Core i7
CRAVE
November 17, 2008 9:07 AM PST
Core i7 PCs on sale from Dell, Gateway, others
We reviewed Intel's new Core i7 CPU already, as well as two desktops with the chip inside, but today is the first day you can actually make a Core i7 purchase. Dell has the best starting bid, with a deal on its Studio XPS with a Core i7 920 chip and a 20-inch LCD for $999. Gateway's FX 6800-01e is also impressive, coming in at $1,249 for a Core i7 920 in a PC that can accommodate two 3D cards. Look for the Gateway review this evening, with a review of a more expensive version of the Dell up shortly after.
How do you think Apple will respond to the Core i7? New Mac Pro's? iMacs? Minis?
November 17, 2008 9:07 AM PST
Core i7 PCs on sale from Dell, Gateway, others
We reviewed Intel's new Core i7 CPU already, as well as two desktops with the chip inside, but today is the first day you can actually make a Core i7 purchase. Dell has the best starting bid, with a deal on its Studio XPS with a Core i7 920 chip and a 20-inch LCD for $999. Gateway's FX 6800-01e is also impressive, coming in at $1,249 for a Core i7 920 in a PC that can accommodate two 3D cards. Look for the Gateway review this evening, with a review of a more expensive version of the Dell up shortly after.
How do you think Apple will respond to the Core i7? New Mac Pro's? iMacs? Minis?
Comments
CRAVE
November 17, 2008 9:07 AM PST
Core i7 PCs on sale from Dell, Gateway, others
We reviewed Intel's new Core i7 CPU already, as well as two desktops with the chip inside, but today is the first day you can actually make a Core i7 purchase. Dell has the best starting bid, with a deal on its Studio XPS with a Core i7 920 chip and a 20-inch LCD for $999. Gateway's FX 6800-01e is also impressive, coming in at $1,249 for a Core i7 920 in a PC that can accommodate two 3D cards. Look for the Gateway review this evening, with a review of a more expensive version of the Dell up shortly after.
How do you think Apple will respond to the Core i7? New Mac Pro's? iMacs? Minis?
right now the low cpu goes for about $300 with x58 boards at the same price as well. Apple does not need the full x58 chipset so a lower end board with less i/o may come in at $150 to $250.
2 cpu core i7 boards and cpus are due next year that the mac pro will likely use.
right now the low cpu goes for about $300 with x58 boards at the same price as well. Apple does not need the full x58 chipset so a lower end board with less i/o may come in at $150 to $250.
2 cpu core i7 boards and cpus are due next year that the mac pro will likely use.
Apple doesn't buy off-the shelf boards, so expect that board to still be $300 and up, with the Xeon version of Nehalem adding an additional $1000k.
Apple won't deploy i7 to the iMac before it deploys the Xeon i7 for the Mac Pro. By the time the iMac moves to the LGA1366 motherboard chipset it will be October 2009. Mac mini will still use Core2Duo's until after iMac upgrades to that chipset.
In Q1 there will be a dual-socket Xeon-branded version of the i7 that Apple will presumably put in the Mac Pro. But I doubt Apple will ever use the desktop i7. They don't "respond" to other computer manufacturers.
They don't "respond" to other computer manufacturers.
Sorry. Poor choice of words.
Apple won't deploy i7 to the iMac before it deploys the Xeon i7 for the Mac Pro. By the time the iMac moves to the LGA1366 motherboard chipset it will be October 2009. Mac mini will still use Core2Duo's until after iMac upgrades to that chipset.
Yeah it looks that's most likely what will happen. As usual, there will be two main comparisons, one on price, the other on performance.
The Mac Pro will rival and probably beat the Core i7 desktops but it's twice the price. The consumer line will match the price but be half as fast. And so we get back to the age old problem where the performance/price ratio is half that of an equivalent PC.
What'll be interesting to see how the Core i7 desktop Dells make the current Xeon Mac Pros look performance-wise. That could be embarrassing for the next 2-3 months. This Dell is under $1000 with a display and is the same speed as a $2,500 Mac without a display. Ouch.
Yeah it looks that's most likely what will happen. As usual, there will be two main comparisons, one on price, the other on performance.
The Mac Pro will rival and probably beat the Core i7 desktops but it's twice the price. The consumer line will match the price but be half as fast. And so we get back to the age old problem where the performance/price ratio is half that of an equivalent PC.
What'll be interesting to see how the Core i7 desktop Dells make the current Xeon Mac Pros look performance-wise. That could be embarrassing for the next 2-3 months. This Dell is under $1000 with a display and is the same speed as a $2,500 Mac without a display. Ouch.
And the Dell will support 24GB of RAM as well.
Two of these will put you back > $2k and thus the Mac Pro either has to go extremely high priced or create a 3 tier Core i7 offering which cuts into Mac Pro margins, or Intel plans on giving Apple some special discount.
I see Apple delaying this until the Core i7 965 Extreme drops below $750 per CPU to justify a new Mac Pro release.
What'll be interesting to see how the Core i7 desktop Dells make the current Xeon Mac Pros look performance-wise. That could be embarrassing for the next 2-3 months. This Dell is under $1000 with a display and is the same speed as a $2,500 Mac without a display. Ouch.
A $1000 computer with the i7 920 processor won't match the current $2500 Mac Pro (the 8-core 2.8GHz model), but a ~$1700 machine with the i7 965 probably will.
While we're on the subject of processors, Intel is still making new Core 2 CPUs. Their newest roadmap has three "small form factor" Core 2 Quads set for a January release. 2.33GHz, 2.66GHz, 2.83GHz on a 1333MHz FSB. Desktop processors, but with a lower thermal envelope (65W). Low enough that Apple *could* probably fit them into the iMac. Of course, that would require the hardware engineers to work.
Link
For one thing, the Extreme version will be exclusively reserved for the Mac Pro, that is the Core i7 965 Extreme.
Two of these will put you back > $2k and thus the Mac Pro either has to go extremely high priced or create a 3 tier Core i7 offering which cuts into Mac Pro margins, or Intel plans on giving Apple some special discount.
I see Apple delaying this until the Core i7 965 Extreme drops below $750 per CPU to justify a new Mac Pro release.
The i7 won't work in a dual-socket machine. The Xeon version of it, which will, is going to cost a lot more. $1600 per processor for the high end. That's the price if you're buying a thousand of them, who knows what Apple would pay.
A $1000 computer with the i7 920 processor won't match the current $2500 Mac Pro (the 8-core 2.8GHz model), but a ~$1700 machine with the i7 965 probably will.
http://www.barefeats.com/harper.html
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/200...-965-review/10
That seems to be the case, the quad 3.2ghz Core i7 965 matches the 8-core 2.8 Xeon. The 920 falls a bit short.
Judging buy a price comparison, it blows the iMac away completely. The processor in it isn't even on the chart but it seems like it will be about 1/3rd of the speed.
The Mac Pro will hold up but when the i7 update comes, the gap widens considerably to jump from a Core 2 Duo iMac up to a Core i7 even if it's just a quad on the low end Mac Pro.
While we're on the subject of processors, Intel is still making new Core 2 CPUs. Their newest roadmap has three "small form factor" Core 2 Quads set for a January release. 2.33GHz, 2.66GHz, 2.83GHz on a 1333MHz FSB. Desktop processors, but with a lower thermal envelope (65W). Low enough that Apple *could* probably fit them into the iMac. Of course, that would require the hardware engineers to work.
A common mistake here is to compare the W per processor only. The other big difference between desktop and mobile chips is the max. temperature. As far as I remember, it is in the range of 65-70 C for desktop chips and about 95 - 100 C for mobile. The thermal dissipation at 95 C is very different, e.g. heat-sink and, body and convection are much more efficient when working in room temperature.
A common mistake here is to compare the W per processor only. The other big difference between desktop and mobile chips is the max. temperature. As far as I remember, it is in the range of 65-70 C for desktop chips and about 95 - 100 C for mobile. The thermal dissipation at 95 C is very different, e.g. heat-sink and, body and convection are much more efficient when working in room temperature.
What you're thinking of is called the TJunction Max temperature. That's the temperature at which the processor shuts down to save itself. For Intel's current 95W Core 2 Quads that temperature is 100C. Throttling occurs about 5C below that.
A $1000 computer with the i7 920 processor won't match the current $2500 Mac Pro (the 8-core 2.8GHz model), but a ~$1700 machine with the i7 965 probably will.
With the exception of gaming, the 920 beat the Core 2 Q9550, the desktop brother to Mac Pro's Xeon E5440, pretty handily.
What'll be interesting to see how the Core i7 desktop Dells make the current Xeon Mac Pros look performance-wise. That could be embarrassing for the next 2-3 months. This Dell is under $1000 with a display and is the same speed as a $2,500 Mac without a display. Ouch.
It just highlights the rigid nature of Apple's desktop line. Expect Apple to counter with the usual delirious slowness. It's about time Apple became more flexible with it's desktop strategy. Especially with GPUs. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to enjoy a greater choice. It's pathetic.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Why do we have to wait until late 09 to get a mainstream desktop Mac with an i7 desktop chip in it?
Waiting for the Xeon i7 could be upto 4 months later than the Dell.
Why force the consumer to pay a huge premium for the laptop equivalents of much cheaper desktop parts which will be available a WHOLE YEAR ahead of the laptop equivalents..?
Never has a Mid-tower/Cube been more necessary in Apple's line up. I like the iMac and Mac Pro. Recognise the necessity and market of both. But the gaping casm inbetween is freaking annoying and frustrating.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Because Apple thinks it can make the decision as to what computer serves us best. And since they're always right, nobody but a PC whiner could possibly be unhappy
Lemon Bon Bon.
When did we get to the point where Think Different was replaced by conform always?
Hey. I don't want a morass of Performa models. But we do have 2 non-GPU upgradeable desktops. Hey. I'd even include the Mac Pro in that category.
*Twitch. I'd just like an alu-box that I can configure to include one current GPU and an i7 2.66. Then I get to smile a sane smile.
Lemon Bon Bon.
We might see xeon 5500 machines (dual CPU variant of the i7) sometime during Q2 or Q3 of 2009. I don't expect a Core i7 Mac. A sub-2000 desktop is a threat to Apple's distinction between the iMac and the Mac Pro. Core i7 iMacs based on the Clarksfield mobile quad core should be out either next fall or MWSF 2010.
Ben, you are probably right about the threat to the distinction, and probably a little too pessimistic about the release dates: a dual-xeon Mac Pro will probably be released in Q1 (maybe late Q1) and I expect the iMac to receive nehalem during the fall (if the platform doesn't change). MWSF 2010 will probably be the notebook event (after a refresh late Q2 2009).
But with, what I believe to be, small changes in the choices of platforms from Apple, I think it would be probably easy to reposition the iMac line in order to make room for a Core i7 Mac line.
- move the iMac to desktop cpus/chipsets (dual/quad core at 65W max.), desktop cpus are way less expensive than mobile ones and the iMac is probably capable of handling those new 65W quad-core cpus (the current iMac uses overclocked mobile ones that have a TDP of 55W already and are probably pushed hard). The upcoming 65W quad-core cpus will be priced between $245 and $369. The mobile cpus used on the current iMac are priced between $241 (2.40GHz) and $851 (3.06GHz), that's almost $500 less for the high-end model:
$1199 20" iMac dual-core 2.66GHz (E8200 $163), 2GB RAM, HDD, ODD, low-end GPU
$1399 20" iMac quad-core 2.33GHz (Q8200s $245), 2GB RAM, HDD, ODD, midrange GPU
$1699 24" iMac quad-core 2.66GHz (Q9400s $320), 2GB RAM, HDD, ODD, midrange GPU
$1899 24" iMac quad-core 2.83GHz (Q9550s $369), 2GB RAM, HDD, ODD, high-end GPU
I didn't apply the full price cut on the cpus, because I believe the iMac will receive more expensive LED-BL displays too.
- release a Core i7 Mac, with an enclosure similar to the Mac Pro (or a new/smaller one if they want to):
$1499 quad-core 2.66GHz (Core i7 920 $284), 3GB RAM, HDD, ODD, basic GPU (BTO options)
$1999 quad-core 2.93GHz (Core i7 940 $562), 3GB RAM, HDD, ODD, basic GPU (BTO options)
$2499 quad-core 3.20GHz (Core i7 965 $999), 3GB RAM, HDD, ODD, basic GPU (BTO options)
- then the new Mac Pro with only dual-cpu configurations:
$2999 dual quad 2.53GHz (2x Xeon E5540 $744 each), 6GB RAM, HDD, ODD, basic GPU (BTO options)
$3999 dual quad 2.80GHz (2x Xeon X5560 $1,172 each), 6GB RAM, HDD, ODD, basic GPU (BTO options)
$4999 dual quad 3.20GHz (2x Xeon W5580 $1,600 each), 6GB RAM, HDD, ODD, basic GPU (BTO options)
With this line-up the only in-between is the 2.66GHz Core i7 model, but for just $200 more you can get a "similar" 24" iMac. Also I would believe than even if the new iMacs are priced slightly lower than the current ones, they would generate more margins. They would be even more attractive because of the price cut and quad-core cpus. And priced like that the Core i7 Macs would be margins machines (equivalents from Dell and others are selling for $999/1499/1999).
And if you add the new Mac mini, that could come with the following specs:
$699 Mac mini 2.00GHz, nvidia 9400m, 2GB RAM, 160GB HDD, Superdrive
$899 Mac mini 2.40GHz, nvidia 9400m, 2GB RAM, 250GB HDD, Superdrive
I jacked the prices a little so that specs match those of the new MB and in hopes that FW will remain!!!
You'll have a complete desktop line-up for 2009. Everything covered. And Apple could still have only 3 desktop designs:
- Mac mini: SSF, dual-core, integrated graphics, $699-899
- iMac: AIO, 2 models, 20" and 24", dual and quad-cores, starting at $1199 and 1699
- Mac Pro: Tower, 2 models, single and dual quad-core (8 threads) cpus, starting at $1499 or $1999 and $2999