*We interrupt this MMS-versus-email argument to bring you this exclusive Shunnabunich post!*
I'm definitely excited about accessory makers finally being allowed to use the dock connector port. All those gamepads that people have been clamoring for will finally have their chance to shine. But more importantly, I hope it allows the platform to expand into other markets.
The scanners we use at the store I work at cost somewhere in the (shudder) thousands, from what I've heard, and run (shudder, shudder) Windows Mobile. What if you could buy a $260 (CAD) iPod touch and click it into a small, sleek laser-scanning cradle with a dock connector and a custom-written app (perhaps with a stylus attached via stretchy cord for those with beefy fingers)? It'd save tons of money (unless the scanner cradle manufacturer extorted thousands of dollars for their accessory), and I'd bet employees would enjoy using it more than they do Windows More-bile if the app developer spent more than thirty seconds on the UI.
*We now return you to our regularly scheduled MMS-versus-email argument, now in progress!*
Sorry, but I watched the presentation and it seemed to me that cut would work. Although Scott did choose to use "copy" for his examples.
Sure, cut will function. So will paste. But Scott chose copy not for nothing. Copy is efficient, flexible and rich in features in email application, where it isn't of relatively great demand. Copy is not at all that advanced in other applications, Safari for instance, where we'd want it to. That's what I was trying to say.
I'd bet more than 16% of the iPhone users would like to have flash. Where's that action?
I don't want Flash, at all. I like browsing without it, and it does not fit into the multi-touch paradigm either unless it is fully re-written. HTML 5 is just fine with me.
I admit, I exaggerated a bit having been upset by how Apple implemented cut 'n' paste operations.
Apple paid minimum price of additional tap and hold gesture necessary to bring up the blurb (smart container selector) in applications supporting double tap zoom feature. Further process of selecting text is perfectly universal amongst all programs on the system.
What was that price paid for? For customer satisfaction. The first version of Mobile Safari reserved too many gestures to fascinate the end user, which wants to have browser before everything else.
Still, I'm maintaining my point (being considerably weakened, sure) about the copy operation was better optimized in applications, which needed it less.
OR, you can DISABLE text messaging all together, THERE IS A WAY to restrict text messages of all sorts
so yeah, there is
go to a store, tell them to do it, and no I'm not some idiot who is assuming stuff, i could tell you the freakin' SOC code for the feature necessary as I've worked for AT&T
Great, I wish you'd been the sales person who told me, when I bought the iPhones, that it was impossible.
Or the sales rep on the phone a week later who told me the same thing.
Or the customer rep on the phone later that month who repeated it.
I can't imagine why they'd tell me it wasn't possible...
Quote:
now find something else to complain about.. I've never seen someone so irate over paying 5 bucks for something..
Great, send me $5 or I keep whining at you. Awwwww, why you getting irate?
I guess with the Dock connector support now, they can replace all of their handheld payment systems at the Apple Store with iPhones or iPod Touches - no more Windows Mobile!
I guess with the Dock connector support now, they can replace all of their handheld payment systems at the Apple Store with iPhones or iPod Touches - no more Windows Mobile!
Exactly! the iPod touch and iPhone have all the hardware necessary to work in an environment which requires them to be constantly connected, some exceptionally powerful software to enable creative and productive uses of that hardware, and the development tools needed to transform those devices into the best retail handhelds anywhere...with the right accessories. I really hope some of these companies (i.e. Symbol?) "get" what's possible here and race to take advantage of it.
*We interrupt this MMS-versus-email argument to bring you this exclusive Shunnabunich post!*
I'm definitely excited about accessory makers finally being allowed to use the dock connector port. All those gamepads that people have been clamoring for will finally have their chance to shine. But more importantly, I hope it allows the platform to expand into other markets.
The scanners we use at the store I work at cost somewhere in the (shudder) thousands, from what I've heard, and run (shudder, shudder) Windows Mobile. What if you could buy a $260 (CAD) iPod touch and click it into a small, sleek laser-scanning cradle with a dock connector and a custom-written app (perhaps with a stylus attached via stretchy cord for those with beefy fingers)? It'd save tons of money (unless the scanner cradle manufacturer extorted thousands of dollars for their accessory), and I'd bet employees would enjoy using it more than they do Windows More-bile if the app developer spent more than thirty seconds on the UI.
*We now return you to our regularly scheduled MMS-versus-email argument, now in progress!*
We'll have to see what Apple does here.
In their own stores, Apple uses Pocket PC devices with the proper software, and card scanners for mobile sales people. That's what was done when my wife and I went to buy our three phones.
Apple has stated that they are embarrassed to be using them. Hopefully, that means they are working on something themselves. If they come out with it for themselves, possibly, they may want to sell the total solution. But you never know. It may not be a priority right now.
There is at least one app out that works with the card verification companies, so that's a start.
Well, back from my overnight trip. What did I miss?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
You said that already.
Tsk, testy. \
Y'know, the Mel I remember would've taken the opportunity to say something humorous there, instead being snippy. You risk sounding embittered.
Who hurt you, Mel? Who hurt you?
Quote:
You don't know that. We only need 3,000 people to represent hundreds of millions, to an accuracy of +-3%.
Um... sure, if those 3,000 ppl had been scientifically-selected by good professional posters, so as to faithfully represent the full spectrum of iPhone users. Obviously, that wasn't the case here... the sample is self-selected, i.e. "a buncha ppl who happen to go to uber-geek site Ars." \
The equivalent in, say, a Presidential race, would be to do a poll of everyone who happens to drop by my pollster table at the country club. Oh, McCain's up by 30 points? Wow, you don't say. You get odd results when you don't try to duplicate the larger group in question and weight accordingly... that's just Stats 101.
Sure, you could try to argue that the self-selected sample at Ars might actually be pretty close to the iPhone user group as a whole, but that doesn't really work. How many fashionistas/status symbol victims really go to Ars, or even know what it is? How about business users? Teenage girls who have to have "the latest thing"? I'm sure they're just all over Ars Technica. Ars captures the uber-nerd segment of iPhone users pretty well, but not really anyone else.
And you get all this. It's a wonder that you made the argument.
The only other thing I would consider is that you could, I guess, pick at 'professional pollsters' and their methods, play up the flaws of them, and try to claim that they're so bad and polling in general is such 'voodoo science' that you might as well go by self-selection, since 'no one can really know anything'. But, somehow, I don't think we're going to see AP or Reuters or anyone legit replacing professional polls anytime soon with self-selected internet polls and claiming that they have equal validity. They'd probably be laughed at.
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If we took a poll here, I wouldn't be surprised if we had about the same numbers.
Sure, and it wouldn't prove anything beyond the likelihood that we have a lot of the same kind of ppl here who go to Ars. In fact, a fair number of ppl here like both sites. IIRC, I actually heard about Ars from AI, in fact.
Quote:
It makes perfect sense.
If you don't understand it...
Or... maybe it just doesn't make any sense.
Okay, I am being a bit cute. And it's possible that I'm also being hasty in my dismissal. But, it's hard to see a valid argument for the absolute ceiling of ppl in that Ars poll who wanted MMS, even if it were not their TOP pick for a new feature, to be set at 16%. Because said poll only allowed you to pick one response, and logically, ppl would tend to pick the feature they MOST wanted, not features they ALSO wanted, but could not list due to the limitations of said poll. If there's an alternate scenario, it seems like tortured logic to me, at best.
But, okay, let's pretend that, somehow, only 16% of the Ars respondees wanted MMS. I doubt it, but let's pretend. Guess what? That's still the third most-wanted new feature, according to the poll, and a close third at that.
Now, let's pretend that, somehow, Ars is actually a valid sample of all iPhone users. It almost certainly is not, but let's pretend. Under that, one in six iPhone users wanted MMS... that's 3 million users, and counting. Hardly an insignifcant group. I mean, Apple sure didn't seem to think so, eh?
Now, let's pretend that somehow, one in six users, and 3 million users and counting, isn't really a big deal, but that the noise they make is, and that Apple is actually the kind of company that would utterly cave in to the cries of a vocal minority (though, gosh, that sure doesn't seem to square with how good Apple is at ignoring user demands that don't jibe with Stevie J's design ideals, now does it?).
Guess what? IT DOESN'T MATTER. MMS is HERE for the iPhone, and it's going to get used LOTS, even if it is only by a minority of iPhone users (and I wouldn't automatically bet that it'll be a minority). Why should this be the cause of significant teeth-gnashing by anyone? Even kickhaha, uber-complainer, finally found out that he CAN opt out of messaging if he so likes.
I think the only thing that's really on the line here for the MMS-dislikers are some long-held cherished beliefs. For example, you argued pretty vehemently last time I was here that mobile email would, for sure, mostly replace MMS within two years. It would appear, from Apple's moves in the 3.0 software, that they don't see it that way (why bother to support something that's going to disappear very soon anyway? Especially considering that Apple's design ethic is that it does not believe in excess features).
It is more likely that Apple saw what I saw, and stated back then- MMS is extremely popular, and more than that, its' popularity has actually been RISING dramatically in the past couple of years, not declining (I posted the stats last time I was here). It's one thing to ignore a technology or feature that's popular but on a downswing, another thing entirely to try to stiff-arm a rising tide.
Is mobile email 'better'? Yeah, I agree that in some ways it is, but, it just doesn't matter. MMS is convenient, it's what ppl are used to, and sometimes, that's all you need to succeed. Inertia is powerful. The 'better' technology doesn't always win out... and I'm sure you can cite even more examples of that than I.
So, I think the 'two years' prediction is out the window now. Five years, ten years... you could make that bet, and I'd think you'd be right. And I'd probably put my money down right beside yours.
But, for now, it's an MMS world. And I'm happy that Apple recognized that reality.
I'm also happy that the iPhone has evolved in ways that I had hoped it would... my requests are getting picked off, one by one- 3G, landscape keyboard, MMS. Now we just need a better camera and video recording. And, of course, a better carrier than AT&T. Wouldn't be shocked if those things come to pass, sooner rather than later (though unfortunately the ATT exclusive is 'til mid-'010 now).
Well, back from my overnight trip. What did I miss?
Tsk, testy. \
Y'know, the Mel I remember would've taken the opportunity to say something humorous there, instead being snippy. You risk sounding embittered.
Who hurt you, Mel? Who hurt you?
Um... sure, if those 3,000 ppl had been scientifically-selected by good professional posters, so as to faithfully represent the full spectrum of iPhone users. Obviously, that wasn't the case here... the sample is self-selected, i.e. "a buncha ppl who happen to go to uber-geek site Ars." \
The equivalent in, say, a Presidential race, would be to do a poll of everyone at the country club. Oh, McCain's up by 30 points? Wow, you don't say. You get odd results when you don't try to duplicate the larger group in question and weight accordingly... that's just Stats 101.
Sure, you could try to argue that the self-selected sample at Ars might actually be pretty close to the iPhone user group as a whole, but that doesn't really work. How many status symbol victims really go to Ars, or even know what it is? How about business users? Teenage girls who have to have "the latest thing"? I'm sure they're just all over Ars Technica. Ars captures the uber-nerd segment of iPhone users pretty well, but not really anyone else.
And you get all this. It's a wonder that you made the argument.
The only other thing I would consider is that you could, I guess, pick at 'professional pollsters' and their methods, play up the flaws of them, and try to claim that they're so bad and polling in general is such 'voodoo science' that you might as well go by self-selection, since 'no one can really know anything'. But, somehow, I don't think we're going to see AP or Reuters or anyone legit replacing professional polls anytime soon with self-selected internet polls and claiming that they have equal validity. They'd probably be laughed at.
Sure, and it wouldn't prove anything beyond the likelihood that we have a lot of the same kind of ppl here who go to Ars. In fact, a fair number of ppl here like both sites. IIRC, I actually heard about Ars from AI, in fact.
Or... maybe it just doesn't make any sense.
Okay, I am being a bit cute. And it's possible that I'm also being hasty in my dismissal. But, it's hard to see a valid argument for the absolute ceiling of ppl in that Ars poll who wanted MMS, even if it were not their TOP pick for a new feature, to be set at 16%. Because said poll only allowed you to pick one response, and logically, ppl would tend to pick the feature they MOST wanted, not features they ALSO wanted, but could not list due to the limitations of said poll. If there's an alternate scenario, it seems like tortured logic to me, at best.
But, okay, let's pretend that, somehow, only 16% of the Ars respondees wanted MMS. I doubt it, but let's pretend. Guess what? That's still the third most-wanted new feature, according to the poll, and a close third at that.
Now, let's pretend that, somehow, Ars is actually a valid sample of all iPhone users. It almost certainly is not, but let's pretend. Under that, one in six iPhone users wanted MMS... that's 3 million users, and counting. Hardly an insignifcant group. I mean, Apple sure didn't seem to think so, eh?
Now, let's pretend that somehow, one in six users, and 3 million users, isn't really a big deal, and that Apple is actually the kind of company that would cave in to the cries of a vocal minority (though, gosh, that sure doesn't seem to square with how good Apple is at ignoring user demands that don't jibe with Stevie J's design ideals).
Guess what? IT DOESN'T MATTER. MMS is HERE for the iPhone, and it's going to get used LOTS, even if it is only by a minority of iPhone users (and I wouldn't automatically bet that it'll be a minority). Why should this be the cause of significant teeth-gnashing by anyone? Even kickhaha, uber-complainer, finally found out that he CAN opt out of messaging if he so likes.
I think the only thing that's really on the line here for the MMS-dislikers are some long-held cherished beliefs. For example, you argued pretty vehemently last time I was here that mobile email would, for sure, mostly replace MMS within two years. It would appear, from Apple's moves in the 3.0 software, that they don't see it that way (why bother to support something that's going to disappear very soon anyway? Especially considering that Apple's design ethic is that it does not believe in excess features).
It is more likely that Apple saw what I saw, and stated back then- MMS is extremely popular, and more than that, its' popularity has actually been RISING dramatically in the past couple of years, not declining. It's one thing to ignore a technology or feature that's popular but on a downswing, another thing entirely to try to stiff-arm a rising tide.
Is mobile email 'better'? Yeah, I agree that in some ways it is, but, it just doesn't matter. MMS is convenient, it's what ppl are used to, and sometimes, that's all you need to succeed. Inertia is powerful. The 'better' technology doesn't always win out... and I'm sure you can cite even more examples of that than I.
So, I think the 'two years' prediction is out the window now. Five years, ten years... you could make that bet, and I'd think you'd be right. And I'd probably put my money down right beside yours.
But, for now, it's an MMS world. And I'm happy that Apple recognized that reality.
I'm also happy that the iPhone has evolved in ways that I had hoped it would... my requests are getting picked off, one by one- 3G, landscape keyboard, MMS. Now we just need a better camera and video recording. And, of course, a better carrier than AT&T. Wouldn't be shocked if those things come to pass, sooner rather than later.
So, bravo to Apple. They do listen, sometimes.
.
Wow! That was a long post!
Yeah, I guess you could say I was a bit testy. But you said you were leaving...
As I responded to another on this, polling is an interesting subject, along with statistics. You'd be surprised at how many different groups selected come up with the same answers. When I started my career, one of the things I was involved in, because of my degree in psychology (just a Masters), was to work on polls, surveys and focus groups. What I found, to my surprise, was that it almost didn't matter who we picked. On average, every group gave about the same responses. The only time when this was different was when the subject involved religion, politics, and just a very few other areas.
In following research in my journals, I see that I'm not the only one to find this out.
That's why I think this poll was pretty good.
and remember that selecting every feature in order doesn't mean that the results would be different in any major way.
If the people who picked cut and paste 48% of the time then had to select the others in descending order, did so, what would they break that 51% into? There were 4 other features. That would leave all four with half the percentage.
From what we saw, the smallest was for stereo headphones, at 8%.
What would they pick for second, or third, forth or fifth?
Since they were only 8%, whatever they picked would be even less.
What exactly should user do to select in Safari a block beginning on the one line and ending in the middle of another? Double tap in the blurb? Isn't it third way to select after two others implemented in Mail and Notes apps?
The user taps and holds a picture on web page. What is about to happen? The dialog to save picture will pop up? Or the blurb to make the picture selectable and to copy in in the pasteboard?
The user wants to drag the entire page by the finger as (s)he used to. What exactly will the gesture to start selecting be and what will that to drag the page be?
Well, at least you see it. C'mon Mel, I think you do funny well. Dare to be funny again!
Quote:
As I responded to another on this, polling is an interesting subject, along with statistics. You'd be surprised at how many different groups selected come up with the same answers. When I started my career, one of the things I was involved in, because of my degree in psychology (just a Masters), was to work on polls, surveys and focus groups. What I found, to my surprise, was that it almost didn't matter who we picked. On average, every group gave about the same responses. The only time when this was different was when the subject involved religion, politics, and just a very few other areas.
In following research in my journals, I see that I'm not the only one to find this out.
That's why I think this poll was pretty good.
C'mon, Mel. You, more than anyone, can see the flaws there. Extrapolating your own personal "it usually doesn't matter" experience to everything else except religion and politics? Egads.
There's just no way Ars is gonna poll any significant percentage of the Paris Hilton-wannabees and tech-ignorants out there. And yes, they do buy iPhones. Apple's marketing really was that good.
Quote:
HaIf the people who picked cut and paste 48% of the time then had to select the others in descending order, did so, what would they break that 51% into? There were 4 other features. That would leave all four with half the percentage.
Why would you automatically assume that they'd pick the other four features at the same rate?
Sounds like you're guessing here.
And, of course, if they did, they'd actually be ADDING to the MMS totals, boosting them above 16%.
Since, adding the ability to make more choices would not seem to, logically, suddenly make the 16% who chose MMS alluva sudden NOT choose MMS anymore.
Those who chose MMS before would choose MMS again. And some of the others who previously chose another feature (because they wanted them more than MMS, and were previously allowed only one choice), but who ALSO wanted MMS, can now choose MMS as well.
A multi-choice poll would thus seem to boost the percentage of ppl who state that they want MMS above the 16% polled at Ars (though again, I emphasize the limited usefulness of the Ars poll).
Quote:
The results would be about the same.
A guess based on a guess would seem to be, you guessed it- a guess.
Not to say that your guesses aren't better than most, Mel.
Finally, here's another poll question at Ars that you didn't comment on:
(From Ars): Would you use MMS if Apple added it in iPhone 3.0?
I'm totally on board with Kickaha on this issue. I have no interest in MMS and frankly, virtually no interest in SMS either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisk
now find something else to complain about.. I've never seen someone so irate over paying 5 bucks for something..
That's $60/year, year after year.
Even still, don't you see that it's an issue of principle? As Kickaha so nicely put it: it's the equivalent of extortion. So, you don't want to pay for crap coming into your phone that you never asked for? Just pay us $5/month forever and we'll take care of it for you! Hahahaaaa.
Other countries have it right. The sender of SMS/MMS should solely be responsible for payment. They are initiating the communication. End of story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisk
OR, you can DISABLE text messaging all together, THERE IS A WAY to restrict text messages of all sorts
Along with Kickaha I was told by our carrier (some time ago, but more than once) that this was not allowed. So either there has been a change in policy or the sales dudes lie. Neither would surprise me.
However, this is an extreme; all or nothing. There is one person that I would like to be able to send/receive SMS, even though it may be a couple times/year. But in order to allow that I am forced to accept any and all manner of garbage from other "drunk guys in a bar", for which I'm on the hook to pay!
Quote:
Originally Posted by polymnia
Most people assume when they have your phone #, they text to that as well as call it.
Now that's scary. Really scary.
Folks, is this really true? Do people not care about wasting others' money, assuming they have unlimited SMS? And ass-u-me 'ing that people want to be texted at?
Quote:
Originally Posted by polymnia
This all depends on you pre-qualifying anyone who can reach you via your messaging kluge. That may work for you, but many (I'd guess most) people would like to be reachable by anyone, anytime, without a lot of hoops to jump through.
What if you don't want to be reachable by anyone, anytime? What if you don't want garbage sales reps trying to "consolidate your (non-existent) debt" every day? Using up your time (and precious minutes, depending on plan).
At least something good out of this thread is finding out that you can, in fact, restrict SMS/MMS to an iPhone. Too bad it has to be all or nothing.
I don't want Flash, at all. I like browsing without it, and it does not fit into the multi-touch paradigm either unless it is fully re-written. HTML 5 is just fine with me.
I don't want Flash on the iPhone / iPod Touch either, but I'm at a loss to understand why is doesn't (or couldn't) fit the multi-touch paradigm. ?
Well, at least you see it. C'mon Mel, I think you do funny well. Dare to be funny again!
If there's a chance of being funny, I will take it. but when there isn't, I don't want to fake it. I did think it was funny that you commented after you said you were leaving. That was my nod to your humor.
Quote:
C'mon, Mel. You, more than anyone, can see the flaws there. Extrapolating your own personal "it usually doesn't matter" experience to everything else except religion and politics? Egads.
I did work in this for several years. Did you? We found things to not be what you want them to be. If you want to, you can do some reading on this. Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you if you don't want to believe what I say.
Quote:
There's just no way Ars is gonna poll any significant percentage of the Paris Hilton-wannabees and tech-ignorants out there. And yes, they do buy iPhones. Apple's marketing really was that good.
The point is that it doesn't really matter. Even people who are basic in their needs often have the same ideas as others who are, or think they are, more sophisticated. And how do you know that Paris Hilton, who PLAYS the dumb blond, isn't smarter than you, or me?
Quote:
Why would you automatically assume that they'd pick the other four features at the same rate?
Sounds like you're guessing here.
I didn't say they would. But the numbers of people who are doing the picking matter here. If half of them pick cut and paste, then every other feature selected will have a much smaller number. If the people who selected stereo headphones select others, well, they are just 8% of the people in the first place.
Quote:
And, of course, if they did, they'd actually be ADDING to the MMS totals, boosting them above 16%.
Since, adding the ability to make more choices would not seem to, logically, suddenly make the 16% who chose MMS alluva sudden NOT choose MMS anymore.
Those who chose MMS before would choose MMS again. And some of the others who previously chose another feature (because they wanted them more than MMS, and were previously allowed only one choice), but who ALSO wanted MMS, can now choose MMS as well.
A multi-choice poll would thus seem to boost the percentage of ppl who state that they want MMS above the 16% polled at Ars (though again, I emphasize the limited usefulness of the Ars poll).
No, it doesn't work that way.
And there are other factors at work as well in selection processes that you are ignoring, ossibly because you don't want to believe them.
The truth is, this isn't the proper forum for this. It rapidly gets very involved.
A guess based on a guess would seem to be, you guessed it- a guess.
Not to say that your guesses aren't better than most, Mel.[/QUOTE]
On average, every group gave about the same responses. The only time when this was different was when the subject involved religion, politics, and just a very few other areas.
Wait, are you saying that technology feature sets are NOT religion?!
Seriously though, I guess I mostly agree with Mr. Baggins here. Perhaps when you started your career high-tech wasn't as prominent as it is now, but I can't see how it wouldn't fall into the same bin, at least to some degree. Think about the over-65 crowd. There's no way they're going to have the same opinions about tech features as the under-25 group. Similarly, among the "tech crowd", you'll get a very different response profile from "regular" folks, who are not tech-inclined.
Not understanding this is a big part of why Microsoft keeps firing blanks when they try to mimic Apple's successes. Apple's consumer products appeal to the masses. Often that means less features, as one element of product design, where among techies, more features are almost always better.
If there's a chance of being funny, I will take it. but when there isn't, I don't want to fake it. I did think it was funny that you commented after you said you were leaving. That was my nod to your humor.
Fair enough.
Quote:
I did work in this for several years. Did you? We found things to not be what you want them to be. If you want to, you can do some reading on this. Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you if you don't want to believe what I say.
Sorry Mel, I want to believe you, but I've just never ever heard a professional pollster say anything like "You know, it just doesn't matter really, all groups are pretty much the same, 'cept for questions on religion and politics."
Just does not compute. I'm sure there are many, many ppl who work in the field who'd disagree with you on that one. But, to be fair, maybe there's a few who would agree with you, and we just never seem to hear from them.
Quote:
The point is that it doesn't really matter. Even people who are basic in their needs often have the same ideas as others who are, or think they are, more sophisticated. And how do you know that Paris Hilton, who PLAYS the dumb blond, isn't smarter than you, or me?
Paris Hilton is SMART now!?!
Oh wow, Mel, are you reaching, or is it really a clever ploy to blow my mind? Mission accomplished. Lol.
Quote:
I didn't say they would. But the numbers of people who are doing the picking matter here. If half of them pick cut and paste, then every other feature selected will have a much smaller number. If the people who selected stereo headphones select others, well, they are just 8% of the people in the first place.
No, it doesn't work that way.
And there are other factors at work as well in selection processes that you are ignoring, ossibly because you don't want to believe them.
The truth is, this isn't the proper forum for this. It rapidly gets very involved.
And yet, for all that, there was another poll question on Ars Technica, that you may have missed:
(From Ars Technica): Would you use MMS if Apple added it in iPhone 3.0?
Yes: 60%
No: 40%
I dunno, Mel. Seems pretty clear-cut that more than 16% would've chosen MMS in a multi-choice poll, if 60% of them say they would actually be USING the feature, if only the iPhone offered it.
What I gather from this and the other Ars poll question in combination is that, while MMS may not've been at the top of everyone's wish list, it was definitely on a lot of ppl's lists, eh?
Wait, are you saying that technology feature sets are NOT religion?!
Seriously though, I guess I mostly agree with Mr. Baggins here. Perhaps when you started your career high-tech wasn't as prominent as it is now, but I can't see how it wouldn't fall into the same bin, at least to some degree. Think about the over-65 crowd. There's no way they're going to have the same opinions about tech features as the under-25 group. Similarly, among the "tech crowd", you'll get a very different response profile from "regular" folks, who are not tech-inclined.
Not understanding this is a big part of why Microsoft keeps firing blanks when they try to mimic Apple's successes. Apple's consumer products appeal to the masses. Often that means less features, as one element of product design, where among techies, more features are almost always better.
Just some thoughts.
Tech was just as prominent in 1970 as it is now. It's interesting that every generation somehow thinks that's it's "special" when it isn't.
Also computers have now been around for some time. Most people, even most of those over 65, have been using them for a while. That's true for cells as well. Don't forget that all of the pioneers in technology are now older. Those who are young are used to it. They deserve less credit for using it because of that.
I'm 59, and I have the same needs as any 20 year old. I know people who are more than a decade older than me who also use the latest devices and services.
It's a bit of a myth that older people aren't savvy about this.
Sorry Mel, I want to believe you, but I've just never ever heard a professional pollster say anything like "You know, it just doesn't matter really, all groups are pretty much the same, 'cept for questions on religion and politics."
Just does not compute. I'm sure there are many, many ppl who work in the field who'd disagree with you on that one. But, to be fair, maybe there's a few who would agree with you, and we just never seem to hear from them.
There's a difference between a "professional " poll, which is what we were doing, and an online poll like that, to be sure. I dodn't say that the accuracy would be the same. What I did say is that the accuracy is good enough to get a fairly accurate idea.
Really, if a professional poll of 3,000 people can get to +- 3%, and an online poll with 3,000 people responding can get to +-10%, for the purpose of getting an idea of needs, that s close enough.
That means the 16% who wanted MMS would be from 14.4% to 17.6%, more than close enough for the purpose.
Quote:
Paris Hilton is SMART now!?!
Oh wow, Mel, are you reaching, or is it really a clever ploy to blow my mind? Mission accomplished. Lol.
Now, you're being silly.
Quote:
And yet, for all that, there was another poll question on Ars Technica, that you may have missed:
(From Ars Technica): Would you use MMS if Apple added it in iPhone 3.0?
Yes: 60%
No: 40%
Sure, that's an entirely different question. I may not care about something, and I may not refuse to buy a product without it, but I might use it if it were there.
If they did a poll about cut and paste, it may have 100% using it if it were there.
That doesn't change the fact that most people don't care, and don't miss it, and don't buy a product based on whether it's there, which is the whole point.
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I dunno, Mel. Seems pretty clear-cut that more than 16% would've chosen MMS in a multi-choice poll, if 60% of them say they would actually be USING the feature, if only the iPhone offered it.
No, it doesn't.
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What I gather from this and the other Ars poll question in combination is that, while MMS may not've been at the top of everyone's wish list, it was definitely on a lot of ppl's lists, eh?
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It just means, like it does with almost anything else, that if someone got something for free that they wouldn't pay money for, they would likely use it.
That's not what any company would base its products on. No company is interested in people who would get something only if it's free, which is essentially what that second poll shows.
Comments
I'm definitely excited about accessory makers finally being allowed to use the dock connector port. All those gamepads that people have been clamoring for will finally have their chance to shine. But more importantly, I hope it allows the platform to expand into other markets.
The scanners we use at the store I work at cost somewhere in the (shudder) thousands, from what I've heard, and run (shudder, shudder) Windows Mobile. What if you could buy a $260 (CAD) iPod touch and click it into a small, sleek laser-scanning cradle with a dock connector and a custom-written app (perhaps with a stylus attached via stretchy cord for those with beefy fingers)? It'd save tons of money (unless the scanner cradle manufacturer extorted thousands of dollars for their accessory), and I'd bet employees would enjoy using it more than they do Windows More-bile if the app developer spent more than thirty seconds on the UI.
*We now return you to our regularly scheduled MMS-versus-email argument, now in progress!*
Sorry, but I watched the presentation and it seemed to me that cut would work. Although Scott did choose to use "copy" for his examples.
Sure, cut will function. So will paste. But Scott chose copy not for nothing. Copy is efficient, flexible and rich in features in email application, where it isn't of relatively great demand. Copy is not at all that advanced in other applications, Safari for instance, where we'd want it to. That's what I was trying to say.
I'd bet more than 16% of the iPhone users would like to have flash. Where's that action?
I don't want Flash, at all. I like browsing without it, and it does not fit into the multi-touch paradigm either unless it is fully re-written. HTML 5 is just fine with me.
Apple paid minimum price of additional tap and hold gesture necessary to bring up the blurb (smart container selector) in applications supporting double tap zoom feature. Further process of selecting text is perfectly universal amongst all programs on the system.
What was that price paid for? For customer satisfaction. The first version of Mobile Safari reserved too many gestures to fascinate the end user, which wants to have browser before everything else.
Still, I'm maintaining my point (being considerably weakened, sure) about the copy operation was better optimized in applications, which needed it less.
OR, you can DISABLE text messaging all together, THERE IS A WAY to restrict text messages of all sorts
so yeah, there is
go to a store, tell them to do it, and no I'm not some idiot who is assuming stuff, i could tell you the freakin' SOC code for the feature necessary as I've worked for AT&T
Great, I wish you'd been the sales person who told me, when I bought the iPhones, that it was impossible.
Or the sales rep on the phone a week later who told me the same thing.
Or the customer rep on the phone later that month who repeated it.
I can't imagine why they'd tell me it wasn't possible...
now find something else to complain about.. I've never seen someone so irate over paying 5 bucks for something..
Great, send me $5 or I keep whining at you. Awwwww, why you getting irate?
is there a comeback to that
not when you like it
I guess with the Dock connector support now, they can replace all of their handheld payment systems at the Apple Store with iPhones or iPod Touches - no more Windows Mobile!
Exactly!
*We interrupt this MMS-versus-email argument to bring you this exclusive Shunnabunich post!*
I'm definitely excited about accessory makers finally being allowed to use the dock connector port. All those gamepads that people have been clamoring for will finally have their chance to shine. But more importantly, I hope it allows the platform to expand into other markets.
The scanners we use at the store I work at cost somewhere in the (shudder) thousands, from what I've heard, and run (shudder, shudder) Windows Mobile. What if you could buy a $260 (CAD) iPod touch and click it into a small, sleek laser-scanning cradle with a dock connector and a custom-written app (perhaps with a stylus attached via stretchy cord for those with beefy fingers)? It'd save tons of money (unless the scanner cradle manufacturer extorted thousands of dollars for their accessory), and I'd bet employees would enjoy using it more than they do Windows More-bile if the app developer spent more than thirty seconds on the UI.
*We now return you to our regularly scheduled MMS-versus-email argument, now in progress!*
We'll have to see what Apple does here.
In their own stores, Apple uses Pocket PC devices with the proper software, and card scanners for mobile sales people. That's what was done when my wife and I went to buy our three phones.
Apple has stated that they are embarrassed to be using them. Hopefully, that means they are working on something themselves. If they come out with it for themselves, possibly, they may want to sell the total solution. But you never know. It may not be a priority right now.
There is at least one app out that works with the card verification companies, so that's a start.
You said that already.
Tsk, testy.
Y'know, the Mel I remember would've taken the opportunity to say something humorous there, instead being snippy. You risk sounding embittered.
Who hurt you, Mel? Who hurt you?
You don't know that. We only need 3,000 people to represent hundreds of millions, to an accuracy of +-3%.
Um... sure, if those 3,000 ppl had been scientifically-selected by good professional posters, so as to faithfully represent the full spectrum of iPhone users. Obviously, that wasn't the case here... the sample is self-selected, i.e. "a buncha ppl who happen to go to uber-geek site Ars."
The equivalent in, say, a Presidential race, would be to do a poll of everyone who happens to drop by my pollster table at the country club. Oh, McCain's up by 30 points? Wow, you don't say. You get odd results when you don't try to duplicate the larger group in question and weight accordingly... that's just Stats 101.
Sure, you could try to argue that the self-selected sample at Ars might actually be pretty close to the iPhone user group as a whole, but that doesn't really work. How many fashionistas/status symbol victims really go to Ars, or even know what it is? How about business users? Teenage girls who have to have "the latest thing"? I'm sure they're just all over Ars Technica.
And you get all this. It's a wonder that you made the argument.
The only other thing I would consider is that you could, I guess, pick at 'professional pollsters' and their methods, play up the flaws of them, and try to claim that they're so bad and polling in general is such 'voodoo science' that you might as well go by self-selection, since 'no one can really know anything'. But, somehow, I don't think we're going to see AP or Reuters or anyone legit replacing professional polls anytime soon with self-selected internet polls and claiming that they have equal validity. They'd probably be laughed at.
If we took a poll here, I wouldn't be surprised if we had about the same numbers.
Sure, and it wouldn't prove anything beyond the likelihood that we have a lot of the same kind of ppl here who go to Ars. In fact, a fair number of ppl here like both sites. IIRC, I actually heard about Ars from AI, in fact.
It makes perfect sense.
If you don't understand it...
Or... maybe it just doesn't make any sense.
Okay, I am being a bit cute. And it's possible that I'm also being hasty in my dismissal. But, it's hard to see a valid argument for the absolute ceiling of ppl in that Ars poll who wanted MMS, even if it were not their TOP pick for a new feature, to be set at 16%. Because said poll only allowed you to pick one response, and logically, ppl would tend to pick the feature they MOST wanted, not features they ALSO wanted, but could not list due to the limitations of said poll. If there's an alternate scenario, it seems like tortured logic to me, at best.
But, okay, let's pretend that, somehow, only 16% of the Ars respondees wanted MMS. I doubt it, but let's pretend. Guess what? That's still the third most-wanted new feature, according to the poll, and a close third at that.
Now, let's pretend that, somehow, Ars is actually a valid sample of all iPhone users. It almost certainly is not, but let's pretend. Under that, one in six iPhone users wanted MMS... that's 3 million users, and counting. Hardly an insignifcant group. I mean, Apple sure didn't seem to think so, eh?
Now, let's pretend that somehow, one in six users, and 3 million users and counting, isn't really a big deal, but that the noise they make is, and that Apple is actually the kind of company that would utterly cave in to the cries of a vocal minority (though, gosh, that sure doesn't seem to square with how good Apple is at ignoring user demands that don't jibe with Stevie J's design ideals, now does it?).
Guess what? IT DOESN'T MATTER. MMS is HERE for the iPhone, and it's going to get used LOTS, even if it is only by a minority of iPhone users (and I wouldn't automatically bet that it'll be a minority). Why should this be the cause of significant teeth-gnashing by anyone? Even kickhaha, uber-complainer, finally found out that he CAN opt out of messaging if he so likes.
I think the only thing that's really on the line here for the MMS-dislikers are some long-held cherished beliefs. For example, you argued pretty vehemently last time I was here that mobile email would, for sure, mostly replace MMS within two years. It would appear, from Apple's moves in the 3.0 software, that they don't see it that way (why bother to support something that's going to disappear very soon anyway? Especially considering that Apple's design ethic is that it does not believe in excess features).
It is more likely that Apple saw what I saw, and stated back then- MMS is extremely popular, and more than that, its' popularity has actually been RISING dramatically in the past couple of years, not declining (I posted the stats last time I was here). It's one thing to ignore a technology or feature that's popular but on a downswing, another thing entirely to try to stiff-arm a rising tide.
Is mobile email 'better'? Yeah, I agree that in some ways it is, but, it just doesn't matter. MMS is convenient, it's what ppl are used to, and sometimes, that's all you need to succeed. Inertia is powerful. The 'better' technology doesn't always win out... and I'm sure you can cite even more examples of that than I.
So, I think the 'two years' prediction is out the window now. Five years, ten years... you could make that bet, and I'd think you'd be right. And I'd probably put my money down right beside yours.
But, for now, it's an MMS world. And I'm happy that Apple recognized that reality.
I'm also happy that the iPhone has evolved in ways that I had hoped it would... my requests are getting picked off, one by one- 3G, landscape keyboard, MMS. Now we just need a better camera and video recording. And, of course, a better carrier than AT&T. Wouldn't be shocked if those things come to pass, sooner rather than later (though unfortunately the ATT exclusive is 'til mid-'010 now).
So, bravo to Apple. They do listen, sometimes.
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Well, back from my overnight trip. What did I miss?
Tsk, testy.
Y'know, the Mel I remember would've taken the opportunity to say something humorous there, instead being snippy. You risk sounding embittered.
Who hurt you, Mel? Who hurt you?
Um... sure, if those 3,000 ppl had been scientifically-selected by good professional posters, so as to faithfully represent the full spectrum of iPhone users. Obviously, that wasn't the case here... the sample is self-selected, i.e. "a buncha ppl who happen to go to uber-geek site Ars."
The equivalent in, say, a Presidential race, would be to do a poll of everyone at the country club. Oh, McCain's up by 30 points? Wow, you don't say. You get odd results when you don't try to duplicate the larger group in question and weight accordingly... that's just Stats 101.
Sure, you could try to argue that the self-selected sample at Ars might actually be pretty close to the iPhone user group as a whole, but that doesn't really work. How many status symbol victims really go to Ars, or even know what it is? How about business users? Teenage girls who have to have "the latest thing"? I'm sure they're just all over Ars Technica.
And you get all this. It's a wonder that you made the argument.
The only other thing I would consider is that you could, I guess, pick at 'professional pollsters' and their methods, play up the flaws of them, and try to claim that they're so bad and polling in general is such 'voodoo science' that you might as well go by self-selection, since 'no one can really know anything'. But, somehow, I don't think we're going to see AP or Reuters or anyone legit replacing professional polls anytime soon with self-selected internet polls and claiming that they have equal validity. They'd probably be laughed at.
Sure, and it wouldn't prove anything beyond the likelihood that we have a lot of the same kind of ppl here who go to Ars. In fact, a fair number of ppl here like both sites. IIRC, I actually heard about Ars from AI, in fact.
Or... maybe it just doesn't make any sense.
Okay, I am being a bit cute. And it's possible that I'm also being hasty in my dismissal. But, it's hard to see a valid argument for the absolute ceiling of ppl in that Ars poll who wanted MMS, even if it were not their TOP pick for a new feature, to be set at 16%. Because said poll only allowed you to pick one response, and logically, ppl would tend to pick the feature they MOST wanted, not features they ALSO wanted, but could not list due to the limitations of said poll. If there's an alternate scenario, it seems like tortured logic to me, at best.
But, okay, let's pretend that, somehow, only 16% of the Ars respondees wanted MMS. I doubt it, but let's pretend. Guess what? That's still the third most-wanted new feature, according to the poll, and a close third at that.
Now, let's pretend that, somehow, Ars is actually a valid sample of all iPhone users. It almost certainly is not, but let's pretend. Under that, one in six iPhone users wanted MMS... that's 3 million users, and counting. Hardly an insignifcant group. I mean, Apple sure didn't seem to think so, eh?
Now, let's pretend that somehow, one in six users, and 3 million users, isn't really a big deal, and that Apple is actually the kind of company that would cave in to the cries of a vocal minority (though, gosh, that sure doesn't seem to square with how good Apple is at ignoring user demands that don't jibe with Stevie J's design ideals).
Guess what? IT DOESN'T MATTER. MMS is HERE for the iPhone, and it's going to get used LOTS, even if it is only by a minority of iPhone users (and I wouldn't automatically bet that it'll be a minority). Why should this be the cause of significant teeth-gnashing by anyone? Even kickhaha, uber-complainer, finally found out that he CAN opt out of messaging if he so likes.
I think the only thing that's really on the line here for the MMS-dislikers are some long-held cherished beliefs. For example, you argued pretty vehemently last time I was here that mobile email would, for sure, mostly replace MMS within two years. It would appear, from Apple's moves in the 3.0 software, that they don't see it that way (why bother to support something that's going to disappear very soon anyway? Especially considering that Apple's design ethic is that it does not believe in excess features).
It is more likely that Apple saw what I saw, and stated back then- MMS is extremely popular, and more than that, its' popularity has actually been RISING dramatically in the past couple of years, not declining. It's one thing to ignore a technology or feature that's popular but on a downswing, another thing entirely to try to stiff-arm a rising tide.
Is mobile email 'better'? Yeah, I agree that in some ways it is, but, it just doesn't matter. MMS is convenient, it's what ppl are used to, and sometimes, that's all you need to succeed. Inertia is powerful. The 'better' technology doesn't always win out... and I'm sure you can cite even more examples of that than I.
So, I think the 'two years' prediction is out the window now. Five years, ten years... you could make that bet, and I'd think you'd be right. And I'd probably put my money down right beside yours.
But, for now, it's an MMS world. And I'm happy that Apple recognized that reality.
I'm also happy that the iPhone has evolved in ways that I had hoped it would... my requests are getting picked off, one by one- 3G, landscape keyboard, MMS. Now we just need a better camera and video recording. And, of course, a better carrier than AT&T. Wouldn't be shocked if those things come to pass, sooner rather than later.
So, bravo to Apple. They do listen, sometimes.
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Wow! That was a long post!
Yeah, I guess you could say I was a bit testy. But you said you were leaving...
As I responded to another on this, polling is an interesting subject, along with statistics. You'd be surprised at how many different groups selected come up with the same answers. When I started my career, one of the things I was involved in, because of my degree in psychology (just a Masters), was to work on polls, surveys and focus groups. What I found, to my surprise, was that it almost didn't matter who we picked. On average, every group gave about the same responses. The only time when this was different was when the subject involved religion, politics, and just a very few other areas.
In following research in my journals, I see that I'm not the only one to find this out.
That's why I think this poll was pretty good.
and remember that selecting every feature in order doesn't mean that the results would be different in any major way.
If the people who picked cut and paste 48% of the time then had to select the others in descending order, did so, what would they break that 51% into? There were 4 other features. That would leave all four with half the percentage.
From what we saw, the smallest was for stereo headphones, at 8%.
What would they pick for second, or third, forth or fifth?
Since they were only 8%, whatever they picked would be even less.
The results would be about the same.
The user taps and holds a picture on web page. What is about to happen? The dialog to save picture will pop up? Or the blurb to make the picture selectable and to copy in in the pasteboard?
The user wants to drag the entire page by the finger as (s)he used to. What exactly will the gesture to start selecting be and what will that to drag the page be?
Yeah, I guess you could say I was a bit testy.
Well, at least you see it. C'mon Mel, I think you do funny well. Dare to be funny again!
As I responded to another on this, polling is an interesting subject, along with statistics. You'd be surprised at how many different groups selected come up with the same answers. When I started my career, one of the things I was involved in, because of my degree in psychology (just a Masters), was to work on polls, surveys and focus groups. What I found, to my surprise, was that it almost didn't matter who we picked. On average, every group gave about the same responses. The only time when this was different was when the subject involved religion, politics, and just a very few other areas.
In following research in my journals, I see that I'm not the only one to find this out.
That's why I think this poll was pretty good.
C'mon, Mel. You, more than anyone, can see the flaws there. Extrapolating your own personal "it usually doesn't matter" experience to everything else except religion and politics? Egads.
There's just no way Ars is gonna poll any significant percentage of the Paris Hilton-wannabees and tech-ignorants out there. And yes, they do buy iPhones. Apple's marketing really was that good.
HaIf the people who picked cut and paste 48% of the time then had to select the others in descending order, did so, what would they break that 51% into? There were 4 other features. That would leave all four with half the percentage.
Why would you automatically assume that they'd pick the other four features at the same rate?
Sounds like you're guessing here.
And, of course, if they did, they'd actually be ADDING to the MMS totals, boosting them above 16%.
Since, adding the ability to make more choices would not seem to, logically, suddenly make the 16% who chose MMS alluva sudden NOT choose MMS anymore.
Those who chose MMS before would choose MMS again. And some of the others who previously chose another feature (because they wanted them more than MMS, and were previously allowed only one choice), but who ALSO wanted MMS, can now choose MMS as well.
A multi-choice poll would thus seem to boost the percentage of ppl who state that they want MMS above the 16% polled at Ars (though again, I emphasize the limited usefulness of the Ars poll).
The results would be about the same.
A guess based on a guess would seem to be, you guessed it- a guess.
Not to say that your guesses aren't better than most, Mel.
Finally, here's another poll question at Ars that you didn't comment on:
(From Ars): Would you use MMS if Apple added it in iPhone 3.0?
Yes: 60%
No: 40%
Still dig Ars polls, Mel?
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now find something else to complain about.. I've never seen someone so irate over paying 5 bucks for something..
That's $60/year, year after year.
Even still, don't you see that it's an issue of principle? As Kickaha so nicely put it: it's the equivalent of extortion. So, you don't want to pay for crap coming into your phone that you never asked for? Just pay us $5/month forever and we'll take care of it for you! Hahahaaaa.
Other countries have it right. The sender of SMS/MMS should solely be responsible for payment. They are initiating the communication. End of story.
OR, you can DISABLE text messaging all together, THERE IS A WAY to restrict text messages of all sorts
Along with Kickaha I was told by our carrier (some time ago, but more than once) that this was not allowed. So either there has been a change in policy or the sales dudes lie. Neither would surprise me.
However, this is an extreme; all or nothing. There is one person that I would like to be able to send/receive SMS, even though it may be a couple times/year. But in order to allow that I am forced to accept any and all manner of garbage from other "drunk guys in a bar", for which I'm on the hook to pay!
Most people assume when they have your phone #, they text to that as well as call it.
Now that's scary. Really scary.
Folks, is this really true? Do people not care about wasting others' money, assuming they have unlimited SMS? And ass-u-me 'ing that people want to be texted at?
This all depends on you pre-qualifying anyone who can reach you via your messaging kluge. That may work for you, but many (I'd guess most) people would like to be reachable by anyone, anytime, without a lot of hoops to jump through.
What if you don't want to be reachable by anyone, anytime? What if you don't want garbage sales reps trying to "consolidate your (non-existent) debt" every day? Using up your time (and precious minutes, depending on plan).
At least something good out of this thread is finding out that you can, in fact, restrict SMS/MMS to an iPhone. Too bad it has to be all or nothing.
I don't want Flash, at all. I like browsing without it, and it does not fit into the multi-touch paradigm either unless it is fully re-written. HTML 5 is just fine with me.
I don't want Flash on the iPhone / iPod Touch either, but I'm at a loss to understand why is doesn't (or couldn't) fit the multi-touch paradigm. ?
Well, at least you see it. C'mon Mel, I think you do funny well. Dare to be funny again!
If there's a chance of being funny, I will take it. but when there isn't, I don't want to fake it. I did think it was funny that you commented after you said you were leaving. That was my nod to your humor.
C'mon, Mel. You, more than anyone, can see the flaws there. Extrapolating your own personal "it usually doesn't matter" experience to everything else except religion and politics? Egads.
I did work in this for several years. Did you? We found things to not be what you want them to be. If you want to, you can do some reading on this. Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you if you don't want to believe what I say.
There's just no way Ars is gonna poll any significant percentage of the Paris Hilton-wannabees and tech-ignorants out there. And yes, they do buy iPhones. Apple's marketing really was that good.
The point is that it doesn't really matter. Even people who are basic in their needs often have the same ideas as others who are, or think they are, more sophisticated. And how do you know that Paris Hilton, who PLAYS the dumb blond, isn't smarter than you, or me?
Why would you automatically assume that they'd pick the other four features at the same rate?
Sounds like you're guessing here.
I didn't say they would. But the numbers of people who are doing the picking matter here. If half of them pick cut and paste, then every other feature selected will have a much smaller number. If the people who selected stereo headphones select others, well, they are just 8% of the people in the first place.
And, of course, if they did, they'd actually be ADDING to the MMS totals, boosting them above 16%.
Since, adding the ability to make more choices would not seem to, logically, suddenly make the 16% who chose MMS alluva sudden NOT choose MMS anymore.
Those who chose MMS before would choose MMS again. And some of the others who previously chose another feature (because they wanted them more than MMS, and were previously allowed only one choice), but who ALSO wanted MMS, can now choose MMS as well.
A multi-choice poll would thus seem to boost the percentage of ppl who state that they want MMS above the 16% polled at Ars (though again, I emphasize the limited usefulness of the Ars poll).
No, it doesn't work that way.
And there are other factors at work as well in selection processes that you are ignoring, ossibly because you don't want to believe them.
The truth is, this isn't the proper forum for this. It rapidly gets very involved.
A guess based on a guess would seem to be, you guessed it- a guess.
Not to say that your guesses aren't better than most, Mel.[/QUOTE]
On average, every group gave about the same responses. The only time when this was different was when the subject involved religion, politics, and just a very few other areas.
Wait, are you saying that technology feature sets are NOT religion?!
Seriously though, I guess I mostly agree with Mr. Baggins here. Perhaps when you started your career high-tech wasn't as prominent as it is now, but I can't see how it wouldn't fall into the same bin, at least to some degree. Think about the over-65 crowd. There's no way they're going to have the same opinions about tech features as the under-25 group. Similarly, among the "tech crowd", you'll get a very different response profile from "regular" folks, who are not tech-inclined.
Not understanding this is a big part of why Microsoft keeps firing blanks when they try to mimic Apple's successes. Apple's consumer products appeal to the masses. Often that means less features, as one element of product design, where among techies, more features are almost always better.
Just some thoughts.
If there's a chance of being funny, I will take it. but when there isn't, I don't want to fake it. I did think it was funny that you commented after you said you were leaving. That was my nod to your humor.
Fair enough.
I did work in this for several years. Did you? We found things to not be what you want them to be. If you want to, you can do some reading on this. Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you if you don't want to believe what I say.
Sorry Mel, I want to believe you, but I've just never ever heard a professional pollster say anything like "You know, it just doesn't matter really, all groups are pretty much the same, 'cept for questions on religion and politics."
Just does not compute. I'm sure there are many, many ppl who work in the field who'd disagree with you on that one. But, to be fair, maybe there's a few who would agree with you, and we just never seem to hear from them.
The point is that it doesn't really matter. Even people who are basic in their needs often have the same ideas as others who are, or think they are, more sophisticated. And how do you know that Paris Hilton, who PLAYS the dumb blond, isn't smarter than you, or me?
Paris Hilton is SMART now!?!
Oh wow, Mel, are you reaching, or is it really a clever ploy to blow my mind? Mission accomplished. Lol.
I didn't say they would. But the numbers of people who are doing the picking matter here. If half of them pick cut and paste, then every other feature selected will have a much smaller number. If the people who selected stereo headphones select others, well, they are just 8% of the people in the first place.
No, it doesn't work that way.
And there are other factors at work as well in selection processes that you are ignoring, ossibly because you don't want to believe them.
The truth is, this isn't the proper forum for this. It rapidly gets very involved.
And yet, for all that, there was another poll question on Ars Technica, that you may have missed:
(From Ars Technica): Would you use MMS if Apple added it in iPhone 3.0?
Yes: 60%
No: 40%
I dunno, Mel. Seems pretty clear-cut that more than 16% would've chosen MMS in a multi-choice poll, if 60% of them say they would actually be USING the feature, if only the iPhone offered it.
What I gather from this and the other Ars poll question in combination is that, while MMS may not've been at the top of everyone's wish list, it was definitely on a lot of ppl's lists, eh?
.
Wait, are you saying that technology feature sets are NOT religion?!
Seriously though, I guess I mostly agree with Mr. Baggins here. Perhaps when you started your career high-tech wasn't as prominent as it is now, but I can't see how it wouldn't fall into the same bin, at least to some degree. Think about the over-65 crowd. There's no way they're going to have the same opinions about tech features as the under-25 group. Similarly, among the "tech crowd", you'll get a very different response profile from "regular" folks, who are not tech-inclined.
Not understanding this is a big part of why Microsoft keeps firing blanks when they try to mimic Apple's successes. Apple's consumer products appeal to the masses. Often that means less features, as one element of product design, where among techies, more features are almost always better.
Just some thoughts.
Tech was just as prominent in 1970 as it is now. It's interesting that every generation somehow thinks that's it's "special" when it isn't.
Also computers have now been around for some time. Most people, even most of those over 65, have been using them for a while. That's true for cells as well. Don't forget that all of the pioneers in technology are now older. Those who are young are used to it. They deserve less credit for using it because of that.
I'm 59, and I have the same needs as any 20 year old. I know people who are more than a decade older than me who also use the latest devices and services.
It's a bit of a myth that older people aren't savvy about this.
Sorry Mel, I want to believe you, but I've just never ever heard a professional pollster say anything like "You know, it just doesn't matter really, all groups are pretty much the same, 'cept for questions on religion and politics."
Just does not compute. I'm sure there are many, many ppl who work in the field who'd disagree with you on that one. But, to be fair, maybe there's a few who would agree with you, and we just never seem to hear from them.
There's a difference between a "professional " poll, which is what we were doing, and an online poll like that, to be sure. I dodn't say that the accuracy would be the same. What I did say is that the accuracy is good enough to get a fairly accurate idea.
Really, if a professional poll of 3,000 people can get to +- 3%, and an online poll with 3,000 people responding can get to +-10%, for the purpose of getting an idea of needs, that s close enough.
That means the 16% who wanted MMS would be from 14.4% to 17.6%, more than close enough for the purpose.
Paris Hilton is SMART now!?!
Oh wow, Mel, are you reaching, or is it really a clever ploy to blow my mind? Mission accomplished. Lol.
Now, you're being silly.
And yet, for all that, there was another poll question on Ars Technica, that you may have missed:
(From Ars Technica): Would you use MMS if Apple added it in iPhone 3.0?
Yes: 60%
No: 40%
Sure, that's an entirely different question. I may not care about something, and I may not refuse to buy a product without it, but I might use it if it were there.
If they did a poll about cut and paste, it may have 100% using it if it were there.
That doesn't change the fact that most people don't care, and don't miss it, and don't buy a product based on whether it's there, which is the whole point.
I dunno, Mel. Seems pretty clear-cut that more than 16% would've chosen MMS in a multi-choice poll, if 60% of them say they would actually be USING the feature, if only the iPhone offered it.
No, it doesn't.
What I gather from this and the other Ars poll question in combination is that, while MMS may not've been at the top of everyone's wish list, it was definitely on a lot of ppl's lists, eh?
.
It just means, like it does with almost anything else, that if someone got something for free that they wouldn't pay money for, they would likely use it.
That's not what any company would base its products on. No company is interested in people who would get something only if it's free, which is essentially what that second poll shows.