Palm is back

2

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  • Reply 21 of 49
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Oh I think Apple is going to fly right on by those features.



    I remember the day when people were bitching that Apple didn't have a phone. I also remember the day when people were bitching that Apple released a Not-Ready-For-Primetime (tm) iPhone. Now people continue to bitch about the 3G iPhone, which sells actually rather well.
  • Reply 22 of 49
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member
    Whether this is a great device has still to be seen. There are months to go before this is released for real.

    But what they showed is interesting. Much more interesting than anything Nokia, RIM or MS are showing.

    And arguably more interesting that Android too.



    Multi-Tasking & Notifications

    The OS is doing just enough multi-tasking. I suspect that the apps in background get hardly any resources. But it's just enough to give the impression that they are live and able to push notifications at the user when he needs to see them.



    Apple's iPhone applications need to have a state between active and dead. So that they can match this.



    Task Switching

    The interface makes it clear which apps are active and allows slick transitions between them. This has to need more RAM.



    System wide search

    The system wide search is something that is so Apple like. A single mechanism for finding contacts, apps or searching the web is like Quicksilver. Apple should have done this first.



    Some of this functionality relies will rely on more CPU power and more RAM which is why the cost of the Pre will be "More than $200"



    Can't wait to see Apple's response.



    C.
  • Reply 23 of 49
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post




    Can't wait to see Apple's response.



    C.



    Well, they got 5-6 months to release the new iPhone hotness.
  • Reply 24 of 49
    adjeiadjei Posts: 738member
    Isn't this what we here about every phone that is introuduced these days, they make a lot of noise but when it's time for the phone to deliver and knock Apple of it's pedestal, it fails. We heard the same before the G1, Storm, the N97 from Nokia, and now this, NEXT. Those companies are bigger companies than Palm and yet they failed but yet little tiny Palm is supposed to do the job, don't make me laugh. The phone is not even here yet and by the time it's out, the new iphone will be out.
  • Reply 25 of 49
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    Whether this is a great device has still to be seen. There are months to go before this is released for real.

    But what they showed is interesting. Much more interesting than anything Nokia, RIM or MS are showing.

    And arguably more interesting that Android too.



    Multi-Tasking & Notifications

    The OS is doing just enough multi-tasking. I suspect that the apps in background get hardly any resources. But it's just enough to give the impression that they are live and able to push notifications at the user when he needs to see them.



    Apple's iPhone applications need to have a state between active and dead. So that they can match this.



    Task Switching

    The interface makes it clear which apps are active and allows slick transitions between them. This has to need more RAM.



    System wide search

    The system wide search is something that is so Apple like. A single mechanism for finding contacts, apps or searching the web is like Quicksilver. Apple should have done this first.



    Some of this functionality relies will rely on more CPU power and more RAM which is why the cost of the Pre will be "More than $200"



    Can't wait to see Apple's response.



    C.



    I agree with all of this except the app switching that lets me know which apps are active. If the phone does a good job of managing resources, I don't really care what's running or not. A handset doesn't really lend itself to having more than one app running in front, so the desktop metaphor of multiple apps running with animated transitions doesn't really make sense. Seeing a running app get sucked into a dock-lite doesn't give me any useful information, unlike desktop apps where long load times and user ram management mean I want to know what all I have open.



    Really fast quits and restarts with saved states get the job done with less resources, and that plus your idea of just enough twilight activity to push notifications when necessary would make Apple's version indistinguishable from true multitasking. After all, no matter what kind of ram and cpu resources might be or become available, actual multitasking is a battery drain.



    In general, I think Apple's idea of a handset OS moves us further toward the true computer appliance, where all the ins and outs of "managing" the workspace are replaced by dead simple direct interaction. I think some of Palm's desktop-y ideas look interesting, but I'm not convinced that they're not adding unnecessary complexity.
  • Reply 26 of 49
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    In general, I think Apple's idea of a handset OS moves us further toward the true computer appliance, where all the ins and outs of "managing" the workspace are replaced by dead simple direct interaction. I think some of Palm's desktop-y ideas look interesting, but I'm not convinced that they're not adding unnecessary complexity.



    Good post. I think we will have to wait and see.

    But I bet Apple's engineers were following the Palm announcement with interest. Not least because more than a few former Apple engineers are now at Palm.



    I just wonder what is happening with Apple's notification system? It's late and I wonder if Apple are doing something a little more ambitious.



    C,
  • Reply 27 of 49
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox


    In general, I think Apple's idea of a handset OS moves us further toward the true computer appliance, where all the ins and outs of "managing" the workspace are replaced by dead simple direct interaction. I think some of Palm's desktop-y ideas look interesting, but I'm not convinced that they're not adding unnecessary complexity.



    I noticed the iPhone seems easier to use too. Even to us geeks. Although I'm sure the multi-tasking is good, I have my doubts about some of the methodology they used.
  • Reply 28 of 49
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    Good post. I think we will have to wait and see.

    But I bet Apple's engineers were following the Palm announcement with interest. Not least because more than a few former Apple engineers are now at Palm.



    I just wonder what is happening with Apple's notification system? It's late and I wonder if Apple are doing something a little more ambitious.



    C,



    Yep. I actually pretty much like the general look of the Pre UI, but it's all in the subtle feel of using it. Apple seems to have nailed that certain something, call it flow, intuitiveness, elegance, whatever. If the Pre has that "just feels right" quality, then Palm may have a winner on their hands.



    Although I would still question the wisdom of putting a fixed portrait keyboard on the thing-- if it's like the G1 and you have to pop it out every time you need to do any text entry, that's a drag. I guess Palm could put contextual touch keyboards on certain apps, though.
  • Reply 29 of 49
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    I have a gut feeling Palm just ain't going to be strongly successful with this.
  • Reply 30 of 49
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    http://live.gdgt.com/2009/01/08/live...ces-2009/#more



    Finally, a mobile OS that actually looks better than iPhone.

    From Palm, who'd a thunk it?



    C.



    Impressive design, nonetheless. But the overall user experience... Hmm... not sure what it is going to be like.
  • Reply 31 of 49
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    I have a gut feeling Palm just ain't going to be strongly successful with this.



    I don't know, I think it looks pretty promising. I don't know if its better than the iPhone as some claim but it looks pretty comparable IMO.



    Heck my wife is on Sprint (which has better cell service in my area) and I'm thinking of getting her one. I wonder if they'll have it on the market by Valentine's day?
  • Reply 32 of 49
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    I don't know, I think it looks pretty promising. I don't know if its better than the iPhone as some claim but it looks pretty comparable IMO.



    Heck my wife is on Sprint (which has better cell service in my area) and I'm thinking of getting her one. I wonder if they'll have it on the market by Valentine's day?



    Unlikely. They said 1st half of this year. Whatever that means; we're already in the first half of this year. To most people that means a summer release.
  • Reply 33 of 49
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    The big problem is that it isn't ready now. They've given Apple a six month opportunity to outdo their product.



    And since Jobs seems to dislike Rubenstein with a passion these days (for taking some people from Apple), I think he's going to take this personally.
  • Reply 34 of 49
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    One thing a lot of people (who couldn't stop thinking in terms of "phones" and "the phone market") failed to understand about the iPhone is that it's a very small general purpose computer running a subset of a general purpose desktop OS.



    By making the screen virtually the only thing the user interacts with, Apple also made sure that, for all intents and purposes, the OS and its UI are the device.



    What that means is that when a competitor comes out with the new hotness, Apple can see if there are any "features" that look interesting, and add them. For instance, if that floating ghost dock thing catches on...... no reason Apple couldn't incorporate something like it, invoked with a particular gesture. Or the oft mentioned Facebook integration.



    In fact, outside of the camera and the keyboard, there isn't a thing on the Pre that Apple couldn't replicate, should any aspect of it prove really useful.



    I realize this may sound self evident to some, but a lot of folks are still thinking in terms of how each new "it" phone tends to eclipse the previous "it" phone by trumping "features."



    But with the introduction of the iPhone, all that changed. Today, the situation is far more analogous to laptops-- if someone brings out some software that looks cool, no one thinks about dumping their laptop to get the cool new deal. You just add software to your existing machine. Market differentiation via some apps or a UI look is going to be tough, going forward.



    So the Pre will be obliged to compete on more than just being cool looking in a slightly different way than the iPhone, it will have to compete on functionality, reliability, price, and its software ecosystem. The hardware looks just fine, but beyond some of the demo friendly UI animations, can Palm actually get it to do anything that makes a compelling case over the iPhone?



    And if so, can they do it in such a way that Apple can't replicate easily?



    I'm not saying that there isn't room for a variety of interesting smart phones with well thought out operating systems. I'm just saying that the odds of a phone like the Pre, which is much like the iPhone with some interesting wrinkles, taking the world by storm seem slight, at this point.
  • Reply 35 of 49
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Com-pa-tish-onnn!!!11



    We need a video!!!!!



    Here everyone the link to the Palm keynote:



    http://palmone.r3h.net/downloads.palm.com/ces.mov
  • Reply 36 of 49
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I still don't think it looks better than the iphone (I don't get the rounded screen corners), just another wannabe.



    The improvements other devices may make are mainly things the iphone could do via a software update from Apple.



    It still lacks an ipod and it's all web apps. Web apps are not proper apps and fall very short of what low level apps are capable of. If it doesn't have anything beyond HTML, CSS, JS etc, it will fail badly.



    We don't know what graphics processor it has either.



    It's good that other devices are progressing but every one I've seen is riding the wake from the iphone.



    The physical keyboard is redundant or they didn't implement the software one properly.



    ????



    It plays music and they said the sdk will give full access to all the hardware features.
  • Reply 37 of 49
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post


    Here everyone the link to the Palm keynote:



    http://palmone.r3h.net/downloads.palm.com/ces.mov



    Yeah I saw it already, that's a quality link though. Thanks!
  • Reply 38 of 49
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Yeah I saw it already, that's a quality link though. Thanks!



    I saw the video again and what Jon Rubenstein says in the beginning strikes me as being very important and a bit of a jab at Steve Jobs and Apple.



    He says basically that smartphones today should not be just a bunch of applications bolted on top of a phone and that it needs to be more than that.

    Clearly he was setting up to talk about synergy and how all data from multiple applications gets sorted and merged automatically for you.



    The iphone does not do this.



    The cards feature of the WebOS GUI is wonderful and all but its really its "synergy" feature of having the device sort and merge all the data on the phone automatically for you is whats going to biotch slap and drop kick the iphone platform to its knees!



    Yes yes, Palm will of course have to execute perfectly in the next six months for all of this to happen. But really though......Jon Rubenstein has come up with some freakin killer stuff here!

    Ok, the first handset based on this new OS is kinda well.....nice I suppose. Its not bad mind you...but it could be better.



    But doable for the launch.



    Expect though multiple products from palm to be based on this WebOS they call it. I even hear that one of those handsets might be a fancy one without a hardware keyboard and larger screen. Or perhaps they will do another one with a different type of hardware keyboard. I think Jon has executed that lesson he learned from Steve that says you shouldn't skate to where the puck was but to where its going to be.



    I believe they have done so with the WebOS's "cards" GUI feature and with the "synergy" system. I think especially so with the synergy system.

    I don't see Apple surpassing those features.......at least not to a substantial degree in the next six months.

    They will match them though. At least that much Apple will do.



    But then.....that would mean Apple would be skating to where the puck was?



    .......oh boy. \
  • Reply 39 of 49
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,273moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post


    ????



    It plays music and they said the sdk will give full access to all the hardware features.



    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338583,00.asp



    "While the Pre won't come with desktop software, there will be solutions for people to get their Palm Desktop or Outlook info, and info from earlier Treo and Centro models, into the Pre."



    No desktop sync software?



    "Will the Pre run Palm OS apps?

    Not initially, but a third party could write a Palm OS emulator."




    App count = 0, developers are going to have a long porting time ahead to bring over all the popular Palm apps - assuming most are webapps, they will work on the iphone too quite easily.



    "How do you get music and video onto the Pre?

    You can drag and drop it over from your PC using USB mass storage, or buy songs on the device using a built in Amazon MP3 Store client."




    Sure but what about playlists?



    "What will the app store look like?

    I saw it; it has a page of featured apps with star ratings below them. It looks a lot like the Apple app store."




    "The SDK will be called Mojo, and will have APIs to extend Javascript to access hardware features of the device, Palm reps said. There are things you won't be able to do in the 1.0 SDK, like write directly to the frame buffer. But you'll be able to access all the core phone databases."



    So nothing close to the low-level iphone SDK. Extending Javascript still means running interpreted code, which is many times slower than low-level compiled code. Despite Palm's faster processor, it likely won't run faster than the iphone.



    "The browser is based on WebKit, like Apple's Safari. It supports streaming video in RTSP, H.263 and H.264 formats, but not Flash. However, I'm almost 100 percent sure Palm and Adobe are working on a Flash plug-in right now."



    "Palm will certify all developers and approve all apps, but only to make sure they work properly. They won't kill apps for content-related reasons like Apple does. Think Android, not iPhone."



    "Is webOS Linux based?

    Yes, but developers won't get access to the Linux core."




    So as I say, it looks like they've made almost a carbon copy of the iphone with a worse SDK, worse design and a worse music player. They may make a better SDK later on like Apple did but their marketing of 'WebOS' wounds like they want to use web software for everything.



    Quote:

    Clearly he was setting up to talk about synergy and how all data from multiple applications gets sorted and merged automatically for you.



    The iphone does not do this.



    Don't all apps have access to your contacts list? Beyond contacts, I don't know what other common information people need. What examples of synergy did they give specifically where the iphone is lacking? Besides having access to a common copy/paste buffer.



  • Reply 40 of 49
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post


    I saw the video again and what Jon Rubenstein says in the beginning strikes me as being very important and a bit of a jab at Steve Jobs and Apple.



    He says basically that smartphones today should not be just a bunch of applications bolted on top of a phone and that it needs to be more than that.



    I didn't read into it like that. He didn't mean the iPhone, he meant other smartphones as far as I'm concerned.
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