Eh? The other guy was right; the black keyboard is pretty jarring and ugly. They should have gone with white, in keeping with the whole everything-looks-like-an-iPhone theme. After all the standalone keyboards have white keys, as does the iPhone on-screen keyboard. More distinctive and Apple-y too.. black keys just make it look like another PC laptop.
The black keyboard was a good, albeit not pretty move. The silver or white keyboards have one problem: if the proper (low) amount of ambient light is present, then the light reflected from the keys is so close to the amount of light coming through the transparent parts of the keys to backlight the letters, that the keys turn so low contrast that they might as well be blank.
The black keys solve that problem: with plenty of light, the letters reflect, and stand out against a black background, and with little light the keys don't reflect it, creating proper contrast with the backlit letters.
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
You could have just said: "Apple next month will discontinue repair support for certain products that have been discontinued more than five years ago."
That's the entire content of this story.
Correct. Point?
I know it's shocking, but many Apple products produced 5-7+ years ago are still... perfectly usable. Not everyone needs an extra quarter-GHz every Christmas to be productive.
If you happen to own one of the affected Macs (I do), "Don't Panic!" (obligatory Douglas Adams reference intentional). There are enough old Macs being sold on eBay to provide parts well into the 22nd Century. And the third-party market will continue to support old machines as well.
Personally, I love my QS G4 (dual 1ghz), just installed Leopard (what can I say, I wanted the kinks out first before I upgraded) and feel like this Mac is good for another several years, barring unforeseen hardware failures.
My G4 is 7 years old this year and still runs like a top. Find me a 7 year old Windows machine that can even RUN Vista, much less has held together that long.
Now that's getting awfully fussy, a lot of that "gray" is within 5% of the white value. If a person has to use a fancy eyedropper tool to tell the difference, then for most intents and purposes in a casual discussion, it's close enough to white to be called white. If it were converted to MPEG, much of the keys could be clipped to white.
Though it's nice to know that tool is there, I never did try it before.
I was wondering if someone might pick up on this.
Yes, granted, you rarely do actually get "pure white" and a lot of on-screen colours that the vast majority of people would describe as "white" are strictly speaking very light grey according to a colour meter. The bit I meant to say, but didn't, was that even without the aid of the meter, the iPhone keys look decidedly light grey (definitely not white); the colour meter confirms.
just gonna bring it to Apple's attention... some AASPs responded since years now "no spare parts, no updates anymore for G4 machines"... \ reasonable though, everyone should move forward...
"Vintage"? Hmmmmm so does that mean that my Pismo is worth more now, like a "Vintage" Chevy. So I guess I'll wait a few weeks before I ask $1000+ on Ebay. ...just kidding she'll go with me to my grave.
Heh. I still use a Pismo as my primary computer. Almost 9 years old now. One of these days I'll buy one of those fancy new macs that are always coming out.
Anyway, I'm not surprised they're no longer supporting 7 year old computers. I really can't see spending the money to fix something that old.
I couldn't agree more but less then 3 years ago now my company that I own purchased over 30K worth of XServe G5's and a 7TB XServe RAID (actual invoice wired to Apple just for hardware), haven't had a single issue in that time (not even a failed HD). We put fibre channel switch, cards, etc now to be told this is obsolete makes me angry, now where can i get parts because this technology sure isn't old and 3Gb/s fibre is still faster then anything else (except for eSATA).
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
Well I guess if Pioneer can stop making LaserDisk players then nothing lasts forever!
It (G4) does seem rather short lived though- doesn't it?
it was short lived because the G4 was at least 2x the price of intel/amd chips and under half the speed, I dont care what apples "research" (aka marketing spin) showed. My first Mac was a G4, it was about ahlf the clockspeed, 2x the price and about half the preformance of encoding and such as a PC from 2 years before it. but I liked OSX so I kept with it till the core2duo macbooks supported 4GB ram and made the leap that way.
This is exactly why real IT professionals would never use Apple (as they opperate today) for backend mission critical opperations...we still get service on 4 year old servers, 6+ year old switches and such...theres no expiration date on these things so we use them till they die.
also, this is why apple needs model numbers, I read this as all xserves and raids, they need to be more clear...a numbering system like HP uses is far more clear, you know exactly which device and vintage you have and what they are talking about by just reading the model name. (e.g. proliant 580-g2 or 580-g5, both big servers, one is three chipset generations behind the newer one.)
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
The black keyboard was a good, albeit not pretty move. The silver or white keyboards have one problem: if the proper (low) amount of ambient light is present, then the light reflected from the keys is so close to the amount of light coming through the transparent parts of the keys to backlight the letters, that the keys turn so low contrast that they might as well be blank.
The black keys solve that problem: with plenty of light, the letters reflect, and stand out against a black background, and with little light the keys don't reflect it, creating proper contrast with the backlit letters.
My G4 is 7 years old this year and still runs like a top. Find me a 7 year old Windows machine that can even RUN Vista, much less has held together that long.
That's good thinking, and 7 years is excellent life for a personal computer. Things may change once Snow Leopard is released, IMHO.
Apple's policy of dropping support for hardware that's around five years old is not news, so I fail to see why any particular product crossing that threshold is news.
Regarding the keyboard color debate, the keys on the aluminum keyboard are significantly off-white. Just hold something that's actually white next to it.
Now that's getting awfully fussy, a lot of that "gray" is within 5% of the white value. If a person has to use a fancy eyedropper tool to tell the difference, then for most intents and purposes in a casual discussion, it's close enough to white to be called white.
Thank you! Seriously, it can't be white if it's not a perfect 255,255,255? It's clear it was meant to appear to be a realistic-looking white or off white. The grayer color at the bottom of the keys is just shading. Wow. I can't believe that needs explaining. And no: it definitely looks white; if it's gray then under normal backlighting it's so light a gray as to be practically white. Take a photo of an actual Apple keyboard and see if you get 0xFFFFFF.
I have an iPhone. I suppose your picture is a screenshot? What app did you use to produce that? This discussion started in response to a comment about the MBP's aesthetics, not the technical reasons for choosing a black keyboard, so the ambient light issue, while interesting, isn't relevant. The 'dirt' issue is obviously completely irrelevant to Apple, as their desktop keyboards still have white keys as does one of their laptops. Duh!
My point -- if you people could get over your pedantry for a second -- was that being consistent with the theme they've followed with the 2007 iMac + keyboard, in its clear iPhone-mimicry, which has been partially continued with the bezels of the new laptops and LED display, would have meant choosing a keyboard with lighter keys, and that this would have been more attractive and distinctive compared to other manufacturers' notebooks. I do not usually use my 2006 MBP under the kind of low light conditions in which silver keys would pose a problem; though in those rare instances when I have needed the backlighting, it has been more than sufficient for me. I grant that customer complaints about this may have trumped Apple's usual concern for looks. I'm just saying it is a step down in the looks department, even if there is possibly a good reason for it.
This is exactly why real IT professionals would never use Apple (as they opperate today) for backend mission critical opperations...we still get service on 4 year old servers, 6+ year old switches and such...theres no expiration date on these things so we use them till they die.
also, this is why apple needs model numbers, I read this as all xserves and raids, they need to be more clear...a numbering system like HP uses is far more clear, you know exactly which device and vintage you have and what they are talking about by just reading the model name. (e.g. proliant 580-g2 or 580-g5, both big servers, one is three chipset generations behind the newer one.)
I totally agree. Apple does use model numbers, of course, but they don't follow an easy to remember pattern, and you really never see them except written in small print on the box and on your receipt when you buy the thing. I don't even know if there's a way to find your model number without the box (seriously, is there a way? You'd think that would be in System Profiler somewhere but I haven't seen it)
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
Please go back and re-read the comments. Apple has a naming scheme that is differentiates between similar looking products of a particular family.
The original XServe RAID was introduced in 2003 and discontinued in 2004.
It was replaced with the XServe RAID (SFP) which was discontinued in 2007.
That was replaced with the XServe RAID (Early 2007) which, as you pointed out was discontinued last year.
The only product considered vintage is the original XServe RAID, as it was discontinued 5 years ago. The "SFP" model will still be eligible for service until 2012 and the "Early 2007" until 2013.
As far as the PowerBook G4 - There were actually 4 revisions of the Titanium PowerBook:
PowerBook G4
PowerBook G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
PowerBook G4 (DVI)
PowerBook G4 (1GHz/867MHz)
Only the first model is obsolete - however the "Gigabit" was discontinued April of 2002, so it's near the chopping block. The "DVI" will be obsolete by the end of the year, but the PowerBook G4 (1GHz/867MHz) will still be eligible for service in California until Sept 2010.
All of these models, as well as the very first revisions of the Aluminum 17" and 12", are considered vintage however (and the second revisions of the 17" and 12", as well as the first aluminum 15" will be vintage by April of this year)
http://support.apple.com/specs/ lists all products and their introduction date. It doesn't have the discontinue date, but just look for the date the next revision was introduced.
I totally agree. Apple does use model numbers, of course, but they don't follow an easy to remember pattern, and you really never see them except written in small print on the box and on your receipt when you buy the thing. I don't even know if there's a way to find your model number without the box (seriously, is there a way? You'd think that would be in System Profiler somewhere but I haven't seen it)
The part number (MA896LL/A) is used by marketing and sales. There is also the model identifier (MacBookPro3,1) that is used by engineering. The only thing that's important for the end user is the name (MacBook Pro (15-inch 2.4/2.2GHz))
Comments
Eh? The other guy was right; the black keyboard is pretty jarring and ugly. They should have gone with white, in keeping with the whole everything-looks-like-an-iPhone theme. After all the standalone keyboards have white keys, as does the iPhone on-screen keyboard. More distinctive and Apple-y too.. black keys just make it look like another PC laptop.
The black keyboard was a good, albeit not pretty move. The silver or white keyboards have one problem: if the proper (low) amount of ambient light is present, then the light reflected from the keys is so close to the amount of light coming through the transparent parts of the keys to backlight the letters, that the keys turn so low contrast that they might as well be blank.
The black keys solve that problem: with plenty of light, the letters reflect, and stand out against a black background, and with little light the keys don't reflect it, creating proper contrast with the backlit letters.
http://www.macworld.com/article/1321...8/02/raid.html
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
Wow... How alarming!
You could have just said: "Apple next month will discontinue repair support for certain products that have been discontinued more than five years ago."
That's the entire content of this story.
Correct. Point?
I know it's shocking, but many Apple products produced 5-7+ years ago are still... perfectly usable. Not everyone needs an extra quarter-GHz every Christmas to be productive.
Personally, I love my QS G4 (dual 1ghz), just installed Leopard (what can I say, I wanted the kinks out first before I upgraded) and feel like this Mac is good for another several years, barring unforeseen hardware failures.
My G4 is 7 years old this year and still runs like a top. Find me a 7 year old Windows machine that can even RUN Vista, much less has held together that long.
Now that's getting awfully fussy, a lot of that "gray" is within 5% of the white value. If a person has to use a fancy eyedropper tool to tell the difference, then for most intents and purposes in a casual discussion, it's close enough to white to be called white. If it were converted to MPEG, much of the keys could be clipped to white.
Though it's nice to know that tool is there, I never did try it before.
I was wondering if someone might pick up on this.
Yes, granted, you rarely do actually get "pure white" and a lot of on-screen colours that the vast majority of people would describe as "white" are strictly speaking very light grey according to a colour meter. The bit I meant to say, but didn't, was that even without the aid of the meter, the iPhone keys look decidedly light grey (definitely not white); the colour meter confirms.
"Vintage"? Hmmmmm so does that mean that my Pismo is worth more now, like a "Vintage" Chevy. So I guess I'll wait a few weeks before I ask $1000+ on Ebay. ...just kidding she'll go with me to my grave.
Heh. I still use a Pismo as my primary computer. Almost 9 years old now. One of these days I'll buy one of those fancy new macs that are always coming out.
Anyway, I'm not surprised they're no longer supporting 7 year old computers. I really can't see spending the money to fix something that old.
The XServe RAID was discontinued ONE YEAR AGO:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1321...8/02/raid.html
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
Well I guess if Pioneer can stop making LaserDisk players then nothing lasts forever!
It (G4) does seem rather short lived though- doesn't it?
it was short lived because the G4 was at least 2x the price of intel/amd chips and under half the speed, I dont care what apples "research" (aka marketing spin) showed. My first Mac was a G4, it was about ahlf the clockspeed, 2x the price and about half the preformance of encoding and such as a PC from 2 years before it. but I liked OSX so I kept with it till the core2duo macbooks supported 4GB ram and made the leap that way.
I will, Apple, I will. Just release a friggin' updated Mini!
also, this is why apple needs model numbers, I read this as all xserves and raids, they need to be more clear...a numbering system like HP uses is far more clear, you know exactly which device and vintage you have and what they are talking about by just reading the model name. (e.g. proliant 580-g2 or 580-g5, both big servers, one is three chipset generations behind the newer one.)
The XServe RAID was discontinued ONE YEAR AGO:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1321...8/02/raid.html
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
The black keyboard was a good, albeit not pretty move. The silver or white keyboards have one problem: if the proper (low) amount of ambient light is present, then the light reflected from the keys is so close to the amount of light coming through the transparent parts of the keys to backlight the letters, that the keys turn so low contrast that they might as well be blank.
The black keys solve that problem: with plenty of light, the letters reflect, and stand out against a black background, and with little light the keys don't reflect it, creating proper contrast with the backlit letters.
A black keyboard is all so Dell-ish!
...
My G4 is 7 years old this year and still runs like a top. Find me a 7 year old Windows machine that can even RUN Vista, much less has held together that long.
That's good thinking, and 7 years is excellent life for a personal computer. Things may change once Snow Leopard is released, IMHO.
iBooks aren't on the list? They're G4 also.
Since you don't own an iPhone and you had to look for a bad stock photo, the keys are actually light GRAY. The search bar is white for comparison.
Since you've never painted a house, you don't know that there are 874 different shades of "white."
Regarding the keyboard color debate, the keys on the aluminum keyboard are significantly off-white. Just hold something that's actually white next to it.
Now that's getting awfully fussy, a lot of that "gray" is within 5% of the white value. If a person has to use a fancy eyedropper tool to tell the difference, then for most intents and purposes in a casual discussion, it's close enough to white to be called white.
Thank you! Seriously, it can't be white if it's not a perfect 255,255,255? It's clear it was meant to appear to be a realistic-looking white or off white. The grayer color at the bottom of the keys is just shading. Wow. I can't believe that needs explaining. And no: it definitely looks white; if it's gray then under normal backlighting it's so light a gray as to be practically white. Take a photo of an actual Apple keyboard and see if you get 0xFFFFFF.
I have an iPhone. I suppose your picture is a screenshot? What app did you use to produce that? This discussion started in response to a comment about the MBP's aesthetics, not the technical reasons for choosing a black keyboard, so the ambient light issue, while interesting, isn't relevant. The 'dirt' issue is obviously completely irrelevant to Apple, as their desktop keyboards still have white keys as does one of their laptops. Duh!
My point -- if you people could get over your pedantry for a second -- was that being consistent with the theme they've followed with the 2007 iMac + keyboard, in its clear iPhone-mimicry, which has been partially continued with the bezels of the new laptops and LED display, would have meant choosing a keyboard with lighter keys, and that this would have been more attractive and distinctive compared to other manufacturers' notebooks. I do not usually use my 2006 MBP under the kind of low light conditions in which silver keys would pose a problem; though in those rare instances when I have needed the backlighting, it has been more than sufficient for me. I grant that customer complaints about this may have trumped Apple's usual concern for looks. I'm just saying it is a step down in the looks department, even if there is possibly a good reason for it.
This is exactly why real IT professionals would never use Apple (as they opperate today) for backend mission critical opperations...we still get service on 4 year old servers, 6+ year old switches and such...theres no expiration date on these things so we use them till they die.
also, this is why apple needs model numbers, I read this as all xserves and raids, they need to be more clear...a numbering system like HP uses is far more clear, you know exactly which device and vintage you have and what they are talking about by just reading the model name. (e.g. proliant 580-g2 or 580-g5, both big servers, one is three chipset generations behind the newer one.)
I totally agree. Apple does use model numbers, of course, but they don't follow an easy to remember pattern, and you really never see them except written in small print on the box and on your receipt when you buy the thing. I don't even know if there's a way to find your model number without the box (seriously, is there a way? You'd think that would be in System Profiler somewhere but I haven't seen it)
The XServe RAID was discontinued ONE YEAR AGO:
http://www.macworld.com/article/1321...8/02/raid.html
I think this is getting dangerous. While Apple may have INTRODUCED certain products many years ago, an XServe RAID is hardly what you'd call "obsolete" by now. Heck, by adding some SATA-to-PATA bridgeboards into each tray (less than $30/each) you could up the drive modules to 1.5TB each.
These things were for sale up until a year ago. If I had spent a five-digit dollar amount e.g. 18 months ago to be told now that I own a vintage product that's no longer supported, I think I'd be pretty darn mad.
And how some of my clients will take it, when I tell them they will not be able to fix their massive investment, which is used as backup storage server, should it break down, I'm not sure either.
Between original purchase, drive upgrades, and various repair parts, that unit cost them likely well over $15k by now, and there's several TB worth of backups on it. And now, if it breaks, the backups are lost. So they might be forced to fork over serious cash for what?
Please go back and re-read the comments. Apple has a naming scheme that is differentiates between similar looking products of a particular family.
The original XServe RAID was introduced in 2003 and discontinued in 2004.
It was replaced with the XServe RAID (SFP) which was discontinued in 2007.
That was replaced with the XServe RAID (Early 2007) which, as you pointed out was discontinued last year.
The only product considered vintage is the original XServe RAID, as it was discontinued 5 years ago. The "SFP" model will still be eligible for service until 2012 and the "Early 2007" until 2013.
As far as the PowerBook G4 - There were actually 4 revisions of the Titanium PowerBook:
PowerBook G4
PowerBook G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
PowerBook G4 (DVI)
PowerBook G4 (1GHz/867MHz)
Only the first model is obsolete - however the "Gigabit" was discontinued April of 2002, so it's near the chopping block. The "DVI" will be obsolete by the end of the year, but the PowerBook G4 (1GHz/867MHz) will still be eligible for service in California until Sept 2010.
All of these models, as well as the very first revisions of the Aluminum 17" and 12", are considered vintage however (and the second revisions of the 17" and 12", as well as the first aluminum 15" will be vintage by April of this year)
http://support.apple.com/specs/ lists all products and their introduction date. It doesn't have the discontinue date, but just look for the date the next revision was introduced.
I totally agree. Apple does use model numbers, of course, but they don't follow an easy to remember pattern, and you really never see them except written in small print on the box and on your receipt when you buy the thing. I don't even know if there's a way to find your model number without the box (seriously, is there a way? You'd think that would be in System Profiler somewhere but I haven't seen it)
The part number (MA896LL/A) is used by marketing and sales. There is also the model identifier (MacBookPro3,1) that is used by engineering. The only thing that's important for the end user is the name (MacBook Pro (15-inch 2.4/2.2GHz))
Easiest way to find the model name is to use the warranty assistant: https://selfsolve.apple.com/GetWarranty.do
Enter your serial number (open System Profiler so you can just copy the number from the Hardware tab) and you'll see your model name on the left.
Well I guess if Pioneer can stop making LaserDisk players then nothing lasts forever!
It (G4) does seem rather short lived though- doesn't it?
Who said you can't buy a LaserDisc player from Pioneer anymore???
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...layers/DVL-919
or from others...
http://www.google.com/products/catal...929#ps-sellers