I guess the best thing to do is to watch it for yourself and make your own conclusion, many of the things you stated are summarized in the movie.
Being a shareholder or a board member does not allow you access to engineers.
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I do so love it when posters here make claims like the above as some type of factoid that prevent someone access to something.
In the 80's and early 90's I was neither a shareholder, or a board member, or an employee, yet had ample access to both XEROX PARC and Apple engineers.
I wish Apple fanboys weren't so dismissive of the Zune platform. They are actually pretty nice devices, despite the fact that they are coming from Microsoft.
I have both a 16GB iPod Touch and an 80GB Zune. For playing videos and messing around with the Apps, the iPod Touch is awesome. But for listening to music it's just so-so. When I'm listening to music or podcasts, the Zune is my choice. The fact that it has physical buttons makes it much easier to use for music playback. And it's possible to control it when driving or doing something else that requires my attention (touch screens are terrible in these situations). The Zune UI is actually very clean, responsive, and more than capable. The hardware is well designed too. The integrated WiFi lets you do things you can't on the iPods like buy music (sans iPhone/Touch), sync with a computer wirelessly, and play networked games. And I know not everyone listens to the radio, but the fact that one is included certainly doesn't hurt anything; I use mine occasionally. Plus, since MS provides regular firmware updates for ALL Zunes (which they don't charge for), it isn't made obsolete when the next version comes out; MS has added tons of new features since I first bought mine and it hasn't cost me a dime. I personally don't use the Zune Marketplace to buy music, but tracks are all still $0.99 or less too.
I'm not sure how the Zune HD will be received, because it seems like MS is trying to copy the iPod Touch. It will certainly have the same shortcomings of a touch screen based UI. Maybe MS has some interesting twist that will give it an edge... we don't know yet. I suspect it will be a good video player, but not bring much else to the table.
I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I think the Zune is dismissed too quickly without it even being given a fair shake. I say don't knock it til you've tried it. I did and I ended up liking it enough to buy one. And it gets a lot more use than my iPod Touch does because I buy these devices primarily for listening to music.
I wish Apple fanboys weren't so dismissive of the Zune platform. They are actually pretty nice devices, despite the fact that they are coming from Microsoft.
I have both a 16GB iPod Touch and an 80GB Zune. For playing videos and messing around with the Apps, the iPod Touch is awesome. But for listening to music it's just so-so. When I'm listening to music or podcasts, the Zune is my choice. The fact that it has physical buttons makes it much easier to use for music playback. And it's possible to control it when driving or doing something else that requires my attention (touch screens are terrible in these situations). The Zune UI is actually very clean, responsive, and more than capable. The hardware is well designed too. The integrated WiFi lets you do things you can't on the iPods like buy music (sans iPhone/Touch), sync with a computer wirelessly, and play networked games. And I know not everyone listens to the radio, but the fact that one is included certainly doesn't hurt anything; I use mine occasionally. Plus, since MS provides regular firmware updates for ALL Zunes (which they don't charge for), it isn't made obsolete when the next version comes out; MS has added tons of new features since I first bought mine and it hasn't cost me a dime. I personally don't use the Zune Marketplace to buy music, but tracks are all still $0.99 or less too.
I'm not sure how the Zune HD will be received, because it seems like MS is trying to copy the iPod Touch. It will certainly have the same shortcomings of a touch screen based UI. Maybe MS has some interesting twist that will give it an edge... we don't know yet. I suspect it will be a good video player, but not bring much else to the table.
I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I think the Zune is dismissed too quickly without it even being given a fair shake. I say don't knock it til you've tried it. I did and I ended up liking it enough to buy one. And it gets a lot more use than my iPod Touch does because I buy these devices primarily for listening to music.
You don't help any objective argument you might have by starting out your post by calling people "fanboys" for not liking one product and preferring another.
I personally like the Zune 2.0 software. Apple was still going minimalist when the first Zune arrived. Now even the iPod Classic has a UI that seems to have taken some competitive cues from MS. That said, Zune 1.0 and the "ecosystem" it tried to create wasn't very good so it got a bad rap. And that first impression has lingered, ust like The BB Storm and MobileMe, for example.
If I didn't use Macs and like the ecosystem that Apple has created with my iPod Shuffle and iPhone, didn't want a PMP in my phone (which just won't happen now) and didn't want an Apple-based PMP I would consider the Zune. They have taken a pretty decent marketshare for a non-iPod PMP with a HDD and are the only one's with a worthwhile ecosystem outside of the iPod, which is why it really succeeded, but it still pales in comparison to Apple's player options.
As long as MS follows Apple's lead they will never have a dominating product. What worked with Windows was business shrewdness, bad management on Apple's part and some luck. I doubt that will happen again, though that seems what MS is trying to do with their HW divisions. Copy a competitor and keep throw money at it until it succeeds. I don't have to wish MS luck as I do Palm with their Pre because MS is highly profitable and has an outrageous net profit that doesn't look to be shrinking any time soon from their OS and office SW. They aren't going to go away any time soon, though these forums do get plenty of "MS will be gone in 5 years" comments."
You guys missed the other half of the information coming out of the Zune rumor mill... Netflix streaming.
Which just means MS has written a version of Silverlight for their mobile devices, which was inevitable. After that it's just a matter of navigating to the Netflix site.
Were there a Silverlight plugin for mobile Safari (or any other mobile browser), iPhone/Touch (or any other mobile device) could do the same; wouldn't be surprised if MS drags their heels on making that happen, would you?
I dare say, however, that trying to watch a Netflix movie on your mobile is going to be a serious battery killer.
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I do so love it when posters here make claims like the above as some type of factoid that prevent someone access to something.
In the 80's and early 90's I was neither a shareholder, or a board member, or an employee, yet had ample access to both XEROX PARC and Apple engineers.
So what, exactly, is your point?
Yeah, I just re-read my post, I didn't intent for it to sound obnoxious, my bad.
Wkikpedia:
"...Jobs had negotiated a visit to see the Xerox Alto computer and Smalltalk development tools in exchange for Apple stock options."
Yeah, I just re-read my post, I didn't intent for it to sound obnoxious, my bad.
Wkikpedia:
"...Jobs had negotiated a visit to see the Xerox Alto computer and Smalltalk development tools in exchange for Apple stock options."
Hey, It's OK. I been known to get carried away a time or a hundred.
BTW, how sad is it that on the Windows side of my current working life I am forced into daily use of a proprietary program that was written in Smalltalk? I think that of all the people I know, maybe me and two other guys could actually fix the program if we had to update it!
... I do believe you could call Windows a successful copy. In that it copied MacOS6,7,8,9,X and was a successful product in the market place.
But I would call that a successful copy, and I believe MS would agree, since it has earned them billions and billions of dollars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rg_spb
Wow, MS copying Apple would be such a new thing for them! The funny thing is, MS has never successfully copied Apple, they would be better off trying to invent something themselves. But then, maybe not. Just stick to making inept copies of Apple products.
You don't help any objective argument you might have by starting out your post by calling people "fanboys" for not liking one product and preferring another.
Dang it, Solipsism. You beat me to the punch again.
I was writing an Opus in response to this, on how I don't hate Microsoft products near as much as I hate the way the company uses it blatant strong arm tactics to gain market share. I witnessed plenty of such tactics back in the late 80's and early 90's while showing products at various MacWorld venues not to still have a bad taste in my mouth from the experience.
Back then there was competition and there was the Microsoft Gestapo.
I prefer competition.
So forgive me if I approach everything Microsoft does with a very well earned, heavy dose of skepticism. As for the "fanboy" comment? Around these parts you have to earn that title, Mister!
Has anyone ever actually seen a Zune in the wild? Yeah, I didn't think so.
It was super exciting... seriously. It was like seeing some crazy rare animal. I pointed it out to my wife. We couldn't help just staring at it, wondering how it came to be.
So, between my wife, my friends and I, we have spotted exactly 1. I feel kind of lucky.
I teach out in the Seattle area and I rarely see Zunes except for the kids that have parents that work for Microsoft. I do think the UI for Zune (2.0) actually looks better than the iPod Classic UI, but since I have purchased the iPhone, neither interface looks very impressive to me.
Here is what I usually see at our school:
MOST POPULAR BY FAR - iPod Nano - so many of these, it's incredible
iPod Classic - not so much since the iPod Touch came out. Mostly older generations. I imagine apple is going to can this one in about a year.
iPod Touch - these numbers increase all the time. The browser and schools starting to add wi-fi have made this one very useful for students. You can find out something without having to run to the computer lab.
iPhone - I see a lot of 1st generation iPhones popping up. I just assume Dad bought the new one and gave the old one to their son or daughter.
iPod Shuffles and Zunes - I see about the equal number of these. It's kind of sad because I think PMPs have definitely become a social status thing, so a lot of kids that don't have the cutting edge technology seem to try and hide them. I think that's why I rarely see Zunes or shuffles out in the open. I may just not see the Shuffle because there is no need to take it out of their pockets. Who knows/cares.
I definitely have not seen a new shuffle in the wild, but it's practically invisible.
Apple has better products already, and the success of their business over the last several quarters reflects that fact. What was your point exactly?
For the time being, Apple has a 70%+ market share in portable music players with iPods and a 10%-15% (?) market share in smart phones with iPhones.
But never dismiss Microsoft which has the money, engineers and market share to beat Apple if they want to.
More specifically, the iPod and iPhone must face competition from Google Android, Nokia Symbian, Palm Web OS and Microsoft Windows Mobile devices. Together, these alternatives are bound to achieve a colossal market share.
Apple is repeating the mistakes it made more than 20 years ago in:
1- refusing to license the Mac OS to computer builders;
2- selling Mac computers with a 50% profit margin, instead of 20%.
By dismissing Microsoft's efforts to produce a Zune HD, AppleInsider reminds me of Apple's own attitude 20 years ago when it dismissed Microsoft DOS as a potential threat to Apple. When Microsoft launched Windows 95 with a graphical user interface, Apple was slaughtered.
If Mac OS X is the gem Apple says that it is (and I believe that it is really good), then Apple should license it to earn money for its efforts instead of squandering its most important asset.
The same holds true for the iPhone OS. License it if it is so good (and I think that it is quite good), and don't squander the opportunity once again. Because, if Apple won't license the iPhone OS, others are going to write their own cell phone software (and Apple will not make a penny from it).
Is there anyone at AppleInsider who believes that no one, absolutely no one, can write a good cell phone system software to compete with the iPhone OS?
Has anyone ever actually seen a Zune in the wild? Yeah, I didn't think so.
I saw a good-looking girl on the subway with a Zune, and it kind of caught me off guard. Then she started picking her nose in a really blatant and disgusting fashion, and I had to look away. I'm not even kidding.
Comments
I guess the best thing to do is to watch it for yourself and make your own conclusion, many of the things you stated are summarized in the movie.
Being a shareholder or a board member does not allow you access to engineers.
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I do so love it when posters here make claims like the above as some type of factoid that prevent someone access to something.
In the 80's and early 90's I was neither a shareholder, or a board member, or an employee, yet had ample access to both XEROX PARC and Apple engineers.
So what, exactly, is your point?
I have both a 16GB iPod Touch and an 80GB Zune. For playing videos and messing around with the Apps, the iPod Touch is awesome. But for listening to music it's just so-so. When I'm listening to music or podcasts, the Zune is my choice. The fact that it has physical buttons makes it much easier to use for music playback. And it's possible to control it when driving or doing something else that requires my attention (touch screens are terrible in these situations). The Zune UI is actually very clean, responsive, and more than capable. The hardware is well designed too. The integrated WiFi lets you do things you can't on the iPods like buy music (sans iPhone/Touch), sync with a computer wirelessly, and play networked games. And I know not everyone listens to the radio, but the fact that one is included certainly doesn't hurt anything; I use mine occasionally. Plus, since MS provides regular firmware updates for ALL Zunes (which they don't charge for), it isn't made obsolete when the next version comes out; MS has added tons of new features since I first bought mine and it hasn't cost me a dime. I personally don't use the Zune Marketplace to buy music, but tracks are all still $0.99 or less too.
I'm not sure how the Zune HD will be received, because it seems like MS is trying to copy the iPod Touch. It will certainly have the same shortcomings of a touch screen based UI. Maybe MS has some interesting twist that will give it an edge... we don't know yet. I suspect it will be a good video player, but not bring much else to the table.
I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I think the Zune is dismissed too quickly without it even being given a fair shake. I say don't knock it til you've tried it. I did and I ended up liking it enough to buy one. And it gets a lot more use than my iPod Touch does because I buy these devices primarily for listening to music.
Then again, it's just vapourware for now.
MS has a lousy track record when it comes to releasing products that are even remotely compelling.
Living off the Windows-licensing and Office cash cow only takes you so far . . .
I wish Apple fanboys weren't so dismissive of the Zune platform. They are actually pretty nice devices, despite the fact that they are coming from Microsoft.
I have both a 16GB iPod Touch and an 80GB Zune. For playing videos and messing around with the Apps, the iPod Touch is awesome. But for listening to music it's just so-so. When I'm listening to music or podcasts, the Zune is my choice. The fact that it has physical buttons makes it much easier to use for music playback. And it's possible to control it when driving or doing something else that requires my attention (touch screens are terrible in these situations). The Zune UI is actually very clean, responsive, and more than capable. The hardware is well designed too. The integrated WiFi lets you do things you can't on the iPods like buy music (sans iPhone/Touch), sync with a computer wirelessly, and play networked games. And I know not everyone listens to the radio, but the fact that one is included certainly doesn't hurt anything; I use mine occasionally. Plus, since MS provides regular firmware updates for ALL Zunes (which they don't charge for), it isn't made obsolete when the next version comes out; MS has added tons of new features since I first bought mine and it hasn't cost me a dime. I personally don't use the Zune Marketplace to buy music, but tracks are all still $0.99 or less too.
I'm not sure how the Zune HD will be received, because it seems like MS is trying to copy the iPod Touch. It will certainly have the same shortcomings of a touch screen based UI. Maybe MS has some interesting twist that will give it an edge... we don't know yet. I suspect it will be a good video player, but not bring much else to the table.
I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I think the Zune is dismissed too quickly without it even being given a fair shake. I say don't knock it til you've tried it. I did and I ended up liking it enough to buy one. And it gets a lot more use than my iPod Touch does because I buy these devices primarily for listening to music.
You don't help any objective argument you might have by starting out your post by calling people "fanboys" for not liking one product and preferring another.
I personally like the Zune 2.0 software. Apple was still going minimalist when the first Zune arrived. Now even the iPod Classic has a UI that seems to have taken some competitive cues from MS. That said, Zune 1.0 and the "ecosystem" it tried to create wasn't very good so it got a bad rap. And that first impression has lingered, ust like The BB Storm and MobileMe, for example.
If I didn't use Macs and like the ecosystem that Apple has created with my iPod Shuffle and iPhone, didn't want a PMP in my phone (which just won't happen now) and didn't want an Apple-based PMP I would consider the Zune. They have taken a pretty decent marketshare for a non-iPod PMP with a HDD and are the only one's with a worthwhile ecosystem outside of the iPod, which is why it really succeeded, but it still pales in comparison to Apple's player options.
As long as MS follows Apple's lead they will never have a dominating product. What worked with Windows was business shrewdness, bad management on Apple's part and some luck. I doubt that will happen again, though that seems what MS is trying to do with their HW divisions. Copy a competitor and keep throw money at it until it succeeds. I don't have to wish MS luck as I do Palm with their Pre because MS is highly profitable and has an outrageous net profit that doesn't look to be shrinking any time soon from their OS and office SW. They aren't going to go away any time soon, though these forums do get plenty of "MS will be gone in 5 years" comments."
You guys missed the other half of the information coming out of the Zune rumor mill... Netflix streaming.
Which just means MS has written a version of Silverlight for their mobile devices, which was inevitable. After that it's just a matter of navigating to the Netflix site.
Were there a Silverlight plugin for mobile Safari (or any other mobile browser), iPhone/Touch (or any other mobile device) could do the same; wouldn't be surprised if MS drags their heels on making that happen, would you?
I dare say, however, that trying to watch a Netflix movie on your mobile is going to be a serious battery killer.
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I do so love it when posters here make claims like the above as some type of factoid that prevent someone access to something.
In the 80's and early 90's I was neither a shareholder, or a board member, or an employee, yet had ample access to both XEROX PARC and Apple engineers.
So what, exactly, is your point?
Yeah, I just re-read my post, I didn't intent for it to sound obnoxious, my bad.
Wkikpedia:
"...Jobs had negotiated a visit to see the Xerox Alto computer and Smalltalk development tools in exchange for Apple stock options."
Yeah, I just re-read my post, I didn't intent for it to sound obnoxious, my bad.
Wkikpedia:
"...Jobs had negotiated a visit to see the Xerox Alto computer and Smalltalk development tools in exchange for Apple stock options."
Hey, It's OK. I been known to get carried away a time or a hundred.
BTW, how sad is it that on the Windows side of my current working life I am forced into daily use of a proprietary program that was written in Smalltalk? I think that of all the people I know, maybe me and two other guys could actually fix the program if we had to update it!
But I would call that a successful copy, and I believe MS would agree, since it has earned them billions and billions of dollars.
Wow, MS copying Apple would be such a new thing for them! The funny thing is, MS has never successfully copied Apple, they would be better off trying to invent something themselves. But then, maybe not. Just stick to making inept copies of Apple products.
You don't help any objective argument you might have by starting out your post by calling people "fanboys" for not liking one product and preferring another.
Dang it, Solipsism. You beat me to the punch again.
I was writing an Opus in response to this, on how I don't hate Microsoft products near as much as I hate the way the company uses it blatant strong arm tactics to gain market share. I witnessed plenty of such tactics back in the late 80's and early 90's while showing products at various MacWorld venues not to still have a bad taste in my mouth from the experience.
Back then there was competition and there was the Microsoft Gestapo.
I prefer competition.
So forgive me if I approach everything Microsoft does with a very well earned, heavy dose of skepticism. As for the "fanboy" comment? Around these parts you have to earn that title, Mister!
Has anyone ever actually seen a Zune in the wild? Yeah, I didn't think so.
It was super exciting... seriously. It was like seeing some crazy rare animal. I pointed it out to my wife. We couldn't help just staring at it, wondering how it came to be.
So, between my wife, my friends and I, we have spotted exactly 1. I feel kind of lucky.
It was like seeing some crazy rare animal. I pointed it out to my wife. We couldn't help just staring at it, wondering how it came to be.
Are you referring to the Zune or the owner of the Zune?
Pardon my confusion, but they do seem to be equally rare.
I teach out in the Seattle area and I rarely see Zunes except for the kids that have parents that work for Microsoft. I do think the UI for Zune (2.0) actually looks better than the iPod Classic UI, but since I have purchased the iPhone, neither interface looks very impressive to me.
Here is what I usually see at our school:
MOST POPULAR BY FAR - iPod Nano - so many of these, it's incredible
iPod Classic - not so much since the iPod Touch came out. Mostly older generations. I imagine apple is going to can this one in about a year.
iPod Touch - these numbers increase all the time. The browser and schools starting to add wi-fi have made this one very useful for students. You can find out something without having to run to the computer lab.
iPhone - I see a lot of 1st generation iPhones popping up. I just assume Dad bought the new one and gave the old one to their son or daughter.
iPod Shuffles and Zunes - I see about the equal number of these. It's kind of sad because I think PMPs have definitely become a social status thing, so a lot of kids that don't have the cutting edge technology seem to try and hide them. I think that's why I rarely see Zunes or shuffles out in the open. I may just not see the Shuffle because there is no need to take it out of their pockets. Who knows/cares.
I definitely have not seen a new shuffle in the wild, but it's practically invisible.
Some very good insights/observations there.
I wish Apple fanboys ......
I'm not trying to start an argument here ......
Yeah, sure. That gives you immediate credibility in this forum.
Are you referring to the Zune or the owner of the Zune?
Pardon my confusion, but they do seem to be equally rare.
Ouch. That's very harsh.
Not.
Apple has better products already, and the success of their business over the last several quarters reflects that fact. What was your point exactly?
For the time being, Apple has a 70%+ market share in portable music players with iPods and a 10%-15% (?) market share in smart phones with iPhones.
But never dismiss Microsoft which has the money, engineers and market share to beat Apple if they want to.
More specifically, the iPod and iPhone must face competition from Google Android, Nokia Symbian, Palm Web OS and Microsoft Windows Mobile devices. Together, these alternatives are bound to achieve a colossal market share.
Apple is repeating the mistakes it made more than 20 years ago in:
1- refusing to license the Mac OS to computer builders;
2- selling Mac computers with a 50% profit margin, instead of 20%.
By dismissing Microsoft's efforts to produce a Zune HD, AppleInsider reminds me of Apple's own attitude 20 years ago when it dismissed Microsoft DOS as a potential threat to Apple. When Microsoft launched Windows 95 with a graphical user interface, Apple was slaughtered.
If Mac OS X is the gem Apple says that it is (and I believe that it is really good), then Apple should license it to earn money for its efforts instead of squandering its most important asset.
The same holds true for the iPhone OS. License it if it is so good (and I think that it is quite good), and don't squander the opportunity once again. Because, if Apple won't license the iPhone OS, others are going to write their own cell phone software (and Apple will not make a penny from it).
Is there anyone at AppleInsider who believes that no one, absolutely no one, can write a good cell phone system software to compete with the iPhone OS?
wow! ipods play radio, do copy paste, video recording & iphone got a front cam too
which windows cannot do. so it's actually cool & sexy
Has anyone ever actually seen a Zune in the wild? Yeah, I didn't think so.
I saw a good-looking girl on the subway with a Zune, and it kind of caught me off guard. Then she started picking her nose in a really blatant and disgusting fashion, and I had to look away. I'm not even kidding.
it's true that apple is 2 years ahead of microsoft or even 10 years
wow! ipods play radio, do copy paste, video recording & iphone got a front cam too
which windows cannot do. so it's actually cool & sexy
Yes. Lists of features are all that distinguish one product from another, which is why the iPhone has been such a dreadful failure.