Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.
Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.
And again, support your claims.
I am a member and I am developer and I don't want anything released until I am ready to do so. And until I do so, nobody benefits from the crap you throw.
I am a member and I am developer and I don't want anything released until I am ready to do so. And until I do so, nobody benefits from the crap you throw.
So the developer of Scrivener is throwing crap because he vocalizes his frustration. I'm glad that you're happy with your situation but every developer has their wants and needs. If some are articulating that they aren't happy with the current ADC program that doesn't make their statement crap but it also doesn't mean that Apple's program is faulty. It's merely their opinion and they can choose to keep their $500 or send it to Apple. Since this is a forum discussion of said topic is warranted and dare I say encouraged there's really little reason for you to levy judgment but you may do what you want as you clearly seem to think the world revolves around your needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AI
Apple this week has tapped a handful of choice developers to test third party application support against a new build of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard in a sign the software is nearing a stage of refinement and optimization.
Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.
So the developer of Scrivener is throwing crap because he vocalizes his frustration. I'm glad that you're happy with your situation but every developer has their wants and needs. If some are articulating that they aren't happy with the current ADC program that doesn't make their statement crap but it also doesn't mean that Apple's program is faulty. It's merely their opinion and they can choose to keep their $500 or send it to Apple. Since this is a forum discussion of said topic is warranted and dare I say encouraged there's really little reason for you to levy judgment but you may do what you want as you clearly seem to think the world revolves around your needs.
Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.
Who said his statement was crap?
You are the one that is posting claims that you can not support. Until you do, it's crap.
So that's how Micro$oft copies Apple. I always wondered how they see it first. This is how.
I don't think it was the beta they were referencing for Vista as the final versions of 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 came out during it's overdue period.
I think the area of beta testing is one area where Microsoft does a better job of developer relations. Microsoft even give downloadable public betas and their OS costs much more.
I guess if the OS is at a stage where low level drivers and system components need tested then I think it's right that they sort them out first. 3rd party developers don't need to test the system and probably shouldn't until the core OS is stable.
The ADC membership doesn't sound like it's worth it but early beta testing needs trusted developers, not just anyone with $500 a year to spend.
I can never remember the stages of an OS build but I don't think testing builds were released more than 4 months before the final. Obviously the developments will depend on the problems that arise but releases this early would indicate WWDC release at the latest if developments go without a hitch.
You can call it whining or not. You can make excuses for Apple but frankly these guy and gal's livelyhood depends on efficiency and the least Apple could do is deliver seeds on time and make sure that they aren't behind WWDC patrons in access to materials.
You shouldn't see a seed on the torrent sites before you ADC account no?
I read it now. Well, I understand that some people will complain. But, still, considering the way most software is developed, I do think it is a bit of whining.
I'd be willing to bet that even if they got the software at the same time, their development schedule would be about the same.
Even the biggest developers, the ones who do get the betas first, lag in their releases for months after the OS come out.
We all know this!
I hate to say it, but many developers are like kids who just have to sleep overnight outside the Nintendo store to get the latest model a few days before everyone else.
I'm not even so sure that many of these small developers have the competence to deal with really buggy betas, which is what these select few big developers are given before everyone else.
Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.
Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.
I'd like to see evidence that it would make a difference. We have none of that.
MS makes betas available to just about everyone, but software development doesn't seem to benefit. New programs, or upgrades, still take about the same time to come out after the OS is released as on the Mac platform. And they're just as buggy.
It just seems that Apple would rather clean things up more before having a more general release.
What's wrong with that? Some developers feel left out? Their feelings are hurt?
If they received these really buggy releases, they would be complaining about the state of beta releases from Apple instead.
Those who complain will always find something to complain about.
We see that here, with the same people over and again complaining about everything they can find to complain about.
10 years ago ADC was worth every penny and the thought of NOT renewing your membership every year was unthinkable. Nowadays the responses you get from DTS typically consist of either links to public documentation you've already read, or statements of defeat such as "I can't tell you that." Since not even ADC members get access to GM releases before the consumer anymore, I've come to see it as rather pointless. If anyone at Apple has an answer they can share without getting in trouble, they'll usually do it on one of the completely free mailing lists anyone can join. Just beware that this open door policy lets address harvesters in as well, so it's best to sign up with a throwaway address you don't use for anything else.
Also, like other Mac developers, I?m annoyed that we weren?t given access to the final version of Leopard before it was released. While I?m fairly confident both Geekbench and Wiinote will work with the final version of Leopard, I?ve only been able to test them with the last pre-release version of Leopard. It?s entirely possible that either one (or both) will not work with the final version of Leopard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
I don't think it was the beta they were referencing for Vista as the final versions of 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 came out during it's overdue period.
I think the area of beta testing is one area where Microsoft does a better job of developer relations. Microsoft even give downloadable public betas and their OS costs much more.
I guess if the OS is at a stage where low level drivers and system components need tested then I think it's right that they sort them out first. 3rd party developers don't need to test the system and probably shouldn't until the core OS is stable.
The ADC membership doesn't sound like it's worth it but early beta testing needs trusted developers, not just anyone with $500 a year to spend.
I can never remember the stages of an OS build but I don't think testing builds were released more than 4 months before the final. Obviously the developments will depend on the problems that arise but releases this early would indicate WWDC release at the latest if developments go without a hitch.
Understood but what's it going to take financially to get some exemplary support? Should ADC Select be $999 a year $1999 a year?
While I will acknowledge that Apple has hit more triple here with ADC than striking out the question is "is there room for improvement?"
Large "trusted" developer are nice but when I look at the apps I rely on they come from rather small developers. Look at the good will Microsoft is getting with the public beta of Windows 7.
Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.
It could also be that Apple gives the developers they think have software that will be most affected by the changes Apple made in the beta the betas first, in addition to them being some of the biggest.
Do you think Apple is simply being prejudiced here? That makes no sense, as it would hurt Apple too.
I Look at the good will Microsoft is getting with the public beta of Windows 7.
Look at the goodwill they got from the public betas of Vista as well.
Did that help in any way?
No, it did not.
It still took months before drivers were available. It took months before games were as playable as they were on XP. It took months before many programs worked properly, or at all.
Even so, It needed an SP1 to fix many serious problems.
So other than feelings of how nice it was, what did it actually accomplish?
That's the real question.
Now, if Apple is not being helpful with developer questions, that's another problem entirely, and should be addressed as such.
It could also be that Apple gives the developers they think have software that will be most affected by the changes Apple made in the beta the betas first, in addition to them being some of the biggest.
Do you think Apple is simply being prejudiced here? That makes no sense, as it would hurt Apple too.
No I don't think Apple's being pernicious here, more just the collateral damage that comes from their secrecy. Leopard's shipment was fast it was like GM is declared boxed and shipped. I think it took some devs by surprise
However if Apple ships Snow Leopard with fewer bugs then the outcry may not be so severe. I read that Will Shipley had to work around some gotchas in Leopard for Delicious Library so any maturity in SL that prevents some of these gotchas will go a long way.
No I don't think Apple's being pernicious here, more just the collateral damage that comes from their secrecy. Leopard's shipment was fast it was like GM is declared boxed and shipped. I think it took some devs by surprise
However if Apple ships Snow Leopard with fewer bugs then the outcry may not be so severe. I read that Will Shipley had to work around some gotchas in Leopard for Delicious Library so any maturity in SL that prevents some of these gotchas will go a long way.
It was 10.4 that took everyone by surprise. That shipped months early, with lots of problems. From hindsight, it was obvious why that happened, but when it first did, it blindsided everyone, including people I know in Apple who usually know these things.
Apple have said they want snow leopard to be faster and more stable than leopard. If I wanted stability I would want to properly fix the bugs reported by each stage of testers before moving onto the next.
Hopefully, when developers get hold of their copies, there will be stories from the developers of how this is the best advanced release ever and thank you apple for saving us the hassle of a buggy release.
The biggest unknown IMO is QuickTime, specifically QuickTime X. Apps are very dependent on QuickTime and I'd expect some issues to arise due to the major revision. TBD I suppose.
Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.
Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.
$500 doesn't give you the level of interactivity with 10.6 that Premiere does, nor should it.
Being as I used to maintain and with two other members pick the actual companies who received Pre-release builds of Openstep/WebObjects/EOF, etc., you need to realize that a complete history of interaction is always recorded into internal databases [Sybase and Oracle, at that time] as to which Developing Houses, Developers and Corporations actually test and interact with the internal OS teams.
You target the most active contributors first and once you are in release candidate stages, you then send it out to a broad tier to chase down and open up any showstoppers. If it is Golden Master/Release Final ready you can run another two week cycle to an even broader audience [especially outside the core markets] to target any other hidden errors.
If no further showstoppers are there, you stamp and release with any later discovered workarounds being published in release notes.
Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?
It's unlikely there's "One more thing." You can't play games like that with software because testing really is important. I'll wager that everything that will be in there already is, with the possible exception of cosmetic changes such as icons which don't require code changes.
It's unlikely there's "One more thing." You can't play games like that with software because testing really is important. I'll wager that everything that will be in there already is, with the possible exception of cosmetic changes such as icons which don't require code changes.
Yes...much like Aqua was "sprung" on us as the last minute I think this "Marble" UI will be the thing that becomes the surprise.
Oh and of course the debug code will be removed making Snow Leopard "snappy"
Comments
Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.
Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.
And again, support your claims.
I am a member and I am developer and I don't want anything released until I am ready to do so. And until I do so, nobody benefits from the crap you throw.
Read this... Then you'll get my punch line...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...creensavermode
... And mine keeps asking for a password upon awake...
And again, support your claims.
I am a member and I am developer and I don't want anything released until I am ready to do so. And until I do so, nobody benefits from the crap you throw.
So the developer of Scrivener is throwing crap because he vocalizes his frustration. I'm glad that you're happy with your situation but every developer has their wants and needs. If some are articulating that they aren't happy with the current ADC program that doesn't make their statement crap but it also doesn't mean that Apple's program is faulty. It's merely their opinion and they can choose to keep their $500 or send it to Apple. Since this is a forum discussion of said topic is warranted and dare I say encouraged there's really little reason for you to levy judgment but you may do what you want as you clearly seem to think the world revolves around your needs.
Apple this week has tapped a handful of choice developers to test third party application support against a new build of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard in a sign the software is nearing a stage of refinement and optimization.
Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.
So the developer of Scrivener is throwing crap because he vocalizes his frustration. I'm glad that you're happy with your situation but every developer has their wants and needs. If some are articulating that they aren't happy with the current ADC program that doesn't make their statement crap but it also doesn't mean that Apple's program is faulty. It's merely their opinion and they can choose to keep their $500 or send it to Apple. Since this is a forum discussion of said topic is warranted and dare I say encouraged there's really little reason for you to levy judgment but you may do what you want as you clearly seem to think the world revolves around your needs.
Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.
Who said his statement was crap?
You are the one that is posting claims that you can not support. Until you do, it's crap.
So that's how Micro$oft copies Apple. I always wondered how they see it first. This is how.
I don't think it was the beta they were referencing for Vista as the final versions of 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 came out during it's overdue period.
I think the area of beta testing is one area where Microsoft does a better job of developer relations. Microsoft even give downloadable public betas and their OS costs much more.
I guess if the OS is at a stage where low level drivers and system components need tested then I think it's right that they sort them out first. 3rd party developers don't need to test the system and probably shouldn't until the core OS is stable.
The ADC membership doesn't sound like it's worth it but early beta testing needs trusted developers, not just anyone with $500 a year to spend.
I can never remember the stages of an OS build but I don't think testing builds were released more than 4 months before the final. Obviously the developments will depend on the problems that arise but releases this early would indicate WWDC release at the latest if developments go without a hitch.
Still can't find it ..just searched my RSS Google Reader feeds. I'll try my NetNewsWire later at home.
Here's one that surprised me.
http://lit-n-lat.blogspot.com/2007/0...ur-friend.html
That stemmed from
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/06/12/devel...xclusive-beta/
You can call it whining or not. You can make excuses for Apple but frankly these guy and gal's livelyhood depends on efficiency and the least Apple could do is deliver seeds on time and make sure that they aren't behind WWDC patrons in access to materials.
You shouldn't see a seed on the torrent sites before you ADC account no?
I read it now. Well, I understand that some people will complain. But, still, considering the way most software is developed, I do think it is a bit of whining.
I'd be willing to bet that even if they got the software at the same time, their development schedule would be about the same.
Even the biggest developers, the ones who do get the betas first, lag in their releases for months after the OS come out.
We all know this!
I hate to say it, but many developers are like kids who just have to sleep overnight outside the Nintendo store to get the latest model a few days before everyone else.
I'm not even so sure that many of these small developers have the competence to deal with really buggy betas, which is what these select few big developers are given before everyone else.
Why the pushback? He develops an outstanding product that is Mac only. While it happened over two years ago it dovetails with what the developer that I just came across mirrored. They're tired of not getting the seeds and hearing about some large developers getting the seeds.
Feel free to grab your Apple pom poms but constructive criticism of Apple's Developer Program beneficial to us all since we Mac users enjoy the fruits of the developer's labor.
I'd like to see evidence that it would make a difference. We have none of that.
MS makes betas available to just about everyone, but software development doesn't seem to benefit. New programs, or upgrades, still take about the same time to come out after the OS is released as on the Mac platform. And they're just as buggy.
It just seems that Apple would rather clean things up more before having a more general release.
What's wrong with that? Some developers feel left out? Their feelings are hurt?
If they received these really buggy releases, they would be complaining about the state of beta releases from Apple instead.
Those who complain will always find something to complain about.
We see that here, with the same people over and again complaining about everything they can find to complain about.
Who said his statement was crap?
You are the one that is posting claims that you can not support. Until you do, it's crap.
It is what you say it is.
http://www.afp548.com/polls/index.ph...0928930&aid=-1
10 years ago ADC was worth every penny and the thought of NOT renewing your membership every year was unthinkable. Nowadays the responses you get from DTS typically consist of either links to public documentation you've already read, or statements of defeat such as "I can't tell you that." Since not even ADC members get access to GM releases before the consumer anymore, I've come to see it as rather pointless. If anyone at Apple has an answer they can share without getting in trouble, they'll usually do it on one of the completely free mailing lists anyone can join. Just beware that this open door policy lets address harvesters in as well, so it's best to sign up with a throwaway address you don't use for anything else.
Salient point
http://www.primatelabs.ca/blog/2007/10/adc-select/
Also, like other Mac developers, I?m annoyed that we weren?t given access to the final version of Leopard before it was released. While I?m fairly confident both Geekbench and Wiinote will work with the final version of Leopard, I?ve only been able to test them with the last pre-release version of Leopard. It?s entirely possible that either one (or both) will not work with the final version of Leopard.
I don't think it was the beta they were referencing for Vista as the final versions of 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 came out during it's overdue period.
I think the area of beta testing is one area where Microsoft does a better job of developer relations. Microsoft even give downloadable public betas and their OS costs much more.
I guess if the OS is at a stage where low level drivers and system components need tested then I think it's right that they sort them out first. 3rd party developers don't need to test the system and probably shouldn't until the core OS is stable.
The ADC membership doesn't sound like it's worth it but early beta testing needs trusted developers, not just anyone with $500 a year to spend.
I can never remember the stages of an OS build but I don't think testing builds were released more than 4 months before the final. Obviously the developments will depend on the problems that arise but releases this early would indicate WWDC release at the latest if developments go without a hitch.
Understood but what's it going to take financially to get some exemplary support? Should ADC Select be $999 a year $1999 a year?
While I will acknowledge that Apple has hit more triple here with ADC than striking out the question is "is there room for improvement?"
Large "trusted" developer are nice but when I look at the apps I rely on they come from rather small developers. Look at the good will Microsoft is getting with the public beta of Windows 7.
Some developers will be miffed by the highlighted portion others won't. Though I can empathize with the developers that want more for their money.
It could also be that Apple gives the developers they think have software that will be most affected by the changes Apple made in the beta the betas first, in addition to them being some of the biggest.
Do you think Apple is simply being prejudiced here? That makes no sense, as it would hurt Apple too.
I Look at the good will Microsoft is getting with the public beta of Windows 7.
Look at the goodwill they got from the public betas of Vista as well.
Did that help in any way?
No, it did not.
It still took months before drivers were available. It took months before games were as playable as they were on XP. It took months before many programs worked properly, or at all.
Even so, It needed an SP1 to fix many serious problems.
So other than feelings of how nice it was, what did it actually accomplish?
That's the real question.
Now, if Apple is not being helpful with developer questions, that's another problem entirely, and should be addressed as such.
It could also be that Apple gives the developers they think have software that will be most affected by the changes Apple made in the beta the betas first, in addition to them being some of the biggest.
Do you think Apple is simply being prejudiced here? That makes no sense, as it would hurt Apple too.
No I don't think Apple's being pernicious here, more just the collateral damage that comes from their secrecy. Leopard's shipment was fast it was like GM is declared boxed and shipped. I think it took some devs by surprise
However if Apple ships Snow Leopard with fewer bugs then the outcry may not be so severe. I read that Will Shipley had to work around some gotchas in Leopard for Delicious Library so any maturity in SL that prevents some of these gotchas will go a long way.
No I don't think Apple's being pernicious here, more just the collateral damage that comes from their secrecy. Leopard's shipment was fast it was like GM is declared boxed and shipped. I think it took some devs by surprise
However if Apple ships Snow Leopard with fewer bugs then the outcry may not be so severe. I read that Will Shipley had to work around some gotchas in Leopard for Delicious Library so any maturity in SL that prevents some of these gotchas will go a long way.
It was 10.4 that took everyone by surprise. That shipped months early, with lots of problems. From hindsight, it was obvious why that happened, but when it first did, it blindsided everyone, including people I know in Apple who usually know these things.
Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?
Hopefully, when developers get hold of their copies, there will be stories from the developers of how this is the best advanced release ever and thank you apple for saving us the hassle of a buggy release.
I'm not sure anybody has the answer to this question (short of violating NDAs), but I'll ask it anyway:
Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?
Obviously, Apple would be the only one that could answer that.
Apple's pissing a lot of ADC select developers off. I agree with them. What's the point of paying $500 annually for early seeds to get your apps ready when Apple doesn't deliver. I've read at least one prominent developer wonder aloud if he would renew his ADC subscription based on the fact that WWDC attendees were getting seeds that Select members did not and that he shouldn't be punished for not laying out $1500 for WWDC.
Apple could learn a bit of diplomacy in dealing with their developers who have made OS X what it is today by leveraging Apple technology with enthusiasm.
$500 doesn't give you the level of interactivity with 10.6 that Premiere does, nor should it.
You target the most active contributors first and once you are in release candidate stages, you then send it out to a broad tier to chase down and open up any showstoppers. If it is Golden Master/Release Final ready you can run another two week cycle to an even broader audience [especially outside the core markets] to target any other hidden errors.
If no further showstoppers are there, you stamp and release with any later discovered workarounds being published in release notes.
Is the latest build of Snow Leopard feature complete, or are there still unimplemented features or "one more thing" that Apple has up its sleeve?
It's unlikely there's "One more thing." You can't play games like that with software because testing really is important. I'll wager that everything that will be in there already is, with the possible exception of cosmetic changes such as icons which don't require code changes.
It's unlikely there's "One more thing." You can't play games like that with software because testing really is important. I'll wager that everything that will be in there already is, with the possible exception of cosmetic changes such as icons which don't require code changes.
Yes...much like Aqua was "sprung" on us as the last minute I think this "Marble" UI will be the thing that becomes the surprise.
Oh and of course the debug code will be removed making Snow Leopard "snappy"