We've not always agreed on things but I couldn't agree more with what you've just said and the articulate way in which you said it.
In the debates raging here I can't tell you how many posters have fallen back on the "wait till Snow Leopard arrives" defense of these 'new' machines. I'm as hopeful as next guy that SL will bring meaningful improvements in everyday performance. But I'm a realist and I'm not going to expect magic code out of Apple.
I think there are a couple of things going on here. Number one; I'm convinced right now that Snow Leopard will improve performance on all Intel machines that are Core 2 or better. I'm not sure it there is reason to even discuss this. Number two; I'm convinced that people don't understand what OpenCL is capable of actually delivering to an app.
See I hear about SL and its ability to do all these wonderful things, which may very well be true, for apps written to take advantage of it. The problem is there are a number of apps that simply will not be rewritten to take advantage of GPU processing, either due to the expense involved, technical issues or the limited pay off.
There is nothing I would want more than to have my early 2008 MBP run faster with SL. I expect that it will and I'm hoping they fix video play back. Expecting everything I run to be faster is expecting a little to much in my opinion.
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Its not that hard to give the iMac and mini a meaningful improvement in performance NOW. The CPUs to do so exist now. Apple have chosen not to use them.
This is the frustration, the hardware is out there! I have to admit though the Mini pretty much got the upgrade I was expecting at the low end, even here I expected a faster processor at the high end. What is especially frustrating is that the prices on the required hardware has dropped considerably.
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Who's to blame, IBM?
Clearly Apple. Frankly I remember similar behavior during the last recession. The problem is this isn't exactly a recession, nor depression and as such is a unique environment. I just don't see people having the tolerance.
Dave. I had a PC owning friend that came over last night. We had a long chat (over a hour...!) about this recent update. To his credit, he didn't laugh at me or the update. Personally, I think he's more grown up than me...I would have laughed at him ) I told him that I didn't think I could see a way into Apple's recent desktop line up. He said Apple's prices were outrageous and lacking choice before and now they're basically off the deep end. Consumers will look and go...'no.' He couldn't understand the lack of vram on the mid-range 4870 card when many PC suppliers are charging the same or less price for the card with more vram. He couldn't understand the lack of high end gpu and the claim to be a workstation. His eyes are wide with disbelief at the lack of consumer tower 'i7' and the dearth of quad power in the iMac or the £1650 price tag just to get a low end 4870 gpu that any £500 PC tower could be configured with.
Yep something is screwed up at Apple. If nothing else they seemed to have completely abandoned the idea of midrange computer performance. The actual dollar amount isn't an issue but rather what you get for those dollars.
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However, he did say that I should stop looking at the horizon and just buy the quad tower. That I have a project to get on with and the power will be impressive (he bought an i7 2.66 overclocked 3.33 quad, with 6 gigs of ram and a 2 gig Radeon 4870x2 for £1850...) and that it's time to bite the bullet and open the wallet and pay (albeit with the taste of vommit in my mouth.) He also said to drop my dream of a 30 inch Apple monitor for £1100 and get a non-Apple 28 incher I saw for £262 and it comes with 3 year on site warranty.
If you are a business user of a Mac the purchase decision is a different thing than if you are a home buyer. In business the machine has to pay for itself. Considering many of the business that Macs are used in I don''t thin paying for them is an issue at all. Like any craftsman there is a certain relationship that one develops with a good tool and the cost of the tool isn't a negative if it stands out in its field.
Early in the last century craftsman would easily pay good money for something as simple as a chisel and not complain if it did what was expected of it. They knew it was part of the kit of tools that put food on the table.
The question you have to ask yourself is the Mac Pro the right chisel to put food on your table. If it is then don't worry about the price. If it isn't then you have to sit back and think a bit about how you are putting food on that table and the best tool to do that with. In the last century we saw an evolution in what tools a cabinet maker had available to him, some ended up being almost totally replaced by newer gadgets. Apple is currently opening the doors to newer gadgets with their current attitude and pricing scheme. The problem is they have opened the doors but there is nothing rushing in real fast to replace their tool.
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My friend also couldn't believe some of the apologist tripe on these boards by people who shall remain nameless for now.
I don't understand it either. I guess some are better at bending over than others.
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Hard choice. Yeah. I went on a rant. But in the current climate, people are careful with their money and want value for money. It's not easy to just cough up £2000 and hand it over. It's a tough decision when you're buying Apple because they are so obtuse. They are penny pinching with their specs to make money...they can't blame the consumer if they do the same. If SL was on PC hardware? I wouldn't buy Apple kit. Period.
Lemon Bon Bon.
For me it is a tough call. My first Mac was a Mac Plus, expensive as it was, until the use of that became a problem. I switched to DIY PC hardware with MS operating systems and for a while was OK, we are talking DOS and Windows 3.1 for starters here. After the issues with Windows 95 and Windows NT I switched to Linux. Linux is really nice and has improved vastly over the years but early last year I bought my first Laptop of any capability. It is my MBP.
This was a major change from the DIY hardware of my desktop machines and frankly just a bit on the expensive side. It is a machine that is only slightly more expensive than similar machines in the MS world. I did so to get support for iTunes, iPhone and yet have a Unix based system close at hand. Frankly I'm happy I did as the iPhone and Mac integration has worked out well for me. The problem is I'm not sure that is enough to keep me as a long term customer especially if new hardware is going to be priced so high for so little.
What is funny here is that the laptops are still reasonably priced machines for what you get. The line up of new desktop hardware though just doesn't set any hearts on fire. A big issue here is that i"m not using any of this hardware in a business activity at the moment so There is no offset of making money with the hardware and thus is nothing but an expense. The problem is I can get a lot of desktop PC for $1000 for personal usage. Slap Linux on it and add FireFox and the surfing experience is almost identical to the Mac.
Comments
We've not always agreed on things but I couldn't agree more with what you've just said and the articulate way in which you said it.
In the debates raging here I can't tell you how many posters have fallen back on the "wait till Snow Leopard arrives" defense of these 'new' machines. I'm as hopeful as next guy that SL will bring meaningful improvements in everyday performance. But I'm a realist and I'm not going to expect magic code out of Apple.
I think there are a couple of things going on here. Number one; I'm convinced right now that Snow Leopard will improve performance on all Intel machines that are Core 2 or better. I'm not sure it there is reason to even discuss this. Number two; I'm convinced that people don't understand what OpenCL is capable of actually delivering to an app.
See I hear about SL and its ability to do all these wonderful things, which may very well be true, for apps written to take advantage of it. The problem is there are a number of apps that simply will not be rewritten to take advantage of GPU processing, either due to the expense involved, technical issues or the limited pay off.
There is nothing I would want more than to have my early 2008 MBP run faster with SL. I expect that it will and I'm hoping they fix video play back. Expecting everything I run to be faster is expecting a little to much in my opinion.
Its not that hard to give the iMac and mini a meaningful improvement in performance NOW. The CPUs to do so exist now. Apple have chosen not to use them.
This is the frustration, the hardware is out there! I have to admit though the Mini pretty much got the upgrade I was expecting at the low end, even here I expected a faster processor at the high end. What is especially frustrating is that the prices on the required hardware has dropped considerably.
Who's to blame, IBM?
Clearly Apple. Frankly I remember similar behavior during the last recession. The problem is this isn't exactly a recession, nor depression and as such is a unique environment. I just don't see people having the tolerance.
Dave
............
Wizard.
Dave. I had a PC owning friend that came over last night. We had a long chat (over a hour...!) about this recent update. To his credit, he didn't laugh at me or the update. Personally, I think he's more grown up than me...I would have laughed at him
Yep something is screwed up at Apple. If nothing else they seemed to have completely abandoned the idea of midrange computer performance. The actual dollar amount isn't an issue but rather what you get for those dollars.
However, he did say that I should stop looking at the horizon and just buy the quad tower. That I have a project to get on with and the power will be impressive (he bought an i7 2.66 overclocked 3.33 quad, with 6 gigs of ram and a 2 gig Radeon 4870x2 for £1850...) and that it's time to bite the bullet and open the wallet and pay (albeit with the taste of vommit in my mouth.) He also said to drop my dream of a 30 inch Apple monitor for £1100 and get a non-Apple 28 incher I saw for £262 and it comes with 3 year on site warranty.
If you are a business user of a Mac the purchase decision is a different thing than if you are a home buyer. In business the machine has to pay for itself. Considering many of the business that Macs are used in I don''t thin paying for them is an issue at all. Like any craftsman there is a certain relationship that one develops with a good tool and the cost of the tool isn't a negative if it stands out in its field.
Early in the last century craftsman would easily pay good money for something as simple as a chisel and not complain if it did what was expected of it. They knew it was part of the kit of tools that put food on the table.
The question you have to ask yourself is the Mac Pro the right chisel to put food on your table. If it is then don't worry about the price. If it isn't then you have to sit back and think a bit about how you are putting food on that table and the best tool to do that with. In the last century we saw an evolution in what tools a cabinet maker had available to him, some ended up being almost totally replaced by newer gadgets. Apple is currently opening the doors to newer gadgets with their current attitude and pricing scheme. The problem is they have opened the doors but there is nothing rushing in real fast to replace their tool.
My friend also couldn't believe some of the apologist tripe on these boards by people who shall remain nameless for now.
I don't understand it either. I guess some are better at bending over than others.
Hard choice. Yeah. I went on a rant. But in the current climate, people are careful with their money and want value for money. It's not easy to just cough up £2000 and hand it over. It's a tough decision when you're buying Apple because they are so obtuse. They are penny pinching with their specs to make money...they can't blame the consumer if they do the same. If SL was on PC hardware? I wouldn't buy Apple kit. Period.
Lemon Bon Bon.
For me it is a tough call. My first Mac was a Mac Plus, expensive as it was, until the use of that became a problem. I switched to DIY PC hardware with MS operating systems and for a while was OK, we are talking DOS and Windows 3.1 for starters here. After the issues with Windows 95 and Windows NT I switched to Linux. Linux is really nice and has improved vastly over the years but early last year I bought my first Laptop of any capability. It is my MBP.
This was a major change from the DIY hardware of my desktop machines and frankly just a bit on the expensive side. It is a machine that is only slightly more expensive than similar machines in the MS world. I did so to get support for iTunes, iPhone and yet have a Unix based system close at hand. Frankly I'm happy I did as the iPhone and Mac integration has worked out well for me. The problem is I'm not sure that is enough to keep me as a long term customer especially if new hardware is going to be priced so high for so little.
What is funny here is that the laptops are still reasonably priced machines for what you get. The line up of new desktop hardware though just doesn't set any hearts on fire. A big issue here is that i"m not using any of this hardware in a business activity at the moment so There is no offset of making money with the hardware and thus is nothing but an expense. The problem is I can get a lot of desktop PC for $1000 for personal usage. Slap Linux on it and add FireFox and the surfing experience is almost identical to the Mac.
Dave