Yes. I have a diploma in Industrial Design and have worked as a designer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster
... You are actually saying that Apple make things simple and good looking, not doing bad design is something completely different....
See, now you're completely off the rails in only your second sentence. I never said or even implied anything of the sort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster
AppleTV not having an on/off switch is bad design.
Airport Extreme having a power cable that comes out with the slightest touch is bad design.
MacBook Pro with a lid that does not close flush so when it is in a bag any old shit can get through the gap and scratch things up is bad design.
MacBook Pro lid that only opens just past halfway so you cannot see the screen while standing above it, or hunched over it is bad design.
MacBook's and iPhones made from cheap plastic that cracks is bad design.
Making products so thin that things overheat and you can fry eggs on them is bad design.
Most of these things are either not actually "bad design," or they are things that are bad design IF TRUE. 1, 4, and 5 are particularly NOT "bad design" and 2, 3 and 6 are gross exaggerations of the facts. In general, you confuse manufacturing flaws with "bad design."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster
How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.
I would suggest you just don't know much about design if you think that Apple's primary purpose is to make things "look good" at "the expense of useability."
Where are the tablet naysayers now? Where are the arguments? With each passing moment they get quieter and quieter as the mystery iDevice draws nearer and nearer to release.
*cues original terminator theme music*
Soon you all will have to bow down before its glory!
Mactouch FTW!
........Hey its Monday in the office and I'm bored already.
Well, if you're talking about the original tablet naysayers on this board, they've died of old age, mostly.
I know, I know... But I really don't think iPhone OS really counts in the same sense. It's debatable, sure.
But he was talking about something like OSX Home Basic, not OSX Mobile (like iPhone OS), if you follow me.
I don't claim any authoritative knowledge about this, mind you; I just don't see that happening. Apple seems very, very attached to keeping OSX one size fits all.
No I wasn't talking about something like that. And I have no idea where you get that from my comment!
There main profit sector and target audience is high end consumers
There is two consumer distrobutions of OS X the PC(MacBook and Mac Pro etc) and mobile (iPod and Phone)
They have ordered lots (cant remember how many appleinsider stated) 10" touchscreens
They have ordered 3.2MP camera sensors
They have a pocket sized PC (the iPod or iPhone)
Small PC (Mac Mini)
They have a ultra portable (Air), portable(MacBook), and desktop replacement laptop (MacBook Pro)
They have a desktop computer(iMac)
They have a professional upgradeable PC (Mac Pro)
Have deals with many mobile carriers including LARGE data packages (UK is truly unlimited data)
They like GPS, tethering, intellgent systems
App store/iTunes with movies etc is doing well and expanding rapidly
It has to have that "wow" factor and something which sets apple apart from the rest of the market
It will be more expensive than most other equivalent products
iPods are reaching saturation point throughout (well I still seem to be aquiring more but I dont think everyone is as bad as me LOL)
They have purchased a chip manufacture
Whats big industry currently?
eBooks
Netbooks
Touch Screen
App Stores with little guys being big developers
Connectivity
Multiple core and differnt types of cores (CPU/GPU)
So what do I think?
The missing price points in macs range - a £450 laptop or £2000 laptop which seems more realistic as we all know apple? £2k Hell I havent seen what it is but I know I want one. My guess something to act as a eBook/ultra portable pc. The touch screen is just them showing off there flair of style and ability. This will be an impressive bit of kit. However I do expect it will be like the MacBook Air, stunted but brilliant. What wouldnt surprise me is if it has the gaming features of the iPod/Phone but the OS from a full PC. Sounds a bit OTT I know but thats the two sectors apple are trying to break into. Look at the iPhone Exchange for business, games for the "kids" no idea what apple are actually doing but thats my thoughts.
In my opinion, the best netbook is a netbook sized tablet. Get rid of the keyboard and make the thing smaller and lighter. It is "net book" after all and trying to write an essay using that small keyboard is not better than writing it on a touch keyboard. However, it will probably have a learning curve and will increase whining volume on many internet forums. I just hope Apple don't follow MS in including a starters OS.
I agree, the virtual on-screen keyboards are better from a usability standpoint than physical keyboards which can't be contextual. I like, for example, how on the iPhone you get a keyboard with ".com" and the @ symbol when typing in email addresses or URLs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman
How about a transparent double sided touch screen? Something like this?
It'll be interesting to see how where this technology shows up in an Apple product. It's very "Minority Report."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphster
How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.
I don't know of any product that is designed perfectly, nearly everything will have some kind of flaw or imperfection. But to say all Apple products are badly designed is no different than someone saying they are all perfect. Apple does a very good job of designing products that have style and improve usability, even though they have made a bunch of missteps along the way just like any company that tries to innovate and push the envelope.
The Mars landers had some imperfections too, but, I don't think anyone would describe them as badly designed. Anything made by humans will not be perfect.
That's right. It's not your god given right to have a product that does what you want, unless you can make it yourself. If Apple decides that it can't make the kind of money it wants to make if it makes the product you're asking for, then you're out of luck. Sorry!
And if Apple decides to make a piece of sheet you buy it because Apple tells you that you need it and you buy it and eat it regardless. And I'm out of luck? You're out of mind and soul.
Now we're talking. Give me an 11" Air- I will buy it today- RIGHT NOW.
actually I think that 13 inches isn't an issue. anything more than that would be, but 13 is right on that border of small enough to be portable but large enough you won't go blind.
my issue is things like improving the processor speed, hard drive space, battery life etc. I actually kind of like the idea of using the iphone OS rather than desktop and really making it a NETbook. because the software on the phone is getting pretty good in terms of variety etc. and if they based it off the iphone OS it would seem like cake to put in a built in 3g antenna (unlocked preferred) for folks to use as an alt form of 'wireless'
And what device is that- that runs iPhoto and/or Aperture?
In my view there is simply no way that a 10-inch screen would provide the necessary real estate to allow for proper editing of photos, movies, etc.
As far as I see it, there are two choices. One is spend the money on a Macbook or Macbook Pro and live with the bigger, more expensive form factor OR forget about doing video and photo work on a more portable and hence less expensive device, choosing instead to use the device in question for other purposes. A decent-size touchscreen device that fits in between the Touch/iPhone and a regular Apple laptop could come in handy and at worst would be a very cool product. I just don't think it's likely Apple would make the mistake of trying to deliver a fully-functioning laptop using that form factor. It would have to be good for doing more demanding work and it can't be on account of the screen would be too small and with performance comes hits to battery life, etc. which would cause the machine to be less enjoyable to use.
I use my Touch to surf the net, play games, access assorted media, check out emails, schedule appointments, and so on. A bigger screen would make it more enjoyable to do all of those things and really that's what the device should be designed for. Editing photos and movies, etc. needs to be done on a product with a bigger screen and a lot more horsepower. I could see using the device to display photos and even show home movies but not to be the unit that you use to manipulate those items in any significant fashion. Just because the device wouldn't do the latter doesn't mean it should be dismissed as too limiting. It is what it is. In short we're not talking a desktop replacement but something rather that can effectively work in tandem with a good desktop system. What's wrong with that?
I don't know of any product that is designed perfectly, nearly everything will have some kind of flaw or imperfection. But to say all Apple products are badly designed is no different than someone saying they are all perfect. Apple does a very good job of designing products that have style and improve usability, even though they have made a bunch of missteps along the way just like any company that tries to innovate and push the envelope.
The Mars landers had some imperfections too, but, I don't think anyone would describe them as badly designed. Anything made by humans will not be perfect.
That is a fine answer and I take no issue with what you have said.
My post was in reply to a statement that said "Apple don't do bad design" which is clearly a ridiculous thing to say.
I too am an Apple customer with around something in the region of $8000 worth of purchases in the last 2 years. I have no axe to grind with Apple, my beef is purely with some of the idiots who frequent these boards claiming that Apple can do not wrong, that any other manufacturers product is automatically inferior and that Windows is crap.
Apple is a corporate company who's only main goal is to make as much money as possible, Just like anybody else, even Microsoft. While many of their products are good, they are not automatically vastly superior to anybody else. I own other products, I own a Dell. There are some things that others do better than Apple.
Yes. I have a diploma in Industrial Design and have worked as a designer.
See, now you're completely off the rails in only your second sentence. I never said or even implied anything of the sort.
Most of these things are either not actually "bad design," or they are things that are bad design IF TRUE. 1, 4, and 5 are particularly NOT "bad design" and 2, 3 and 6 are gross exaggerations of the facts. In general, you confuse manufacturing flaws with "bad design."
I would suggest you just don't know much about design if you think that Apple's primary purpose is to make things "look good" at "the expense of useability."
So you liked the hockey puck mouse and the MM? Two of probably the most uncomfortable mice I've personally (and I'm also guessing, others) used. And that's ignoring that the MM breaks down after several months of use.
Designing a device that is supposed to fit in your hand that doesn't really fit in your hand (the puck mouse) or another that fits like a squished egg are bad design.
Apple just shouldn't do mice at all. Just because it says designed in California, made in China on the bottom of the device, doesn't automatically make it a good design.
So you liked the hockey puck mouse and the MM? Two of probably the most uncomfortable mice I've personally (and I'm also guessing, others) used. And that's ignoring that the MM breaks down after several months of use.
i never used the puck mouse for an extended period of time, but the MM is a great mouse - i use one 9 hours a day. no ergonomic issues for me at all, and the roller-ball, whilst it does get stuck after a few months, is easy to fix.
This is a hybrid tablet/netbook. Think of a book with the two insides as multitouch screens. WiFi, 3G, etc. Can be used as a book (potrait) or as a conventional keyboard/screen (landscape). ...For tablet mode, it folds (pivots) in a way that it becomes a one-sided tablet. This would be cool.
Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.
Nothing's impossible but a small touch tablet doesn't have the resolution to run OS-X.
The whole point of the iPhone GUI is that it is optimised for touch. Even such tricks (described in Apple's patents), as making the min/max buttons on OS-X desktop windows automatically get bigger when your finger gets close to the screen, are clunky adaptations at best and hugely complicate the interface. What's the advantage of sticking with a familiar (desktop OS-X) interface when you have to add another layer of complication on top just to use it?
The iPhone interface would scale easily and is similarly familiar but with no need for the extra layer. The advantage of using one OS over another is usually to leverage software, it would make sense to leverage the iPhone software more than the desktop software.
The tablet would also have to use the infra-red based hand and finger detection patent Apple published recently, to even make it *possible* to put OS-X desktop on a tablet, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it IMO.
The tablet/netbook/MacTouch would run something in between iPhone OS 3.0 and [Snow]Leopard. Similar model for apps from App Store, etc. It will *not* have [Snow]Leopard functionality. Steve would not allow this to happen because of the low specs of the tablet/netbook/MacTouch - would not deliver any good [Snow]Leopard experience.
Obviously there is a market for a Mac netbook. It's just comes down to price, and I fear that if it is priced reasonably, Apple will restrict the device in silly arbitrary ways.
... I fear that if it is priced reasonably, Apple will restrict the device in silly arbitrary ways...
It will be restricted no doubt ~ think of it as a higher-end iPhone 3G rather than a low-end Mac. No full [Snow]Leopard. That's what I think.
Even worse, possibly, it comes with an AT&T plan because it has 3G built in. Something weird like that to do with the telco because it has 3G built into the netbook.
App Store model to download apps and so-on.
So very likely to be "restricted", this tablet/netbook/MacTouch.
Basically ownership of this tablet/netbook/MacTouch will be "subsidised" by signing on to the telco's 3g-for-this-device plan. In light of the economy, contracts and subsidies are the way to go, while for the Mac Apple will continue its existing revenue/profit model.
In terms of scaling out across the world the device would be expanded from existing iPhone 3G relationships with telcos.
Apple has to position this MacTouch so that iPod, iPhone, Mac lines remain non-cannibalised.
Their App Store model and iPhone OS 3.0+ model is strong enough to handle something like MacTouch OS as a new system for developers. Such as editing word documents, etc. on the MacTouch.
Comments
Do you actually know what good design is?
Yes. I have a diploma in Industrial Design and have worked as a designer.
... You are actually saying that Apple make things simple and good looking, not doing bad design is something completely different....
See, now you're completely off the rails in only your second sentence. I never said or even implied anything of the sort.
Most of these things are either not actually "bad design," or they are things that are bad design IF TRUE. 1, 4, and 5 are particularly NOT "bad design" and 2, 3 and 6 are gross exaggerations of the facts. In general, you confuse manufacturing flaws with "bad design."
How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.
I would suggest you just don't know much about design if you think that Apple's primary purpose is to make things "look good" at "the expense of useability."
Where are the tablet naysayers now? Where are the arguments? With each passing moment they get quieter and quieter as the mystery iDevice draws nearer and nearer to release.
*cues original terminator theme music*
Soon you all will have to bow down before its glory!
Mactouch FTW!
........Hey its Monday in the office and I'm bored already.
Well, if you're talking about the original tablet naysayers on this board, they've died of old age, mostly.
I know, I know...
But he was talking about something like OSX Home Basic, not OSX Mobile (like iPhone OS), if you follow me.
I don't claim any authoritative knowledge about this, mind you; I just don't see that happening. Apple seems very, very attached to keeping OSX one size fits all.
No I wasn't talking about something like that. And I have no idea where you get that from my comment!
What do we know (from my minimal understanding):
There main profit sector and target audience is high end consumers
There is two consumer distrobutions of OS X the PC(MacBook and Mac Pro etc) and mobile (iPod and Phone)
They have ordered lots (cant remember how many appleinsider stated) 10" touchscreens
They have ordered 3.2MP camera sensors
They have a pocket sized PC (the iPod or iPhone)
Small PC (Mac Mini)
They have a ultra portable (Air), portable(MacBook), and desktop replacement laptop (MacBook Pro)
They have a desktop computer(iMac)
They have a professional upgradeable PC (Mac Pro)
Have deals with many mobile carriers including LARGE data packages (UK is truly unlimited data)
They like GPS, tethering, intellgent systems
App store/iTunes with movies etc is doing well and expanding rapidly
It has to have that "wow" factor and something which sets apple apart from the rest of the market
It will be more expensive than most other equivalent products
iPods are reaching saturation point throughout (well I still seem to be aquiring more but I dont think everyone is as bad as me LOL)
They have purchased a chip manufacture
Whats big industry currently?
eBooks
Netbooks
Touch Screen
App Stores with little guys being big developers
Connectivity
Multiple core and differnt types of cores (CPU/GPU)
So what do I think?
The missing price points in macs range - a £450 laptop or £2000 laptop which seems more realistic as we all know apple? £2k Hell I havent seen what it is but I know I want one. My guess something to act as a eBook/ultra portable pc. The touch screen is just them showing off there flair of style and ability. This will be an impressive bit of kit. However I do expect it will be like the MacBook Air, stunted but brilliant. What wouldnt surprise me is if it has the gaming features of the iPod/Phone but the OS from a full PC. Sounds a bit OTT I know but thats the two sectors apple are trying to break into. Look at the iPhone Exchange for business, games for the "kids" no idea what apple are actually doing but thats my thoughts.
In my opinion, the best netbook is a netbook sized tablet. Get rid of the keyboard and make the thing smaller and lighter. It is "net book" after all and trying to write an essay using that small keyboard is not better than writing it on a touch keyboard. However, it will probably have a learning curve and will increase whining volume on many internet forums. I just hope Apple don't follow MS in including a starters OS.
I agree, the virtual on-screen keyboards are better from a usability standpoint than physical keyboards which can't be contextual. I like, for example, how on the iPhone you get a keyboard with ".com" and the @ symbol when typing in email addresses or URLs.
How about a transparent double sided touch screen? Something like this?
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...en_panels.html
It'll be interesting to see how where this technology shows up in an Apple product. It's very "Minority Report."
How anyones can make a statement like that is beyond me, the level of fanboyism sometimes is just pathetic. Apple's primary purpose is to make things look good, often at the expense of usability. This my friend, whichever way you want to look at it is bad design.
I don't know of any product that is designed perfectly, nearly everything will have some kind of flaw or imperfection. But to say all Apple products are badly designed is no different than someone saying they are all perfect. Apple does a very good job of designing products that have style and improve usability, even though they have made a bunch of missteps along the way just like any company that tries to innovate and push the envelope.
The Mars landers had some imperfections too, but, I don't think anyone would describe them as badly designed. Anything made by humans will not be perfect.
Apple will deliver, no doubt- but must you bash one of the biggest innovators in consumer electronics history in the process?
that's laughable. you bash apple in virtually every thread you make an appearance in and yet someone has a go at sony and you harp up against it?
We have no idea what Snow Leopard will bring to the table. Besides, Macs come with special discs that only work on that family of Macs.
Maybe Snow Leopard will have touch support built in?
i wouldn't be surprised to see touch technology coming to desktop OS & applications on the mac.
that's laughable. you bash apple in virtually every thread you make an appearance in and yet someone has a go at sony and you harp up against it?
Not true- totally unbiased and proud Apple owner here.
I just don't drink the Kool-Aid.
That's right. It's not your god given right to have a product that does what you want, unless you can make it yourself. If Apple decides that it can't make the kind of money it wants to make if it makes the product you're asking for, then you're out of luck. Sorry!
And if Apple decides to make a piece of sheet you buy it because Apple tells you that you need it and you buy it and eat it regardless. And I'm out of luck? You're out of mind and soul.
Now we're talking. Give me an 11" Air- I will buy it today- RIGHT NOW.
actually I think that 13 inches isn't an issue. anything more than that would be, but 13 is right on that border of small enough to be portable but large enough you won't go blind.
my issue is things like improving the processor speed, hard drive space, battery life etc. I actually kind of like the idea of using the iphone OS rather than desktop and really making it a NETbook. because the software on the phone is getting pretty good in terms of variety etc. and if they based it off the iphone OS it would seem like cake to put in a built in 3g antenna (unlocked preferred) for folks to use as an alt form of 'wireless'
Not true- totally unbiased and proud Apple owner here.
I just don't drink the Kool-Aid.
just the pocari sweat from the vending machines in sony hq, tokyo?
And what device is that- that runs iPhoto and/or Aperture?
In my view there is simply no way that a 10-inch screen would provide the necessary real estate to allow for proper editing of photos, movies, etc.
As far as I see it, there are two choices. One is spend the money on a Macbook or Macbook Pro and live with the bigger, more expensive form factor OR forget about doing video and photo work on a more portable and hence less expensive device, choosing instead to use the device in question for other purposes. A decent-size touchscreen device that fits in between the Touch/iPhone and a regular Apple laptop could come in handy and at worst would be a very cool product. I just don't think it's likely Apple would make the mistake of trying to deliver a fully-functioning laptop using that form factor. It would have to be good for doing more demanding work and it can't be on account of the screen would be too small and with performance comes hits to battery life, etc. which would cause the machine to be less enjoyable to use.
I use my Touch to surf the net, play games, access assorted media, check out emails, schedule appointments, and so on. A bigger screen would make it more enjoyable to do all of those things and really that's what the device should be designed for. Editing photos and movies, etc. needs to be done on a product with a bigger screen and a lot more horsepower. I could see using the device to display photos and even show home movies but not to be the unit that you use to manipulate those items in any significant fashion. Just because the device wouldn't do the latter doesn't mean it should be dismissed as too limiting. It is what it is. In short we're not talking a desktop replacement but something rather that can effectively work in tandem with a good desktop system. What's wrong with that?
I don't know of any product that is designed perfectly, nearly everything will have some kind of flaw or imperfection. But to say all Apple products are badly designed is no different than someone saying they are all perfect. Apple does a very good job of designing products that have style and improve usability, even though they have made a bunch of missteps along the way just like any company that tries to innovate and push the envelope.
The Mars landers had some imperfections too, but, I don't think anyone would describe them as badly designed. Anything made by humans will not be perfect.
That is a fine answer and I take no issue with what you have said.
My post was in reply to a statement that said "Apple don't do bad design" which is clearly a ridiculous thing to say.
I too am an Apple customer with around something in the region of $8000 worth of purchases in the last 2 years. I have no axe to grind with Apple, my beef is purely with some of the idiots who frequent these boards claiming that Apple can do not wrong, that any other manufacturers product is automatically inferior and that Windows is crap.
Apple is a corporate company who's only main goal is to make as much money as possible, Just like anybody else, even Microsoft. While many of their products are good, they are not automatically vastly superior to anybody else. I own other products, I own a Dell. There are some things that others do better than Apple.
Yes. I have a diploma in Industrial Design and have worked as a designer.
See, now you're completely off the rails in only your second sentence. I never said or even implied anything of the sort.
Most of these things are either not actually "bad design," or they are things that are bad design IF TRUE. 1, 4, and 5 are particularly NOT "bad design" and 2, 3 and 6 are gross exaggerations of the facts. In general, you confuse manufacturing flaws with "bad design."
I would suggest you just don't know much about design if you think that Apple's primary purpose is to make things "look good" at "the expense of useability."
So you liked the hockey puck mouse and the MM? Two of probably the most uncomfortable mice I've personally (and I'm also guessing, others) used. And that's ignoring that the MM breaks down after several months of use.
Designing a device that is supposed to fit in your hand that doesn't really fit in your hand (the puck mouse) or another that fits like a squished egg are bad design.
Apple just shouldn't do mice at all. Just because it says designed in California, made in China on the bottom of the device, doesn't automatically make it a good design.
So you liked the hockey puck mouse and the MM? Two of probably the most uncomfortable mice I've personally (and I'm also guessing, others) used. And that's ignoring that the MM breaks down after several months of use.
i never used the puck mouse for an extended period of time, but the MM is a great mouse - i use one 9 hours a day. no ergonomic issues for me at all, and the roller-ball, whilst it does get stuck after a few months, is easy to fix.
....
*cues original terminator theme music*
...
Nice touch
Apple will never make something with a "slide-out" keyboard. It's just bad design and Apple doesn't do bad design.
Nothing's impossible but a small touch tablet doesn't have the resolution to run OS-X.
The whole point of the iPhone GUI is that it is optimised for touch. Even such tricks (described in Apple's patents), as making the min/max buttons on OS-X desktop windows automatically get bigger when your finger gets close to the screen, are clunky adaptations at best and hugely complicate the interface. What's the advantage of sticking with a familiar (desktop OS-X) interface when you have to add another layer of complication on top just to use it?
The iPhone interface would scale easily and is similarly familiar but with no need for the extra layer. The advantage of using one OS over another is usually to leverage software, it would make sense to leverage the iPhone software more than the desktop software.
The tablet would also have to use the infra-red based hand and finger detection patent Apple published recently, to even make it *possible* to put OS-X desktop on a tablet, and there doesn't seem to be a good reason for it IMO.
The tablet/netbook/MacTouch would run something in between iPhone OS 3.0 and [Snow]Leopard. Similar model for apps from App Store, etc. It will *not* have [Snow]Leopard functionality. Steve would not allow this to happen because of the low specs of the tablet/netbook/MacTouch - would not deliver any good [Snow]Leopard experience.
... I fear that if it is priced reasonably, Apple will restrict the device in silly arbitrary ways...
It will be restricted no doubt ~ think of it as a higher-end iPhone 3G rather than a low-end Mac. No full [Snow]Leopard. That's what I think.
Even worse, possibly, it comes with an AT&T plan because it has 3G built in. Something weird like that to do with the telco because it has 3G built into the netbook.
App Store model to download apps and so-on.
So very likely to be "restricted", this tablet/netbook/MacTouch.
Basically ownership of this tablet/netbook/MacTouch will be "subsidised" by signing on to the telco's 3g-for-this-device plan. In light of the economy, contracts and subsidies are the way to go, while for the Mac Apple will continue its existing revenue/profit model.
In terms of scaling out across the world the device would be expanded from existing iPhone 3G relationships with telcos.
Apple has to position this MacTouch so that iPod, iPhone, Mac lines remain non-cannibalised.
Their App Store model and iPhone OS 3.0+ model is strong enough to handle something like MacTouch OS as a new system for developers. Such as editing word documents, etc. on the MacTouch.