Since "applications independent of the official App Store" means, 99.9% of the time, "pirated applications," and since I hope to sell an app or two of my own someday and get PAID for my efforts, I can't side with the EFF here.
I do want to see Apple loosen up its policies, though--and indeed they have been doing so.
(Note: I'm not saying Jailbreaking is mainly done for piracy--I think modding the UI is at least as big a reason, probably THE biggest, and I'm glad that jailbreaking is alive and well. I'm saying that if you made a list of the APPS people need to jailbreak to install, 99.9% of them will be pirated apps. With only a handful of original apps that Apple rejected. And yes, all of this is separate from the issue of carrier unlocking. I'm just talking apps.)
Your fears seem to be out of proportion to reality. The Apple store apps are encrypted and copy protected. I haven't really heard of jailbreaking being used for iPhone app piracy, and I haven't heard of people widely cracking the app copy protection.
A better one would be that BMW tells you look, use our shop and we guarantee the thing will run. Use any grease monkey who thinks they can trick out a beemer and you're on your own. And if we find someone used rogue parts to mod your baby and you bring it to us for scheduled service, we'll make it run to spec and toss the icky parts, duct tape, bailing wire and all. You have been warned. Since there's no ASE-style certification for anyone who writes a rogue app, it's hard to blame Apple for wanting to preserve the integrity of their product.
That argument seems a bit out of wack. Is there a similar certification program for writing Mac apps? How many Mac apps out there are responsible for tarnishing Apple's Mac platform because of uncertified programmers? How many of those users actually blame Apple for issues caused by the rogue apps?
Piracy - how? The Apple store apps were encrypted and copy protected. I haven't really heard of jailbreaking being used for piracy either, and I haven't heard of people cracking the copy protection. So your fears seem to be out of proportion to reality.
The App Store copy protection already cracked but only work on jailbroked iPhones. The protection can be removed from any app by a simple one click application called Crackulous that you install in your jailbroken iPhone. The you upload the app to P2P sharing websites. This has been going on for a while now.
Yes, on the one hand information wants to be free.
On the other hand, it also wants a working BT driver, a tolerable data rate, MP3 playback and a GPS that takes less than 10 minutes to get a fix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
What ever happened to the whiners... uh.. I mean "disgruntled" folks explaining how Android was going to whip Apple into submission and allow true freedom to do what they want on their phone? Why pick on Apple?
Is it possible that Android is turning out not to be the miracle-maker it was made out to be so those folks are going back to Apple and complain some more?
Yah I agree with you. I do feel they could still screen apps on their app store (it is theirs to do with what they want). I don't feel they should restrict what applications can run on an iphone though. I agree and disagree with both sides on this one.
I don't like how anyone can tell me what i can and can't do with something i OWN.
The hardware you may own but the software is licensed. The software owner retain all rights to the software. This is similar to buying a CD, you don't own the music.
If you don't like how a company does business, by all means.. take your money elsewhere. If enough people do that, most companies would listen.
I agree with this argument. This is how companies should learn, though people and their buying power. Remember the boycotts of certain products or companies due to their business practices? We should continue to do this!
As for me, I am taking my money else where, and not to Apple because of how I disagree with their practices. I also will tell others to do the same. That's how it works.
I choose to do things my way, not the Apple way. Why do I come to this site then? I get bored and its fun to say things now and then.
I'm an iPhone developer myself. I've made some good change from them. So I think I am qualified to say this...
A) I don't know what you mean by pirated apps. Most of the jail broken compatible apps are merely free apps. Supplied because there wasn't an easy way to make apps before.
Most people won't be jail breaking their phones. Nor will there be an online store to grab apps from. Most of the people out there won't have the knowledge to jail break nor will want to spend the time messing with trying to find the right app.
C) Jail breaking has been available since early on and it never really caught on. Now with the app store a lot of people don't have reasons to jail break.
Point is, your apps will still sell just as they would have before. If someone wanted a free pirated app they would have got it regardless even now. This won't change that.
Not sure what you mean in A. If I go to the torrent sites, I can find both the free and the non-free App Store apps there packaged together very nicely for downloading in bunches. Those DRM-removed versions of the apps will only work on jailbroken phones.
If the EFF position was victorious, you can bet it would become even easier to jailbreak. Jailbreaking software would be advertised and made available all over the place. And the easier it is to jailbreak, the more people will do it. A good number of those people will then just download the DRM-removed versions of the apps.
That argument seems a bit out of wack. Is there a similar certification program for writing Mac apps? How many Mac apps out there are responsible for tarnishing Apple's Mac platform because of uncertified programmers? How many of those users actually blame Apple for issues caused by the rogue apps?
Remember the iWork 09 trojan?
The problem with cell phones is that if someone developed a virus that calls 900 or overseas number then you will have to pay for it no matter what. However, if someone steals you Visa card number you will probably find out about it quickly and don't have to pay anything.
Since "applications independent of the official App Store" means, 99.9% of the time, "pirated applications," and since I hope to sell an app or two of my own someday and get PAID for my efforts, I can't side with the EFF here.
99% of non App Store apps on jailbroken phones are pirated? Don't be ridiculous. I am proudly jailbroken on three iPhones I own, and have jailbroken iPhones for several friends.
I don't jailbreak so that I can steal applications. I have plenty of applications from the generous jailbreak community that add functionality that Apple refuses to. I can copy and paste on my iPhone, I can send streaming video via Qik, I can take video captures with Cycorder, I can take pictures in burst mode with Snapture, and I can run whatever app I want in background mode. None of that is pirated software, and none of that is available on the App Store. On top of that, I have a much improved access to the device for backup and restore of apps (use rsync over wifi) and a better settings control.
I have paid for 50+ apps on the App Store, ranging from 99 cents to $19.99, and I resent you lumping all jailbreakers in with the kiddy crowd that won't pay for anything.
that said, I don't think Apple should waste time going after folks. Let it stand that if you jailbreak/unlock your phone, it has no more support from Apple. let folks take the risk if they dare. if someone goes up on the web and blantantly flaunts their jail breaking service, send them the old cease and desist but don't start up a massive campaign to hunt folks down. instead spend the time and money on legally providing the stuff that folks are going 'black market' to get. like video and mms. and find a way to 'adult' code the app store so those that want boobies can have them but the under 18 crowd wont' see it so your obscenity protection issue is covered (which would be required by all kinds of laws). and then let folks have at it.
Let's be clear here. Apple has NEVER made any noises about going after any iPhone user who jailbreaks their iPhone. This response to the EFF petition is not about going after anyone. All Apple is trying to do in its response is to stop a ruling that would change the legality of jailbreaking the phone.
This is analogous to how Apple has NEVER gone after any PC user who puts Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware. It's been possible for several years and people have reported doing it and Apple has done zilch about it.
jailbreaking is bullshit. The arguement that it would increase innovation is bullshit, it would only promote piracy.
I guess you jailbreaking supporters think apple should open up OS X to be used on any hardware....doing so just opens up the OS (Mac and iPhone) to the same problems MS has, ie having to support every conceivable hardware/software configuration possible which only leads to one thing...the inability to do so which leads to customer dissatisfaction.
The problem with cell phones is that if someone developed a virus that calls 900 or overseas number then you will have to pay for it no matter what. However, if someone steals you Visa card number you will probably find out about it quickly and don't have to pay anything.
Apple would also have to take a financial responsibility if such an app were to be passed in the App Store.
This is analogous to how Apple has NEVER gone after any PC user who puts Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware. It's been possible for several years and people have reported doing it and Apple has done zilch about it.
That's funny, because Apple used the opposite argument when they charged me for upgrading my iPod Touch.
Not really - but it is precisely because the firmware is a component of the finished product that Apple sold you that they believe they have to charge you the $10 per Sarbanes-Oxley.
SOX attempts to stop vendors from recording the full revenue from the sale of a product if the product is not complete at the time of sale. For iPhone, Apple is saying that iPhone is not complete as the functionality (per its firmware) will be enhanced from time to time over the 2-year lifespan of the product, so they only record 1/8 of the revenue. If the firmware was a separate component, Apple could've recorded the full revenue at time of sale.
By the way, for iPod touch, Apple is saying that it is being sold to you as is - no further functionality to be provided. So Apple records the full revenue.
Let me just add: I think this whole deferred revenue/SOX thing is just nuts.
Your fears seem to be out of proportion to reality. The Apple store apps are encrypted and copy protected. I haven't really heard of jailbreaking being used for iPhone app piracy, and I haven't heard of people widely cracking the app copy protection.
You need to visit John Gruber over at daringfireball.net. He's been writing about this over the past week. He has data on this from developers tracking web hits from their iPhone apps. Fairplay for the apps has already been broken.
Psystar is not your "PC user". It's a company whose economic model is to license something from someone else, change it in violation of the license, and then resell it.
jailbreaking is bullshit. The arguement that it would increase innovation is bullshit, it would only promote piracy.
I guess you jailbreaking supporters think apple should open up OS X to be used on any hardware....doing so just opens up the OS (Mac and iPhone) to the same problems MS has, ie having to support every conceivable hardware/software configuration possible which only leads to one thing...the inability to do so which leads to customer dissatisfaction.
I would call all of the "Features" that DistortedLoop pointed out to be very innovative and if I'd known I could do all these things I would have Jail Broke my phone in a heartbeat.
I have plenty of applications from the generous jailbreak community that add functionality that Apple refuses to. I can copy and paste on my iPhone, I can send streaming video via Qik, I can take video captures with Cycorder, I can take pictures in burst mode with Snapture, and I can run whatever app I want in background mode. None of that is pirated software, and none of that is available on the App Store. On top of that, I have a much improved access to the device for backup and restore of apps (use rsync over wifi) and a better settings control.
I'd actually purchase another iPhone if Apple got off their Ass and INNOVATED some of the above or allowed it on their POS phone.
The problem is that the jailbreaking community will complain to Apple for not letting them jailbreak their phone, then, if it is indeed allowed, complain to Apple for not providing the proper hardware for functionality for anything and everything under the sun.
99.2% of consumers who buy an iPhone want it for what it does now. If these jailbreakers convince perfectly normal, but non-tech-savvy people to install rogue software, it's not the jailbreakers but Apple who will hear it for the non-functionality of something that's really not Apple's fault. Moreover, jailbreaking allows phones to run unauthorized on networks and potentially garner services that everyone else pays for. If this was not at least to some extent a goal of jailbreaking, then these people would be perfectly happy jailbreaking an iPod Touch. It runs the same software, just lacks the baseband necessary for cellular access.
In reality, 98% of what I want to do with my phone is covered by Apple or apps from the app store. After reading enough of the Podcaster hype, and then it came out with 2.2, I thought "wow, this is so awesome, at last my phone will be complete." Yeah, now how much do I use it? Almost never. Cut and paste? Would be nice, but again, bet I would use three times a month. This is why jailbreaking will never catch on, no one wants the rest of their life consumed with keeping the carrot ahead of the horse.
Apple hasn't gone after hobbyists. The OSx86 Project is still alone and kicking with no legal trouble from Apple. Psystar is a company trying to get away with being an unofficial cloner.
The App Store copy protection already cracked but only work on jailbroked iPhones. The protection can be removed from any app by a simple one click application called Crackulous that you install in your jailbroken iPhone. The you upload the app to P2P sharing websites. This has been going on for a while now.
Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have known where to begin. Much appreciated. I'm going to give it a try right now.
Comments
Since "applications independent of the official App Store" means, 99.9% of the time, "pirated applications," and since I hope to sell an app or two of my own someday and get PAID for my efforts, I can't side with the EFF here.
I do want to see Apple loosen up its policies, though--and indeed they have been doing so.
(Note: I'm not saying Jailbreaking is mainly done for piracy--I think modding the UI is at least as big a reason, probably THE biggest, and I'm glad that jailbreaking is alive and well. I'm saying that if you made a list of the APPS people need to jailbreak to install, 99.9% of them will be pirated apps. With only a handful of original apps that Apple rejected. And yes, all of this is separate from the issue of carrier unlocking. I'm just talking apps.)
Your fears seem to be out of proportion to reality. The Apple store apps are encrypted and copy protected. I haven't really heard of jailbreaking being used for iPhone app piracy, and I haven't heard of people widely cracking the app copy protection.
A better one would be that BMW tells you look, use our shop and we guarantee the thing will run. Use any grease monkey who thinks they can trick out a beemer and you're on your own. And if we find someone used rogue parts to mod your baby and you bring it to us for scheduled service, we'll make it run to spec and toss the icky parts, duct tape, bailing wire and all. You have been warned. Since there's no ASE-style certification for anyone who writes a rogue app, it's hard to blame Apple for wanting to preserve the integrity of their product.
That argument seems a bit out of wack. Is there a similar certification program for writing Mac apps? How many Mac apps out there are responsible for tarnishing Apple's Mac platform because of uncertified programmers? How many of those users actually blame Apple for issues caused by the rogue apps?
Piracy - how? The Apple store apps were encrypted and copy protected. I haven't really heard of jailbreaking being used for piracy either, and I haven't heard of people cracking the copy protection. So your fears seem to be out of proportion to reality.
The App Store copy protection already cracked but only work on jailbroked iPhones. The protection can be removed from any app by a simple one click application called Crackulous that you install in your jailbroken iPhone. The you upload the app to P2P sharing websites. This has been going on for a while now.
Yes, on the one hand information wants to be free.
On the other hand, it also wants a working BT driver, a tolerable data rate, MP3 playback and a GPS that takes less than 10 minutes to get a fix.
What ever happened to the whiners... uh.. I mean "disgruntled" folks explaining how Android was going to whip Apple into submission and allow true freedom to do what they want on their phone? Why pick on Apple?
Is it possible that Android is turning out not to be the miracle-maker it was made out to be so those folks are going back to Apple and complain some more?
Yah I agree with you. I do feel they could still screen apps on their app store (it is theirs to do with what they want). I don't feel they should restrict what applications can run on an iphone though. I agree and disagree with both sides on this one.
I don't like how anyone can tell me what i can and can't do with something i OWN.
The hardware you may own but the software is licensed. The software owner retain all rights to the software. This is similar to buying a CD, you don't own the music.
If you don't like how a company does business, by all means.. take your money elsewhere. If enough people do that, most companies would listen.
I agree with this argument. This is how companies should learn, though people and their buying power. Remember the boycotts of certain products or companies due to their business practices? We should continue to do this!
As for me, I am taking my money else where, and not to Apple because of how I disagree with their practices. I also will tell others to do the same. That's how it works.
I choose to do things my way, not the Apple way. Why do I come to this site then? I get bored and its fun to say things now and then.
I'm an iPhone developer myself. I've made some good change from them. So I think I am qualified to say this...
A) I don't know what you mean by pirated apps. Most of the jail broken compatible apps are merely free apps. Supplied because there wasn't an easy way to make apps before.
C) Jail breaking has been available since early on and it never really caught on. Now with the app store a lot of people don't have reasons to jail break.
Point is, your apps will still sell just as they would have before. If someone wanted a free pirated app they would have got it regardless even now. This won't change that.
Not sure what you mean in A. If I go to the torrent sites, I can find both the free and the non-free App Store apps there packaged together very nicely for downloading in bunches. Those DRM-removed versions of the apps will only work on jailbroken phones.
If the EFF position was victorious, you can bet it would become even easier to jailbreak. Jailbreaking software would be advertised and made available all over the place. And the easier it is to jailbreak, the more people will do it. A good number of those people will then just download the DRM-removed versions of the apps.
That argument seems a bit out of wack. Is there a similar certification program for writing Mac apps? How many Mac apps out there are responsible for tarnishing Apple's Mac platform because of uncertified programmers? How many of those users actually blame Apple for issues caused by the rogue apps?
Remember the iWork 09 trojan?
The problem with cell phones is that if someone developed a virus that calls 900 or overseas number then you will have to pay for it no matter what. However, if someone steals you Visa card number you will probably find out about it quickly and don't have to pay anything.
Since "applications independent of the official App Store" means, 99.9% of the time, "pirated applications," and since I hope to sell an app or two of my own someday and get PAID for my efforts, I can't side with the EFF here.
99% of non App Store apps on jailbroken phones are pirated? Don't be ridiculous. I am proudly jailbroken on three iPhones I own, and have jailbroken iPhones for several friends.
I don't jailbreak so that I can steal applications. I have plenty of applications from the generous jailbreak community that add functionality that Apple refuses to. I can copy and paste on my iPhone, I can send streaming video via Qik, I can take video captures with Cycorder, I can take pictures in burst mode with Snapture, and I can run whatever app I want in background mode. None of that is pirated software, and none of that is available on the App Store. On top of that, I have a much improved access to the device for backup and restore of apps (use rsync over wifi) and a better settings control.
I have paid for 50+ apps on the App Store, ranging from 99 cents to $19.99, and I resent you lumping all jailbreakers in with the kiddy crowd that won't pay for anything.
that said, I don't think Apple should waste time going after folks. Let it stand that if you jailbreak/unlock your phone, it has no more support from Apple. let folks take the risk if they dare. if someone goes up on the web and blantantly flaunts their jail breaking service, send them the old cease and desist but don't start up a massive campaign to hunt folks down. instead spend the time and money on legally providing the stuff that folks are going 'black market' to get. like video and mms. and find a way to 'adult' code the app store so those that want boobies can have them but the under 18 crowd wont' see it so your obscenity protection issue is covered (which would be required by all kinds of laws). and then let folks have at it.
Let's be clear here. Apple has NEVER made any noises about going after any iPhone user who jailbreaks their iPhone. This response to the EFF petition is not about going after anyone. All Apple is trying to do in its response is to stop a ruling that would change the legality of jailbreaking the phone.
This is analogous to how Apple has NEVER gone after any PC user who puts Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware. It's been possible for several years and people have reported doing it and Apple has done zilch about it.
I guess you jailbreaking supporters think apple should open up OS X to be used on any hardware....doing so just opens up the OS (Mac and iPhone) to the same problems MS has, ie having to support every conceivable hardware/software configuration possible which only leads to one thing...the inability to do so which leads to customer dissatisfaction.
Remember the iWork 09 trojan?
The problem with cell phones is that if someone developed a virus that calls 900 or overseas number then you will have to pay for it no matter what. However, if someone steals you Visa card number you will probably find out about it quickly and don't have to pay anything.
Apple would also have to take a financial responsibility if such an app were to be passed in the App Store.
This is analogous to how Apple has NEVER gone after any PC user who puts Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware. It's been possible for several years and people have reported doing it and Apple has done zilch about it.
ever heard of psystar?
That's funny, because Apple used the opposite argument when they charged me for upgrading my iPod Touch.
Not really - but it is precisely because the firmware is a component of the finished product that Apple sold you that they believe they have to charge you the $10 per Sarbanes-Oxley.
SOX attempts to stop vendors from recording the full revenue from the sale of a product if the product is not complete at the time of sale. For iPhone, Apple is saying that iPhone is not complete as the functionality (per its firmware) will be enhanced from time to time over the 2-year lifespan of the product, so they only record 1/8 of the revenue. If the firmware was a separate component, Apple could've recorded the full revenue at time of sale.
By the way, for iPod touch, Apple is saying that it is being sold to you as is - no further functionality to be provided. So Apple records the full revenue.
Let me just add: I think this whole deferred revenue/SOX thing is just nuts.
Your fears seem to be out of proportion to reality. The Apple store apps are encrypted and copy protected. I haven't really heard of jailbreaking being used for iPhone app piracy, and I haven't heard of people widely cracking the app copy protection.
You need to visit John Gruber over at daringfireball.net. He's been writing about this over the past week. He has data on this from developers tracking web hits from their iPhone apps. Fairplay for the apps has already been broken.
ever heard of psystar?
Psystar is not your "PC user". It's a company whose economic model is to license something from someone else, change it in violation of the license, and then resell it.
The key word in the above sentence is "RESELL".
jailbreaking is bullshit. The arguement that it would increase innovation is bullshit, it would only promote piracy.
I guess you jailbreaking supporters think apple should open up OS X to be used on any hardware....doing so just opens up the OS (Mac and iPhone) to the same problems MS has, ie having to support every conceivable hardware/software configuration possible which only leads to one thing...the inability to do so which leads to customer dissatisfaction.
I would call all of the "Features" that DistortedLoop pointed out to be very innovative and if I'd known I could do all these things I would have Jail Broke my phone in a heartbeat.
I have plenty of applications from the generous jailbreak community that add functionality that Apple refuses to. I can copy and paste on my iPhone, I can send streaming video via Qik, I can take video captures with Cycorder, I can take pictures in burst mode with Snapture, and I can run whatever app I want in background mode. None of that is pirated software, and none of that is available on the App Store. On top of that, I have a much improved access to the device for backup and restore of apps (use rsync over wifi) and a better settings control.
I'd actually purchase another iPhone if Apple got off their Ass and INNOVATED some of the above or allowed it on their POS phone.
99.2% of consumers who buy an iPhone want it for what it does now. If these jailbreakers convince perfectly normal, but non-tech-savvy people to install rogue software, it's not the jailbreakers but Apple who will hear it for the non-functionality of something that's really not Apple's fault. Moreover, jailbreaking allows phones to run unauthorized on networks and potentially garner services that everyone else pays for. If this was not at least to some extent a goal of jailbreaking, then these people would be perfectly happy jailbreaking an iPod Touch. It runs the same software, just lacks the baseband necessary for cellular access.
In reality, 98% of what I want to do with my phone is covered by Apple or apps from the app store. After reading enough of the Podcaster hype, and then it came out with 2.2, I thought "wow, this is so awesome, at last my phone will be complete." Yeah, now how much do I use it? Almost never. Cut and paste? Would be nice, but again, bet I would use three times a month. This is why jailbreaking will never catch on, no one wants the rest of their life consumed with keeping the carrot ahead of the horse.
ever heard of psystar?
Apple hasn't gone after hobbyists. The OSx86 Project is still alone and kicking with no legal trouble from Apple. Psystar is a company trying to get away with being an unofficial cloner.
The App Store copy protection already cracked but only work on jailbroked iPhones. The protection can be removed from any app by a simple one click application called Crackulous that you install in your jailbroken iPhone. The you upload the app to P2P sharing websites. This has been going on for a while now.
Thanks for the info. I wouldn't have known where to begin. Much appreciated. I'm going to give it a try right now.