Are netbooks shrinking Apple's slice of the portable market?

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  • Reply 81 of 186
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,451member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Buck View Post


    I wonder if AI is subtly preparing us for a major netbook launch?

    I mean, two news bits about netbooks in a week...



    You may be on to something. My bet is when SJ does enter this market Apple's offering will be as radically different from PC note books or pads as the iPhone was from the then so called smart phones. It will be dare I say it ... a paradigm shift.
  • Reply 82 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The title of this thread is set up for us to debate in this thread.



    Macs don't compete directly with any particular model of PC in that way. A consumer would first need to decide if they want a Mac or a PC. Then they decide which specific model of Mac or PC they want.



    People buying netbooks have already decided they want a Windows notebook. The next choice is which Windows notebook.



    Clearly, I cannot speak for others, but for my most recent personal computer purchases, the OS that happened to be installed on the computer have seemed like almost an afterthought, rather than being the one of the first things I needed to decide. The software I use on a regular basis is equally available on most platforms.



    If I don't like the stock OS, I know that I can always modify it, or outright replace it with something that better suits my tastes.
  • Reply 83 of 186
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,451member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


    Clearly, I cannot speak for others, but for my most recent personal computer purchases, the OS that happened to be installed on the computer have seemed like almost an afterthought, rather than being the one of the first things I needed to decide. The software I use on a regular basis is equally available on most platforms.



    If I don't like the stock OS, I know that I can always modify it, or outright replace it with something that better suits my tastes.



    A good reason to go Mac given it can run Mac, Windows and various Unix flavors. Nothing else can (easily and legally).
  • Reply 84 of 186
    Agreed. Just out holiday 'discount' shopping. Was surprised to see a display at Target with two tiny Asus netbooks for sale in $300 range. These will be big sellers, and more so if/when the 'free wi-fi' agenda (touted by the FCC) is in-place. So much easier to use than trying to email (an actual multi-lined email) from a cell-phone (even an iPhone).







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    You are forgetting netbooks are selling only for a year. While they sell extremely well, number of already owned notebooks is huge. Give netbooks another year of current sales and you'll see change easily.



    Now consider this: most manufacturers still make and sell entry-level Celeron based notebooks with 1GB of RAM and 80+ GB drives. Obviously, they still sell and they do the job for casual users - people who will email and browse Internet, maybe copy photos from P&S camera... but not much more than that. Netbooks hardware is comparable performance wise - you sacrifice bigger screen and built-in optical disk for portability and better battery performance. It is fair trade, from my point of view.



  • Reply 85 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Haggar View Post


    There will be no video iPod. Nobody wants to watch videos on an iPod.



    Apple will not enter the cell phone market.



    Apple will not allow third party native iPhone applications. Web apps are really, really SWEET.



    Apple will never switch to Intel processors.



    And at the end of all those statements ", until it is economically viable to do so and there is big enough market for such a thing".



    It's basic business acumen.
  • Reply 86 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I cannot see this being a common trend. If you have been using Macs for all of these years you have no Windows software. I cannot speak for your financial situation. But most people are not going to buy software for both Mac and PC.



    I live in Fort Green in Brooklyn. I cannot speak for the hundreds of thousands of other people living in my neighborhood. But when I go to the neighborhood coffee shop. I mostly see MacBooks and full Windows notebooks. I see netbooks here and there, far more people own iPhones and Blackberry for mobile internet and email.



    At $400 they are practically an impulse buy in computer terms. I think the media are really trying to hype netbooks but it still remains to be seen if they last in the long run.





    But it is a trend already. I have zero Windows software and I will certainly never buy any for the Asus for two reasons: #1, give me Firefox and I don't need anything else. The net is probably 75% of what 75% of people need out of laptop. It's a dinky little thing to go online with. It's not a work computer; and #2, because it comes bundled with anything else I'd need to do basic work if I desired, starting with MS Works, and I've already put a few freeware programs on it just for the heck of it. It was a gift to my wife, who wanted a laptop but wondered why it couldn't just be one of these tiny cheap ones : ) And both my kids, who only know and love Macs, write school papers on it, and do anything else a teenager needs to do on it. When they want to use iPhoto they use the family G4, and if they need to use Aperture and Elements they ask if they can use my MBP. But now that we have the Asus, believe me, it is never shut down. However better a $600 Apple version might be, I'm not convinced it would matter to most people, even Mac users, over what I see happening here. But it's a moot point, because there isn't one to buy : )



    Hey we're neighbors : ) (Park Slope, but don't start thinking I'm flush with cash. Been here 25 years. : ) )



    As far as what we see out in the world, MBs are better, MBP are even better. But a $400 notebook that's light as a feather (crap, I love my MBP but toting it around all day is an effort) and does what you ask it to do is no Emperor's New Clothes. The fact that you see a mix of Apple laptops, Windows laptops, iPhones, Blackberrys and netbooks shows that different people have different needs, and these are serving a need, not so much gaining ground on platforms that are losing ground. It's adding to the market.
  • Reply 87 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


    Clearly, I cannot speak for others, but for my most recent personal computer purchases, the OS that happened to be installed on the computer have seemed like almost an afterthought, rather than being the one of the first things I needed to decide. The software I use on a regular basis is equally available on most platforms.



    Absolutely. When I was jumping between a handful of different netbooks at the store last month whatever differentiating experience I could attribute to the OS on them was so slight that it didn't make my comparison notes, like the chip, drive type, keyboard feel, inputs and outputs and screen did.
  • Reply 88 of 186
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    That would pretty much be tablet PC form. Tablets lost miserably in PC segment, can't see them having big success in Mac World.



    For fully functional computer (which netbooks are, though a bit on the slower side), you simply need proper keyboard - as good as you can get. Fingering screen simply can not replace mechanical keyboard - even a small, low quality one (not that most netbooks have bad kbd at all). And having 9" screen permanently exposed on highly portable device? How long would it survive..?



    I don't know how good or bad OS in iPhone is... but can you plug in printer, external HDD, share data over network, connect digital camera and copy images from it, plug wired network at all..? Can you install normal, full featured apps? Once you start adding functionality and compatibility to iPhone OS, you end up with having (almost) fully featured OS.



    PC tablets lost miserably for the same reason all smartphones before the iPhone sucked: the user interface mimicked a PC desktop or TV menu. the revolution of the iPhone/Touch is precisely its UI which solved that problem, plus now the simplicity of its app operating architecture. that was my point - most of us don't need full featured applications. nearly everything we want to do outside the home/office can be accomplished very efficiently by a simplified single-purpose iPhone style app. and we don't need a big storage drive, we have the "cloud." in other words, we don't need a conventional but shrunken PC (or MacBook). we need an innovative but enlarged Touch.
  • Reply 89 of 186
    add to title - " or is the economy to blame?"



    I really don't mind paying 800 dollars for a mac netbook/tablet iphone. At least I'd know that there was an effort into getting the hardware working right and designed for ease of use.



    I just bought a MSI Wind netbook. Why it doesnt have an intel wifi chip is beyond me. It's a frackin' Intel atom chip after all (How about a centrino mini, Intel). Took me 2 days of wrangling to get the wifi working. I played with the EEEpc and others but they all looked like "rushed to market" Even HP, with their briliant design of putting the track buttons to the left and right of the trackpad is guilty of the "rush to market" design.



    I bet these PC vendors don't have a hardware design team.
  • Reply 90 of 186
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tonkin View Post


    Agreed. Just out holiday 'discount' shopping. Was surprised to see a display at Target with two tiny Asus netbooks for sale in $300 range. These will be big sellers, and more so if/when the 'free wi-fi' agenda (touted by the FCC) is in-place. So much easier to use than trying to email (an actual multi-lined email) from a cell-phone (even an iPhone).



    Just a little addition... Just came back from a vacation in Melbourne a week ago. During a 10 days time, I noticed there handful of backpackers with various netbooks, but not a single one with full size notebook.



    Makes sense. You can easily find place for netbook and it's tiny power supply in your backpack - something you'll struggle to do wit 15". 13", well, maybe... but I would guess many people don't want to hassle their expensive 13" notebooks - Macs or PCs - under far from perfect backpacking conditions.
  • Reply 91 of 186
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post


    PC tablets lost miserably for the same reason all smartphones before the iPhone sucked: the user interface mimicked a PC desktop or TV menu. the revolution of the iPhone/Touch is precisely its UI which solved that problem, plus now the simplicity of its app operating architecture. that was my point - most of us don't need full featured applications. nearly everything we want to do outside the home/office can be accomplished very efficiently by a simplified single-purpose iPhone style app. and we don't need a big storage drive, we have the "cloud." in other words, we don't need a conventional but shrunken PC (or MacBook). we need an innovative but enlarged Touch.



    To resume, you think more people want 9" tablet with iPhone functionality (or at least iPhone functionality philosophy), while I think more people want ultra small, ultra portable and cheap-as shrunk down version of normal laptop.



    The only way to see if such "Mac iTab" would really be success or not is to have one available (actually, we'd need both tablet Mac and standard netbook Mac to see which one sells better, but that is not going to happen). In the mean time I'll stick with my arguments: I don't think that any - ANY - clever tablet OS design can cover for hardware forced handicaps, largest having no keyboard. I can't see kids doing their homework on tablet, fingering touchscreen. I can't see travellers using touchscreen keyboard to write emails, do the diary (anyone still doing diary?), write down comments for photos they made... for extended period of time, weeks, maybe even months. In short, I believe tablets will always have less functionality than netbooks, and will attract less people as such.



    Then again, maybe I'm just too old-fashioned. Hard to tell.
  • Reply 92 of 186
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    That would pretty much be tablet PC form. Tablets lost miserably in PC segment, can't see them having big success in Mac World.



    For fully functional computer (which netbooks are, though a bit on the slower side), you simply need proper keyboard - as good as you can get. Fingering screen simply can not replace mechanical keyboard - even a small, low quality one (not that most netbooks have bad kbd at all). And having 9" screen permanently exposed on highly portable device? How long would it survive..?



    I don't know how good or bad OS in iPhone is... but can you plug in printer, external HDD, share data over network, connect digital camera and copy images from it, plug wired network at all..? Can you install normal, full featured apps? Once you start adding functionality and compatibility to iPhone OS, you end up with having (almost) fully featured OS.



    And PCs 'lost miserably' in the mainframe market until someone came along (um, who was that again?) with a proper interface. Stop looking backwards.

    Yes, I've always believed that a tablet should be dockable to a lightweight (or desktop) keyboard for those moments when you absolutely HAVE to write a novel on the go. That ain't often.

    Apple will release a 7-9" tablet when they're confident they have the interface and experience right, not before.

    And at that point, watch out... nothing but dust for those who've been trying to shoehorn a desktop OS onto a tablet.
  • Reply 93 of 186
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jameshopkins View Post


    Why don't Apple make a netbook type enclosing for the iPhone/Touch. Or would this be a terrible, terrible idea?



    You'll see scoffers at your idea, but its actually not that crazy.

    A shell with keyboard, additional ports, memory and power to drive better video to its screen, and you snap the touch or iPhone into the spot where the trackpad normally is, and it becomes a high-quality, multi-touch trackpad.



    I don't think that's nuts at all.
  • Reply 94 of 186
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jlandd View Post


    Absolutely. When I was jumping between a handful of different netbooks at the store last month whatever differentiating experience I could attribute to the OS on them was so slight that it didn't make my comparison notes, like the chip, drive type, keyboard feel, inputs and outputs and screen did.



    You're seriously suggesting that trying out a couple of apps or browser clicks on various systems gives you any idea what living with that OS for the next 2 years will be like?

    Please.

    The OS is about security and stability. Tell that 'no difference' story to someone who's spending $$ and hours every year keeping malware and viruses at bay.

    Ask anyone with a teenage boy how long a Windows machine can survive unrestricted browsing without needing to be reformatted.
  • Reply 95 of 186
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The title of this thread is set up for us to debate in this thread.



    Macs don't compete directly with any particular model of PC in that way. A consumer would first need to decide if they want a Mac or a PC. Then they decide which specific model of Mac or PC they want.



    People buying netbooks have already decided they want a Windows notebook. The next choice is which Windows notebook.



    Not true.

    I know a Mac user who has a PowerBook G4, 15" MacBook Pro and an iMac.

    He wanted something ultra-portable for when he travels.

    His choices were a MacBook Air for $1700 or an Eee PC for $399.



    He went with the Eee PC even though he would have preferred an Apple solution.

    He would have gone with a iPod Touch if he could use it with an Apple BT keyboard.
  • Reply 96 of 186
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    I don't think that any - ANY - clever tablet OS design can cover for hardware forced handicaps, largest having no keyboard. I can't see kids doing their homework on tablet, fingering touchscreen. I can't see travellers using touchscreen keyboard to write emails, do the diary (anyone still doing diary?), write down comments for photos they made... for extended period of time, weeks, maybe even months. In short, I believe tablets will always have less functionality than netbooks, and will attract less people as such.



    Then again, maybe I'm just too old-fashioned. Hard to tell.



    You nailed it with your last sentence (no value judgement intended.)

    I sat next to a 20-something girl on a flight recently who had to be doing 35-40 WPM thumb-typing on her iPhone. I was absolutely blown away.

    As long as you think of the typewriter as the best interface, you'll come to your current conclusion.

    I don't pretend to know what the next phase is... voice, gesture, motion, 'thumbing', combo of all of the above.

    But the first one to nail it will own the market. My money is on Jobs.

    (Literally... I'm long on AAPL.)
  • Reply 97 of 186
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GQB View Post


    You nailed it with your last sentence (no value judgement intended.)

    I sat next to a 20-something girl on a flight recently who had to be doing 35-40 WPM thumb-typing on her iPhone. I was absolutely blown away.



    I sincerely doubt that. Considering how many characters are on the second or even third keyboard, to even approach that speed, she'd have to forgo proper capitalization and punctuation. Then again, young people generally find such niceties useless impediments anyway. Besides, one person does not a rule make, even if your estimate of her speed was accurate.



    BTW, again for anyone who's pushing for a bigger iPhone, reports are that Apple refuses to let either Flash or Java be put on the iPhone. Flash, at least, is a serious impediment to "all of the Internet" on the iPhone, as Apple says the ARM processor just can't handle it, despite some people here continuing to insist that it's good enough for a netbook. Good luck watching Hulu on the iPhone. I wouldn't hold my breath for Silverlight, either, so kiss Netflix goodbye. Don't even think about Perian. And where's the iPhone's support for Quicktime MOV files? Yeah, that sure is a well-rounded OS.
  • Reply 98 of 186
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    A tablet should simply have something like Macspeech Dictate on it for very fast text input.



    There are a variety of modalities for text input. The clever device allows for a multiude of options. From touch to OCR to keyboards and speech.



    The more power we get in a portable package the more options we can do well.
  • Reply 99 of 186
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GQB View Post


    And PCs 'lost miserably' in the mainframe market until someone came along (um, who was that again?) with a proper interface. Stop looking backwards.

    Yes, I've always believed that a tablet should be dockable to a lightweight (or desktop) keyboard for those moments when you absolutely HAVE to write a novel on the go. That ain't often.

    Apple will release a 7-9" tablet when they're confident they have the interface and experience right, not before.

    And at that point, watch out... nothing but dust for those who've been trying to shoehorn a desktop OS onto a tablet.



    Don't agree. Just my opinion, not saying I'm right.



    Thing Apple can do is to make hybrid - netbook with both keyboard and touchscreen, and option to rotate screen so you can have it as classic notebook or as tablet. It was done before, but probably there is space for improvement/some fresh ideas. Maybe tablet with slide-out keyboard?



    Beside that... what would be advantage of tablet-only solution? A bit slimmer. A bit lighter. But if you need keyboard on the move, Lord help you balancing separate keyboard and main unit on your knees. I think it is simply loosing too much functionality without keyboard. On the mobile phone, where mechanical keyboard is, anyway, too small and limited, you can do without. But on unit where keyboard actually is useful...
  • Reply 100 of 186
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GQB View Post


    You nailed it with your last sentence (no value judgement intended.)

    I sat next to a 20-something girl on a flight recently who had to be doing 35-40 WPM thumb-typing on her iPhone. I was absolutely blown away.

    As long as you think of the typewriter as the best interface, you'll come to your current conclusion.

    I don't pretend to know what the next phase is... voice, gesture, motion, 'thumbing', combo of all of the above.

    But the first one to nail it will own the market. My money is on Jobs.

    (Literally... I'm long on AAPL.)



    Well... thanks... I guess...



    I'm just trying to be realistic. When I have opinion on something, I prefer not to think it is the only correct one just because it is mine.



    As I mentioned somewhere before, on my last trip to Melbourne I did notice handful of tourists using various netbooks, and much as I can tell they were all typing (emails?) or browsing (saw Google Maps or something similar more than once). Missed to notice any using iPhone or any other smart phone in the same manner, but might be just an coincidence.
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