...all come with faster USB 2.0 ports (when compared to previous Macs), so the speed advantage of FW400 is negligible (which is the only thing most mainstream consumers care about).
However, if Apple had really wanted to kill Firewire entirely, they would have dropped FW800 from the new MacBook Pros too - they didn't. FW400's death has been a long time coming. I strongly doubt anything new from Apple will ship with FW400. FW800, yes, it's far better than USB 2.0, but not FW400.
How is FW800 not better than FW400? It's twice as fast as it and backward compatible with it provided you use a connector adapater or appropriate 400/800 cable. And FW 400/800 both blow USB 2 out of the water for performance.
While announcing its new notebook offerings in October, Apple had indicated that it would be using more of NVIDIA's technology in its Mac computer line going forward.
Please drop the hot-business-speak of "going forward."
... activate Cone of Silence please - AARRGGHH! ...
The sentence already states that Apple will be using more of NVidia tech. This can only happen in the future. Thus the sentence statement was already complete were it to end with "...in its Mac computer line. [full stop]."
Does the phrase "going forward" clarify anything? They cannot intend to use more of it in the past, nor could they use more of it 'going backward', neither can they alter the normal flow of time, which is forward -- with or without them (or us). So the phrase is totally pointless and needless.
OK, so I have an issue with nonsense business or technical news jargon... sigh. \
...But you just noted in your post that the MacBooks lost Firewire. Notice how the Air debuted with no Firewire at all, the iPhone debuted with no syncing (or even charging) over Firewire, all current iPods now lack Firewire syncing/charging, and the new 24" LED Cinema Display lacks the FW400 ports of previous iterations as well? The new MacBooks, Airs, and Pros all come with faster USB 2.0 ports (when compared to previous Macs), so the speed advantage of FW400 is negligible (which is the only thing most mainstream consumers care about).
However, if Apple had really wanted to kill Firewire entirely, they would have dropped FW800 from the new MacBook Pros too - they didn't. FW400's death has been a long time coming. I strongly doubt anything new from Apple will ship with FW400. FW800, yes, it's far better than USB 2.0, but not FW400.
Apple also included a non-standard USB port on the Air, does that mean they'll include this same non-standard port on all future Macs? The port puts out more power than the USB spec says in order to power the external optical drive. I wouldn't point to the Air as an example of standards-to-come due to the unique compromises it makes.
iPods lost Firewire long before the iPhone came along. The reason was because of the need to support PCs. Many older PCs didn't have Firewire. And while many newer PCs include Firewire, it's the 4-pin variety that doesn't supply power. So you wouldn't be able to charge your iPod and iPhone battery. Space constraints and cost forced Apple to choose either FW or USB, but not both (as the first several generations of iPods did).
A $10 FW chip in a $150 iPod is a significant % of the cost. A $10 chip in a $600 computer is a little easier to justify. As for the MB, space may have been a constraint, but I still think differentiation is was the main reason, and there is no way Apple would admit that publicly so instead the lame "all camcorders use USB" excuse was offered.
The mini may lose FW, but I don't think it's as forgone a conclusion as some would make it out to be. Apple would need to include some great new feature or benefit to make up for the loss of Firewire before I'd buy one.
One or two of the causes for dropping Firewire from the MB aren't really there for the mini. There wasn't much board perimeter on the MB, and the main board is very tight, possibly squeezed out the FW arbitrator chip, the mini in its current form has plenty of room for jacks on the back.
I suppose if Apple chooses to shrink the mini by a lot, that might be enough to push it out. If they thought that the mini with better graphics might cause people to use it with Final Cut Studio, maybe, but that's a considerable compromise, using software that costs twice as much as the machine, cheaping out on the machine seems pretty short-sighted.
No the iMac WILL have FW800. The Mac mini will likely drop FW. Apple is going to be positioning FW as a step up feature.
One way to entice Mac mini owners or potential owners to upgrade is going to be discrete graphics and FW800.
The next Mac Pro will likely have FW 3.2Gbps. We can't forget for the iMac is indeed suitable for running apps like Final Cut Pro and Logic Studio. You delete FW here and you're going to harm your sales.
MB > MBP is an enticing upgrade path.
mini > iMac is much less so due to the huge differences.... Let's see, buy a mini, get a monitor, upgrade to an iMac, throw out the monitor. Not very enticing if you ask me.
There really isn't a separate MacBook and MacBook Pro lines anymore. It's just one lineup of laptops, and Apple needed to differentiate to support the price difference between the "consumer" and "pro" offerings in the lineup. The iMac and mini are both consumer models, and are already very differentiated. Apple could eliminate FW in the mini, but it would be very petty of them to do so.
I'm hoping that Apple keeps FW in the mini but the Apple Pessimist in me thinks it's gone.
That's too bad if true because a Mac mini with a FW audio interface, Mic, iLife and a USB midi keyboard is like a Podcaster/Musician's dream.
I recall having trouble recording a podcast using the mini because of the internal hard drive. The drive isn't as fast as the larger desktop type. It worked fine with an iMac. I didn't try music. Maybe the new drives are better.
I recall having trouble recording a podcast using the mini because of the internal hard drive. The drive isn't as fast as the larger desktop type. It worked fine with an iMac. I didn't try music. Maybe the new drives are better.
The drives are certainly slow. I tell you a Mac mini with Nvidia, 4GB of RAM and a SSD will rock the house.
I am happy to see evidence for a long-overdue revision to the Mac Mini (last release in Aug '07). Several of the folks I work with have bought them over the last several years, and I will be able to recommend them more strongly once they get this makeover. The Mini is a good choice for a large group of folks who (a) are not overly technically focused, (b) don't need the higher-end, (c) prefer to keep/get/use their own monitor, keyboard, (d) are switching from Windows.
As well, I hope for solid improvements in the iMac - my personal favorite.
And, dear Apple, Please Keep Firewire!
Oh how we pine, ache, wish, implore for our dear favorite computer maker to make new models without disenfranchising their loyal customers.
I (and many folks I know and work with) have many Firewire devices that would be practically (or totally) useless if Apple drop FW from yet another Macintosh. (I have posted to Apple Feedback, and to an online petition. We can hope... <http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html>
And lastly, to the comment about making the Mac mini ever so slightly larger so it could hold a 3.5" full-size HD - Yes! What would it take? perhaps .75 to 1" wider and longer? Go from 6.5" per side to 6.9 or 7" square. And for that meager increase in desktop space, it would vastly improve HD performance and capacity, plus cut Apple supply cost. (but, IMO, it won't happen -- they already have the form factor size 'fixed' in their heads, and in all the after-market add-ons ...)
If the Mini doesn't have FW800 I'd be really bummed. I want to ditch my G5 (with crazy amounts of eSATA enclosures) for a new Mini with a Drobo so badly.
It doesn't make sense to me that Apple would include FW800 on the mini. My guess is that it will be a USB-only machine. Also, I doubt there will ever be a desktop HDD in the mini. Although performance would increase, so would heat, noise, and power requirements. In fact there's a good chance that the whole mini case would vibrate.
I think that an iMac without the chin is a certainty at some point, but maybe not this time round. I think the "chin look" will appear very dated once it finally disappears. Otherwise the iMac has a pleasing appearance, but the white cable and keyboard need to go. Considering it is the most physically-handled part of the computer, white is the most impractical colour possible for a keyboard. At least a white mouse is easily replaced.
Because just like the MacBook, the updated iMac and Mac Mini will no longer have FireWire! There was originally a rumor on AI stating that these updates would be ready by November (in time for Christmas shopping season). Then Apple announce, no further updates for the year.
I think because of the large negative outcry over the lack of FW on the MacBooks these FireWire-less updates to the iMac and Mac Mini were put on ice... Until the Mac community cooled down some.
Dave
The iMac and Mini might have been scheduled for November, but I think they were delayed for the following reasons:
- Intel delayed introduction of their Nehalem Xeon (Gainstown) from Q4 2008 until Q1 2009 meaning that a new Mac Pro can't be introduced in January. Had the notebooks (iMac/Mini) that masquerade as Apple's desktop lineup been updated in November it would've left Apple with no hardware to show at Macworld.
- There were probably too many iMacs still sitting in the channel and they're counting on Christmas to clear them out at full price.
- Despite the fact that the Mini is essentially a MacBook, and in my opinion should use an identical logic board and thus be a MacBook minus the display, battery, kb, etc., Apple didn't want to dilute the new MacBook message by introducing a desktop variant.
As a side note I have to wonder what Apple's strategy is for the digital media revolution. They're one of the leaders in downloadable media yet they don't have a single product designed for storing and serving that content. If ever there was a business case for Apple to make a mini-tower this is it.
As a side note I have to wonder what Apple's strategy is for the digital media revolution. They're one of the leaders in downloadable media yet they don't have a single product designed for storing and serving that content. If ever there was a business case for Apple to make a mini-tower this is it.
I'm surprised it's taken them this long to rip-off the Drobo...
The next Mac Pro will likely have FW 3.2Gbps. We can't forget for the iMac is indeed suitable for running apps like Final Cut Pro and Logic Studio. You delete FW here and you're going to harm your sales.
Do we have any evidence that camera makers are preparing to put FW3200 ports on their high end cameras?
I'm a huge FW proponent, but I'm really starting to think that Apple is knifing the baby.
I'm surprised it's taken them this long to rip-off the Drobo...
I like the Drobo but I think arrays dedicated to one computer are going down the wrong path. A bare case and Drobo Share is $700.
Apple has the the right idea with Time Capule. Add some bays, beefier proc and removable drives and you've got a burgeoning superstar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777
Do we have any evidence that camera makers are preparing to put FW3200 ports on their high end cameras?
I'm a huge FW proponent, but I'm really starting to think that Apple is knifing the baby.
I know...the need for FW 3.2 Gbps is going to be limited to arrays mainly. Though in 3 years I expect that SSD in RAID configs will actually saturate the 3.2Gbs bandwidth easily.
As a side note I have to wonder what Apple's strategy is for the digital media revolution. They're one of the leaders in downloadable media yet they don't have a single product designed for storing and serving that content.
Totally agree. Your primary desktop/notebook doesn't fill this need. Nor does Time Capsule. Essentially one needs a home server...
How is FW800 not better than FW400? It's twice as fast as it and backward compatible with it provided you use a connector adapater or appropriate 400/800 cable. And FW 400/800 both blow USB 2 out of the water for performance.
Haha, no no, that's not what I meant to imply at all. Let me see if I can clear this up using words in brackets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
I strongly doubt anything new [ie, computers or devices] from Apple will ship with FW400. [A] FW800[-equipped computer or device], yes [I could see them releasing a computer or device with FW800], [because] it [FW800] is far better than USB 2.0, but [I do] not [see any more] FW400 [computers or devices coming given that FW400 no longer has the substantial speed advantage it once held over USB 2.0 on Macs].
Comments
...all come with faster USB 2.0 ports (when compared to previous Macs), so the speed advantage of FW400 is negligible (which is the only thing most mainstream consumers care about).
However, if Apple had really wanted to kill Firewire entirely, they would have dropped FW800 from the new MacBook Pros too - they didn't. FW400's death has been a long time coming. I strongly doubt anything new from Apple will ship with FW400. FW800, yes, it's far better than USB 2.0, but not FW400.
How is FW800 not better than FW400? It's twice as fast as it and backward compatible with it provided you use a connector adapater or appropriate 400/800 cable. And FW 400/800 both blow USB 2 out of the water for performance.
...
While announcing its new notebook offerings in October, Apple had indicated that it would be using more of NVIDIA's technology in its Mac computer line going forward.
Please drop the hot-business-speak of "going forward."
... activate Cone of Silence please - AARRGGHH! ...
The sentence already states that Apple will be using more of NVidia tech. This can only happen in the future. Thus the sentence statement was already complete were it to end with "...in its Mac computer line. [full stop]."
Does the phrase "going forward" clarify anything? They cannot intend to use more of it in the past, nor could they use more of it 'going backward', neither can they alter the normal flow of time, which is forward -- with or without them (or us). So the phrase is totally pointless and needless.
OK, so I have an issue with nonsense business or technical news jargon... sigh.
...But you just noted in your post that the MacBooks lost Firewire.
However, if Apple had really wanted to kill Firewire entirely, they would have dropped FW800 from the new MacBook Pros too - they didn't. FW400's death has been a long time coming. I strongly doubt anything new from Apple will ship with FW400. FW800, yes, it's far better than USB 2.0, but not FW400.
Apple also included a non-standard USB port on the Air, does that mean they'll include this same non-standard port on all future Macs? The port puts out more power than the USB spec says in order to power the external optical drive. I wouldn't point to the Air as an example of standards-to-come due to the unique compromises it makes.
iPods lost Firewire long before the iPhone came along. The reason was because of the need to support PCs. Many older PCs didn't have Firewire. And while many newer PCs include Firewire, it's the 4-pin variety that doesn't supply power. So you wouldn't be able to charge your iPod and iPhone battery. Space constraints and cost forced Apple to choose either FW or USB, but not both (as the first several generations of iPods did).
A $10 FW chip in a $150 iPod is a significant % of the cost. A $10 chip in a $600 computer is a little easier to justify. As for the MB, space may have been a constraint, but I still think differentiation is was the main reason, and there is no way Apple would admit that publicly so instead the lame "all camcorders use USB" excuse was offered.
The mini may lose FW, but I don't think it's as forgone a conclusion as some would make it out to be. Apple would need to include some great new feature or benefit to make up for the loss of Firewire before I'd buy one.
I suppose if Apple chooses to shrink the mini by a lot, that might be enough to push it out. If they thought that the mini with better graphics might cause people to use it with Final Cut Studio, maybe, but that's a considerable compromise, using software that costs twice as much as the machine, cheaping out on the machine seems pretty short-sighted.
No the iMac WILL have FW800. The Mac mini will likely drop FW. Apple is going to be positioning FW as a step up feature.
One way to entice Mac mini owners or potential owners to upgrade is going to be discrete graphics and FW800.
The next Mac Pro will likely have FW 3.2Gbps. We can't forget for the iMac is indeed suitable for running apps like Final Cut Pro and Logic Studio. You delete FW here and you're going to harm your sales.
MB > MBP is an enticing upgrade path.
mini > iMac is much less so due to the huge differences.... Let's see, buy a mini, get a monitor, upgrade to an iMac, throw out the monitor. Not very enticing if you ask me.
There really isn't a separate MacBook and MacBook Pro lines anymore. It's just one lineup of laptops, and Apple needed to differentiate to support the price difference between the "consumer" and "pro" offerings in the lineup. The iMac and mini are both consumer models, and are already very differentiated. Apple could eliminate FW in the mini, but it would be very petty of them to do so.
That's too bad if true because a Mac mini with a FW audio interface, Mic, iLife and a USB midi keyboard is like a Podcaster/Musician's dream.
I'm hoping that Apple keeps FW in the mini but the Apple Pessimist in me thinks it's gone.
That's too bad if true because a Mac mini with a FW audio interface, Mic, iLife and a USB midi keyboard is like a Podcaster/Musician's dream.
I recall having trouble recording a podcast using the mini because of the internal hard drive. The drive isn't as fast as the larger desktop type. It worked fine with an iMac. I didn't try music. Maybe the new drives are better.
I recall having trouble recording a podcast using the mini because of the internal hard drive. The drive isn't as fast as the larger desktop type. It worked fine with an iMac. I didn't try music. Maybe the new drives are better.
The drives are certainly slow. I tell you a Mac mini with Nvidia, 4GB of RAM and a SSD will rock the house.
I am happy to see evidence for a long-overdue revision to the Mac Mini (last release in Aug '07). Several of the folks I work with have bought them over the last several years, and I will be able to recommend them more strongly once they get this makeover. The Mini is a good choice for a large group of folks who (a) are not overly technically focused, (b) don't need the higher-end, (c) prefer to keep/get/use their own monitor, keyboard, (d) are switching from Windows.
As well, I hope for solid improvements in the iMac - my personal favorite.
And, dear Apple, Please Keep Firewire!
Oh how we pine, ache, wish, implore for our dear favorite computer maker to make new models without disenfranchising their loyal customers.
I (and many folks I know and work with) have many Firewire devices that would be practically (or totally) useless if Apple drop FW from yet another Macintosh. (I have posted to Apple Feedback, and to an online petition. We can hope... <http://www.petitiononline.com/MB1394/petition.html>
And lastly, to the comment about making the Mac mini ever so slightly larger so it could hold a 3.5" full-size HD - Yes! What would it take? perhaps .75 to 1" wider and longer? Go from 6.5" per side to 6.9 or 7" square. And for that meager increase in desktop space, it would vastly improve HD performance and capacity, plus cut Apple supply cost. (but, IMO, it won't happen -- they already have the form factor size 'fixed' in their heads, and in all the after-market add-ons ...)
I think that an iMac without the chin is a certainty at some point, but maybe not this time round. I think the "chin look" will appear very dated once it finally disappears. Otherwise the iMac has a pleasing appearance, but the white cable and keyboard need to go. Considering it is the most physically-handled part of the computer, white is the most impractical colour possible for a keyboard. At least a white mouse is easily replaced.
The drives are certainly slow. I tell you a Mac mini with Nvidia, 4GB of RAM and a SSD will rock the house.
If the Mini gets fast HDD's, expect FW to be dropped all together.
Because just like the MacBook, the updated iMac and Mac Mini will no longer have FireWire! There was originally a rumor on AI stating that these updates would be ready by November (in time for Christmas shopping season). Then Apple announce, no further updates for the year.
I think because of the large negative outcry over the lack of FW on the MacBooks these FireWire-less updates to the iMac and Mac Mini were put on ice... Until the Mac community cooled down some.
Dave
The iMac and Mini might have been scheduled for November, but I think they were delayed for the following reasons:
- Intel delayed introduction of their Nehalem Xeon (Gainstown) from Q4 2008 until Q1 2009 meaning that a new Mac Pro can't be introduced in January. Had the notebooks (iMac/Mini) that masquerade as Apple's desktop lineup been updated in November it would've left Apple with no hardware to show at Macworld.
- There were probably too many iMacs still sitting in the channel and they're counting on Christmas to clear them out at full price.
- Despite the fact that the Mini is essentially a MacBook, and in my opinion should use an identical logic board and thus be a MacBook minus the display, battery, kb, etc., Apple didn't want to dilute the new MacBook message by introducing a desktop variant.
As a side note I have to wonder what Apple's strategy is for the digital media revolution. They're one of the leaders in downloadable media yet they don't have a single product designed for storing and serving that content. If ever there was a business case for Apple to make a mini-tower this is it.
The fact a vocal minority complained about the loss of FW400
This isn't aimed directly at Wobegon, because I see it happening a lot on these forums:
Nothing like branding a group of people, whose opinions don't align with yours, a 'vocal minority'. How condescending?
A few years ago, the entire Mac user base could have been described as a 'vocal minority'.
As a side note I have to wonder what Apple's strategy is for the digital media revolution. They're one of the leaders in downloadable media yet they don't have a single product designed for storing and serving that content. If ever there was a business case for Apple to make a mini-tower this is it.
I'm surprised it's taken them this long to rip-off the Drobo...
The next Mac Pro will likely have FW 3.2Gbps. We can't forget for the iMac is indeed suitable for running apps like Final Cut Pro and Logic Studio. You delete FW here and you're going to harm your sales.
Do we have any evidence that camera makers are preparing to put FW3200 ports on their high end cameras?
I'm a huge FW proponent, but I'm really starting to think that Apple is knifing the baby.
I'm surprised it's taken them this long to rip-off the Drobo...
I like the Drobo but I think arrays dedicated to one computer are going down the wrong path. A bare case and Drobo Share is $700.
Apple has the the right idea with Time Capule. Add some bays, beefier proc and removable drives and you've got a burgeoning superstar
Do we have any evidence that camera makers are preparing to put FW3200 ports on their high end cameras?
I'm a huge FW proponent, but I'm really starting to think that Apple is knifing the baby.
I know...the need for FW 3.2 Gbps is going to be limited to arrays mainly. Though in 3 years I expect that SSD in RAID configs will actually saturate the 3.2Gbs bandwidth easily.
As a side note I have to wonder what Apple's strategy is for the digital media revolution. They're one of the leaders in downloadable media yet they don't have a single product designed for storing and serving that content.
Totally agree. Your primary desktop/notebook doesn't fill this need. Nor does Time Capsule. Essentially one needs a home server...
How is FW800 not better than FW400? It's twice as fast as it and backward compatible with it provided you use a connector adapater or appropriate 400/800 cable. And FW 400/800 both blow USB 2 out of the water for performance.
Haha, no no, that's not what I meant to imply at all.
I strongly doubt anything new [ie, computers or devices] from Apple will ship with FW400. [A] FW800[-equipped computer or device], yes [I could see them releasing a computer or device with FW800], [because] it [FW800] is far better than USB 2.0, but [I do] not [see any more] FW400 [computers or devices coming given that FW400 no longer has the substantial speed advantage it once held over USB 2.0 on Macs].
That better?