I know several people who don't use their iPhone for music and/or video. If you're only using the iPhone as a phone, 4GB is plenty.
That's not the concern. I doubt Apple saves much money by dropping in a 4GB chip rather than an 8GB chip, which is the very crux of the problem with asking for an 4GB unit. Do you know how little flash memory costs these days? For example, a high quality SDHC 8GB card costs only $6 more than a 4GB card, same brand, same high speed. I wouldn't be surprised to see 8GB cards as cereal box prizes later this year.
It might even cost Apple more than they are saving by adding a SKU and putting it into the distribution chain, more complexity, tracking more inventory and so on. For what? Apple's costs won't go down and and people think they're going to convince Apple to give up $50-$100 of profit? Apple is used to selling lower volume products to get a higher margin, like with their Macs, even if sales did go down, I don't think they will feel they have to cut their prices so much just to keep the same flow of customers.
There is absolutely no burden to having too much space (too much space is often better than not enough space), and no benefit to Apple for providing one with less space at a lower price. So why why all this clamor? I just don't see how the numbers could add up to be a win for Apple and a win for customers.
I could be wrong, but if I am wrong, I would expect that there are externalities that just aren't accounted for in this discussion.
So you are expecting a $100 difference in cost to you for a capacity increase that MIGHT cost Apple $2.50? This is the problem I see with this 4gb iPhone argument, it just isn't going to impact price in a significant way and in any event you are shooting at a moving target when it comes to flash prices.
Dave
Perfect, and exactly right.
A 4gb phone would save Apple almost nothing and therefore change the pricing almost nothing.
This stuff started a year ago, and the people carrying it forward are dumber'n a bag a hammers.
If you follow Apple's progression at all, you know the next thing coming is a 32gb phone.
I have a 16GB iPhone and my wife have a 8GB iPhone. I have around 9GB of used space and my wife have 1.5GB used! We have exactly the same music and photo libraries. I keep all my music and half my photos in my iPhone but she only have few songs and few photos. She never exceeded the 2GB mark and therefore a $50 to $100 saving for 4GB would have been nice. Not everyone buys an iPhone for music. Most people want the internet, mail, and/or Apps.
Since no one bought the 4GB phone when it was available, Apple dropped it. People also use the iPhone for VIDEO, which does occupy a lot of space. You are right, not everyone buys an iPhone for music, they use it for music, video, photos, internet, mail, and a phone. The 4GB phone (actually formatted to 3.7 GB) was a joke. It is great being able to watch part of a movie or a TV show while waiting somewhere...airport, doctor's office, auto mechanic. Makes the time go by quickly. I have a selection of music, video, photos, and apps and my 16 GB phone is full.
Show me a reasonably featured iphone plan for ~$50/mo and I'll show you your millions of new subscribers.
I currently pay $60/month for my iPhone (16 GB Original), and that's only $20 more than what I was paying before with my Moto Razr. I have plenty of minutes for my use, with rollover, and data and text messaging. I do think there should be an option for 3G use, and for those that don't want it, can pay the original $20 data plan with Edge only.
AT&T wants a cheaper iphone for their data plan, NOW lets talk margin, if ATT is saying to apple we'll pay $$$so we can grow this data plan. but what ATT may REALLY want is that
2 YEAR CONTRACT......as this market gets mature, then its not the phone cost that matters at all as many have said.....this happened some time ago when the iphone was rumored, verizon et all were pushing lower cost 2 YEAR AND SOME 3 YEAR CONTRACTS to lock in the customer
this also doesn't follow the ipod path, different form factors, more capability like
voice dialing
cut paste
tethering
BT with keyboards and other BT expansion
but data rates need to come down (that is the limiting cost for many) , but where is the competitive pressure to do so at least in the USA
i could see this if another bango hot iphone upgrade came in june and then you have the stairstep function, and less reliance on the form factor.
maybe SJ can't make a funtional "value" to customer "nano" maybe the iphone is ideal in size.
i don't think so, if you had a basic ipod nano with, minimal phone capablility, texting, (wifi +/- different models) wifi, and some storage, it could be 2g (and bulk up the 2g network....not) then i could see a place for a 4gb 2g wifi iphone. work that click wheel like these teens work the number pad, hey it would be a new "thing". hey you could make the ipod nano screen with a click go to dialer...hmmm now that would be sweet.
what market are they going after with this anyway, if data plans stay as is??
Ok, companies like Apple buy large quantities of components to save on cost. So, you get 8gb & 16gb nanos, iPhones and iPod touches. There is also a 32gb touch which uses 2 16gb flash chips. Nowhere in there are 4gb chips. This makes a 4gb iPhone incredibly unlikely. As a financial guy he should know this. What a tool.
So you are expecting a $100 difference in cost to you for a capacity increase that MIGHT cost Apple $2.50? This is the problem I see with this 4gb iPhone argument, it just isn't going to impact price in a significant way and in any event you are shooting at a moving target when it comes to flash prices.
The only possible way I could see this happening is if AT&T and Apple wanted a cheap device for the pay as you go market that doesn't seriously encroach on iPhone's feature set. The rumored Nano could be a sign of such a device. That is a cell phone targetted at an entirely different marketing program. Nano would then be a device specifically engineered not to appeal to current iPhone buyers, probably by supporting 2 G only.
In any event the number one issue is they falling price of flash in general. In the short term I expect Apple will simply bump up baseline capacity in the iPhone's, it just doesn't make sense to go backwards in most cases. The exception here is if Apple has an improved iPhone in the wings and this 4GB would then become the low end iPhone. For a new high end iPhone it should be possible for Apple to cram a lot of stuff into a new iPhone considering some of the technologybreleases I've seen. This new iPhone would be easily differentiated from the current model. Such a phone could be improved all around from processor core to camera to wifi hardware and everything else. This would make the 4GB iPhone the poo' mans iPhone.
Dave
When Apple released the iPhone the 4GB version cost for Apple was $20 less than the 8GB but they still charged $100 for the upgrade. I agree it may not cost them much but for the person who is going to buy an iPhone the $100 is half $200 regardless of the total cost. In my opinion, they are better off lowering the price of the 8GB when they release the 32GB version instead of releasing a 4GB iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj
That's why I RESPECTFULLY disagree. But even if you don't use the space on a regular basis it's nice to have on a ten hour flight, or when you need a portable hard drive in a jam, or whatever.
And back to an earlier point made above: This does virtually NOTHING for total cost of ownership. $100 off a two year contract - what's the point?
I admit I'm surprised at how many people disagree with me. But I still think a size as small as 4GB would be more of a deterrent than a boon.
Now, yes it might be but 6 months ago prices were not that low. When I bought my iPhone my local Apple store ran out of 8GB iPhones so I bought the 16GB instead.
Why do you want that $3000 bonus? it is nothing compared to what you make in your life time!!
$100 might not sound much but you can pay your first month cell phone bill with it, buy two iPods shuffle, fill your car with gas at least twice, or .... etc. For some people $100 is much (even for some of those who bought iPhones). I know many students in our university campus who have iPhones and take loans to pay for tuition and books.
I am not disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing with you. I was just stating my point of view, a lower price iPhone will increase sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones
Since no one bought the 4GB phone when it was available, Apple dropped it. People also use the iPhone for VIDEO, which does occupy a lot of space. You are right, not everyone buys an iPhone for music, they use it for music, video, photos, internet, mail, and a phone. The 4GB phone (actually formatted to 3.7 GB) was a joke. It is great being able to watch part of a movie or a TV show while waiting somewhere...airport, doctor's office, auto mechanic. Makes the time go by quickly. I have a selection of music, video, photos, and apps and my 16 GB phone is full.
The reason no one bought the 4GB iPhone because they were sold for $499 and the 8GB were sold for $599. If I am going to shell out $500 why not get double the capacity for %20 more?! this is how people think when they want to buy something (initial cost is the most important factor). The 3G and 1st gen iPhone cost almost the same over the 2 years contract but 3G sold in 3 months what the 1st generation sold in a year (and it was not because 3G or GPS. It was because of the lower initial buying cost).
I'm glad someone said something so I wouldn't have to.
If anything all the complaints about how expensive the iPhone data plan is makes you realize that the iPhone is exposing smartphones to people that have never looked into them and their offered plans before, which can only make smartphone marketshare rise not flatten out.
Exactly. People who were content with "just a phone" have discovered that can use and enjoy an iPhone, but they want to keep paying "just a phone" rates.
Before the iPhone, the only people dealing with smart phones kind of knew what they were getting into and were willing to pony up for the functionality.
... I was just stating my point of view, a lower price iPhone will increase sales....
You're right, I admit it. When people desperately want to buy something they can't afford they'll take almost anything as justification for the purchase.
I doubt Apple saves much money by dropping in a 4GB chip rather than an 8GB chip, which is the very crux of the problem with asking for an 4GB unit. Do you know how little flash memory costs these days? For example, a high quality SDHC 8GB card costs only $6 more than a 4GB card, same brand, same high speed. I wouldn't be surprised to see 8GB cards as cereal box prizes later this year.
And yet the 16GB model is $100 more expensive on AT&T. 4GB would allow Apple to release an iPhone at a lower price point whilst still retaining the perceived (not actual) value of the 8GB model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones
Then why did they waste their money on an iPhone if they are only using it as a phone? They are really missing out on the iPhone's full capability.
Some people like using a phone with a big screen and nice UI. Why should they be obliged to use every feature on a device?
There is no way Apple is coming with a 4 GB nano. This would blow when it comes to the Apple App store. Once Apple has 16 GB as the standard, then maybe a 8gb for a nano. Apps is one of the leading reasons people will buy one in the first place for consumer level. 4 gb will not get it done unless it was removable.
There is no way Apple is coming with a 4 GB nano. This would blow when it comes to the Apple App store.
How is this silly meme still alive? The typical app is about the size of a typical music file. It takes a lot of apps to make a noticeable dent in usable space.
How is this silly meme still alive? The typical app is about the size of a typical music file. It takes a lot of apps to make a noticeable dent in usable space.
Maybe, but if you use your phone like I assume most folks do-- with a lot of music, a fair number of pictures, and some video, that plus apps chews through 4 GB pretty quick.
Not unusable, by any means, but I can't remember a time Apple offered any machine with less stock memory than the lowest current model, just to hit a price point.
Make the existing middle the new low end when you add a new model, and drop the old lower end completely, yes. Add a new model at the same price as the old model and drop the price on the old model, yes.
But not go back a generation, spec wise, to create a new low end.
Maybe, but if you use your phone like I assume most folks do-- with a lot of music, a fair number of pictures, and some video, that plus apps chews through 4 GB pretty quick.
...
But not go back a generation, spec wise, to create a new low end.
I agree, but my point with the previous post was that the notion that iPhone apps taking a lot of space just doesn't hold. There are a few big ones, but most of them that I've seen are very tiny.
I agree, but my point with the previous post was that the notion that iPhone apps taking a lot of space just doesn't hold. There are a few big ones, but most of them that I've seen are very tiny.
Heh. As I was typing that I was vaguely thinking "You're rebutting a point he wasn't making" but then I saw a squirrel and forgot.
Comments
I know several people who don't use their iPhone for music and/or video. If you're only using the iPhone as a phone, 4GB is plenty.
That's not the concern. I doubt Apple saves much money by dropping in a 4GB chip rather than an 8GB chip, which is the very crux of the problem with asking for an 4GB unit. Do you know how little flash memory costs these days? For example, a high quality SDHC 8GB card costs only $6 more than a 4GB card, same brand, same high speed. I wouldn't be surprised to see 8GB cards as cereal box prizes later this year.
It might even cost Apple more than they are saving by adding a SKU and putting it into the distribution chain, more complexity, tracking more inventory and so on. For what? Apple's costs won't go down and and people think they're going to convince Apple to give up $50-$100 of profit? Apple is used to selling lower volume products to get a higher margin, like with their Macs, even if sales did go down, I don't think they will feel they have to cut their prices so much just to keep the same flow of customers.
There is absolutely no burden to having too much space (too much space is often better than not enough space), and no benefit to Apple for providing one with less space at a lower price. So why why all this clamor? I just don't see how the numbers could add up to be a win for Apple and a win for customers.
I could be wrong, but if I am wrong, I would expect that there are externalities that just aren't accounted for in this discussion.
So you are expecting a $100 difference in cost to you for a capacity increase that MIGHT cost Apple $2.50? This is the problem I see with this 4gb iPhone argument, it just isn't going to impact price in a significant way and in any event you are shooting at a moving target when it comes to flash prices.
Dave
Perfect, and exactly right.
A 4gb phone would save Apple almost nothing and therefore change the pricing almost nothing.
This stuff started a year ago, and the people carrying it forward are dumber'n a bag a hammers.
If you follow Apple's progression at all, you know the next thing coming is a 32gb phone.
More capacity, not less.
I have a 16GB iPhone and my wife have a 8GB iPhone. I have around 9GB of used space and my wife have 1.5GB used! We have exactly the same music and photo libraries. I keep all my music and half my photos in my iPhone but she only have few songs and few photos. She never exceeded the 2GB mark and therefore a $50 to $100 saving for 4GB would have been nice. Not everyone buys an iPhone for music. Most people want the internet, mail, and/or Apps.
Since no one bought the 4GB phone when it was available, Apple dropped it. People also use the iPhone for VIDEO, which does occupy a lot of space. You are right, not everyone buys an iPhone for music, they use it for music, video, photos, internet, mail, and a phone. The 4GB phone (actually formatted to 3.7 GB) was a joke. It is great being able to watch part of a movie or a TV show while waiting somewhere...airport, doctor's office, auto mechanic. Makes the time go by quickly. I have a selection of music, video, photos, and apps and my 16 GB phone is full.
I know several people who don't use their iPhone for music and/or video. If you're only using the iPhone as a phone, 4GB is plenty.
Then why did they waste their money on an iPhone if they are only using it as a phone? They are really missing out on the iPhone's full capability.
Show me a reasonably featured iphone plan for ~$50/mo and I'll show you your millions of new subscribers.
I currently pay $60/month for my iPhone (16 GB Original), and that's only $20 more than what I was paying before with my Moto Razr. I have plenty of minutes for my use, with rollover, and data and text messaging. I do think there should be an option for 3G use, and for those that don't want it, can pay the original $20 data plan with Edge only.
2 YEAR CONTRACT......as this market gets mature, then its not the phone cost that matters at all as many have said.....this happened some time ago when the iphone was rumored, verizon et all were pushing lower cost 2 YEAR AND SOME 3 YEAR CONTRACTS to lock in the customer
this also doesn't follow the ipod path, different form factors, more capability like
voice dialing
cut paste
tethering
BT with keyboards and other BT expansion
but data rates need to come down (that is the limiting cost for many) , but where is the competitive pressure to do so at least in the USA
i could see this if another bango hot iphone upgrade came in june and then you have the stairstep function, and less reliance on the form factor.
maybe SJ can't make a funtional "value" to customer "nano" maybe the iphone is ideal in size.
i don't think so, if you had a basic ipod nano with, minimal phone capablility, texting, (wifi +/- different models) wifi, and some storage, it could be 2g (and bulk up the 2g network....not) then i could see a place for a 4gb 2g wifi iphone. work that click wheel like these teens work the number pad, hey it would be a new "thing". hey you could make the ipod nano screen with a click go to dialer...hmmm now that would be sweet.
what market are they going after with this anyway, if data plans stay as is??
So you are expecting a $100 difference in cost to you for a capacity increase that MIGHT cost Apple $2.50? This is the problem I see with this 4gb iPhone argument, it just isn't going to impact price in a significant way and in any event you are shooting at a moving target when it comes to flash prices.
The only possible way I could see this happening is if AT&T and Apple wanted a cheap device for the pay as you go market that doesn't seriously encroach on iPhone's feature set. The rumored Nano could be a sign of such a device. That is a cell phone targetted at an entirely different marketing program. Nano would then be a device specifically engineered not to appeal to current iPhone buyers, probably by supporting 2 G only.
In any event the number one issue is they falling price of flash in general. In the short term I expect Apple will simply bump up baseline capacity in the iPhone's, it just doesn't make sense to go backwards in most cases. The exception here is if Apple has an improved iPhone in the wings and this 4GB would then become the low end iPhone. For a new high end iPhone it should be possible for Apple to cram a lot of stuff into a new iPhone considering some of the technologybreleases I've seen. This new iPhone would be easily differentiated from the current model. Such a phone could be improved all around from processor core to camera to wifi hardware and everything else. This would make the 4GB iPhone the poo' mans iPhone.
Dave
When Apple released the iPhone the 4GB version cost for Apple was $20 less than the 8GB but they still charged $100 for the upgrade. I agree it may not cost them much but for the person who is going to buy an iPhone the $100 is half $200 regardless of the total cost. In my opinion, they are better off lowering the price of the 8GB when they release the 32GB version instead of releasing a 4GB iPhone.
That's why I RESPECTFULLY disagree. But even if you don't use the space on a regular basis it's nice to have on a ten hour flight, or when you need a portable hard drive in a jam, or whatever.
And back to an earlier point made above: This does virtually NOTHING for total cost of ownership. $100 off a two year contract - what's the point?
I admit I'm surprised at how many people disagree with me. But I still think a size as small as 4GB would be more of a deterrent than a boon.
Now, yes it might be but 6 months ago prices were not that low. When I bought my iPhone my local Apple store ran out of 8GB iPhones so I bought the 16GB instead.
Why do you want that $3000 bonus? it is nothing compared to what you make in your life time!!
$100 might not sound much but you can pay your first month cell phone bill with it, buy two iPods shuffle, fill your car with gas at least twice, or .... etc. For some people $100 is much (even for some of those who bought iPhones). I know many students in our university campus who have iPhones and take loans to pay for tuition and books.
I am not disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing with you. I was just stating my point of view, a lower price iPhone will increase sales.
Since no one bought the 4GB phone when it was available, Apple dropped it. People also use the iPhone for VIDEO, which does occupy a lot of space. You are right, not everyone buys an iPhone for music, they use it for music, video, photos, internet, mail, and a phone. The 4GB phone (actually formatted to 3.7 GB) was a joke. It is great being able to watch part of a movie or a TV show while waiting somewhere...airport, doctor's office, auto mechanic. Makes the time go by quickly. I have a selection of music, video, photos, and apps and my 16 GB phone is full.
The reason no one bought the 4GB iPhone because they were sold for $499 and the 8GB were sold for $599. If I am going to shell out $500 why not get double the capacity for %20 more?! this is how people think when they want to buy something (initial cost is the most important factor). The 3G and 1st gen iPhone cost almost the same over the 2 years contract but 3G sold in 3 months what the 1st generation sold in a year (and it was not because 3G or GPS. It was because of the lower initial buying cost).
How long was I asleep? Is it still 2007?
The iPhone nano won't have 8GB, so you weren't asleep.
I'm glad someone said something so I wouldn't have to.
If anything all the complaints about how expensive the iPhone data plan is makes you realize that the iPhone is exposing smartphones to people that have never looked into them and their offered plans before, which can only make smartphone marketshare rise not flatten out.
Exactly. People who were content with "just a phone" have discovered that can use and enjoy an iPhone, but they want to keep paying "just a phone" rates.
Before the iPhone, the only people dealing with smart phones kind of knew what they were getting into and were willing to pony up for the functionality.
... I was just stating my point of view, a lower price iPhone will increase sales....
You're right, I admit it. When people desperately want to buy something they can't afford they'll take almost anything as justification for the purchase.
I doubt Apple saves much money by dropping in a 4GB chip rather than an 8GB chip, which is the very crux of the problem with asking for an 4GB unit. Do you know how little flash memory costs these days? For example, a high quality SDHC 8GB card costs only $6 more than a 4GB card, same brand, same high speed. I wouldn't be surprised to see 8GB cards as cereal box prizes later this year.
And yet the 16GB model is $100 more expensive on AT&T. 4GB would allow Apple to release an iPhone at a lower price point whilst still retaining the perceived (not actual) value of the 8GB model.
Then why did they waste their money on an iPhone if they are only using it as a phone? They are really missing out on the iPhone's full capability.
Some people like using a phone with a big screen and nice UI. Why should they be obliged to use every feature on a device?
and a new 32GB iPhone 3G for 16GB price starting in February 2009.
Next generation iPhone in June/July 2009 with 16GB and 32GB
There is no way Apple is coming with a 4 GB nano. This would blow when it comes to the Apple App store.
How is this silly meme still alive? The typical app is about the size of a typical music file. It takes a lot of apps to make a noticeable dent in usable space.
How is this silly meme still alive? The typical app is about the size of a typical music file. It takes a lot of apps to make a noticeable dent in usable space.
Maybe, but if you use your phone like I assume most folks do-- with a lot of music, a fair number of pictures, and some video, that plus apps chews through 4 GB pretty quick.
Not unusable, by any means, but I can't remember a time Apple offered any machine with less stock memory than the lowest current model, just to hit a price point.
Make the existing middle the new low end when you add a new model, and drop the old lower end completely, yes. Add a new model at the same price as the old model and drop the price on the old model, yes.
But not go back a generation, spec wise, to create a new low end.
Maybe, but if you use your phone like I assume most folks do-- with a lot of music, a fair number of pictures, and some video, that plus apps chews through 4 GB pretty quick.
...
But not go back a generation, spec wise, to create a new low end.
I agree, but my point with the previous post was that the notion that iPhone apps taking a lot of space just doesn't hold. There are a few big ones, but most of them that I've seen are very tiny.
I agree, but my point with the previous post was that the notion that iPhone apps taking a lot of space just doesn't hold. There are a few big ones, but most of them that I've seen are very tiny.
Heh. As I was typing that I was vaguely thinking "You're rebutting a point he wasn't making" but then I saw a squirrel and forgot.