct, which it often isn't.
Ben remember that there will be 4 different new "northbridges" (what you call X58). Some with one QPI link, some with two QPI links, some with 24 PCIe lanes, some with 36 PCIe lanes. While it is technically possible to build a motherboard ready for dual-cpus (that has dual QPI links, two sockets and two groups of RAM slots - one for each cpu) and use it as a single cpu motherboard, it may be confusing, since not only one socket will not be filled but also the second group of RAM slots will not be usable. Also if you decide to upgrade to a dual cpu configuration, you will need to change the previous processor for one with dual QPI links (more expensive) too. Also the dual QPI links "northbridge" will be probably much more expensive than a single QPI link one (given what we know about the price difference between a Core i7 cpu and a nehalem Xeon at similar clocks: a $700 average premium).
One way or the other, expect prices of Core i7/dual nehalem Xeon Mac Pros to be in the following range:
$1499 single quad 2.66 (Core i7 920) as base model
$1999 single quad 2.93 (Core i7 940) +500
$2499 single quad 3.20 (Core i7 965) +1000
$2799 dual quad 2.53 (2x X5540) as base model
$3499 dual quad 2.66 (2x X5550) +700
$3999 dual quad 2.80 (2x X5560) +1200
$4399 dual quad 2.93 (2x X5570) +1600
$4799 dual quad 3.20 (2x W5580) +2000
In italic, what some people may dream of (included me). In bold, Apple's probable choices. Apple tax included.
Pricing would be slightly different if Apple chooses a different base model.
Since estimations are that dual socket boards won't be too much more expensive than single socket boards, Apple MAY do what they've done before, and offer a single cpu in a dual board, to save on having to make two distinct lines of mobos.
Since Apple doesn't make their machines with the expectation that the user will upgrade the processors, they likely wouldn't care about the extra expense involved for someone to replace both.
As far as the memory goes, while you are correct again, Apple also wouldn't care much about that either, figuring that someone wanting the cheaper, slower machine wouldn't want all that memory anyway.
Interestingly enough, at least one site has found that the increase in bandwidth using three channels wasn't giving that much of a lift to performance, and that even one channel served pretty well. With one chip, the need for three channels of bandwidth is lessened.
Apparently, the 32 GB limit with current machines will be reduced to 24 Gb with three channels, using the 4 GB DIMMS.
And yeah, I do expect the prices to be higher than before.
Since estimations are that dual socket boards won't be too much more expensive than single socket boards, Apple MAY do what they've done before, and offer a single cpu in a dual board, to save on having to make two distinct lines of mobos.
Since Apple doesn't make their machines with the expectation that the user will upgrade the processors, they likely wouldn't care about the extra expense involved for someone to replace both.
As far as the memory goes, while you are correct again, Apple also wouldn't care much about that either, figuring that someone wanting the cheaper, slower machine wouldn't want all that memory anyway.
Interestingly enough, at least one site has found that the increase in bandwidth using three channels wasn't giving that much of a lift to performance, and that even one channel served pretty well. With one chip, the need for three channels of bandwidth is lessened.
Apparently, the 32 GB limit with current machines will be reduced to 24 Gb with three channels, using the 4 GB DIMMS.
And yeah, I do expect the prices to be higher than before.
corei7 is 3 channels per cpu. At the mini you will want 1-2 dimms per cpu.
and you save a lot with a 1 cpu board over a 2 cpu one as you only need 1 ram bank and 1 qpi link vs 2 ram banks and 3 qpi links.
corei7 is 3 channels per cpu. At the mini you will want 1-2 dimms per cpu.
and you save a lot with a 1 cpu board over a 2 cpu one as you only need 1 ram bank and 1 qpi link vs 2 ram banks and 3 qpi links.
From tom's hardware review of a few days ago, which I've seen stated elsewhere as well:
Quote:
QPI brings a fascinating possibility to the table: in order to create a dual-CPU motherboard, a company simply has to solder a second processor socket onto its PCB. Since the processors can communicate with each other directly, this option is independent of the chipset, making it very simple, not to mention inexpensive.
Yes and no. Both the CPU and Northbridge need to have two quickpath links each. At this time, quick path is brand new technology and adding the second link is pretty expensive, but I would venture to say that within a year or two, the distinction between single and dual CPU machines will be gone.
Please show the pros you still care Apple, please, please, please. A beefy update to FCS at NAB would be just swell, too. Super swell. I cannot express the level of swellness that would be felt by many in this industry. Giant amounts of swell.
I'm feeling awfully seasick just thinking about it.
Yes and no. Both the CPU and Northbridge need to have two quickpath links each. At this time, quick path is brand new technology and adding the second link is pretty expensive, but I would venture to say that within a year or two, the distinction between single and dual CPU machines will be gone.
No dual cpu needs more board space. More ram slots / banks. More on board links and power. Higher end chipsets with the links for 2 cpus. More heat to deal with. Even if one 1 cpu on a dual board you still have the other parts that are need to run cpu2 on the board that are not part of the cpu.
After a whole year, Apple haven't got anywhere near competitive with their GPUs on their overpriced Mac Pro kit. They (strangely) don't give the user the choice. But PC users can buy £1000 rigs with better GPUs in than the Mac Pro costing £600+ more. Once PC rig from OVerclockers.co.uk for £1100 has a Radeon 4870x2 with 2 gigs of Ram onboard. That's as much crappy system ram as Apple gives you in the Mac Pro. Eg where's the 9000 series Nvs? Nvs 280 series? Or the Ati 4800 series? Any of these smack the bitch up of the 8800GT, an old card from even older technology that has been out years now.
Disgrace? Insert word of your choice here:
Lemon Bon Bon.
he/she is kidding? I doubt it, you make it sound like you disagree, then you go on to say the same thing. maybe you misread the post which was saying that Apples graphics card options totally stink and are like 2 year old technology when they are "new."
No dual cpu needs more board space. More ram slots / banks. More on board links and power. Higher end chipsets with the links for 2 cpus. More heat to deal with. Even if one 1 cpu on a dual board you still have the other parts that are need to run cpu2 on the board that are not part of the cpu.
The whole point to Quickpath is that they DON"T need all of what was needed before. You also don't need three channels of memory, and most of the new chips will only be capable of addressing two anyway.
I tend to trust the various tech sites that have been testing the new chips and boards, and who do this for a living. When they say it won't cost much more, I would tend to trust what they say.
The whole point to Quickpath is that they DON"T need all of what was needed before. You also don't need three channels of memory, and most of the new chips will only be capable of addressing two anyway.
I tend to trust the various tech sites that have been testing the new chips and boards, and who do this for a living. When they say it won't cost much more, I would tend to trust what they say.
Holy crap. Let's not make this complicated. Quickpath is Intel's response to Hypertransport, no more no less.
The whole point to Quickpath is that they DON"T need all of what was needed before. You also don't need three channels of memory, and most of the new chips will only be capable of addressing two anyway.
I tend to trust the various tech sites that have been testing the new chips and boards, and who do this for a living. When they say it won't cost much more, I would tend to trust what they say.
each cpu has 3 ram links on it vs ram link at the chip set.
so the mini should be 2 per cpu.
Be for they had each cpu had it's own link to the chip set. QPI adds cpu to cpu links + ram that is linked to cpu with out needing to use the chipset for cpu to cpu and cpu to ram traffic. Amd got a big boost by useing this.
Also this will let you have more chip set choice on 2 + cpus boards.
Nvidia had there own chipsets on 2 way + amd boards.
No dual cpu needs more board space. More ram slots / banks. More on board links and power. Higher end chipsets with the links for 2 cpus. More heat to deal with. Even if one 1 cpu on a dual board you still have the other parts that are need to run cpu2 on the board that are not part of the cpu.
I'm not saying it won't need more board space for the second socket and DIMM slots, I'm saying that eventually adding that second quick path link is going to be cheap enough where they won't have to make separate versions with one or two quickpath links. If both the chip and northbridge already have twin quickpath links, a dual socket motherboard would be much closer in price to a single socket motherboard than it is now. The only real difference between bloomfield and gainestown with the single and dual socket version of tylersburg is a second quickpath link.
I'm not saying it won't need more board space for the second socket and DIMM slots, I'm saying that eventually adding that second quick path link is going to be cheap enough where they won't have to make separate versions with one or two quickpath links. If both the chip and northbridge already have twin quickpath links, a dual socket motherboard would be much closer in price to a single socket motherboard than it is now. The only real difference between bloomfield and gainestown with the single and dual socket version of tylersburg is a second quickpath link.
Wouldn't they just fab them with the extra links and just not connect all the pins to the outside world to make the "lesser" product version? I would expect that the price difference would still remain whether or not this is true. As far as I understand, this is a common practice for electronics.
Wouldn't they just fab them with the extra links and just not connect all the pins to the outside world to make the "lesser" product version? I would expect that the price difference would still remain whether or not this is true. As far as I understand, this is a common practice for electronics.
Yes. All the diagrams I've seen of i7 processors- the single-socket desktop CPU- show a second disabled QPI link. The silicon is the same.
Wouldn't they just fab them with the extra links and just not connect all the pins to the outside world to make the "lesser" product version? I would expect that the price difference would still remain whether or not this is true. As far as I understand, this is a common practice for electronics.
They can certainly do that. The difference in the cost of the board itself would be negligible.
Comments
Um, what? I don't get you. I think I had it right the first time. The sites presumed the Xeons would be available first because for recent Q3/Q4 introductions it has been those first. Whether it's retail or or to System Builders has not made any difference to launch dates in the past.
While it itself isn't always accurate; you should trust Wikipedia before you trust other web sites.
Um, I trust Wikipedia only when I know the information is correct, which it often isn't.
Ben remember that there will be 4 different new "northbridges" (what you call X58). Some with one QPI link, some with two QPI links, some with 24 PCIe lanes, some with 36 PCIe lanes. While it is technically possible to build a motherboard ready for dual-cpus (that has dual QPI links, two sockets and two groups of RAM slots - one for each cpu) and use it as a single cpu motherboard, it may be confusing, since not only one socket will not be filled but also the second group of RAM slots will not be usable. Also if you decide to upgrade to a dual cpu configuration, you will need to change the previous processor for one with dual QPI links (more expensive) too. Also the dual QPI links "northbridge" will be probably much more expensive than a single QPI link one (given what we know about the price difference between a Core i7 cpu and a nehalem Xeon at similar clocks: a $700 average premium).
One way or the other, expect prices of Core i7/dual nehalem Xeon Mac Pros to be in the following range:
$1499 single quad 2.66 (Core i7 920) as base model
$1999 single quad 2.93 (Core i7 940) +500
$2499 single quad 3.20 (Core i7 965) +1000
$2799 dual quad 2.53 (2x X5540) as base model
$3499 dual quad 2.66 (2x X5550) +700
$3999 dual quad 2.80 (2x X5560) +1200
$4399 dual quad 2.93 (2x X5570) +1600
$4799 dual quad 3.20 (2x W5580) +2000
In italic, what some people may dream of (included me). In bold, Apple's probable choices. Apple tax included.
Pricing would be slightly different if Apple chooses a different base model.
Since estimations are that dual socket boards won't be too much more expensive than single socket boards, Apple MAY do what they've done before, and offer a single cpu in a dual board, to save on having to make two distinct lines of mobos.
Since Apple doesn't make their machines with the expectation that the user will upgrade the processors, they likely wouldn't care about the extra expense involved for someone to replace both.
As far as the memory goes, while you are correct again, Apple also wouldn't care much about that either, figuring that someone wanting the cheaper, slower machine wouldn't want all that memory anyway.
Interestingly enough, at least one site has found that the increase in bandwidth using three channels wasn't giving that much of a lift to performance, and that even one channel served pretty well. With one chip, the need for three channels of bandwidth is lessened.
Apparently, the 32 GB limit with current machines will be reduced to 24 Gb with three channels, using the 4 GB DIMMS.
And yeah, I do expect the prices to be higher than before.
Since estimations are that dual socket boards won't be too much more expensive than single socket boards, Apple MAY do what they've done before, and offer a single cpu in a dual board, to save on having to make two distinct lines of mobos.
Since Apple doesn't make their machines with the expectation that the user will upgrade the processors, they likely wouldn't care about the extra expense involved for someone to replace both.
As far as the memory goes, while you are correct again, Apple also wouldn't care much about that either, figuring that someone wanting the cheaper, slower machine wouldn't want all that memory anyway.
Interestingly enough, at least one site has found that the increase in bandwidth using three channels wasn't giving that much of a lift to performance, and that even one channel served pretty well. With one chip, the need for three channels of bandwidth is lessened.
Apparently, the 32 GB limit with current machines will be reduced to 24 Gb with three channels, using the 4 GB DIMMS.
And yeah, I do expect the prices to be higher than before.
corei7 is 3 channels per cpu. At the mini you will want 1-2 dimms per cpu.
and you save a lot with a 1 cpu board over a 2 cpu one as you only need 1 ram bank and 1 qpi link vs 2 ram banks and 3 qpi links.
corei7 is 3 channels per cpu. At the mini you will want 1-2 dimms per cpu.
and you save a lot with a 1 cpu board over a 2 cpu one as you only need 1 ram bank and 1 qpi link vs 2 ram banks and 3 qpi links.
From tom's hardware review of a few days ago, which I've seen stated elsewhere as well:
QPI brings a fascinating possibility to the table: in order to create a dual-CPU motherboard, a company simply has to solder a second processor socket onto its PCB. Since the processors can communicate with each other directly, this option is independent of the chipset, making it very simple, not to mention inexpensive.
Link to (long) article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...alem,2057.html
While it itself isn't always accurate; you should trust Wikipedia before you trust other web sites.
This is the opposite of what anyone should do. That is, trust Wikipedia.
Apple won't release a Mac Pro until after this occurs and after they have secured pricing drops to meet this new competition from AMD.
Be thankful AMD is coming back. It will force Intel to lower their price points if they want to continue their dominance in total revenue sales.
From tom's hardware review of a few days ago, which I've seen stated elsewhere as well:
Link to (long) article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...alem,2057.html
but you still need 2 link cpus vs 1 link cpus.
From tom's hardware review of a few days ago, which I've seen stated elsewhere as well:
Link to (long) article:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...alem,2057.html
Yes and no. Both the CPU and Northbridge need to have two quickpath links each. At this time, quick path is brand new technology and adding the second link is pretty expensive, but I would venture to say that within a year or two, the distinction between single and dual CPU machines will be gone.
Please show the pros you still care Apple, please, please, please. A beefy update to FCS at NAB would be just swell, too. Super swell. I cannot express the level of swellness that would be felt by many in this industry. Giant amounts of swell.
I'm feeling awfully seasick just thinking about it.
Yes and no. Both the CPU and Northbridge need to have two quickpath links each. At this time, quick path is brand new technology and adding the second link is pretty expensive, but I would venture to say that within a year or two, the distinction between single and dual CPU machines will be gone.
No dual cpu needs more board space. More ram slots / banks. More on board links and power. Higher end chipsets with the links for 2 cpus. More heat to deal with. Even if one 1 cpu on a dual board you still have the other parts that are need to run cpu2 on the board that are not part of the cpu.
Hahahahahahahahahah. You're kidding right?
See my tag-line.
After a whole year, Apple haven't got anywhere near competitive with their GPUs on their overpriced Mac Pro kit. They (strangely) don't give the user the choice. But PC users can buy £1000 rigs with better GPUs in than the Mac Pro costing £600+ more. Once PC rig from OVerclockers.co.uk for £1100 has a Radeon 4870x2 with 2 gigs of Ram onboard. That's as much crappy system ram as Apple gives you in the Mac Pro. Eg where's the 9000 series Nvs? Nvs 280 series? Or the Ati 4800 series? Any of these smack the bitch up of the 8800GT, an old card from even older technology that has been out years now.
Disgrace? Insert word of your choice here:
Lemon Bon Bon.
he/she is kidding? I doubt it, you make it sound like you disagree, then you go on to say the same thing. maybe you misread the post which was saying that Apples graphics card options totally stink and are like 2 year old technology when they are "new."
No dual cpu needs more board space. More ram slots / banks. More on board links and power. Higher end chipsets with the links for 2 cpus. More heat to deal with. Even if one 1 cpu on a dual board you still have the other parts that are need to run cpu2 on the board that are not part of the cpu.
The whole point to Quickpath is that they DON"T need all of what was needed before. You also don't need three channels of memory, and most of the new chips will only be capable of addressing two anyway.
I tend to trust the various tech sites that have been testing the new chips and boards, and who do this for a living. When they say it won't cost much more, I would tend to trust what they say.
The whole point to Quickpath is that they DON"T need all of what was needed before. You also don't need three channels of memory, and most of the new chips will only be capable of addressing two anyway.
I tend to trust the various tech sites that have been testing the new chips and boards, and who do this for a living. When they say it won't cost much more, I would tend to trust what they say.
Holy crap. Let's not make this complicated. Quickpath is Intel's response to Hypertransport, no more no less.
Done.
The whole point to Quickpath is that they DON"T need all of what was needed before. You also don't need three channels of memory, and most of the new chips will only be capable of addressing two anyway.
I tend to trust the various tech sites that have been testing the new chips and boards, and who do this for a living. When they say it won't cost much more, I would tend to trust what they say.
each cpu has 3 ram links on it vs ram link at the chip set.
so the mini should be 2 per cpu.
Be for they had each cpu had it's own link to the chip set. QPI adds cpu to cpu links + ram that is linked to cpu with out needing to use the chipset for cpu to cpu and cpu to ram traffic. Amd got a big boost by useing this.
Also this will let you have more chip set choice on 2 + cpus boards.
Nvidia had there own chipsets on 2 way + amd boards.
No dual cpu needs more board space. More ram slots / banks. More on board links and power. Higher end chipsets with the links for 2 cpus. More heat to deal with. Even if one 1 cpu on a dual board you still have the other parts that are need to run cpu2 on the board that are not part of the cpu.
I'm not saying it won't need more board space for the second socket and DIMM slots, I'm saying that eventually adding that second quick path link is going to be cheap enough where they won't have to make separate versions with one or two quickpath links. If both the chip and northbridge already have twin quickpath links, a dual socket motherboard would be much closer in price to a single socket motherboard than it is now. The only real difference between bloomfield and gainestown with the single and dual socket version of tylersburg is a second quickpath link.
I'm not saying it won't need more board space for the second socket and DIMM slots, I'm saying that eventually adding that second quick path link is going to be cheap enough where they won't have to make separate versions with one or two quickpath links. If both the chip and northbridge already have twin quickpath links, a dual socket motherboard would be much closer in price to a single socket motherboard than it is now. The only real difference between bloomfield and gainestown with the single and dual socket version of tylersburg is a second quickpath link.
Wouldn't they just fab them with the extra links and just not connect all the pins to the outside world to make the "lesser" product version? I would expect that the price difference would still remain whether or not this is true. As far as I understand, this is a common practice for electronics.
Wouldn't they just fab them with the extra links and just not connect all the pins to the outside world to make the "lesser" product version? I would expect that the price difference would still remain whether or not this is true. As far as I understand, this is a common practice for electronics.
Yes. All the diagrams I've seen of i7 processors- the single-socket desktop CPU- show a second disabled QPI link. The silicon is the same.
Holy crap. Let's not make this complicated. Quickpath is Intel's response to Hypertransport, no more no less.
Done.
Actually, QPI is thought of as being better than HT.
Wouldn't they just fab them with the extra links and just not connect all the pins to the outside world to make the "lesser" product version? I would expect that the price difference would still remain whether or not this is true. As far as I understand, this is a common practice for electronics.
They can certainly do that. The difference in the cost of the board itself would be negligible.
Apples graphics card options totally stink and are like 2 year old technology
I agree.
Lemon Bon Bon.